So when do we become a new creature in Christ?

3rdHeaven · May 17, 2012

We have all heard this a million times..

2 Cor 5:15
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

it is usually followed by the born again theme many like to push.

I became a believer very early on in my life, I am over 50 now. Been a believer for over 25 years! I went to churches that jumped up and down, proudly exclaiming they are born again a new creature, spoke in tongues and prophesied, then when they leave the church slowly return to their normal routine, yours truly included. I could do all that and felt all that, but in between church sittings was my old self, felt as my old self.

Never have I ever doubted my faith! I do doubt religion, and even the great apostle Paul we all Protestant and Catholics like to place on a pedestal as if he was above any of us.

Where is all this coming from? Doubt in religion which was indeed layed out by men. All this talk of being a new creature in Christ, when does it happen if we are to take it so literally? I find it is merely a change of heart or mind, that's all. We still are the same wretched creatures we always were, only now are believers.

I can speak in tongues, interpret, and prophesize as well as the next guy, all hog wash as far as I am concerned, proof of NOTHING except a great imagination and zest to be closer to God. But by the end of the day, are we really any closer to God then any one else?

So what are your thoughts on all this? Are you really any different today? Do you not feel the same ills, joys and wonders? The same pains and worries? Have you o man finally escaped all the short comings and evils of this world? Can you truly say your a new creature in Christ?

Explain how you are different then any other Christian believer then.

bling · May 17, 2012

Is the problem with new converts or old members?

I have taught young people in prison and others that were doing bad stuff but not in prison. Everyone on conversion made huge changes in their life and grow right by me over night. They did more for my energy than I could help them, so it might have more to do with what we are doing with the changed life we have? Going to a church building does not help me that much. Teaching small groups and even one on one can be exiting.

Lee52 · May 17, 2012

3rdHeaven,
Kind of a loaded question with an answer that might appear mysterious......

There is not one Bible verse that states what I am about to say, but the NT as a whole body of prose fully supports it, in context.

We are made new creations upon acceptance of Jesus' substitutional sacrifice on our behalf-personally. Our spiritual death is set aside and new life is breathed into our spirits making us alive spiritually right then. Once that happens, our spirit made alive in Christ Jesus begins to take over control of our earthly existence. Once our sinful mind figures that out, it begins to fight our spirit for the control that it once had exclusively. Our mind must be renewed to surrender that control to our spirit. As that happens, the fight begins from our sinful flesh and blood body to remain in it's natural state. Sin used to be enjoyable for us, and now even though enjoyable to the body, the renewed mind and the newly made alive spirit do not enjoy sin. We begin to recognize the wretchedness of our human existence and the battle taking place for our eternal souls. This latter existence is the road of sanctification.

I sincerely hope that the above explanation makes sense to you and others.

Be blessed,
Lee52

Eddie L · May 17, 2012

3rdHeaven said:
We have all heard this a million times..

2 Cor 5:15
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

it is usually followed by the born again theme many like to push.

So what are your thoughts on all this? Are you really any different today? Do you not feel the same ills, joys and wonders? The same pains and worries? Have you o man finally escaped all the short comings and evils of this world? Can you truly say your a new creature in Christ?

Explain how you are different then any other Christian believer then.

I was in my mid-thirties when I became a real Christian. Through a set of circumstances that would have been impossible by random chance, I was brought to a point where I wanted Christianity to be true before I would confess that it was. On a day that could not have been random chance, my silly engineer's brain was shown why it could believe.

It started a process that, over the last 15 years or so, have taken me through a series of sweeping changes as layers of the "sin and pride onion" have been revealed to me by more circumstances that could not be random. Here's kind of a list:

On the day that I converted I made a list of sinful habits and decided to work on two or three a month. Then I read the sermon on the mount, mentally handed the entire list to God and burned it.
When I stopped pursuing those habits, mental escapes that had been like "self-medication" to other sin problems were gone, so that within 2 years I became very chronically depressed. The removal of one layer of sin caused problems for another.
During 2 years of Christian counseling, I learned a whole new definition of "sin" that showed me attitudes that I would not have considered sinful at the start. When the breakthrough happened, I came to see that my desire to please people was idolatry, and that it had led to a sorry emotional state.
When this sin level was cracked open my thought processes and desires were changed, which exposed a disconnect between what I knew theologically and what I was living practically. I came to see fear and anxiety as symptoms of sinful attitudes, and over the course of a few more years saw in myself a lack of practical faith in God's providence and plan. When I got through that process, my life changed as God armed me to stand up against fear and worry.
When this sin was cracked open, the next thing to come up was a more detailed way of looking at people pleasing and fear, so that I saw that my dependence on the righteousness of Christ had more practical applications that just my eternal salvation. I saw my dependence on my own success in life and the trappings that come with it as a lack of reliance on the sufficiency of Christ. By the time I had seriously wrestled with this, my thoughts and attitudes changed again.

This doesn't mean that I don't still have struggles with each layer of the onion. It means that as my definition of righteousness and sin are better understood, and that as I come to enjoy the process of learning what sin is in me (instead of hiding from it or needing to pretend that I'm better than I am), that I come to lean and depend on the influence of the Spirit that is my only way out of the mess.

From day 1 everyone I knew (even my in-laws) saw that I was different. The thing is that every couple of years I'm different all over again because I see my sinfulness from a slightly different angle.

As for how I'm different than other believers? I've noticed that a lot of believers focus on the outside of the onion, or the behavior, and not the heart of sin. Because of their church culture or how they've been taught they are not inclined to look deeper than that, or are even more prone to "paint over bad wood" in an effort to look like they are better than they are. Maybe because I'm a late lifer, not raised in a church that believed in Jesus, I've had no problem seeing that I'm a sinner? I don't know. I do know that my sanctification is in God's hands, and while every minute I see that there's much of me left in here, I also see the Spirit at work in me, too... not because I speak in tongues or move mountains, but because the love of God exists in me. The righteousness I see is foreign to me, which is why I know it isn't coming from me.

3rdHeaven · May 18, 2012

I think we miss the boat on this.

What is man? A little lower then angels? A little higher then animals? We flatter ourselves if we think we are "new creatures" now. Even Paul says to "keep your eye on the prize". What is the prize? The new creation of course.

There is a lot of song and dance and scripture spinning happening. But I doubt if we fully understand what this is all about.

Born Again? Future tense.
New Creation? Future tense.

What we have now is simply a change of mind and heart, a desire to follow God and be better, to do away with the old man the things we did before. We are not a new creature now, nor are we "born again", unless of course you mean it in a symbolic way and I do not think that is the way it was intended. I think the intent was purely future tense and that is why we still struggle and will continue to live in this imperfect sinful body, until indeed we are born again in that new creation. I think any one who thinks that is now is truly off the mark.

At the end of the day we are pretty much in the same state of being we were in prior to our conversion except now we have a change of heart and mind and want to improve. Every thing else is the same. So where do we get off claiming this New Creation now? Or being born again now? I think the facts speak clearly that is not the case.

We are to God what our pets are to us. Unless some of you think yourself to be greater then you really are! At the end of the day my friends, we are no closer to God then the monkey in the zoo, each and every one of us, sinners and saints are merely God's Apes. And if this offends you, ask yourself why? What can you do or change on your own without God? We were made in God's image only in that we can think to the level we do, other then that, we are no closer to God then our cousins the chimps.

Peace and God Bless!

Lee52 · May 18, 2012

3rdHeaven said:
I think we miss the boat on this.

What is man? A little lower then angels? A little higher then animals? We flatter ourselves if we think we are "new creatures" now. Even Paul says to "keep your eye on the prize". What is the prize? The new creation of course.

There is a lot of song and dance and scripture spinning happening. But I doubt if we fully understand what this is all about.

Born Again? Future tense.
New Creation? Future tense.

What we have now is simply a change of mind and heart, a desire to follow God and be better, to do away with the old man the things we did before. We are not a new creature now, nor are we "born again", unless of course you mean it in a symbolic way and I do not think that is the way it was intended. I think the intent was purely future tense and that is why we still struggle and will continue to live in this imperfect sinful body, until indeed we are born again in that new creation. I think any one who thinks that is now is truly off the mark.

At the end of the day we are pretty much in the same state of being we were in prior to our conversion except now we have a change of heart and mind and want to improve. Every thing else is the same. So where do we get off claiming this New Creation now? Or being born again now? I think the facts speak clearly that is not the case.

We are to God what our pets are to us. Unless some of you think yourself to be greater then you really are! At the end of the day my friends, we are no closer to God then the monkey in the zoo, each and every one of us, sinners and saints are merely God's Apes. And if this offends you, ask yourself why? What can you do or change on your own without God? We were made in God's image only in that we can think to the level we do, other then that, we are no closer to God then our cousins the chimps.

Peace and God Bless!

3rdHeaven,
Let me start out in response to your post by saying that I am not offended by anything in your post. Rather, I am a bit puzzled by it.

To me, it shows a lack of understanding of GOD and Salvation in Christ Jesus.

It is not a Scripturally supported position on which to stand.

I have experienced much more from GOD since accepting His Son Jesus into my life than your post indicates is possible.

Be blessed,
Lee52

BobRyan · May 18, 2012

3rdHeaven said:
We have all heard this a million times..

2 Cor 5:15
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

it is usually followed by the born again theme many like to push.

I became a believer very early on in my life, I am over 50 now. Been a believer for over 25 years! I went to churches that jumped up and down, proudly exclaiming they are born again .

Born again happens when you submit to Christ - and allow the Holy Spirit to change your life - it is supernatural work as we see in Romans 2 and in 2Corinthians 5.

Not everyone you meet in church is born-again because of two things.

1. Not every conversion is genuine.
2. you can lose salvation once you have it. In Matt 7 a great many people are predicted to be "Christian and lost" at the end of time. In fact - that is said by Christ to be "the wide road" that leads to destruction.

in Christ,

Bob

Eddie L · May 18, 2012

( BTW article 16 seem to contradict article 15 and Calvinism. E.g one can 'forget' or 'abandon' God !. So much for irresistible grace. )

No, these are not contradictory. Sheesh.

3rdHeaven · May 19, 2012

Lee52 said:
3rdHeaven,
Let me start out in response to your post by saying that I am not offended by anything in your post. Rather, I am a bit puzzled by it.

To me, it shows a lack of understanding of GOD and Salvation in Christ Jesus.

It is not a Scripturally supported position on which to stand.

I have experienced much more from GOD since accepting His Son Jesus into my life than your post indicates is possible.

Be blessed,
Lee52

It shows lack of understanding to you do it? Well considering I have been studying the scriptures and biblical research for over 25 years I do find that odd that one would say that for having a different opinion.

I see the same thing as you only in reverse. For me it is you who lacks the understanding of GOD and salvation.

I too have experienced great blessings and have no shortage of faith in God. However the biggest difference between us is in our stand on the scripture, which was written by man, translated by man, interpreted by man and spinned by man. It seems you have greater faith in men then I do

Peace and God Bless!

stan1953 · May 23, 2012

3rdHeaven said:
We have all heard this a million times..

2 Cor 5:15
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

it is usually followed by the born again theme many like to push.

I became a believer very early on in my life, I am over 50 now. Been a believer for over 25 years! I went to churches that jumped up and down, proudly exclaiming they are born again a new creature, spoke in tongues and prophesied, then when they leave the church slowly return to their normal routine, yours truly included. I could do all that and felt all that, but in between church sittings was my old self, felt as my old self.

Never have I ever doubted my faith! I do doubt religion, and even the great apostle Paul we all Protestant and Catholics like to place on a pedestal as if he was above any of us.

Where is all this coming from? Doubt in religion which was indeed layed out by men. All this talk of being a new creature in Christ, when does it happen if we are to take it so literally? I find it is merely a change of heart or mind, that's all. We still are the same wretched creatures we always were, only now are believers.

I can speak in tongues, interpret, and prophesize as well as the next guy, all hog wash as far as I am concerned, proof of NOTHING except a great imagination and zest to be closer to God. But by the end of the day, are we really any closer to God then any one else?

So what are your thoughts on all this? Are you really any different today? Do you not feel the same ills, joys and wonders? The same pains and worries? Have you o man finally escaped all the short comings and evils of this world? Can you truly say your a new creature in Christ?

Explain how you are different then any other Christian believer then.

We are ALL different. Our finger prints shows that, as do our retinal scans.

The day I was born again in my spirit and saved, I became new in spirit.
God has helped me everyday since then. Lam. 3:22-24;
Because of the Lords great love we are not consumed,
for his compassions never fail.
23 They are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.
24 I say to myself, The Lord is my portion;
therefore I will wait for him.

YES, every day I am a new creature in Christ.

PaladinValer · May 23, 2012

We become a new creature in Christ in Holy Baptism.

stan1953 · May 23, 2012

PaladinValer said:
We become a new creature in Christ in Holy Baptism.

Sorry but the Bible doesn't teach that.

PaladinValer · May 24, 2012

stan1953 said:
Sorry but the Bible doesn't teach that.

Yes it does. It has been the Christian teaching right up until the Reformation, and folks like Luther and Hus didn't disagree with the historical teaching.

Hammster · May 24, 2012

MOD HAT ON

This thread has undergone a clean up. Some posts were deleted that were not in violation. Sorry.

MOD HAT OFF

ReformedPharisee · May 26, 2012

stan1953 said:
Sorry but the Bible doesn't teach that.

Actually, it does...

John 3:3-5
3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Jesus used the term "born again" but did not explain it to Nichodemas until he asked. Then Jesus explained that the term "born again" is a two-part process. One is born again (receives the new birth, regeneration) upon entering into the Covenant through baptism, then (because the indwelling of the Spirit is a promise only to those participating in the Covenant) the Spirit enters his life in fulfillment of the New Covenant promise, just as Peter also states...

Acts 2:38-41
38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."
40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."
41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day to the church about three thousand souls.

First - the indwelling of the Spirit is NOT the same thing as baptism in the Spirit, they are two entirely different subjects.

Second - Peter stated that they would receive the promise (of the Covenant) of the Spirit AFTER being baptized (entering the Covenant).

Third - When baptized we are baptized into the Body of Christ, the church, hence verse 41, where 3,000 souls were added to the church through baptism in one day.

timur123456789 · May 26, 2012

3rdHeaven said:
We have all heard this a million times..
So when do we become a new creature in Christ?[

When we turn away from sin and fallow the will of the Lord.

OzSpen · May 26, 2012

3rdHeaven said:
We have all heard this a million times..

2 Cor 5:15
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

it is usually followed by the born again theme many like to push.

I became a believer very early on in my life, I am over 50 now. Been a believer for over 25 years! I went to churches that jumped up and down, proudly exclaiming they are born again a new creature, spoke in tongues and prophesied, then when they leave the church slowly return to their normal routine, yours truly included. I could do all that and felt all that, but in between church sittings was my old self, felt as my old self.

Never have I ever doubted my faith! I do doubt religion, and even the great apostle Paul we all Protestant and Catholics like to place on a pedestal as if he was above any of us.

Where is all this coming from? Doubt in religion which was indeed layed out by men. All this talk of being a new creature in Christ, when does it happen if we are to take it so literally? I find it is merely a change of heart or mind, that's all. We still are the same wretched creatures we always were, only now are believers.

I can speak in tongues, interpret, and prophesize as well as the next guy, all hog wash as far as I am concerned, proof of NOTHING except a great imagination and zest to be closer to God. But by the end of the day, are we really any closer to God then any one else?

So what are your thoughts on all this? Are you really any different today? Do you not feel the same ills, joys and wonders? The same pains and worries? Have you o man finally escaped all the short comings and evils of this world? Can you truly say your a new creature in Christ?

Explain how you are different then any other Christian believer then.

Isn't this basic?

Mark 1:14-15, "Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel" (ESV).

What is the meaning of 'the gospel' after the death, burial and resurrection of Christ? Isn't this at the core of what it means to 'believe in the gospel'?

Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born (1 Cor. 15:1-8 NIV).

Can it be placed any simpler than that?

If you want more detail, check this article, "What is the Gospel?"

Oz

episkopos · Jun 1, 2012

Hello all,
I think the problem is that Christians (including myself) sometimes have trouble believing that God completely changes us when we become born again. Maybe we cannot possibly believe that our old, wicked, sinful nature can be completely renewed and that God can give us a new spirit which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4:24). But we must believe that God, as soon as we receive Him into our hearts, gives us a new spirit and gives us the Holy Spirit to help us live for Him. When we give our lives to God, when we become born again, we are saying we want to live for Him, but we cant do it by ourselves and we dont know how. When God sees that desire in our heart and works with it, through His grace. (Eph2:8). We are also being constantly renewed as we walk with God, He is working within us to make more like Him, as we surrender our lives to Him (Col 3:10).

The Spirit of God will then come upon him, and into his heart. Thus, his inner being will be born or reproduced again. God gives him a new heart and spirit altogether. I will give you a new heart and a new mind. I will take away your stubborn heart of stone and give you an obedient heart. I will put my spirit in you and will see to it that you follow my laws and keep all the commands I have given you.- Basic theology
[bless and do not curse]
With that new spirit, he becomes a new man, or a new creature and is ready to live a new life. This new life is possible because a born again Christian is actually a new person with a new heart.
God bless you all.

Hupomone10 · Jun 2, 2012

PaladinValer said:
We become a new creature in Christ in Holy Baptism.

1. How is holy baptism different from baptism?

2. What if you die on the way to the water (or spray for those who sprinkle)?

Knee V · Jun 2, 2012

Hupomone10 said:
1. How is holy baptism different from baptism?

It is the same thing.

2. What if you die on the way to the water (or spray for those who sprinkle)?

God is after our hearts, not conformity to a set of rules. He is not limited to the gifts that He has given us. Baptism accomplishes things in our lives, but God's mercy far exceeds our ability to participate with it. We would often call that a "baptism of desire"; we would also call pre-baptism martyrdom a "baptism of blood".

So when do we become a new creature in Christ?

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