Eastern Orthodox And Deification

Montalban · May 17, 2012

It seems to me to be a stark contradiction; hl2 says people can both fall-away, but not sin.

How this is possible is what I would like to know.

PaladinValer · May 17, 2012

Montalban said:
It seems to me to be a stark contradiction; hl2 says people can both fall-away, but not sin.

How this is possible is what I would like to know.

It isn't.

Nickolai · May 17, 2012

hl2 said:
don't see what's so hard about understanding what i said.
not having a sacrifice is the same as being condemned.
thats why those who are condemned are those who reject jesus.
simple? yes, quite. gift has still been given, and its a promise to those who repent and believe they get life.

you're hung up on something though.
it's a mystery to me.

What's so hard about what you said is that your beliefs on this subject are contradictory. Re-reading a contradictory statement over won't make it stop contradicting.

I will even venture to say that Montalban understands you completely, but your belief is simply nonsense.

Montalban · May 21, 2012

Nickolai said:
What's so hard about what you said is that your beliefs on this subject are contradictory. Re-reading a contradictory statement over won't make it stop contradicting.

I will even venture to say that Montalban understands you completely, but your belief is simply nonsense.

Many thanks.

I have had some experience with teaching. I know that if a lesson is not well taken then simply repeating it doesn't help.

One has to change tact.

Let us assume (if one hasn't already) that I am not that bright. Stating a point, then repeating it over and over again doesn't help my understanding of it.

And, again working on the same assumption, if someone is simply repeating it over and over again then one might think that it is not their intent to teach, but to simply brow-beat.

None of which is conducive to discussion

Ortho_Cat · May 21, 2012

so anyone want to go back to talking about EO understanding of deification?

Trogool · May 22, 2012

Ortho_Cat said:
so anyone want to go back to talking about EO understanding of deification?

Montalban · May 22, 2012

Ortho_Cat said:
so anyone want to go back to talking about EO understanding of deification?

Hopefully.

However lest anyone claim the doctrine that people don't fall away
Simon, sometimes called 'the Magus' heard and believed...

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

Then fell away into sin
Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.

20 But Peter said to him, Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.

But according to some, once saved he shouldn't have to repent!!!

Rick Otto · May 22, 2012

Simon himself also believed what?
What the demons "believe"?

People can fall from grace, but God neither repents of His gifts nor does he let anything (present company included) come between Him & His love for those He saves.
We may have to watch our works burn, but we will be saved nvertheless as though by fire.

1Cor.3:13: Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Rick Otto · May 22, 2012

Montalban said:
I've already gone over that. I find your posts don't answer my questions but repeat your beliefs again and again. You now suggest that instead of answering that I should just understand your posts, you've now repeated that theme! And, you've still not answered my questions.

Now you know how we feel about YOUR responses.

Montalban · May 22, 2012

It says Simon believed. I read this as he became 'a believer' (as in a Christian)

If one has an alternative why not actually set out a belief we can discuss? I know it may seem a novelty for a discussion board

FredVB · May 22, 2012

There is little conclusive said about Simon, that passages with him make a poor source for doctrine, when thete are many better passages for source for the right doctrines that would speak to what conclusions might be drawn.

The one that is God is the supreme being. This is Yahweh, the self existent essential being who is eternal, the Creator. Christ is the incarnation of the supreme being, as human, so he is still God. Any other human cannot become that eternal, self existent being, and so would never be God.

Ortho_Cat · May 22, 2012

Trogool said:

care to explain?

ViaCrucis · May 23, 2012

I don't see why the idea of Theosis should be controversial, it's pretty basic, historic, orthodox teaching. It's in the same camp as the Trinity, the Hypostatic Union, the resurrection of the dead, and the rest of what Christianity has continued to teach for the last two thousand years.

While not expressly detailed much in Protestantism as such (all that much), it's always been there. For example, the Reformed Tradition has spoken of unio cum Christo (that is, Union with Christ) as being the entire process of the Christian's salvation from eternal election all the way to glorification.

Also, let's just look at this statement which C.S. Lewis wrote,

"(God) said that we were "gods" and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him-for we can prevent Him if we chooseHe will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for." C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity 174-5

Even in the sermons of Martin Luther we find,

"God pours out Christ His dear Son over us and pours Himself into us and draws us into Himself, so that He becomes completely humanified and we become completely deified and everything is altogether one thing, God, Christ, and you." - Source (online PDF file)

-CryptoLutheran

Gxg (G²) · May 23, 2012

ViaCrucis said:
I don't see why the idea of Theosis should be controversial, it's pretty basic, historic, orthodox teaching. It's in the same camp as the Trinity, the Hypostatic Union, the resurrection of the dead, and the rest of what Christianity has continued to teach for the last two thousand years.

While not expressly detailed much in Protestantism as such (all that much), it's always been there. For example, the Reformed Tradition has spoken of unio cum Christo (that is, Union with Christ) as being the entire process of the Christian's salvation from eternal election all the way to glorification.

Also, let's just look at this statement which C.S. Lewis wrote,

"(God) said that we were "gods" and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him-for we can prevent Him if we chooseHe will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for." C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity 174-5

Even in the sermons of Martin Luther we find,

"God pours out Christ His dear Son over us and pours Himself into us and draws us into Himself, so that He becomes completely humanified and we become completely deified and everything is altogether one thing, God, Christ, and you." - Source (online PDF file)

-CryptoLutheran

Excellent points

Montalban · May 23, 2012

If we aren't transformed then the incarnation was rather pointless.

We'd have a 'heaven' like in Islam; of people sitting about remote from God, drinking and carousing and doing other 'earthy' things.

FredVB · May 24, 2012

In the fulfillment of the hope of the redeemed according to the promise in the word of Yahweh God, we will be transformed, and will be more glorious, being his creatures, but would never be God, as he is of himself.

file13 · May 24, 2012

ViaCrucis said:
I don't see why the idea of Theosis should be controversial, it's pretty basic, historic, orthodox teaching. It's in the same camp as the Trinity, the Hypostatic Union, the resurrection of the dead, and the rest of what Christianity has continued to teach for the last two thousand years.

While not expressly detailed much in Protestantism as such (all that much), it's always been there. For example, the Reformed Tradition has spoken of unio cum Christo (that is, Union with Christ) as being the entire process of the Christian's salvation from eternal election all the way to glorification.

Yeah, I think the issue with most evangelicals is that the Eastern Orthodox idea of theosis rejects Sola Gratia -> Sola Fide.

The EO use the term theosis to refer to what we might call the "whole process of salvation" and mix biblically distinct notions such as "justification" and "sanctification" into this whole blurry mystery called "theosis." Evangelicals on the other hand believe that, yes, there is more to salvation than simply justification and absolutely would say that sanctification involves active participation from us as we cooperate with the Spirit. But evangelicals absolutely don't believe that sanctification is possible unless one has first been justified by grace through faith. I.e. to the EO salvation is all one big muddy process. To evangelicals, salvation is first manifested by grace through faith in the event of justification, after which we begin the cooperative process of sanctification.

In other words, to evangelicals justification is a one time event and sanctification is an ongoing process. To the EO, all of salvation is an ongoing process called "theosis." I personally also think that evangelicals prefer to stick to the biblical terms (justification/sanctification) rather than using a third party one (theosis) that does not maintain the nuanced distinctions we find in terms used in Apostolic Tradition as recorded in Scripture.

That being said, is sanctification neglected in much of the evangelical world? I think it clearly is. But I also think that so is justification, so this shouldn't surprise us. If we're not preaching the whole Gospel, well, we're not preaching the whole Gospel...which does involve us "mortifying the flesh" with the help of the Holy Spirit. We do so not in order to be saved, but because we have been saved (i.e. justified). But we can't really get there if we're not sharing the good news of the free gift of a God who really saves helpless sinners to begin with. Sadly, unless we start there, if we did focus on sanctification we'd by preaching salvation by works.

Montalban · May 24, 2012

file13 said:
Yeah, I think the issue with most evangelicals is that the Eastern Orthodox idea of theosis rejects Sola Gratia -> Sola Fide.

The EO use the term theosis to refer to what we might call the "whole process of salvation" and mix biblically distinct notions such as "justification" and "sanctification" into this whole blurry mystery called "theosis." Evangelicals on the other hand believe that, yes, there is more to salvation than simply justification and absolutely would say that sanctification involves active participation from us as we cooperate with the Spirit. But evangelicals absolutely don't believe that sanctification is possible unless one has first been justified by grace through faith. I.e. to the EO salvation is all one big muddy process. To evangelicals, salvation is first manifested by grace through faith in the event of justification, after which we begin the cooperative process of sanctification.

In other words, to evangelicals justification is a one time event and sanctification is an ongoing process. To the EO, all of salvation is an ongoing process called "theosis." I personally also think that evangelicals prefer to stick to the biblical terms (justification/sanctification) rather than using a third party one (theosis) that does not maintain the nuanced distinctions we find in terms used in Apostolic Tradition as recorded in Scripture.

That being said, is sanctification neglected in much of the evangelical world? I think it clearly is. But I also think that so is justification, so this shouldn't surprise us. If we're not preaching the whole Gospel, well, we're not preaching the whole Gospel...which does involve us "mortifying the flesh" with the help of the Holy Spirit. We do so not in order to be saved, but because we have been saved (i.e. justified). But we can't really get there if we're not sharing the good news of the free gift of a God who really saves helpless sinners to begin with. Sadly, unless we start there, if we did focus on sanctification we'd by preaching salvation by works.

The problem with the Protestant ideas of justification/sanctification, etc. are the literal interpretation of God getting angry and needing to be 'satisfied'.

God is perfect, all-powerful, never changing, always loving.

To assume that I have a power over him is rather presumptuous - that I can 'make' God angry.

The assumption that a perfect God literally needs for anything (in this case some kind of recompense for sin) is at loggerheads with a perfect, all-powerful, never changing, always loving God

file13 · May 24, 2012

Montalban said:
To assume that I have a power over him is rather presumptuous - that I can 'make' God angry.

Is that your assumption?

What do you think Paul "assumes" about this?

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
(Romans 1:18 ESV)

What about Jesus?

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
(John 3:36 ESV)

Do you think they are being presumptuous here and making assumptions about God?

Montalban said:
The assumption that a perfect God literally needs for anything (in this case some kind of recompense for sin) is at loggerheads with a perfect, all-powerful, never changing, always loving God

Again, are you assuming that this is true? I have to ask because this is not something evangelicals believe.

Also, where did you get this notion that God is always loving?

Gxg (G²) · May 24, 2012

I still wonder why many are focused upon deification when one dies and yet no one discusses deification in the current life, as it concerns the ways that the Lord placed His spirit/authority on others to be Divinely comissioned....like Psalm 82 show ("I have said ye are gods, you are all sons of the Most High"...and what Christ noted later in John 10 when saying "Does not your own law say "I have called ye gods"?

No one will ever be on the same level as the Lord...but there does seem to be times in scripture the Lord advanced others via His power/SPIRIT....and with Theosis, while we are going through a transformation and being worked upon for HIS glory, there doesn't seem to be anything within the Word that said all aspects of Theosis began when Christ arrived.

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