WELS creating their own Bible (and one other question)?

PreachersWife2004

by his wounds we are healed
Site Supporter
May 15, 2007
38,590
4,179
50
Land O' 10,000 Lakes
✟84,030.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Well, looks like the WELS is really considering adopting the NIV 2011...

can you source this for me? I asked my husband about it and he doesn't know anything about it and he said from his understanding at least in our area and neck of the woods we're going to keep using the 1984 version until the bibles get ratty. But as far as I know, every pastor in this district dislikes the new NIV.

I also wish we'd change the name of the thread. WELS Lutherans aren't "creating" their own bible...:p
 
Upvote 0

Studeclunker

Senior Member
Dec 26, 2006
2,325
162
People's Socialist Soviet Republic Of California
✟10,816.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
can you source this for me? I asked my husband about it and he doesn't know anything about it and he said from his understanding at least in our area and neck of the woods we're going to keep using the 1984 version until the bibles get ratty. But as far as I know, every pastor in this district dislikes the new NIV.

I also wish we'd change the name of the thread. WELS Lutherans aren't "creating" their own bible...:p

Personally, I detest the NIV in general, refuse to use it, refuse to read from it. Also, I don't understand why we have to keep revising our bibles every few years. All this amounts to is a publisher wanting to sell more bibles and therefore reap more profit. The whole process is driven by that age old sin; namely greed.
 
Upvote 0

Melethiel

Miserere mei, Domine
Site Supporter
Jun 8, 2005
27,266
940
34
Ohio
✟77,093.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
can you source this for me? I asked my husband about it and he doesn't know anything about it and he said from his understanding at least in our area and neck of the woods we're going to keep using the 1984 version until the bibles get ratty. But as far as I know, every pastor in this district dislikes the new NIV.

I also wish we'd change the name of the thread. WELS Lutherans aren't "creating" their own bible...:p
That was what was announced in the WELS Connection video on Sunday. Granted, they didn't say that it's definite, but it looks like it's in the running.
 
Upvote 0

PreachersWife2004

by his wounds we are healed
Site Supporter
May 15, 2007
38,590
4,179
50
Land O' 10,000 Lakes
✟84,030.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
That was what was announced in the WELS Connection video on Sunday. Granted, they didn't say that it's definite, but it looks like it's in the running.

That would be...unfortunate.
 
Upvote 0

filosofer

Senior Veteran
Feb 8, 2002
4,752
290
Visit site
✟6,913.00
Faith
Lutheran
Personally, I detest the NIV in general, refuse to use it, refuse to read from it. Also, I don't understand why we have to keep revising our bibles every few years. All this amounts to is a publisher wanting to sell more bibles and therefore reap more profit. The whole process is driven by that age old sin; namely greed.

The change from the Church being the primary deposior, translator, etc. happened about 200 years ago. The first shift was the rise of the mission societies, parachurch organizations. Later it shifted again to the academic community. So basically for the last 150 years, those two groups, outside the direct authority of the Church, became holders of the keys (so to speak). Unfortunately, the Church (not just a denomination) has reluctantly pulled back.

 
Upvote 0

twin.spin

Trust the LORD and not on your own understanding
May 1, 2010
797
266
✟72,766.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
The idea of the WELS producing its own bible is not dead. Its still in research. How likely I do not know.

I suppose one could say "never say never" about WELS producing its own version. But if it did, it would need to appeal to more than just the WELS consumer.

And if it were to, WELS may have to go against the preferences of some over the other when it comes to practical application vs strict word to word adherence......... so who knows if it would ever get outside a committee.

They just might vote to vote on it later......:wave:
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jim47

Heaven Bound
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2004
12,393
825
76
Michigan
✟46,637.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Yes, you are quite right. Its still too early to know what will happen. But of they put it up to a vote for the members, I and many others will vote for us to make a new bible agreeing with all our teachings, or you could say, what God has taught before so many so called schollars decided to make changes to what He said.
 
Upvote 0

RobG

Newbie
Feb 22, 2012
8
2
✟8,638.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
I realize I am a bit late here, but...

Twin.spin said it well.

______________________________
Mary being perpetual virginity... based on the fact that:

  1. we have Jesus being conceived before "they came together"
  2. we have Matthew acknowledging Jesus' mother and brothers
  3. we have an unknown person acknowledging Jesus' mother and brothers
  4. we have Jesus going to his hometown and the people in the synagogue acknowledging Jesus' brothers by name and reference to sisters
  5. we have Paul making the distinction of Jesus appearing to James and then to all the Apostles
  6. we have Paul making the distinction seeing no other apostles, but James the Lord's brother (when most times believers\apostles where referred to "brothers)
  7. Jude making the connection with James being a brother Jesus
I would conclude that the evidence is more than circumstantial that Mary did not remained a virgin after Jesus' birth
NOTE: Scripture addresses were removed above because I have a plugin in my browser which turns them into links and the forum will not let me post links.

Having said that, the real question in my mind is where did the teaching of Mary's perpetual virginity come from in the first place?

In Roman Catholicism, it is taught that Mary was chosen to be the mother of God because she was without sin. Not in the sense that all of her sins were forgiven, but in the sense that she was perfect (never having sinned). Roman Catholicism does not view the forgiven sinner as having been perfected in Christ (spiritually), therefore (they concluded), that Jesus could not be born without sin unless Mary was without sin.

In keeping with this thinking, it is apparently sinful for a married man and woman to have sexual relations within the bonds of marriage, I guess (or at least if you have previously given birth to the Son of God). I am not trying to be sarcastic, here - just making the point.

Carry the line of thinking that Mary had to be without sin (in order for Jesus to be without sin) to its logical conclusion and the logic quickly falls apart. If Mary needed to be without sin in order for Jesus to be without sin, then wouldn't Mary's parents have had to be without sin also (in order for Mary to be without sin)? Then, if her parents needed to be without sin, both sets of grandparents would have had to be as well, and so on. Eventually you end up with a vast multitude of people without sin.

Back to my original question. Where did this thinking come from in the first place? It came from false theology. There really should be no need to ask the question.

This is important because some have said, "it is adiaphra," but it is not. Bear in mind adiaphra and fundamental doctrine (those doctrines which directly affect our salvation) are two different things. If it weren't for the false teachings of the Catholic church on this issue, no one would ever go to the text of Scripture and come up with anything other than the fact that Jesus had siblings. To do so is to impose man's thinking onto the text (reading into the text - eisegesis) rather than reading from the text (exegesis). In other words, do we take God at his Word or are we willing to let man's false thinking affect how we view God's clear message and meaning?

As twin.spin said, the evidence is more than circumstantial. God's word is clear. Do we believe God or the Roman Catholic church?

In case you are wondering - yes, I am a former Catholic and most of my (and my wife's) family are either Catholic or heavily influenced by the false teachings of Catholicism. To the best of our knowledge, most (if not all) of our relatives think they will get to heaven based upon their good works. So, again, taking God at his Word (or not) is no small issue. It brings with it eternal consequences. A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough. From small errors, major heresies grow.

In Christ,

Rob G
 
Upvote 0

bach90

Evangelical Catholic
Feb 4, 2011
446
19
USA
✟8,183.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
The Confessions teach Mary's perpetual virginity.

SA I iv: That the Son became man in this manner, that He was conceived, without the cooperation of man, by the Holy Ghost, and was born of the pure, holy and always Virgin Mary

Martin Luther, John Gerhard, CFW Walther, and Franz Pieper all believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary. Going back further it was believed by Origen, Augustine, Eusebius, and Athanasius. It was believed by Christians all the way from the 1st century on. It's supported in Scripture. In addition to the fact the brothers is often a general term in the NT, Luke 2 strongly implies that Jesus was the only child of Mary. All the reformers, even the Calvinists believed in Mary's virginity. It is Biblical, it is confessional, it is historical.
 
Upvote 0

PreachersWife2004

by his wounds we are healed
Site Supporter
May 15, 2007
38,590
4,179
50
Land O' 10,000 Lakes
✟84,030.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
The Confessions teach Mary's perpetual virginity.

SA I iv: That the Son became man in this manner, that He was conceived, without the cooperation of man, by the Holy Ghost, and was born of the pure, holy and always Virgin Mary

Martin Luther, John Gerhard, CFW Walther, and Franz Pieper all believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary. Going back further it was believed by Origen, Augustine, Eusebius, and Athanasius. It was believed by Christians all the way from the 1st century on. It's supported in Scripture. In addition to the fact the brothers is often a general term in the NT, Luke 2 strongly implies that Jesus was the only child of Mary. All the reformers, even the Calvinists believed in Mary's virginity. It is Biblical, it is confessional, it is historical.

It's adiaphora, but you make it sound as though it's sinful to believe something different than you believe.

I do not for one second believe that God decided to have Mary and Joseph marry and then not get to enjoy the fruits of being married. That would've been cruel for both of them. I believe she was a virgin when she got pregnant, but I do not believe she remained a virgin after that (physically speaking it's impossible that she remained a virgin since she popped a kid out).
 
Upvote 0

bach90

Evangelical Catholic
Feb 4, 2011
446
19
USA
✟8,183.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
It's adiaphora, but you make it sound as though it's sinful to believe something different than you believe.

I do not for one second believe that God decided to have Mary and Joseph marry and then not get to enjoy the fruits of being married. That would've been cruel for both of them. I believe she was a virgin when she got pregnant, but I do not believe she remained a virgin after that (physically speaking it's impossible that she remained a virgin since she popped a kid out).

I am not saying that it is sinful, but it is a new belief (even the radical Zwinglians held this belief). It's not until the enlightenment that Christians began saying that Mary wasn't a virgin for her entire life. The ancient belief is that Mary remained a virgin for her entire life, and this is what the Lutheran confessions and what the Scriptures teach.

AP XI 37 also teaches that virginity is the preferred state. I can't believe that the womb that bore my God and Redeemer could ever hold anything else. Would a holy man such as Our Lord's stepfather even approach such a vessel?

(I totally reject the nonsense about her Immaculate Conception though...nothing in that but papistic balderdash).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

filosofer

Senior Veteran
Feb 8, 2002
4,752
290
Visit site
✟6,913.00
Faith
Lutheran
I am not saying that it is sinful, but it is a new belief (even the radical Zwinglians held this belief). It's not until the enlightenment that Christians began saying that Mary wasn't a virgin for her entire life. The ancient belief is that Mary remained a virgin for her entire life, and this is what the Lutheran confessions and what the Scriptures teach.

But how ancient and how wide spread?

I can't believe that the womb that bore my God and Redeemer could ever hold anything else. Would a holy man such as Our Lord's stepfather even approach such a vessel?

So, if you can’t believe it, then it can’t happen? Why bother with marriage between Mary and Joseph? Would Joseph be a “husband” then in light of what Paul writes in 1 Cor. 7? Yes. Joseph would approach a holy vessel? Why not?

(I totally reject the nonsense about her Immaculate Conception though...nothing in that but papistic balderdash).

The “ancient church writings” about Mary being always virgin were not based on Scripture, but one particular thread of church fathers supporting that view; no different than the thread supporting the immaculate conception of Mary.

Where do you draw the line on speculation? Why is speculation acceptable regarding “always virgin” and not regarding immaculate conception of Mary?

 
Upvote 0

bach90

Evangelical Catholic
Feb 4, 2011
446
19
USA
✟8,183.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican

But how ancient and how wide spread?

As far as I know, Tertullian is the only ancient writer who did not teach this doctrine.



So, if you can’t believe it, then it can’t happen? Why bother with marriage between Mary and Joseph? Would Joseph be a “husband” then in light of what Paul writes in 1 Cor. 7? Yes. Joseph would approach a holy vessel? Why not?


I was drawing a parallel when a previous poster stated that she couldn't believe that God would allow Joseph and Mary to be married and be chaste. Obviously, my personal feelings have no bearing on the issue. In light of 1 Cor 7, Paul concedes that some people have to marry in order that they do not burn with passion. I don't see intercourse as being necessary for marriage, he really seems to be saying ok, perform the martial functions, but only if you must. He would rather Christians stay virgins (but never commands this). Virginity is also presented as a higher state in the Apology (AP XI 37-38).

The “ancient church writings” about Mary being always virgin were not based on Scripture, but one particular thread of church fathers supporting that view; no different than the thread supporting the immaculate conception of Mary.

Origen was pretty adamant about using Scriptures to support his view. He addresses it in his Commentary on Matthew. The term adelphos does not always mean immediate family, and the two examples of Jesus in the temple and John at the cross, to me, imply that she had no other biological children. And, like I've cited, the confessions teach Semper Virgo on the basis of Scripture.

Where do you draw the line on speculation? Why is speculation acceptable regarding “always virgin” and not regarding immaculate conception of Mary?

There is no clear passage of Scripture which refutes the doctrine of perpetual virginity, and there are passages which support this. However, Rom 3 indicts all of humanity as being with sin. Mary also clearly states her need of a savior (Lk 1:47).
.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums