Black Church Leaders: Gay Marriage "not a civil rights issue."

dies-l · Jun 1, 2012

chaz345 said:
It's a civil rights issue only if you beleive that sexual orientation is an inborn immutable trait. A point on which is far from settled scientifically speaking.

It seems to me that that point is rather widely accepted now, even among the anti-gay crowd. I have noticed the argument steadily shifting from "don't choose to be gay" to some version of "homosexuality is a sin issue that is particularly strong for some people, and these people just need to abstain just like an alcoholic should abstain from alcohol". The latter shows an acceptance of the notion of sexual orientation, but not sexual behavior, as an inborn immutable trait.

WilliamB · Jun 1, 2012

Rion said:
The NAACP stopped caring what the average black person thinks or wants years ago.

Thats a bold statement. I'm curious, just how you know what the average black person thinks or wants? :scratch:

kermit · Jun 1, 2012

Rion said:
The NAACP stopped caring what the average black person thinks or wants years ago.

Sub-group A agrees with me = they must be right

Sub-group B disagrees = cognative dissonance => B must not represent the main group = cognative dissonance resolved

I really love watching confirmation biases at work.

IMO, both groups represent what the average black person thinks. Many will say that it is comparable to the civil right movement. Many will say that it isn't. Your posts rests upon the notion that all people of group think alike which is ridiculous.

Archaeopteryx · Jun 1, 2012

chaz345 said:
It's a civil rights issue only if you beleive that sexual orientation is an inborn immutable trait. A point on which is far from settled scientifically speaking.

It's a civil rights issue regardless of people's opinion on that matter.

pennmark · Jun 1, 2012

Of course its not a civil rights issue. How could it be? Homosexuality is a sin.

Illuminaughty · Jun 1, 2012

How does the word "sin" negate the civil rights aspect?

dies-l · Jun 1, 2012

pennmark said:
Of course its not a civil rights issue. How could it be? Homosexuality is a sin.

Of course, there was a time in our history when many in the white church viewed blackness as the intrinsically connected with sin. They even had Bible verses that they could prooftext to support such nonsense. Turns out they were wrong and that racial equality is in fact a basic human rights issue. If current science is right in its claim that homosexuality is an intrinsic trait, then that would mean there is little difference between what you are saying now and what the racist church was saying in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

wanderingone · Jun 1, 2012

chaz345 said:
It's a civil rights issue only if you beleive that sexual orientation is an inborn immutable trait. A point on which is far from settled scientifically speaking.

Well then we definitely should remove religion from the classes protected under civil rights laws.

wanderingone · Jun 1, 2012

Why do we care if some black church leaders don't know what civil rights are?

BleedingHeart · Jun 1, 2012

kermit said:
Sub-group A agrees with me = they must be right

Sub-group B disagrees = cognative dissonance => B must not represent the main group = cognative dissonance resolved

I really love watching confirmation biases at work.

This.

Belk · Jun 1, 2012

chaz345 said:
It's a civil rights issue only if you beleive that sexual orientation is an inborn immutable trait. A point on which is far from settled scientifically speaking.

Civil and political rights are a class of rights that protect individuals' freedom from unwarranted infringement by governments and private organizations, and ensure one's ability to participate in the civil and political life of the state without discrimination or repression.
Civil and political rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No, nothing in there about it having to center around inborn immutable traits. Which is a good thing because if it was then there could never be a worry about civil rights based on religion.

Avniel · Jun 1, 2012

WilliamB said:
I wouldn't get your hopes up. To most people, gay marriage is a minor issue. Merely a distraction.

Not in a highly homophobic environment like the black community

conamer · Jun 1, 2012

Belk said:
The NAACP disagrees.

The NAACP's gay-marriage endorsement: Is black homophobia overstated? - The Week

Sure they finally do, there aren't about the "advancement of Colored people" but the advancement of liberalism.

conamer · Jun 1, 2012

kermit said:
Sub-group A agrees with me = they must be right

Sub-group B disagrees = cognative dissonance => B must not represent the main group = cognative dissonance resolved

I really love watching confirmation biases at work.

IMO, both groups represent what the average black person thinks. Many will say that it is comparable to the civil right movement. Many will say that it isn't. Your posts rests upon the notion that all people of group think alike which is ridiculous.

You can see individual pastors who reject homosexuality as a civil rights issue in the video. I don't see a group. You're right the NAACP doesn't all think alike. It's just the leaders toeing the line since Obama "came out" in support of gay "marraige".

It's pathetic to compare gays wanting to redefine marriage as the same as blacks getting fire hosed and attack dogged by Bull Connor's thugs. Let me know when ther is a "Gay Only" restroom or drinking fountain backed up by local government. The idea is sickening to compare the two.

BleedingHeart · Jun 1, 2012

conamer said:
You ca see individual pastors who reject homosexuality as a civil rights issue in the video. I don't see a group. You're right the NAACP doesn't all think alike. It's just the leaders toeing the line since Obama "came out" in support of gay "marraige".

It's pathetic to compare gays wanting to redefine marriage as the same as blacks getting fire hosed and attack dogged by Bull Connor's thugs. Let me know when ther is a "Gay Only" restroom or drinking fountain backed up by local government. The idea is sickening to compare the two.

Of course it wasn't long ago that homosexuality was punishable by jail time. And the Bible itself says that gays are to be put to death. Why can't we compare the two again?

Maren · Jun 1, 2012

conamer said:
You ca see individual pastors who reject homosexuality as a civil rights issue in the video. I don't see a group. You're right the NAACP doesn't all think alike. It's just the leaders toeing the line since Obama "came out" in support of gay "marraige".

It's pathetic to compare gays wanting to redefine marriage as the same as blacks getting fire hosed and attack dogged by Bull Connor's thugs. Let me know when ther is a "Gay Only" restroom or drinking fountain backed up by local government. The idea is sickening to compare the two.

By this logic, absolutely no Christians can be said to be discriminated against in this country since they don't even rise to the same level as what gays have had to deal with.

But much of your history seems to be lacking. Even ignoring things like Stonewall (and similar raids of gay bars where gays have been beaten and arrested, one relatively recently in Fort Worth. And that isn't even considering how murders and beatings of gays has been common enough that there a defense strategy has been made, named, and used many times (the gay panic defense). And what about the fact that gays were put in Concentration Camps in Nazi Germany? A

And, to go back to my original point, your post is a straw man. No one is trying to claim that gays have suffered to the same degree as Blacks have, or even that it is close. But there isn't some magical level of suffering that is required. Otherwise, both women and Christians wouldn't be protected by Civil Rights laws.

conamer · Jun 1, 2012

BleedingHeart said:
Of course it wasn't long ago that homosexuality was punishable by jail time. And the Bible itself says that gays are to be put to death. Why can't we compare the two again?

So why don't you see gays put to death by Christians yet it happens in Muslim countries to this day?

Could it be we don't live under the Law? Could it be that Muhammad said so so some do to this day? I don't see you taking on Islam.

conamer · Jun 1, 2012

Maren said:
By this logic, absolutely no Christians can be said to be discriminated against in this country since they don't even rise to the same level as what gays have had to deal with.

But much of your history seems to be lacking. Even ignoring things like Stonewall (and similar raids of gay bars where gays have been beaten and arrested, one relatively recently in Fort Worth. And that isn't even considering how murders and beatings of gays has been common enough that there a defense strategy has been made, named, and used many times (the gay panic defense). And what about the fact that gays were put in Concentration Camps in Nazi Germany? A

And, to go back to my original point, your post is a straw man. No one is trying to claim that gays have suffered to the same degree as Blacks have, or even that it is close. But there isn't some magical level of suffering that is required. Otherwise, both women and Christians wouldn't be protected by Civil Rights laws.

Hog wash, gay activists compare who they are and their demands with the civil rights movement that was going against state laws infringing on the civil rights of blacks. What about blacks being denied the vote or education. I don't see where gays can't go to school with straights. I don't see where gays can't sit at a bar with a sign "No Gays Allowed". :wave:

WilliamB · Jun 1, 2012

Avniel said:
Not in a highly homophobic environment like the black community

In the end it won't matter. This issue will be long forgotten by election day. This will come down to Obama vs Romeny and who you like better. For the few one or two issue black voters, they will hold their noses and vote Obama, just like the GOP is going to do with Pro-choice Romney. That's my guess anyway.

Illuminaughty · Jun 1, 2012

Why would an American waste time "taking on the Muslims" on social issues when there aren't even enough Muslims (let alone Islamic fundamentalists) here to do much of anything in terms of imposing their beliefs on anyone to begin with? The beliefs of Christians on social issues are much more relevant to the direction the state will follow.

The "look at the Muslims" distraction is silly.

Black Church Leaders: Gay Marriage "not a civil rights issue."

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