Intelligent Abiogenesis

AnotherAtheist

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Just out of interest, are there any people around here who believe in evolution, but with "Intelligent Abiogenesis"?

That is, that God created the single "first living organism", and then evolution (not mediated/controlled by God) then took over?
 

Notedstrangeperson

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AnotherAtheist said:
Just out of interest, are there any people around here who believe in evolution, but with "Intelligent Abiogenesis"? That is, that God created the single "first living organism" ...
Yes, it's called biogenesis.

AnotherAtheist said:
... and then evolution (not mediated/controlled by God) then took over?
Yes, it's called Deism.

:p
 
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AnotherAtheist

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Yes, it's called biogenesis.

I've looked into how this term is used on this forum, and it seems to vary from the dictionary version. e.g. here's the definition from the online English dictionary.

bi·o·gen·e·sis (b-jn-ss) also bi·og·e·ny (b-j-n)
n.
1. The principle that living organisms develop only from other living organisms and not from nonliving matter.
2. Generation of living organisms from other living organisms.
3. See biosynthesis.
4. The supposed recurrence of the evolutionary stages of a species during the embryonic development and differentiation of a member of that species. Also called recapitulation.

This is why I'm using "abiogensis" even when the first life is created by God, because something non-living is being created, in many creation stories from non-living matter.

But even in the "Christian Forum" definition, "biogenesis" is not a precise enough definition for what I am saying. Because "biogenesis" could be at any stage of the evolutionary process, including creating the current world with the current "kinds" as-is. I'm suggesting one particular type of "biogenesis" where the only life created was the first life/cell, and evolution then proceeded through solely natural, non-guided, processes after that.

[/quote]

Yes, it's called Deism.
:p

Deism is the "clockwork universe", i.e. that God set the universe in motion, and then it continued on auto-pilot. This is different from what I was talking about as I was talking about one particular variety of that where the first life e.g. the first cell, was created by God, which implies direct intervention by God well after the start of the universe.


The point of this thread is to ask if there's anyone who believes in this particular flavour of creation. So, the thread would end with, or without as the case may be, people saying if they believe in this particular creation. However, nobody has.

I'm surprised for two reasons. First, over on the "Christians only" forum, I noted several people whose belief in creation matched this pattern. Also, to me, this seems like an obvious choice for people who already believe that God exists.

There is quite a bit of uncertainty of how life got started. Hence unlike subsequent evolution there is still space for a wide variety of theories to fit or not fit the few known facts. There is a problem in that the first cells appeared very soon (geological) after the earth cooled. That needs an explanation, and we don't have any.

For an atheist the explanation "God did it" doesn't pass the Occam's razor test because requiring God as part of the explanation is more complicated than just having the first cell spontaneously appear.

But, if someone already believes in an all-powerful God, then having that God create the first cell would pass Occam's razor, and helps explain how cells arose so quickly.

Hence I'm surprised that this isn't a more popular belief.

Or perhaps this just shows how different the populations of the two (Christians-only versus free-for-all) evolution forums are.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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When one species "evolved" into the next.
Speciation is a readily observable phenomenon. We can make it happen in the lab, we can see it happen naturally in the wild, we can see it happen in reaction to human habitats. What part of it is miraculous?
 
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SkyWriting

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For an atheist the explanation "God did it" doesn't pass the Occam's razor test because requiring God as part of the explanation is more complicated than just having the first cell spontaneously appear.

There is no such test. In fact, it is specifically stated in a number of analysis that Occams's razor is not to be used as any kind of test. The razor is a summary of a philosophy and it's origins do not allow for testing anything.
 
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SkyWriting

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Speciation is a readily observable phenomenon. We can make it happen in the lab, we can see it happen naturally in the wild, we can see it happen in reaction to human habitats. What part of it is miraculous?

Speciation has 18 different definitions so its value is limited.
 
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BobRyan

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In what respects does evolutionary theory require a miracle?

Pick a spot.

Abiogenesis ??? -- ever tried seen it? Ever tried to make it happen in a lab. Urey and Miller tried to get it kick started - found out that it cannot even be contrived in the lab - much less happen on its own.

Prokaryotes turning into Eukaryote amoebas? Ever seen it? Ever tried to make it happen in a contrived lab experiment? Can't be done.

Amoebas turn into tree dwelling hyrax - given enough time and chance and a zillion generations on mount improbable. Think we will ever see that?

How about that same tree dwelling hyrax turning into a horse?

At what point are you ready to show that it can be done -- or else find a way for evolutionism to progress without solving the gap?

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Speciation has 18 different definitions so its value is limited.

True enough. Better to stick with the gene pool concept within a static genome.

Then it does not matter whether members of that genome mate or not. The issue is the genes - not the variations within the pool that do not produce new genes. Hint - activating a gene through the epigenome or other means is not the same thing as building a new one and spawning a new population in a eukaryote species.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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juvenissun

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Speciation is a readily observable phenomenon. We can make it happen in the lab, we can see it happen naturally in the wild, we can see it happen in reaction to human habitats. What part of it is miraculous?

So, give me one example.

The plastic eating bacteria experiment took 20(?) years under intensely controlled, most favorable lab condition. And the bacteria is still the same bacteria, only have appetite changed.

What is a better example than that?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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So, give me one example.

The plastic eating bacteria experiment took 20(?) years under intensely controlled, most favorable lab condition. And the bacteria is still the same bacteria, only have appetite changed.

What is a better example than that?
OK, you realise that speciation requires that the new species fall under the same taxa as the old species, right?

Speciation is where one population of breeding individuals splits, over time, into two distinct populations that cannot interbreed. That is, one species becomes two species.

Evolution requires that the new species fall under the same taxonomic classification as the old species. It's called a nested hierarchy for a reason: the offspring of the original Mammal species will always be mammals, this is required by evolution. But, clearly, those descendants can diversify to inhabit all corners of the globe.

"But they're still mammals!", I hear you cry. Well... YES! That's rather the point, my friend. They must remain mammals, otherwise evolution is dead.

If you speciate fruit flies, they'll still be fruit flies - this is a necessary effect of evolution, and no one has ever, ever said they'll ever become anything but fruit flies. Crying out, "But they're still fruit flies!" does nothing but belie your own misunderstanding of what evolution actually implies.
 
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SkyWriting

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Pick a spot.

Abiogenesis ??? -- ever tried seen it? Ever tried to make it happen in a lab. Urey and Miller tried to get it kick started - found out that it cannot even be contrived in the lab - much less happen on its own.

Prokaryotes turning into Eukaryote amoebas? Ever seen it? Ever tried to make it happen in a contrived lab experiment? Can't be done.

It's important to note that even if it could be done, it would prove that intelligence was required.

Plus it wouldn't prove anything about past events other than what is one possibility out of infinite unknown moments in the past.
 
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AnotherAtheist

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There is no such test. In fact, it is specifically stated in a number of analysis that Occams's razor is not to be used as any kind of test. The razor is a summary of a philosophy and it's origins do not allow for testing anything.

Well OK then, "God did it" will not be acceptable as a hypothesis by Atheists because it requires a God that they believe not to exist. Same meaning, less opportunity for quibbles.
 
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