Man of Science condemned for failing to drink the kool aid

Flatland

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Using your link Carson presents a rather standard argument against evolution> Irreducibly complex organisms, abundant fossil but no transition fossils, we should have plenty of evidence of intermediates but we don't. Yet what is interesting is the conclusion he draws from this.

"Ultimately, if you accept the evolutionary theory, you dismiss ethics, you don't have to abide by a set of moral codes, you determine your own conscience based on your own desires. You have no reason for things such as selfless love, when a father dives in to save his son from drowning. You can trash the Bible as irrelevant, just silly fables, since you believe that it does not conform to scientific thought. You can be like Lucifer, who said, "I will make myself like the Most High."

Can you prove evolution? No. Can you prove creation? No. Can you use the intellect God has given you to decide whether something is logical or illogical? Yes, absolutely. It all comes down to "faith"--and I don't have enough to believe in evolution. I'm too logical!"

Your argument is that he can not teach at a fifth grade level of Science yet he is a accomplished neurosurgeon & Director of Pediatric Neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins Hospital. (My brother is an instructor at John Hopkins medical school.) Carson also has 61 honorary doctorate degrees, yet you claim that he is unqualified to teach fifth grade science.

If he is "unqualified", it is because he is overqualified. Not from lack of understanding or knowledge of science. Of course I forgot, you consider evolutionism to be science, so I can see where you may get confused.

So where's your proof that this surgeon is qualified to teach science or understands science at all?

What Science do you need for neurosurgery? In the very least you need to know the nervous system. Do you know what the Director of Pediatric Neurosurgery does? I needed surgery once, so I went to the director of surgery and asked him to do it. He had students follow him around wanting to learn how to be a surgeon. So here you have someone that trains surgeons how to do their job, but he is not qualified to teach fifth grade science? Is that not a bit absurd of a suggestion. Of course we know that no one is serious. The very absurdity was designed to draw people into the discussion in the hope of promoting evolutionary beliefs.

Right....that's like saying a car mechanic is a scientist because they need to understand "car science" LOL!!! What a joke!

If you were to ask how many doctors of medicine have a fifth grade level of understanding of the Bible. Then you may have something. But any doctor could teach any fifth grade subject. My sister teaches and she says all you have to do is be one chapter ahead of your class.

Any grown adult with a brain should be able to teach any 5th grade subject. However this surgeon has proven himself to be too stupid to even do that. I'm not even talking about evolution here. He lacks the understanding of even the most basic science. What makes you think he's qualified to comment on evolution?
 
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Jazer

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Your choice also conveniently demonstrates that even professionals who excel in their field and reject evolution are completely clueless about evolution.
So does this mean that you just demonstrated that a man who is an expert in the field of neurology can be clueless about evolution? Remember he has more then 4 years of medical school. They have 7 years of on the job training in neurology called an internship. Would you trust him if you needed neurological surgery? A man who is the directory of his department of neurology. You do know that the director is the instructor that all the interns report to? To put icing on the cake this is Pediatric Neurosurgery (Developmental) My dad was a Pediatrician for 50 years. Actually my brother has been a Developmental Pediatrician for over 35 years. But if you want to say they do not know nothing about nothing and they esp don't know nothing about Evolution then why not. Your shooting yourself in the foot, but that is fine with me. So to be clear your saying that doctors do not know anything about science? Does that mean they do not read the research and study the medical journals? They do not keep up with the latest discovery in the prevention and the cure of sickness, disease and disabilities?
 
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So where's your proof that this surgeon is qualified to teach science or understands science at all?
To be an expert in neurology is not science? If neurology is not science then what it is? I have a book here that talks about how cells communicate with each other. I say that neurology is very much science. To use the criteria that you have to do research to be a scientist is nonsense. But even if you use your criteria, Carson has done research. He has developed ground breaking methods for brain surgery. And I am amazed he did it WITHOUT any knowledge of Evolution. So go right ahead and shoot yourself in the foot if you want. That is fine with me if you want to admit you can be a leader in the field of neurological surgery without any knowledge of evolution. I guess it is not so important after all if people in the real world can get the job done fine without knowledge of Darwin's theory.
 
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Flatland

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To be an expert in neurology is not science? If neurology is not science then what it is? I have a book here that talks about how cells communicate with each other. I say that neurology is very much science. To use the criteria that you have to do research to be a scientist is nonsense. But even if you use your criteria, Carson has done research. He has developed ground breaking methods for brain surgery. And I am amazed he did it WITHOUT any knowledge of Evolution. So go right ahead and shoot yourself in the foot if you want. That is fine with me if you want to admit you can be a leader in the field of neurological surgery without any knowledge of evolution. I guess it is not so important after all if people in the real world can get the job done fine without Darwin's theory.

So is a car mechanic a scientist? What about a physical therpist or a message therapist? I guess they must be scientists too right?

And you still haven't shown any proof how this surgeon is qualified to teach science.
 
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So where's your proof that this surgeon is qualified to teach science or understands science at all?
You can be a car mechanic by the time you graduate from High School. To be a doctor you have to go to college, go to medical school, be a resident and then a intern. That adds up to 16 years MORE education then your car mechanic.

I remember once the TV broke and my dad wanted to watch a program on TV that night. So rather then just replace the tube himself he called someone to repair the TV. The guy replaced the burned out tube and gave my dad a bill for $10. My dad said: "WHAT, $10 just to replace a tube"? The repair man said: "You don't understand. I went to school for 9 months to learn how to do this." My dad said I went to school for 11 years and served in the Army to pay for it and I only charge $5 for a house call. The next day he want to the office and raised his rate to $10 for house calls. He never ever refused a house call. It is just people got away from asking him to come to their house and they did not think doctors did that anymore.

So the next time you need surgery, R U going to get your mechanic to do it? Good luck with that one.
 
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mkatzwork

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To use the car mechanic idea....

Drive around your area and visit five or six car mechanics. Ask each one of them the molecular weight of carbon (this is basic high school science and carbon is fundamental to the very process that makes a car run). I guarantee you didn't know it whilst reading this sentence, by the way.

Now do the same with doctors also, whilst you're at it.

I guarantee that the number who get the answer right will be extremely small, yet carbon is the very building block of organic chemistry - the foundation of all biology upon which medicine is built. Find any organic chemist, any they will give you the right answer without even blinking (in fact, most chemists would be able to, and probably physicists. Some biologists might have to think for a second, even smart ones).

Even basic tenets of high school science can be foreign to people in seemingly scientific fields.

This is one of the commonest ideas in creationism - that if someone has studied one area of scientific thinking, ergo they must be expert in ALL areas. They think a geologist is qualified to expound on cosmology.

They think a doctorate from an unaccredited university that has the first word "hello" is somehow 'expertise'. The magical "Dr" in front of their name means they must have an intellect of colossal proportions.

There is no other word to describe these assumptions, other than idiotic. If you don't understand why the above is true, then you're staring at the very reason for your own ignorance without seeing it.

By the way, if you're going to diss peer-reviewed science, at least do it properly. Start by disconnecting your electricity (Joule's papers were peer-reviewed, amongst others that were literally crucial to the development of that which you take for granted) - then trash your computer, actually anything with a wire in it - in fact, you probably want to become Amish. At least they actually have the balls to live what they believe...

To be an expert in neurology is not science? If neurology is not science then what it is? I have a book here that talks about how cells communicate with each other. I say that neurology is very much science. To use the criteria that you have to do research to be a scientist is nonsense. But even if you use your criteria, Carson has done research. He has developed ground breaking methods for brain surgery. And I am amazed he did it WITHOUT any knowledge of Evolution. So go right ahead and shoot yourself in the foot if you want. That is fine with me if you want to admit you can be a leader in the field of neurological surgery without any knowledge of evolution. I guess it is not so important after all if people in the real world can get the job done fine without knowledge of Darwin's theory.
 
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Flatland

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You can be a car mechanic by the time you graduate from High School. To be a doctor you have to go to college, go to medical school, be a resident and then a intern. That adds up to 16 years MORE education then your car mechanic.

And I know of car mechanics who has over 20+ years of education have have Phds so what's your point?

And how does the amount of education you get make you a scientist? Guess what genius, lawyers have to go to college for as long as if not longer than surgeons. Does that make lawyers scientists? I would really really like to see your definition of what science and what a scientists is. Because at this point you have demonstrated that you have no idea what they are. You just have absolutely no clue whatsoever.

I remember once the TV broke and my dad wanted to watch a program on TV that night. So rather then just replace the tube himself he called someone to repair the TV. The guy replaced the burned out tube and gave my dad a bill for $10. My dad said: "WHAT, $10 just to replace a tube"? The repair man said: "You don't understand. I went to school for 9 months to learn how to do this." My dad said I went to school for 11 years and served in the Army to pay for it and I only charge $5 for a house call. The next day he want to the office and raised his rate to $10 for house calls. He never ever refused a house call. It is just people got away from asking him to come to their house and they did not think doctors did that anymore.

So the next time you need surgery, R U going to get your mechanic to do it?

What does ANY of that have to do with Surgeons being/not being scientists? Wow just wow......
 
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Split Rock

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What they were whining about is that he does not believe in real hard-core evolutionism that argues for amoebas turning into horses given enough time and chance up there on mount improbable.

in Christ,

Bob

Sounds to me like its the creationists who are "whining" now. Or maybe its only "hard-core evolutionismists" who whine.....

Its kinda sad that you don't even care that this doctor has made the most ridiculous and incorrect statements about evolution. It doesn't embarass you at all... does it? I suppose that he's just like you... he hates it just because he does, even if he doesn't even understand it. Just throw in some rhetoric about ameobas turning into horses and drinking kool aid, and you're Good To Go! :thumbsup:
 
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mkatzwork

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Interesting. I didn't know you could get a degree in bacteriology?

To be fair to Jazer, yes, you can, all though it's almost always lumped together with microbiology.

There are a few other microbiologists, for example Georgia Purdom, who believe in creationism - we're talking the sort of number you can count with your fingers and not much higher, since the very most who believe in it amongst the entire scientific community even she admitted was at most "several thousand" - seems impressive until you realize there are approximately 6 million scientific researchers active as of 2006).

She published in mainstream papers for a while, but now peer reviews two that were set up precisely because creation 'scientists' couldn't get flawed work past the peer review process, so they made up their own with rather less stringent standards.

Believe me - if anybody came up with a paper that was scientifically sound (quoting biblical text is not allowed as is quoting harry potter or anything other than prior scientific work); and showed something that was somehow impossible in evolutionary theory, they'd be a) rich b) famous c) a rock star in the scientific community. 150 years and nobody has managed it. Editors would kill to publish it.
 
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Flatland

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Psyhology is not a science? Someone forgot to tell Dr Fraud and Dr Spook that.

Last time I checked psychology was a "social science" which is about as much science as "political science."

Once again you have demonstrated that you have no idea what science is.

No wonder you consider people like Kent Hovind, Ray Comfort, and Ben Carson to be scientists. ^_^
 
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verysincere

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So the next time you need surgery, R U going to get your mechanic to do it? Good luck with that one.


And when you want to conduct research on evolutionary processes, R U going to get your neighborhood creationist to do it? Good luck with that one.


(In fact, if you need someone to simply DEFINE evolution or explain The Theory of Evolution, are you going to get a creationist to do it? Good luck with that one.)

Just don't call Dr. Benjamin Carson if you need help understanding The Theory of Evolution OR fifth grade astronomy lessons about the earth's orbit around the sun. In the SDA website interview, he flunked both subjects.

The complaints about Dr. Carson speaking at the Emory University commencement have nothing to do with his decisions about drinking Kool-aide. Most universities simply have a natural aversion for people who so adamantly claim to understand things when they do not. (Universities get kind of particular in that regard.)

.

.
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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Flatland said:
Surgeons/Physicians technically aren't scientists.
Verysincere said:
Admit it. Dr. Carson is totally unqualified to speak about science outside of his medical practice. Before he lectures on astronomy, perhaps he should visit a nearby elementary school. Do you REALLY think he makes a good choice for overruling the world's scientists?
NGC 6712 said:
No he is not qualified as a scientist. He is a surgeon - that's a medical car mechanic. What understanding of science does he really need for his job? The only science he has ever done is undergrad general science and the bit of biochem in a medical degree.

Sorry but this really sounds like desperation to me: being a creationist automatically disqualifies him from being a scientist ... even though he's a highly resepcted neurosurgeon.

Besides, doesn't being a neurosurgeon mean he must know at least a little bit about neuroscience. Neuroscience is a science, right? :p

I don't quite see why this matters anyhow. I've seen quite a few scientists and other highly-educated people make ridiculous claims.
 
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selfinflikted

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Sorry but this really sounds like desperation to me: being a creationist automatically disqualifies him from being a scientist ... even though he's a highly resepcted neurosurgeon.

That's not that they said. Being a creationist is not what disqualifies him as a scientist. Not being a scientist is what disqualifies him from being a scientist.
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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selfinflikted said:
That's not that they said. Being a creationist is not what disqualifies him as a scientist. Not being a scientist is what disqualifies him from being a scientist.
And as I pointed out - in order to become a neurosurgeon, presumably he must know one or two things about actual neuro-science.
 
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verysincere

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Sorry but this really sounds like desperation to me: being a creationist automatically disqualifies him from being a scientist ... even though he's a highly resepcted neurosurgeon.

Besides, doesn't being a neurosurgeon mean he must know at least a little bit about neuroscience. Neuroscience is a science, right? :p

I don't quite see why this matters anyhow. I've seen quite a few scientists and other highly-educated people make ridiculous claims.


I think you will find that the reason many of us focused on his creationist (and anti-evolution) view here was because BobRyan used them as the basis of his complaint that Carson was an example of a brilliant scientist who refused "to drink the evolutionist Kool-aide."

But in the case of the Emory University protests (and the public letter of the faculty) it wasn't so much about his creationism and science blunders. It was about his frequent claims [which Carson now contests as being taken out of context] that atheists have no morals/ethics because they have no deity-based moral standard. Dr. Carson has sounded like he thinks that those who don't believe in a deity think they can do anything they want because there is no basis for morality.

So whether that accusation against Carson is justified or not, that appears to be the major reason for protests at Emory University. Carson's anti-evolution statements have certainly been mentioned in the course of various protests but it seems to be a secondary issue for most.

But as I said, BobRyan made Carson's anti-evolution position central to his thread, so that is why many have focused on it here. We are pointing out that someone who doesn't understand evolution (and many other basic science concepts) is hardly a good poster-child for being a "brilliant scientist who opposes evolution. So you are correct: Lots of famous people make ridiculous statements. But they don't usually get paraded as an expert in the field underlying those ridiculous statements.

.
 
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mkatzwork

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[/INDENT]
What they were whining about is that he does not believe in real hard-core evolutionism that argues for amoebas turning into horses given enough time and chance up there on mount improbable.

in Christ,

Bob

Ok. Let's go through this, really slowly.

Amoebas do not 'turn into' horses. Nobody has ever said that, and if they did, they were a fool. Creationists just love mischaracterizing evolutionary theory in varying degrees of ridiculousness (crocoduck anybody?) but no matter how you state it all you show is you just don't even basically understand it to be able to criticize it. Not even the tiniest portion of the basics. Actually read the Origin of Species (it's kind of heavy going, but no heavier than Isaiah) and demonstrate some understanding of what the basics actually say, then come at it, and you'll do a lot better.

Something that looked something like an amoeba, given billions of years, "gave birth" to offspring that gave birth to offspring and so on, maybe millions or even billions of generations of breeding (because we're not talking about 75 years between these generations). Their descendants after millions and millions of "generations" include horses, dogs, cats, marsupials, plants, bacteria, and yes, humans.

Actually, the process, greatly simplified - likely started with two prokaryotes 'turning into' (to borrow your not-so-great phrase, but it'll do) a eukaryotic cell.

A larger prokaryote can engulf a smaller, aerobically respiring prokaryote (through a well known process known as endocytosis, that is occurring in your body right now, incidentally, in case you want to disbelieve that too).

The smaller prokaryote becomes a membrane bound organelle, a specific feature to eukaryotes, so the resulting organism is undoubtedly a eukaryote. When it then divides through standard cellular reproduction, the divided cells will also be eukaryotes. If you compare the new eukaryotes with the original prokaryotes, you'd see two different organisms, but they're fundamentally different.

It's a step in a very very very very very very very very very very long process, the magnitude of which is almost too vast to comprehend.

A monkey did NOT turn into a human, ever in the history of the universe. We share an ancestor who looked something like an ape and we classify as an ape.

Every time the genetic information was passed on, the system that passes it on is somewhat imperfect, and mutations in the code are possible - and indeed, quite probable. The average mutation rate as measured is around 175 nucleotides per gene in every generation, and there are approximately 3 billion nucleotides in the human genome - we're talking a small difference, but it's significant. The variation rate has varied hugely and will continue to vary hugely, but it was enough to allow for everything you see around you.

The whole process is exceptionally, mind-boggingly slow - billions of years - with occasional spurts relative to that speed, but still, even those spurts are pretty slow. So slow and involving numbers so large that the human mind is not exactly brilliant at comprehending it, and even some evolutionary biologists have a hard time explaining it, which is part of the problem sometimes.

Creationists sometimes win debates (or think they win) because throwing out reason and just believing in a book of poetry IS simpler and easier to communicate to the uneducated masses, but unfortunately it is vastly too simple for a world that we are gradually learning is vastly too complex for a single book, not even a "good" book. It is certainly vastly too complex to refute scientific progress with biblical quotes, however nice the poetry is.

The fact that it's hard to explain does not make it any more or less true. Quantum mechanics is extreme hard to explain but tests have shown it so far to have large portions that makes extremely (EXTREMELY) precise predictions about the nature of the observed world that match the actual observations. Evolutionary theory can yield precise predictions that have been shown to match observation, thus it is held by the vast (VAST) majority of scientists expert in the field to be true.
 
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verysincere

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And as I pointed out - in order to become a neurosurgeon, presumably he must know one or two things about actual neuro-science.

I don't think anyone contests that. But their point is that KNOWING about science doesn't make one a scientist. I've taught science at both the undergrad and graduate school level---but that in itself doesn't make me a scientist. A scientist is someone who carries out scientific research based upon the scientific method. I could score the highest scores ever recorded on various science aptitude tests but that wouldn't make me a scientist.

We have a number of working scientists on this forum. I think they will back me up on this.

.
 
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Just don't call Dr. Benjamin Carson if you need help understanding The Theory of Evolution
Ok, I got it, you can be a cutting edge neurosurgeon and an expert on neuroscience without having to know anything about evolution. I guess your theory is not so useful after all. If Dr Carson does not seem to need it for the research he is doing as a brain surgeon.
 
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sfs

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The ironic thing about all of this debate on whether he's a scientist or not is that it doesn't matter. If you say dumb things about science (and this guy said some very dumb things), scientists will criticize you, whether you're a brilliant scientist, a non-scientist who knows something about science, or a complete neophyte.
 
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