The Great Controversy - Michael vs Dragon

Lion King · May 8, 2012

Lysimachus said:
There are profuse scriptures that show that Satan's kingdom is the realm of death and destruction. We are trapped in this world of sin. In Judges 5:12; 2 Chronicles 6:37,38; Jeremiah 29:14; and Amos 1:6, we see the context of what "captivity captive" means. When Christ came to this earth, He conquered Satan, and He "delivered" the captives. When Christ ascended up on High, he "led captivity captive", meaning, He brought the spoils of His war. If He did not bring the captives with Him, what spoils did He bring? None.

Captivity to sin is intrinsically tied to "death". Death is swallowed up in "victory", when? At the last trump. See Isaiah 25:8; 1 Cor 15:55. So let us not separate sin from death. Christ actually brought up the spoils of War with Him to heaven. The glorious song of His victory is sung in Psalms 24.

Do you not understand it yet? No one who has been born of God becomes a CAPTIVE of satan after physical death. Abraham never was a prisoner of the devil after death...

The wicked is driven away in his wickedness: but the righteous has hope in his death. Proverbs 14:32

_ _ _

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

The captives mentioned in Psalms and Ephesians refer to the foes of God that were defeated at the cross; i.e the devil, death, sin etc.

And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Colossians 2:15

What are captives? Those who are attached to sin. What does sin lead to? Death.

When Christ went to heaven, did He just "deliver" the captives? No. He "led" them to heaven. He brought spoils of war to heaven.

Christ came to deliver the captives that were SPIRITUALLY DEAD, and not physically dead. Big difference!

Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brothers. He that loves not his brother stays in death. 1 John 3:14

Once you are physically dead, there is no repentance for those who are captives of sin; only judgment awaits. The book of Hebrews clearly testifies to that.

Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment. Hebrews 9:27

I have already dealt with this argument. You cannot produce one scripture to prove that those who resurrected ended up dying again. History nor scripture supports this. I already explained what "first" means as well.

What happened to the boy who was resurrected by Elijah? Did he die again?
What happened to Lazarus after he was raised from the dead by Christ? Did he die again?

By the way, are you aware that Christ was the FIRST to defeat death? Just putting it out there.

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death has no more dominion over him. Romans 6:9

But this is not what the text says.

The subject are those in their graves, not those who are in heaven. Paul is directing the sentence from God's location, that "God will BRING with Jesus those who have fallen asleep". Bring them where? To heaven.

Much scholarship has unequivocally demonstrated that the subject here is not bringing their spirits down to join with their bodies. That is ridiculous. Why not just give them a body while they are in heaven? Why come down, join with their bodies, then go right back up again?

That is foolishness.

The issue is that Jesus "died and rose again". This is juxtaposed to Jesus "bringing". That means in context of "rising", it is Jesus that will come down, and bring us up to heaven.

Nobody will be brought to heaven. Christ will establish His Kingdom on earth, and my buddy GW says it best:

Again, where will Jesus be when He returns to receive us unto Himself? Will He not be RIGHT HERE ON EARTH, establishing the coming kingdom of God? He most certainly will be. As such, we will be RIGHT HERE ON EARTH WITH HIM. You know, "thy kingdom COME", "thy will be done IN EARTH", "the meek shall inherit THE EARTH", etc., etc. When Christ returns, He will sit upon the throne of His father David in a temple in Jerusalem.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isaiah 2:2-4

_ _ _

But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it.

For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.

In that day, saith the Lord, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the Lord shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem. Micah 4:1-8

Yes, one day soon the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem and THE LORD'S HOUSE (My Father's house) will be established upon the mountain of the Lord.

Lysimachus · May 8, 2012

Lion King said:
Again, I will ask you: do you what it means when the Scriptures state that Christ is the first-born from the dead? It means that Jesus was the FIRST ONE to be resurrected unto ETERNAL LIFE.

This is not in order of chronology, as now we are speaking of types.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Concerning the 144,000, which are yet future:

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Question:

Because the 144,000 are labeled "firstfruits", does this mean that they come first? Obviously not, as James just showed that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

"First born from the dead" does not mean order of chronology.

Notice:

Colossians 1:18 - "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence."

Hebrews 12:23 - "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect."

Israel also was called the "firstborn":

Exodus 4:22 - "Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn."

Israel is the "firstborn", and so is the "Church". But wait, how can the Church be the "firstborn" when Israel was the "firstborn" first?

Firstborn is a symbol to represent all those who are IN Christ, whether before He died on the cross, or after. He is the "firstborn from the dead". All those who went to heaven before Christ's death on the cross were "in Christ", "In the Firstborn from the dead" before the event actually took place.

Lion King said:
In view of the fact that Jesus was not the first person ever to arise from the dead (cf. 2 Kings 13:21; Luke 7:14-15; Matthew 10:8; 11:5), some have questioned why the apostle Paul twice described Jesus as the firstfruits from the dead in 1 Corinthians 15. Did Paul err? Was he ignorant of the widows son whom God revived at Zarephath (1 Kings 17:22)? Did he not know that Jesus had raised Lazarus from the dead (John 11:43-44)? How could Paul legitimately speak of Christ as the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep?

You plagiarized this straight from here:
Apologetics Press - "Christâthe Firstfruits"

No worries, I won't grind you over the mill too hard.

Lion King said:
One solution to this alleged discrepancy can be found in the fact that Jesus was the first to rise from the deadnever to die again.

But this is an assumption. For Moses went to heaven. A body is not contended over if there is no bodily resurrection. Scriptures are already clear that there is no such thing as a dichotomization of the soul. Scriptures are already clear that nobody goes to heaven upon death.

Here is the proof: Immortality: Conditional or Innate?

Thus, Moses could not have ascended to heaven without a body. Therefore, we cannot interpret "firstfruits" as you are wanting to, otherwise, we would be contradicting scripture, as scripture does not teach the Immortality of the Soul.

More: The Truth About Death

More: The Truth About Death - What Happens When We Die?

Lion King said:
All who have ever arisen from the dead, including the sons of both the widow of Zarephath and the Shunammite (2 Kings 4:8-37), the daughter of Jairus (Mark 5:35-43), Lazarus, et al., died in later years. Jesus, however, accurately could be called the firstfruits of the dead because Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him (Romans 6:9). All others who previously were raised at one time, died again, and are among those who sleep and continue to wait for the bodily resurrection; only Jesus has truly conquered death. In this sense, Christ is the firstborn from the dead (Colossians 1:18; Revelation 1:5; cf. Acts 26:23).

Nobody, I mean NOBODY was ever raised unto immortality before Jesus Christ was.

Your friend Eric Lyons is wrong.

He ignores that Moses was the first to rise from the dead and go to heaven. Moses was the first to come from the grave, historically. Providence arranged for his reappearance to Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration, with Elijah. Here was a symbol of the dead who will be raised at Christ's coming, and of the living saints who will be translated. Moses was the beginning of the harvest, and Elijah, the grand consummation.

The company who rose from the grave at Christ's resurrection were shaken from their tombs when He breathed out on the cross, "It is finished." This was the first group resurrection. The sickle had begun to reap. The fruits of Christ's death and resurrection were already visible. These resurrected ones first appeared on earth, then in heaven, where they are seen as elders around the throne of God.

Indeed, the elders in heaven are composed of these resurrected ones.

Lion King said:
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christs at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24

Amen. I do not disagree with this verse. But all who are resurrected are resurrected by virtue of Christ's death and resurrection. Christ's rising from the dead is the only reason any man, from the dawn of man to the consummation of all things has any hope at resurrecting.

Lion King said:
Christ being slain from the foundation of the world illustrates not only that He was foreordained to be slain, but also that the efficacy, or the beneficial effects of that death, is the same as if that sacrifice had been made before the creation of the world. Thus, Old testament saints are washed clean in Christ's blood the same as we are today. In other words, the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice is not limited by time. God had already chosen who He would Save before creation, and had thus already ordained the Saviour to shed His blood for them, to make this possible. their Salvation wasn't something which could be thwarted, it was something which was as good as 'done' from the time that God ordained it.

You just proved my point. The word "before" does not mean physically and literally slain before the foundation of the world, yet spiritually speaking, it was so. Likewise, this same principle applies to the "firstfruits".

Lion King said:
However, Christ was LITERALLY slain and resurrected about 2 000 years ago. As Peter says:

For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 1 Peter 1:18-20

Amen, and the "firstfruits" were also chosen and ordained before the creation of the world.

You make arguments where there are none.

LittleLambofJesus · May 8, 2012

brinny said:
Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son of the living God, Who was God incarnate, Emmanuel, is not Michael the archangel.

Michael the archangel is created by our Creator. Jesus the Christ was not "created".

I am just gonna lurk in this thread awhile, while browsing thru some others.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7628701/
Michael the Arch Angel can not be Jesus (Yahshua)

http://www.christianforums.com/t7626504/
It is impossible for Michael to be Jesus. (Yahshua)

......

Lysimachus · May 8, 2012

Lion King said:
Do you not understand it yet? No one who has been born of God becomes a CAPTIVE of satan after physical death. Abraham never was a prisoner of the devil after death...

No, don't keep arguing friend. While God's people may be physically trapped in Babylon, their deliverance may be assured, but they have not physically been delivered until a king comes and physically delivers them. Does this mean that while they are in Babylon, and free in spirit, that they are captives to sin?

Of course not. Those captives that were set free from sin, and who were trapped in death, were resurrected, and Christ lead them to heaven.

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

Death is like the blink of an eye. Your next conscious thought is the resurrection. 3000 years could transpire, and it will feel as though you closed your eyes and opened them. Paul illustrates clearly when this event takes place. At the Second Coming of Christ. Here is a full study on it:

Absent from the Body

Lion King said:
The captives mentioned in Psalms and Ephesians refer to the foes of God that were defeated at the cross; i.e the devil, death, sin etc.

And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Colossians 2:15

Don't keep arguing. We already address this issue very carefully. No need to keep repeating yourself. These scriptures do not say what you think they are saying. We disagree.

The captives were "led" as He ascended up on High. It is talking about being "led" to heaven.

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

These did not die. They resurrected in their glorified bodies, and these were the ones seen in heaven.

Lion King said:
Christ came to deliver the captives that were SPIRITUALLY DEAD, and not physically dead. Big difference[/COLOR]

That too. There is a dual application. Once again, there is not a shred of evidence that you can produce that the Old Testament resurrected saints died again. Surely there would be a record of their continued existence and eventual death, especially being "many". They would have also been named by name, and had houses to dwell, and would have been interviewed everywhere. The news would have captured the attention of the world. But they were only the on the earth for a very short time before being led home. They not only conquered sin, but where physically set free from the bonds of death, and were taken home to heaven.

Very simple, very plain. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

Lion King said:
Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brothers. He that loves not his brother stays in death. 1 John 3:14

Once you are physically dead, there is no repentance for those who are captives of sin; only judgment awaits. The book of Hebrews clearly testifies to that.

Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment. Hebrews 9:27

The judgment is "next". But there is "sleep" in between. When is this judgment?

It is described at the end of the millennium, in Revelation 20. Even William Tyndale and Martin Luther did not believe in the Immortality of the Soul. Tyndale reminded us as to what purpose the resurrection served if souls were already going to heaven upon death. Some argue that Luther did teach the immortality of the soul. They fail to remember that expositors change their minds over their lifespan. Luther changed his views over time as his writings clearly suggest.

The ultimate "reward" of being resurrected spiritually from spiritual death is to be resurrected physically from physical death. Thus, when Christ went to heaven, He led "captivity captive".

The NIV renders it:

"When he ascended on high, he took many captives" (Ephesians 4:8)

Notice what is being said here. WHEN He ascended, he took many captives. The verses you speak of are referring to Christ setting people free from sin DURING His ministration, and during the Apostle's ministration. But Ephesians 4:8 is specifically referring to when Christ ascended--at THAT specific moment!

ESV:

"When he ascended on high he led a host of captives."

To say that he delivered sinners from sin only when He ascended is completely contradictory to the verses you quoted. Thus, this text is applying it to bringing those who are sleeping in their graves (physically trapped, not spiritually), and giving them their reward upon His ascension.

What happened to the boy who was resurrected by Elijah? Did he die again?
What happened to Lazarus after he was raised from the dead by Christ? Did he die again?

By the way, are you aware that Christ was the FIRST to defeat death? Just putting it out there.

The NASB renders it:

"When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives"

He brought spoils of war when He arrived back to the New Jerusalem from conquering sin and death over this world.

Very simple. Very plain.

Lion King said:
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death has no more dominion over him. Romans 6:9

Nobody will be brought to heaven. Christ will establish His Kingdom on earth, and my buddy GW says it best:

Again, where will Jesus be when He returns to receive us unto Himself? Will He not be RIGHT HERE ON EARTH, establishing the coming kingdom of God? He most certainly will be. As such, we will be RIGHT HERE ON EARTH WITH HIM. You know, "thy kingdom COME", "thy will be done IN EARTH", "the meek shall inherit THE EARTH", etc., etc. When Christ returns, He will sit upon the throne of His father David in a temple in Jerusalem.

And? What does this have to do with anything? I agree, 100% (except I do not believe the earthly reign will commence until after the millennium. But that is off-topic, and irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

This does not mean that Moses could not be physically resurrected first and gone to heaven. Why? Because while it was physically first, it was already by virtue of Christ's death and resurrection from the foundation of this world.

Lion King said:
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isaiah 2:2-4

_ _ _

But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it.

For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.

In that day, saith the Lord, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the Lord shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem. Micah 4:1-8

Yes, one day soon the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem and THE LORD'S HOUSE (My Father's house) will be established upon the mountain of the Lord.

Off-topic.

Yes, one day these Old Testament types will be fully realized in the Earth Made New, where the New Jerusalem will sit upon the Mount of Olives, and the Temple of Jerusalem will be outside the New Jerusalem.

Keep this post on topic, and let's not go off into the millennial reign. Thank you.

Lion King · May 8, 2012

Lysimachus said:
This is not in order of chronology, as now we are speaking of types.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Concerning the 144,000, which are yet future:

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Question:

Because the 144,000 are labeled "firstfruits", does this mean that they come first? Obviously not, as James just showed that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

"First born from the dead" does not mean order of chronology.

Notice:

Colossians 1:18 - "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence."

Hebrews 12:23 - "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect."

Israel also was called the "firstborn":

Exodus 4:22 - "Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn."

Israel is the "firstborn", and so is the "Church". But wait, how can the Church be the "firstborn" when Israel was the "firstborn" first?

Firstborn is a symbol to represent all those who are IN Christ, whether before He died on the cross, or after. He is the "firstborn from the dead". All those who went to heaven before Christ's death on the cross were "in Christ", "In the Firstborn from the dead" before the event actually took place.

Except, when the term "first-born from the dead" is alluded to Christ, it actually means that. Christ was indeed the first one to rise from the dead unto eternal life; He was the first to overcome the dominion of death.

For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. Romans 6:9

Christ ALONE has been raised to live forever by God, thus He ALONE is the first begotten from the dead:

I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hades and of death. Revelation 1:18

_ _ _

And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers. God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:

‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.’ Acts 13:32-33

You plagiarized this straight from here:
Apologetics Press - "Christâ€”the Firstfruits"

No worries, I won't grind you over the mill too hard.

They presented it better than I could.

But this is an assumption. For Moses went to heaven. A body is not contended over if there is no bodily resurrection. Scriptures are already clear that there is no such thing as a dichotomization of the soul. Scriptures are already clear that nobody goes to heaven upon death.

Here is the proof: Immortality: Conditional or Innate?

Thus, Moses could not have ascended to heaven without a body. Therefore, we cannot interpret "firstfruits" as you are wanting to, otherwise, we would be contradicting scripture, as scripture does not teach the Immortality of the Soul.

More: The Truth About Death

More: The Truth About Death - What Happens When We Die?

Where are the SCRIPTURES that say Moses was resurrected?

Your friend Eric Lyons is wrong.

He ignores that Moses was the first to rise from the dead and go to heaven. Moses was the first to come from the grave, historically. Providence arranged for his reappearance to Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration, with Elijah. Here was a symbol of the dead who will be raised at Christ's coming, and of the living saints who will be translated. Moses was the beginning of the harvest, and Elijah, the grand consummation.

Please show me the Scriptures where it says that Moses (and not Christ) is the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep? That is all I ask.

The company who rose from the grave at Christ's resurrection were shaken from their tombs when He breathed out on the cross, "It is finished." This was the first group resurrection. The sickle had begun to reap. The fruits of Christ's death and resurrection were already visible. These resurrected ones first appeared on earth, then in heaven, where they are seen as elders around the throne of God.

Wait a minute, are you saying that the first group of the resurrection of the dead occurred before Jesus Christ Himself was resurrected? How is that possible?

Indeed, the elders in heaven are composed of these resurrected ones.

Scriptures will more than suffice.

Thank you.

Amen. I do not disagree with this verse. But all who are resurrected are resurrected by virtue of Christ's death and resurrection. Christ's rising from the dead is the only reason any man, from the dawn of man to the consummation of all things has any hope at resurrecting.

You just proved my point. The word "before" does not mean physically and literally slain before the foundation of the world, yet spiritually speaking, it was so. Likewise, this same principle applies to the "firstfruits".

Amen, and the "firstfruits" were also chosen and ordained before the creation of the world.

You make arguments where there are none.

The Scriptures clearly state that:

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 1 Corinthians 15:20

Christ has become the first fruits, the FIRST to rise from the dead unto immortality:

But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen — that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.” Acts 26:22-23

Lysimachus · May 8, 2012

Lion King said:
Mere speculation. Disregarded.

So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day. Deuteronomy 34:5-6

PS. The dead in Christ were never captives of satan. Abraham, Abel, Moses, David were never prisoners of the devil or death. The righteous ALWAYS have hope even in deat; they have refuge in God!

No speculation here. They were captives to Satan before they were converted. But our physical bodies are still trapped in this world of sin. God's people are "in" Babylon, which is why they are called to come out.

King Jesus will not resurrect His people physically unless they have resurrected spiritually prior to this.

Concerning Deuteronomy 34:5-6, it says nothing about his body being there. It says nobody knows where his grave is to this day. The grave may still be there, but it does not mean he is still buried there.

Lion King said:
In bodily form? How do you know it was bodily form when it was a vision?

Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid. But Jesus came and touched them and said, “Arise, and do not be afraid.” When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.

Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.” Matthew 17:1-9

You obviously did not read everything I provided in my previous posts.

Concerning the "vision" in Matthew 17:19, you are missing the point. You fail to account for the other gospels:

Luke
9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father's, and of the holy angels.
9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment [was] white [and] glistering.
9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
9:32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
9:33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
9:34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
9:36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept [it] close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

Mark
9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh [with him] Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
9:3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
9:5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
9:6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
9:8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
9:10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

So we see that Matthew's account is the only one that uses the word "vision". Luke and Mark say "seen".

The Greek word for "vision" in Matthew 17:9 is "Heroma", which means:

Strong's #3705
1. that which is seen, spectacle
2. a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision

Thus, the "primary" definition of this word is that which is seen, or a spectacle. It can mean a literal spectacle. When you are watching a theatrical event, that is literally taking a place, that is a "seen" or "spectacle".

The context of the passages clearly indicate that Moses and Elijah were literally present.

Lion King said:
Wrong.

The spirits of all righteous men are with the LORD in heaven.

While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:59-60

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. Hebrews 12:22-24

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

False theology.

Genesis 2:7 - "And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath [spirit] of life; and man became a living soul."

Now let's find out what the opposite is:

Ecclesiastes 12:7- "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

We see here that God had the "spirit" of this person "before" he gave it. Does this mean Adam was trekking through space as a spirit before He breathed it into the body of Adam?

Absolutely not.

Death is creation in reverse. The "spirit" is the spark of life from God. It is God's life, not the life of the person. The recorded data, or the character of that person are recorded in God's Hard-Drive, but it is non-functioning. It cannot think.

God gave it, so it goes back to God. But that "life" or "breath" or "spirit" is not a self-existent, floating conscientious entity that can think, see, feel, or know. There is no praise and no knowledge in death.

At the resurrection, He'll take that programmed disk and pop it into a new body, and suddenly the computer will come to life. A computer is dead without electricity. The data goes back to God who gave it, but that data has no functioning power without a body. God is in possession of the data. God is in possession of the life.

The spirits of the righteous made perfect simply is referring to God's people who have been converted and made perfect, but there is nothing here about a state of existence without a body in heaven.

Lysimachus · May 8, 2012

Lion King said:
Except, when the term "first-born from the dead" is alluded to Christ, it actually means that. Christ was indeed the first one to rise from the dead unto eternal life; He was the first to overcome the dominion of death.

Nope. I already showed, "first-born from the dead" does not mean first in order, but first in importance, from the foundation of the world.

Lion King said:
For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. Romans 6:9

Repetition. Covered.

Lion King said:
Christ ALONE has been raised to live forever by God, thus He ALONE is the first begotten from the dead:

I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hades and of death. Revelation 1:18

Amen. But this does not mean He was raised from the dead first in chronological order, but order of preeminence . Order of spiritual significance.

Lion King said:
And we declare to you glad tidingsthat promise which was made to the fathers. God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:

You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You. Acts 13:32-33[/COLOR]

Lion King said:
They presented it better than I could.

And they say nothing of what you say.

You interpret these passages wrong. That's the bottom line. They do not say what you think they are saying.

Lion King said:
Where are the SCRIPTURES that say Moses was resurrected?

Do you know how to put two and two together? Two and two together says the following:

1. Satan and Christ contended over the "body" of Moses. Jude gets this direct quote from Jewish tradition--that tradition taught that Moses was resurrected and went to heaven.

2. You do not contend over a corpse, unless the issue in question is over resurrection of the body.

3. Moses is seen standing with Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration. It was a literal event as I have already demonstrated above.

Deduction deduction deduction. It is irresponsible handling of the Word of God to form a doctrine off of single texts in scripture. Conclusions must be formed "line upon line, here a little, there a little, precept upon precept". It must be formed by comparing scripture with scripture, and deduction.

Lion King said:
Please show me the Scriptures where it says that Moses (and not Christ) is the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep? That is all I ask.

Why should I prove something I do not believe? Moses was not the firstfruits. His physical resurrection and ascension into heaven does not make him the "firstfruits", lol.

Lion King said:
Wait a minute, are you saying that the first group of the resurrection of the dead occurred before Jesus Christ Himself was resurrected? How is that possible?

It's what the scriptures say:

Matthew
27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

1. They arose (came to life) at Christ's death.

2. They came out of their graves after his resurrection.

He took these captives with Him to heaven at His ascension.

Lion King said:
The Scriptures clearly state that:

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 1 Corinthians 15:20

Christ has become the first fruits, the FIRST to rise from the dead unto immortality:

But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles. Acts 26:22-23

What these scriptures "clearly" state do not contradict whatsoever what we have presented.

Being the firstfruits from the dead has absolutely nothing to do with the order of chronology, as I have clearly, unequivocally, and unapologetically demonstrated by those scriptures which testify that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. Israel was "sent redemption" and their sins were "blotted out" some 700 years before the event actually occurred.

Yet the sins of Israelites were taken care of long before Christ's physical death.

Likewise, Moses, when He died and resurrected, did so by virtue of Christ's future resurrection which was recognized as the "firstfruits".

Very plain. Very simple.

Let's not keep going over this point over and over again.

Lion King · May 8, 2012

Lysimachus said:
No, don't keep arguing friend. While God's people may be physically trapped in Babylon, their deliverance may be assured, but they have not physically been delivered until a king comes and physically delivers them. Does this mean that while they are in Babylon, and free in spirit, that they are captives to sin?

Of course not. Those captives that were set free from sin, and who were trapped in death, were resurrected, and Christ lead them to heaven.

Was Abraham and the rest of the righteous dead, CAPTIVES of satan before the death and resurrection of Christ?

Scriptures says NO!

The righteous perish, and no one takes it to heart; the devout are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest as they lie in death. Isaiah 57:1-2

Death is like the blink of an eye. Your next conscious thought is the resurrection. 3000 years could transpire, and it will feel as though you closed your eyes and opened them. Paul illustrates clearly when this event takes place. At the Second Coming of Christ. Here is a full study on it:

Absent from the Body

The spirits of all those who have died are in heaven (Mount Zion/heavenly Jerusalem) with the LORD. As it is written:

While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. Then he fell on his knees and cried out, Lord, do not hold this sin against them. When he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:59-60

_ _ _

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. Hebrews 12:22-24

Don't keep arguing. We already address this issue very carefully. No need to keep repeating yourself. These scriptures do not say what you think they are saying. We disagree.

The captives were "led" as He ascended up on High. It is talking about being "led" to heaven.

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

These did not die. They resurrected in their glorified bodies, and these were the ones seen in heaven.

How were they resurrected in their glorified bodies when the Scriptures say that Christ is the first-fruits of the harvest, and everyone else will be resurrected at His second coming?

But in fact, Christ has been raised from the dead. He is the first of a great harvest of all who have died.

So you see, just as death came into the world through a man, now the resurrection from the dead has begun through another man. Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life. But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised as the first of the harvest; then all who belong to Christ will be raised when he comes back.

After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24

PS. The dead in Christ are never referred to as CAPTIVES. As I said to you earlier, the captives were the enemies of Christ defeated at the cross, that were led away in victory by Christ.

That too. There is a dual application. Once again, there is not a shred of evidence that you can produce that the Old Testament resurrected saints died again. Surely there would be a record of their continued existence and eventual death, especially being "many". They would have also been named by name, and had houses to dwell, and would have been interviewed everywhere. The news would have captured the attention of the world. But they were only the on the earth for a very short time before being led home. They not only conquered sin, but where physically set free from the bonds of death, and were taken home to heaven.

Very simple, very plain. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

How can they be resurrected to live forever before their appointed time?

As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance. Daniel 12:13

The judgment is "next". But there is "sleep" in between. When is this judgment?

It is described at the end of the millennium, in Revelation 20. Even William Tyndale and Martin Luther did not believe in the Immortality of the Soul. Tyndale reminded us as to what purpose the resurrection served if souls were already going to heaven upon death. Some argue that Luther did teach the immortality of the soul. They fail to remember that expositors change their minds over their lifespan. Luther changed his views over time as his writings clearly suggest.

The ultimate "reward" of being resurrected spiritually from spiritual death is to be resurrected physically from physical death. Thus, when Christ went to heaven, He led "captivity captive".

The NIV renders it:

"When he ascended on high, he took many captives" (Ephesians 4:8)

Notice what is being said here. WHEN He ascended, he took many captives. The verses you speak of are referring to Christ setting people free from sin DURING His ministration, and during the Apostle's ministration. But Ephesians 4:8 is specifically referring to when Christ ascended--at THAT specific moment!

ESV:

"When he ascended on high he led a host of captives."

To say that he delivered sinners from sin only when He ascended is completely contradictory to the verses you quoted. Thus, this text is applying it to bringing those who are sleeping in their graves (physically trapped, not spiritually), and giving them their reward upon His ascension.

What happened to the boy who was resurrected by Elijah? Did he die again?
What happened to Lazarus after he was raised from the dead by Christ? Did he die again?

By the way, are you aware that Christ was the FIRST to defeat death? Just putting it out there.

The NASB renders it:

"When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives"

He brought spoils of war when He arrived back to the New Jerusalem from conquering sin and death over this world.

Very simple. Very plain.

As I have already explained to you on numerous occasions, those who die in Christ are never referred to as captives of satan, sin or death. Those who die believing in the LORD will rest in peace as explained by Isaiah:

The righteous perish, and no one takes it to heart; the devout are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest as they lie in death. Isaiah 57:1-2

"When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives"

The above statement simply means that Christ led away the enemies of God (satan, death, sin) who had been defeated by the cross. Ask yourself this, why would Christ lead CAPTIVE a host of captives? If theses captives were the saints resurrected as you claim, why would Christ lead them in captive?

And? What does this have to do with anything? I agree, 100% (except I do not believe the earthly reign will commence until after the millennium. But that is off-topic, and irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

This does not mean that Moses could not be physically resurrected first and gone to heaven. Why? Because while it was physically first, it was already by virtue of Christ's death and resurrection from the foundation of this world.

Again, please show me the Scriptures which state that Moses was resurrected?

Off-topic.

Yes, one day these Old Testament types will be fully realized in the Earth Made New, where the New Jerusalem will sit upon the Mount of Olives, and the Temple of Jerusalem will be outside the New Jerusalem.

Keep this post on topic, and let's not go off into the millennial reign. Thank you.

Was just correcting your error, where you falsely claimed that the saints will be taken to heaven after resurrection of the dead. That's all.

Lysimachus · May 8, 2012

Christ the First-born

The book of Revelation first mentions the resurrection of Christ in chapter one, verse five. It speaks there of Christ the "first-born of the dead" (R.S.V).

The Greek norrotoxoc used here is very correctly translated "first-born." However, we know that Christ was not the first in point of time to be resurrected. From the Biblical records, Moses was the first resurrected in point of time.

Therefore, if the "first-born," or "first" is not in point of time it must have another significance. That significance is in its importance or its quality. The resurrection of Jesus Christ holds this "first position" in status because all those raised from the dead before and after the resurrection of Christ gain their freedom from the bonds of death on the virtue of Christ's resurrection. In this sense Christ's resurrection is called "the first" because all hope of any resurrection of the dead is dependent on the hope of Christ's resurrection. Without the cross there could be no resurrection, and without the resurrection the cross would be a bleak monument of death and despair.

Further, Christ's resurrection is set apart as first because of His ability to lay down His life and to take it up again (John 10: 18). This sets Him apart from any other man who has been raised or who will be raised. No other man has the power of life in himself. All are dependent upon Christ for life. He is the source of all life. When this title "first-born" is connected with the following title in Revelation 1:5, it seems to reflect the thought of Psalm 89:27, "Also I will make him my first-born, higher than the kings of the earth."

Jesus Christ is the "first-born" of the dead because He is the resurrection, He is life (John 11:25). Jesus did not say: "I show you the resurrection and the life." He did not even say: "I give you the resurrection and the life." He said clearly: "I am the resurrection, and the life."

Jesus Christ being the "first-born of the dead" is not just someone who proved to us that there is a resurrection and that there is something called eternal life; He is the living presence in whose company and in whose presence and in union with whom earthly life becomes eternal life, and existence becomes superlative living. When Jesus said, "I am the resurrection, and the life," He laid claim to the first position of the resurrected ones, a claim which covers life and death, time and eternity, this world and the world to come. It is the claim that with Him the future years for us will hold surge after surge of power and not the creeping death that is characteristic of life today. It is a guarantee that death is not the end, for through Jesus Christ men enter into the life of God which nothing or no one can destroy.

Christ's resurrection was "first" because He arose from the dead as the "firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Cor. 15:20, 23). It was to the glory of God that Christ should be the first fruits, the antitype of the wave sheaf. The first fruits represent the great spiritual harvest to be gathered into the kingdom of God. Christ's resurrection is the type and pledge of the resurrection of all the righteous dead. "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him" (1 Thess. 4:14).

Reality of Christ's Resurrection

The reality of Christ's resurrection makes it "first" in importance because of the power Christ now has over death. "I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades" (Rev. 1:18, R.S.V.). To Him have been given the keys of death and of hell. Principalities and powers were made subject to Him, even while in His humiliation here on earth. The resun-ection of Jesus Christ has given to the believer freedom, freedom from the fear of eternal death and separation from God. Because Christ has the keys of death and power over the prince of death, He has given us security by the promise, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28, R.S.V.). Christ has the power to do this because He is Life. However, this eternal life does not mean release from all the troubles and sorrows of this life, but it does mean victorious living and security in the real sense of the word in any situation which death or life can bring.

We, in living, have security in Christ, for we know that neither life nor death can separate us from Him, and when the swift jaws of death take from us those we love our sorrow is buffered by that message of infinite hope that Christ has the power over death and Satan cannot hold the dead in his grasp when the Lord bids them live.

Christ Died and Came to Life

For the third time in the first two chapters, John records the reality of Christ's resurrection. Jesus tells him to write "'The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life' " (Rev. 2:8, R.S.V.). This perhaps would have a special significance to the early church. In the face of persecution the positive element of Christ having life after death would be a great sustaining factor. The resurrection of Christ was something that the members of the early church believed in with all their hearts; they knew that their salvation depended on connection with the life that Christ now has.

We must also remember that our salvation depends upon the fact that Christ's tomb is empty. The resurrection of Christ is not an old legend—John, along with the other apostles, testifies of this. The resurrection of Christ is the rock on which the Christian church is built. Even if all the rest of the great miracles of Christ were true, even if the whole life of Christ was exactly as the Gospels tell us; nevertheless, if Christ's life had ended in the grave, there would have been no church, no Christianity, no doctrine of the resurrection.

All believers everywhere must stake their hope in this one thing, and do as Paul did when he faced with honesty the grim alternative: "If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. . . . If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished" (1 Cor. 15: 14-18, R.S.V.).

But Christ Himself witnesses that He was one "who died and came to life" (Rev. 2:8, R.S.V.). It is because He did come to life that His authority is first, His resurrection is first, to them that believe.

The importance of the resurrection of Christ to the believer—the very kernel of the gospel—can be summarized in one sentence. Because Christ "died and came to life," by His death and resurrection He can make us partakers of His power and His glory.

Taken from:
The Reality of the Resurrection - by Kenneth Blanton

Lion King · May 8, 2012

Lysimachus said:
No speculation here. They were captives to Satan before they were converted. But our physical bodies are still trapped in this world of sin. God's people are "in" Babylon, which is why they are called to come out.

King Jesus will not resurrect His people physically unless they have resurrected spiritually prior to this.

What are you talking about? EVERYONE will be resurrected, both the righteous and the wicked will be raised at the end to face judgment.

Concerning Deuteronomy 34:5-6, it says nothing about his body being there. It says nobody knows where his grave is to this day. The grave may still be there, but it does not mean he is still buried there.

Speculation again.

Deuteronomy 34:5-6 states that Moses DIED and was buried by God. However, I will not argue with anything that you are trying to speculate here. Scripture and we will talk.

You obviously did not read everything I provided in my previous posts.

Concerning the "vision" in Matthew 17:19, you are missing the point. You fail to account for the other gospels:

Luke
9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father's, and of the holy angels.
9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment [was] white [and] glistering.
9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
9:32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
9:33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
9:34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
9:36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept [it] close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

Mark
9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh [with him] Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
9:3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
9:5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
9:6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
9:8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
9:10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

So we see that Matthew's account is the only one that uses the word "vision". Luke and Mark say "seen".

The Greek word for "vision" in Matthew 17:9 is "Heroma", which means:

Strong's #3705
1. that which is seen, spectacle
2. a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision

Thus, the "primary" definition of this word is that which is seen, or a spectacle. It can mean a literal spectacle. When you are watching a theatrical event, that is literally taking a place, that is a "seen" or "spectacle".

The context of the passages clearly indicate that Moses and Elijah were literally present.

Well, Matthew says it was a vision....

And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. Matthew 17:9

3705. horama
horama: that which is seen
Original Word: ὅραμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: horama
Phonetic Spelling: (hor'-am-ah)
Short Definition: a spectacle, vision
Definition: a spectacle, vision, that which is seen.

Given the context of the passage, I believe it was a vision as said by the author of Matthew.

False theology.

Genesis 2:7 - "And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath [spirit] of life; and man became a living soul."

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

The flesh and soul are not one and the same. Man can kill my body, but not my soul. The soul lives on....

Now let's find out what the opposite is:

Ecclesiastes 12:7- "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

We see here that God had the "spirit" of this person "before" he gave it. Does this mean Adam was trekking through space as a spirit before He breathed it into the body of Adam?

Absolutely not.

Death is creation in reverse. The "spirit" is the spark of life from God. It is God's life, not the life of the person. The recorded data, or the character of that person are recorded in God's Hard-Drive, but it is non-functioning. It cannot think.

God gave it, so it goes back to God. But that "life" or "breath" or "spirit" is not a self-existent, floating conscientious entity that can think, see, feel, or know. There is no praise and no knowledge in death.

At the resurrection, He'll take that programmed disk and pop it into a new body, and suddenly the computer will come to life. A computer is dead without electricity. The data goes back to God who gave it, but that data has no functioning power without a body. God is in possession of the data. God is in possession of the life.

The spirits of the righteous made perfect simply is referring to God's people who have been converted and made perfect, but there is nothing here about a state of existence without a body in heaven.

Stephen implored to the LORD to receive his spirit, meaning that although Stephen's died in the flesh, he is alive in Christ.

While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. Then he fell on his knees and cried out, Lord, do not hold this sin against them. When he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:59-60

Spirits of the righteous made perfect:

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. Hebrews 12:22-24

Read those passages carefully...

Everyone who believes in Christ lives on. Even if they die in the flesh; their spirit continues to live in Christ.

Jesus said to her, Your brother will rise again.

Martha answered, I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this? John 11:23-26

Do you believe this?

Lion King · May 8, 2012

Lysimachus said:
Nope. I already showed, "first-born from the dead" does not mean first in order, but first in importance, from the foundation of the world.

Repetition. Covered.

Amen. But this does not mean He was raised from the dead first in chronological order, but order of preeminence . Order of spiritual significance.

And they say nothing of what you say. You interpret these passages wrong. That's the bottom line. They do not say what you think they are saying.

If you say so.

Do you know how to put two and two together? Two and two together says the following:

1. Satan and Christ contended over the "body" of Moses. Jude gets this direct quote from Jewish tradition--that tradition taught that Moses was resurrected and went to heaven.

2. You do not contend over a corpse, unless the issue in question is over resurrection of the body.

3. Moses is seen standing with Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration. It was a literal event as I have already demonstrated above.

Deduction deduction deduction. It is irresponsible handling of the Word of God to form a doctrine off of single texts in scripture. Conclusions must be formed "line upon line, here a little, there a little, precept upon precept". It must be formed by comparing scripture with scripture, and deduction.

I take it you have no Scripture to present?

Why should I prove something I do not believe? Moses was not the firstfruits. His physical resurrection and ascension into heaven does not make him the "firstfruits", lol.

Didn't you just say that Moses was the first of the harvest in one of your earlier posts?

Remember this:

"Your friend Eric Lyons is wrong.

He ignores that Moses was the first to rise from the dead and go to heaven. Moses was the first to come from the grave, historically. Providence arranged for his reappearance to Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration, with Elijah. Here was a symbol of the dead who will be raised at Christ's coming, and of the living saints who will be translated. Moses was the beginning of the harvest, and Elijah, the grand consummation."

You do understand what first from the grave means right?

It's what the scriptures say:

Matthew
27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

1. They arose (came to life) at Christ's death.

2. They came out of their graves after his resurrection.

He took these captives with Him to heaven at His ascension.

What these scriptures "clearly" state do not contradict whatsoever what we have presented.

Being the firstfruits from the dead has absolutely nothing to do with the order of chronology, as I have clearly, unequivocally, and unapologetically demonstrated by those scriptures which testify that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. Israel was "sent redemption" and their sins were "blotted out" some 700 years before the event actually occurred.

Yet the sins of Israelites were taken care of long before Christ's physical death.

Likewise, Moses, when He died and resurrected, did so by virtue of Christ's future resurrection which was recognized as the "firstfruits".

Very plain. Very simple.

Let's not keep going over this point over and over again.

ok for the last time, do you actually have any SCRIPTURES that attest to Moses being resurrected?

No assumptions please.

Lysimachus · May 8, 2012

Lion King said:
Was Abraham and the rest of the righteous dead, CAPTIVES of satan before the death and resurrection of Christ?

Scriptures says NO!

The righteous perish, and no one takes it to heart; the devout are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest as they lie in death. Isaiah 57:1-2

Strawman argument. I never said that these righteous men were captive to sin. The "captivity" is simply referring to the bodily captivity to this world, just as Daniel was captive in Babylon. It does not mean they were sinful.

Christ brought resurrected and took trophies with him to heaven.

Lion King said:
The spirits of all those who have died are in heaven (Mount Zion/heavenly Jerusalem) with the LORD. As it is written:

While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:59-60

It says nothing about these spirits having conscious thoughts. No one can think or see or feel until they are in a body. Otherwise, these texts would contradict the plain declarations of Scripture that there is no consciousness or knowledge in death.

Don't keep repeating yourself.

Lion King said:
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. Hebrews 12:22-24

I'm not sure what exactly you think you are accomplishing by repeating yourself. I already addressed this text. It does not say these spirits are in heaven. We are spirits. You are a spirit. Yes, a spirit with a body. But we are spirits. Christ is daily making us perfect into His likeness. Our citizenship is in the heavenly New Jerusalem, but we are down here on earth. It does not say their spirits are IN the city.

One more time, don't keep arguing this point. We have gone over it.

Also, Christ spoke to the spirits in prison--that is, in prison to sin, during the time of Noah through Noah's preaching. See 1 Peter 3:18-20. Thus, we see, that "spirits" do not mean conscious entities without a body. It has to do with the inward souls of men, who are bound to sin.

Lion King said:
How were they resurrected in their glorified bodies when the Scriptures say that Christ is the first-fruits of the harvest, and everyone else will be resurrected at His second coming?

Are we back to arguing over "point in time"?

Lion King said:
But in fact, Christ has been raised from the dead. He is the first of a great harvest of all who have died.

So you see, just as death came into the world through a man, now the resurrection from the dead has begun through another man. Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life. But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised as the first of the harvest; then all who belong to Christ will be raised when he comes back.

After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24

As I have already shown, we are not discussing a point in time here. It cannot be, for the scriptures would then contradict itself. People do not go to heaven consciously in spirit form without a body. The doctrine of the immortality of the soul is the gateway to spiritualism. It is a pagan doctrine.

Lion King said:
PS. The dead in Christ are never referred to as CAPTIVES. As I said to you earlier, the captives were the enemies of Christ defeated at the cross, that were led away in victory by Christ.

He led the captives, meaning (they were captive in the grave), to heaven.

Those who had been raised were presented as trophies to the heavenly universe—samples of the resurrection of all who receive and believe in Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour. They were a symbol of the final resurrection of the righteous. That same power that has raised Christ from the dead will raise His church—as His bride—and glorify it, with Christ, above all principalities, above all powers, above every name that is named, not only in this world, but in the heavenly courts, the world above. . . .

Christ was the firstfruits of them that slept. This very scene, the resurrection of Christ from the dead, was observed in type by the Jews at one of their sacred feasts, called the feast of the Jews. They came up to the temple when the firstfruits had been gathered in, and held a feast of thanksgiving. The firstfruits of the harvest crop was sacredly dedicated to the Lord. . . .

As Christ ascends while in the act of blessing His disciples, an army of angels encircles Him as a cloud. Christ takes with Him the multitude of captives as His trophy. He will Himself bring to the Father the firstfruits of them that slept, to present them to God as an assurance that He is conqueror over death and the grave.

Lion King said:
How can they be resurrected to live forever before their appointed time?

They were resurrected, but they went to heaven with Christ at His ascension. When you return from battle, you bring home spoils of war. Had Christ not brought to heaven anyone at His ascension, it would completely destroy the meaning of "led captivity captive" or "led a host of captives" (Eph 4:8, ESV).

You are creating a strawman argument. "Appointed time" does not mean it must only transpire after Christ's ascension.

Lion King said:
As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance. Daniel 12:13

Yes, Daniel is still in his grave. It does not say "all" Old Testament saints were resurrected. It is says "many bodies of the saints". We are not sure which ones these were, but they may have been only Old Testament martyrs.

Lion King said:
As I have already explained to you on numerous occasions, those who die in Christ are never referred to as captives of satan, sin or death. Those who die believing in the LORD will rest in peace as explained by Isaiah:

The righteous perish, and no one takes it to heart; the devout are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest as they lie in death. Isaiah 57:1-2

"When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives"

The above statement simply means that Christ led away the enemies of God (satan, death, sin) who had been defeated by the cross. Ask yourself this, why would Christ lead CAPTIVE a host of captives? If theses captives were the saints resurrected as you claim, why would Christ lead them in captive?

Job 17:13 If I wait, the grave [is] mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.

Ezekiel 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

The grave is often called the "pit". When you are in the grave, you are "captive" until the resurrection.

Joseph was a captive in Egypt, yet he was a saint. It does not mean captive to sin in every instance.

In Psalms 137 we find the following:

137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
137:2 We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.
137:3 For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us [required of us] mirth, [saying], Sing us [one] of the songs of Zion.
137:4 How shall we sing the LORD's song in a strange land?
137:5 If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget [her cunning].
137:6 If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.
137:7 Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Raze [it], raze [it, even] to the foundation thereof.
137:8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy [shall he be], that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
137:9 Happy [shall he be], that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

We thus see the important typology here. God's people are on this earth. These are righteous people that are "captive". This earth in its fallen condition represents Babylon. Jesus is going to be the antitype of Cyrus who comes from the East, delivers us, who are captive in Babylon, and will set us free by taking us home.

The saints that resurrected and ascended with Christ are a small type of the great and final completion of the firstfruits in the last days. Christ never returns home without trophies. Men like Abel waited long enough (who was most likely among those resurrected and ascended to heaven, as he was a martyr).

Lion King said:
Again, please show me the Scriptures which state that Moses was resurrected?

I already gave you the scriptures that should produce the logical conclusion I gave you. If that is not sufficient for you, then that is your problem, not mine. Moses' body was contended for (not his corpse). Moses was seen with Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration. Scriptures do not teach that man goes to heaven without a body. Ultimate result after breaking down the scriptures: Moses was resurrected. No more ifs, ands or buts about it.

Lion King said:
Was just correcting your error, where you falsely claimed that the saints will be taken to heaven after resurrection of the dead. That's all.

Calling truth error won't make it anymore error.

Lysimachus · May 8, 2012

Lion King said:
What are you talking about? EVERYONE will be resurrected, both the righteous and the wicked will be raised at the end to face judgment.

Speculation again.

Deuteronomy 34:5-6 states that Moses DIED and was buried by God. However, I will not argue with anything that you are trying to speculate here. Scripture and we will talk.

No speculation. Moses and Elijah were "seen" by the Apostles after they woke up. It was no dream, but something they saw. The Greek word for "vision" also can mean something that is literally seen--an event transpiring.

Moses "died", and was then resurrected sometime later. This is why they were contending over the body of Moses. Michael was going to resurrect him, Satan disagreed that Michael had the right to do this.

Once again, too much repetition. Save me the gray hairs.

Lion King said:
Well, Matthew says it was a vision....

And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. Matthew 17:9

3705. horama
horama: that which is seen
Original Word: ὅραμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: horama
Phonetic Spelling: (hor'-am-ah)
Short Definition: a spectacle, vision
Definition: a spectacle, vision, that which is seen.

Given the context of the passage, I believe it was a vision as said by the author of Matthew.

It was an actual event transpiring before them. Luke and Mark confirm this fact as already shown. They left the word "vision" out of it. Matthew was the only one to use the word "vision", which proves that Matthew was simply utilizing in a way to mean something "that which was seen".

I have already refuted the notion that "vision" always means something that is not really happening literally. Scholars are agreed that this was an actual event. Elijah was taken to heaven.

Critics against this being an actual event are forced to do this because they refuse to accept that Moses resurrected and went to heaven. They know that if they accept this to be an actual event, it explodes their whole premise that nobody went to heaven before Christ.

They just want to have to accept what the scriptures plainly declare.

Lion King said:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

The flesh and soul are not one and the same. Man can kill my body, but not my soul. The soul lives on....

Wrong interpretation.

Matthew 10:28: “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Jesus clearly teaches in this text that the soul is not naturally immortal. It can and will be destroyed in hell. But what does He mean about killing the body, but not the soul? Is it possible for the soul to exist apart from the body? Some say it is, but the Bible indicates otherwise.

The Hebrew word “psuche” has been translated “soul” in this text, but in forty other texts it has been translated “life.” For example, Jesus said, “Whosoever will lose his life [psuche] for my sake shall find it.” Matthew 16:25. Obviously, “psuche” could not mean soul in this instance, or people could be said to lose their soul for Christ’s sake. It is properly translated “life.”

But what of Matthew 10:28? Put in the word “life” instead of “soul” and the text makes perfect sense in its consistency with the rest of the Bible. The contrast is between one who can take the physical life, and He who can take away eternal life. Here is proof in the words of Jesus: “And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell.” Luke 12:4, 5.

In other words, the word “soul” here means not only life, but also eternal life. Notice that Luke says everything just like Matthew except that he does not say “kills the soul.” Instead, he says, “cast into hell.” They mean the same thing. Men can only kill the body and take away the physical life. God will cast into hell and take away eternal life. Not only will their bodies be destroyed in that fire, but also their lives will be snuffed out for all eternity.

Extracted from: The Rich Man & Lazarus ~ by Dennis Crews

Other scriptures clarify when this "casting into hell" takes place. According to the words of Jesus, this takes place "at the end of the age" (Mathew 13:40-42, 49, 50)

Scripture with scripture my friend!

Lion King said:
Stephen implored to the LORD to receive his spirit, meaning that although Stephen's died in the flesh, he is alive in Christ.

While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:59-60

Nothing here about Stephen being some floating conscious entity. His "life" went back to God who gave it. The spirit goes back to God who gave it. God gave it--means--He had it before. Are you saying Stephen was trekking through space before God gave it to Him? The electricity goes back to the power grid once you unplug your computer. The computer data is in tact, but it has no life. All that data will be restored to a new Hard Drive (new body) when God resurrects His saints.

Even animals have spirits according to Ecclesiastes 3:21 - "Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?"

Does this mean that beasts can think and feel in spirit form down under the earth?

No. The reason why the spirits of man goes upward is because they go on record for the judgment, whether it be the First Resurrection of the Righteous at the Second Advent, or the Second Resurrection of the wicked at the Third Advent at the end of the millennium.

Notice too that the spirit of "EVERY" man goes "upward".

Does this mean that wicked are enjoying the paradise of heaven?

Of course not. Notice that the context of Ecclesiastes 3 is concerning the estate of "all men", both the righteous and the wicked. In Ecclesiastes 12:7, it is referring to the death of "men" in general. It is clear, the spirit of all men return to God. And since wicked people do not go to heaven at death, saying that the spirit of the righteous goes to heaven at death is unwarranted and unbiblical.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

Notice that it does not say "for dust your body art, and nto dust your body shalt thou return."

No. The text does not say that. It says "thou"--meaning, the entire being, body + spirit. It is the Spirit that makes "you"--it is what makes your "character".

Lion King said:
Spirits of the righteous made perfect:

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. Hebrews 12:22-24

Read those passages carefully...

Everyone who believes in Christ lives on. Even if they die in the flesh; their spirit continues to live in Christ.

More repetition.

Pastor Bohr has an entire sermon on what "the spirits of the righteous made perfect" means. Through in-depth scriptures, he proves this not to be anyone dwelling in heaven. The text does not say that.

Everyone lives on, but there is a space of "sleep" prior to the resurrection.

Scriptures teach that dead people are "sleep". Not their bodies, but "them", "they". The entire person sleeps.

When Jesus comes, we will all go to heaven TOGETHER!

Lion King said:
Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:23-26

Do you believe this?

Most assuredly. Therefore, no one goes to heaven without a body.

You do not possibly think Martha believed that Lazarus' spirit was in heaven consciously do you? If so, why was she grieving so hard? The resurrection was her joy.

Poor Lazarus, here he's enjoying paradise in heaven for 4 days in spirit form, and then suddenly he's called down to hop right back into his body and go through the woes and misery of this sin-ridden planet?

Seriously Lion King?

I find this very unattractive, distasteful, and illogical theology.

If I were an atheist, I would be laughing at this theology right now.

3 Angels Messages · May 8, 2012

Lion King said:
ok for the last time, do you actually have any SCRIPTURES that attest to Moses being resurrected?...

...again please see the latter half of the post:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-4/#post60485547

Repost +:

Furthermore the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, and sware that I should not go over Jordan... Deuteronomy 4:21;p

But I must die in this land, I must not go over Jordan... Deuteronomy 4:22;p

So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. Deuteronomy 34:5

And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. Deuteronomy 34:6

Notice that it was "the LORD" who buried Moses "in a valley in the land of Moab", so that "no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day." Christ Jesus/Michael kept the burial place of Moses a secret, so that they [the peoples Israel] would not seek to worship him in death, nor his place of burial.

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Jude 1:9

Notice that Michael ["Who is like unto God?"], contends with the devil who is resisting Him about raising Moses to life, hence "disputed about the body of Moses". For the devil [satan] claimed Moses was his captive in death ["...him that had the power of death, that is, the devil." Hebrews 2:14;p], since Moses had sinned in striking the rock twice, disobeying the LORD, who had said, only speak to it [Numbers 20:8].

Since Christ Jesus is Michael, we know that JESUS is the "...I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" John 11:25;p

We see that Moses was raised from the Dead and the Grave by MICHAEL [for whose voice can raise the dead?, "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven ...with the voice of the archangel...the dead in Christ shall rise..." 1 Thessalonians 4:16;p]?

Turning to the Gospels:

...Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, Matthew 17:1;p

And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. Matthew 17:2

"transfigured before them", in their direct eyesight.

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. (Matthew 17:3)[Elijah never died, for he was translated alive and taken up into Heaven]

"behold": "idou" "ἰδού"; meaning: "1) behold, see, lo[ok]" [Strong's Concordance] [see also Thayer's Lexicon and Vine's Expository]

"appeared": "optanomai" "ὀπτάνομαι"; meaning: "1) to look at, behold; 2) to allow one's self to be seen, to appear" [Strong's Concordance] [see also Thayer's Lexicon and Vine's Expository]

And when the disciples heard [it], they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. Matthew 17:6

And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. Matthew 17:8

Notice, that after falling upon their faces and hiding, they then lifted their "eyes" and "saw no man, save jesus only", which means that they had literally seen two others [context], namely Moses and Elijah [Elias] before.

And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. (Mark 9:4) -take careful note that this appearance of Moses and Elijah was no mere dream or vision, but truly happened -

They saw "Moses" actually "talking with Jesus".

But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. Luke 9:32

Notice this passage says that they were "awake" [and some translations say, "fully awake"; ASV, BBE, DET, WEB, etc] and "saw his glory" and "the two men that stood with him".

And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean. (Mark 9:10)

Notice, that once they had seen the resurrected Moses and the Translated Elijah [Elias], they [Peter, james and John] then questioned Jesus on their resurrection, saying "the rising from the dead should mean"... , for they had truly seen Moses "ris[en] from the dead" and glorified in white raiment.

...Now to Peter's later account.

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2 Peter 1:16

For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 2 Peter 1:17

And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 2 Peter 1:18

Notice, Peter specifically says that they were "with him [Jesus] in the holy mount" and were "eyewitnesses" [they literally saw the event] of the Transfiguration of Jesus Christ, and "heard" "the voice" [of the Father].

"eyewitnesses": "epoptēs" "ἐπόπτης"; meaning: "1) an overseer, inspector; 2) spectator, eye witness of anything" [Strong's Concordance]; "...to be used here to designate those privileged to be present at the heavenly spectacle of the transfiguration of Christ." Thayer's lexicon]; "Eyewitness: primarily "an overseer" (epi, "over"), then, a "spectator, an eye-witness" of anything, is used in 2 Peter 1:16 of those who were present at the transfiguration of Christ. ... Cp. epopteuo, "to behold," 1 Peter 2:12, 3:2." [Vine's Expository]

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses..." (Romans 5:14;p), for we see that Christ Jesus/Michael Raised Moses, for Enoch and Elijah never died, [There is an awesome typology given here [Moses, Elijah and Jesus, all glorified] that Peter also addresses in His epistles, which can be discussed later], while others were raised and died again, awaiting their resurrection still in sleep [as all of scripture describes], but yet others like the Saducees of old, are actually denying the resurrection, by teaching the spiritism of Roman [Platonic dualism] theology....

The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, Matthew 22:23

Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying, Mark 12:18

Then came to [him] certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, Luke 20:27

"For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection..." Acts 23:8;p

...yet we see Jesus said to them...

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. Matthew 22:29
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, Matthew 22:31

And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I [am] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? Mark 12:26

But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Luke 20:35

Neither can they die any more ... Luke 20:36;p

Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham... Isaac, and ... Jacob. Luke 20:37;p

For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. Luke 20:38

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. Mark 12:27

3 Angels Messages · May 8, 2012

Lion King said:
...But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. Hebrews 12:22-24...

If we may continue a little more closely on the OP, which is Michael/Jesus? But to address this passage:

Let us look at the texts in the Light of the Word of God and continue with a little more context...:

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, Hebrews 12:22

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, Hebrews 12:23

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel. Hebrews 12:24

See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven: Hebrews 12:25

Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. Hebrews 12:26

According to the text [vs. 24], Paul is speaking again about the comparison of the Old and New Covenants, in that the New Covenant is more Glorious [and "speaketh better things than [that of ] Abel"].

Again, as Paul elsewhere does [Galatians 4], He uses the events at Mt. Sinai [Exoodus 19 and 24, "all that the Lord hath said we will do", promises of the people of their own strength to obey GOD, which elsewhere in Hebrews, are found with "fault" [Hebrews 8:8]] to represent the Old Covenant [vs. 18-21, "the mount that might be touched", etc] and the Heavenly Jersualem, which is Above, being free, to represent the New Covenant [vs. 22]. This comparison is again found in Galatians 4:24-26:

Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. Galatians 4:24

For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. Galatians 4:25

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Galatians 4:26

So in Hebrews 12:22, "unto the city of the living GOD, the heavenly Jerusalem" is the same as "Jeruslaem which is above is free...the mother of us all" in Galatians 4:26. Thus we can directly see the parallels that Paul is making in each Letter between the two Covenants, of Old and New.

Let us also immediately notice that these of the "general assembly and church of the firstborn" are merely "written in heaven" [apogegrammenwn; meaning "1) to write off, copy (from some pattern);2) to enter in a register or records;a) spec. to enter in public records the names of men, their property and income;b) to enrol" (Strong's Concordance) ie written down, recorded, registered, enrolled, etc] and are not actually and/or physically present there yet, since the Great Resurrections have not taken place yet, either the special, First [before 1000 years] or Second [after 1000 years; Revelation 20].

We find this elsewhere in scripture, where those who are in Christ Jesus are recorded, written, etc in the Lamb's Book of Life, while those not in Christ Jesus are to be removed, blotted, etc from it:

"Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." Psalms 69:28

"...whose names [are] in the book of life." Philippians 4:3;p

"...the book of life..." Revelation 3:5

"...written in the book of life of the Lamb..." Revelation 13:8;p

"...written in the book of life from the foundation of the world..." Revelation 17:8;p

"...the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life..." Revelation 20:12;p

"...found written in the book of life..." Revelation 20:15;p

"...they which are written in the Lamb's book of life..." Revelation 21:27;p

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book." Revelation 22:19

These church members need Christ Jesus as their "mediator" [vs 24] of the New Covenant.

Paul is describing the life of the Christian and their experience in the New Covenant in these Hebrew verses, not ethereal immortal incorporeals.

Jesus Christ clearly said:

In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:2

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. John 14:3

Jesus Christ bodily ["flesh and bones"] and physically ascended into Heaven to a very real place with real "foundations", a real city in Heaven, that even Abraham looked forward to, that "place" Jesus has gone to "prepare", and Abraham still awaits for in death [sleep] until His resurrection, in which Jesus said "I will come again", even as stated in Acts 1:11 "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven":

"For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God." Hebrews 11:10

"And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." Revelation 21:14

"And the foundations of the wall of the city [were] garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation [was] jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;" Revelation 21:19

So as Paul says in Hebrews 12, a Christian comes to:

[1.] "to Mount Zion ... the city of the living God." [vs 22] Of which even Peter speaks the same of the Church on earth saying that they are, "lively stones, ... an spiritual house." [1 Peter 2:4-6], becoming a citizen of that Heavenly City, becoming part of the Temple of God.

[2.] "to an innumerable company of angels" [vs 22] of which explains the angelic ministry to the church here on earth in other verses, like "Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:" [Psalms 104:4] and "And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire." [Hebrews 1:7]

[3.] "to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven" [vs 23], which is still yet another description of the Body of Christ, the Church which is on this earth. Paul says basically the same elsewhere in Philippians 4:3, "And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and [with] other my fellowlabourers, whose names [are] in the book of life."

[4.] "to God the Judge of all" [vs 23], and parallels Pauls usage elsewhere in Hebrews by saying, "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." [Hebrews 4:16] and "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." [Hebrews 7:25], so we must come to GOD the Father, through Christ Jesus, by the Holy Spirit, while He is still able to make intercession for us.

[5.] "to the spirits of just men made perfect" [vs 23], this not meaning immortal incorporeal beings, ghost-men-essences floating in Heaven [a platonic dualism, which scripture no where teaches], but rather is speaking of the kindred spirit of Christian and Christian. Paul contrasts those who are walking "after the flesh", with those who are now Christians and are walking "after the spirit" [Romans 8:5]. So, these are Christians fellowshipping with other Christians on earth, who have been transformed by the renewing of the mind, by the power of GOD, comparing spiritual things with spiritual, in their experiencing the New Covenant, as even Hebrews 10:14 [and context] shows, "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." This is referring to "born-again" Christians, washed in the Blood of the Lamb, having the New Covenant and Law [Ten Commandments of God] written upon the Heart [Jeremiah 31:31-33; Ezekiel 37:26-28 [and context]; Hebrews 8:8-10, 10:16].Also see, "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;" [Ephesians 4:23] and "...ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;" [Philippains 1:27;p]

The people who have died [wicked and righteous], remain in their graves together, in death, in sleep [and thus are "alive unto God"] since they have not died the Second Death.

"[There is] no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; ..." Ecclesiastes 8:8

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7

His sons come to honour, and he knoweth [it] not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth [it] not of them. Job 14:21

But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he Job 14:10

... well "Where is he?" [context]

Notice, the "spirit shall return to God who GAVE it", that is "GAVE it" to you for the time you were allowed to be alive and once removed and returned back unto God, you no longer have "it" [spirit] [you no longer "retain" it] and are dead, in "sleep", the body returning unto dust which "thou" are, for out of "it" [dust] were we "taken", nothing but "dust and ashes" [Genesis 3:19, 18:27; etc].

These passages [Hebrews 12] really do not pertain primarily unto the current OP. Thank you.

The dead are dead, "asleep", until their resurrection, as all of the scriptures attest to. In the case of Moses, he was raised unto life by Michael/Jesus as the previous thread has shown. I do understand that this thread has partially touched on the state of the Dead, but that is not the main intent of this OP. Thank you.

BobRyan · May 8, 2012

In Matt 17 we know it was in bodily form - because Jesus himself was in bodily form and Elijah and Moses are speaking with Jesus -- and witnessed by the disciples.

In Addition - Elijah did not die - he was certainly in bodily form speaking with Christ in bodily form.

1. All three are seen together according to the text. We have no basis to "insert" that only Elijah and Jesus were "in bodily form".

2. Moses (as it turns out) is the subject of the book "The Assumption of Moses" which is about the bodily resurrection of Moses and his assumption into heaven.

3. Jesus in Revelation 1 is the "Firstborn of Creation" - it is pretty hard to argue that nobody was actually created before Jesus' birth.

4. Jesus is also the "firstfruits of those who sleep in the grave" - yet Jesus Himself raised people up from the dead - prior to his own resurrection.

One thing we can all agree on -- as of the writing of 1Cor 15 - it is doubtful that anyone else would be raised (as in the MAtt 27 case) and taken to heaven (as we see in Ephesians 4).

Deuteronomy makes it clear that Moses died and was buried and remained buried as of the "Writing of the book of Deuteronomy". How long after that did that story that Jude quotes take place? All we know is that it had to be BEFORE Matt 17 and Jude 7.

in Christ,

Bob

Lysimachus · May 8, 2012

3 Angels Messages said:
If we may continue a little more closely on the OP, which is Michael/Jesus? But to address this passage:

Let us look at the texts in the Light of the Word of God and continue with a little more context...:

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, Hebrews 12:22

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, Hebrews 12:23

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel. Hebrews 12:24

See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven: Hebrews 12:25

Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. Hebrews 12:26

According to the text [vs. 24], Paul is speaking again about the comparison of the Old and New Covenants, in that the New Covenant is more Glorious [and "speaketh better things than [that of ] Abel"].

Again, as Paul elsewhere does [Galatians 4], He uses the events at Mt. Sinai [Exoodus 19 and 24, "all that the Lord hath said we will do", promises of the people of their own strength to obey GOD, which elsewhere in Hebrews, are found with "fault" [Hebrews 8:8]] to represent the Old Covenant [vs. 18-21, "the mount that might be touched", etc] and the Heavenly Jersualem, which is Above, being free, to represent the New Covenant [vs. 22]. This comparison is again found in Galatians 4:24-26:

Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. Galatians 4:24

For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. Galatians 4:25

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Galatians 4:26

So in Hebrews 12:22, "unto the city of the living GOD, the heavenly Jerusalem" is the same as "Jeruslaem which is above is free...the mother of us all" in Galatians 4:26. Thus we can directly see the parallels that Paul is making in each Letter between the two Covenants, of Old and New.

Let us also immediately notice that these of the "general assembly and church of the firstborn" are merely "written in heaven" [apogegrammenwn; meaning "1) to write off, copy (from some pattern);2) to enter in a register or records;a) spec. to enter in public records the names of men, their property and income;b) to enrol" (Strong's Concordance) ie written down, recorded, registered, enrolled, etc] and are not actually and/or physically present there yet, since the Great Resurrections have not taken place yet, either the special, First [before 1000 years] or Second [after 1000 years; Revelation 20].

We find this elsewhere in scripture, where those who are in Christ Jesus are recorded, written, etc in the Lamb's Book of Life, while those not in Christ Jesus are to be removed, blotted, etc from it:

"Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." Psalms 69:28

"...whose names [are] in the book of life." Philippians 4:3;p

"...the book of life..." Revelation 3:5

"...written in the book of life of the Lamb..." Revelation 13:8;p

"...written in the book of life from the foundation of the world..." Revelation 17:8;p

"...the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life..." Revelation 20:12;p

"...found written in the book of life..." Revelation 20:15;p

"...they which are written in the Lamb's book of life..." Revelation 21:27;p

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book." Revelation 22:19

These church members need Christ Jesus as their "mediator" [vs 24] of the New Covenant.

Paul is describing the life of the Christian and their experience in the New Covenant in these Hebrew verses, not ethereal immortal incorporeals.

Jesus Christ clearly said:

In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:2

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. John 14:3

Jesus Christ bodily ["flesh and bones"] and physically ascended into Heaven to a very real place with real "foundations", a real city in Heaven, that even Abraham looked forward to, that "place" Jesus has gone to "prepare", and Abraham still awaits for in death [sleep] until His resurrection, in which Jesus said "I will come again", even as stated in Acts 1:11 "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven":

"For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God." Hebrews 11:10

"And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." Revelation 21:14

"And the foundations of the wall of the city [were] garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation [was] jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;" Revelation 21:19

So as Paul says in Hebrews 12, a Christian comes to:

[1.] "to Mount Zion ... the city of the living God." [vs 22] Of which even Peter speaks the same of the Church on earth saying that they are, "lively stones, ... an spiritual house." [1 Peter 2:4-6], becoming a citizen of that Heavenly City, becoming part of the Temple of God.

[2.] "to an innumerable company of angels" [vs 22] of which explains the angelic ministry to the church here on earth in other verses, like "Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:" [Psalms 104:4] and "And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire." [Hebrews 1:7]

[3.] "to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven" [vs 23], which is still yet another description of the Body of Christ, the Church which is on this earth. Paul says basically the same elsewhere in Philippians 4:3, "And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and [with] other my fellowlabourers, whose names [are] in the book of life."

[4.] "to God the Judge of all" [vs 23], and parallels Pauls usage elsewhere in Hebrews by saying, "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." [Hebrews 4:16] and "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." [Hebrews 7:25], so we must come to GOD the Father, through Christ Jesus, by the Holy Spirit, while He is still able to make intercession for us.

[5.] "to the spirits of just men made perfect" [vs 23], this not meaning immortal incorporeal beings, ghost-men-essences floating in Heaven [a platonic dualism, which scripture no where teaches], but rather is speaking of the kindred spirit of Christian and Christian. Paul contrasts those who are walking "after the flesh", with those who are now Christians and are walking "after the spirit" [Romans 8:5]. So, these are Christians fellowshipping with other Christians on earth, who have been transformed by the renewing of the mind, by the power of GOD, comparing spiritual things with spiritual, in their experiencing the New Covenant, as even Hebrews 10:14 [and context] shows, "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." This is referring to "born-again" Christians, washed in the Blood of the Lamb, having the New Covenant and Law [Ten Commandments of God] written upon the Heart [Jeremiah 31:31-33; Ezekiel 37:26-28 [and context]; Hebrews 8:8-10, 10:16].Also see, "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;" [Ephesians 4:23] and "...ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;" [Philippains 1:27;p]

The people who have died [wicked and righteous], remain in their graves together, in death, in sleep [and thus are "alive unto God"] since they have not died the Second Death.

"[There is] no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; ..." Ecclesiastes 8:8

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7

His sons come to honour, and he knoweth [it] not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth [it] not of them. Job 14:21

But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he Job 14:10

... well "Where is he?" [context]

Notice, the "spirit shall return to God who GAVE it", that is "GAVE it" to you for the time you were allowed to be alive and once removed and returned back unto God, you no longer have "it" [spirit] [you no longer "retain" it] and are dead, in "sleep", the body returning unto dust which "thou" are, for out of "it" [dust] were we "taken", nothing but "dust and ashes" [Genesis 3:19, 18:27; etc].

These passages [Hebrews 12] really do not pertain primarily unto the current OP. Thank you.

The dead are dead, "asleep", until their resurrection, as all of the scriptures attest to. In the case of Moses, he was raised unto life by Michael/Jesus as the previous thread has shown. I do understand that this thread has partially touched on the state of the Dead, but that is not the main intent of this OP. Thank you.

Brother, thank you so much for this deep insight. This truly enlightened me on the true meaning of these passages, especially Hebrews 12:23. It makes so much sense, and these interpretations are truly what allow the scriptures to harmonize and synchronize perfectly without creating contradictions.

Lysimachus · May 8, 2012

BobRyan said:
In Addition - Elijah did not die - he was certainly in bodily form speaking with Christ in bodily form.

1. All three are seen together according to the text. We have no basis to "insert" that only Elijah and Jesus were "in bodily form".

BobRyan said:
3. Jesus in Revelation 1 is the "Firstborn of Creation" - it is pretty hard to argue that nobody was actually created before Jesus' birth.

Dynamite.

BobRyan said:
4. Jesus is also the "firstfruits of those who sleep in the grave" - yet Jesus Himself raised people up from the dead - prior to his own resurrection.

Compelling.

BobRyan said:
Deuteronomy makes it clear that Moses died and was buried and remained buried as of the "Writing of the book of Deuteronomy". How long after that did that story that Jude quotes take place? All we know is that it had to be BEFORE Matt 17 and Jude 7.

in Christ,

Bob

"as of the writing of the book of Deuteronomy"

I like that.

Adam Warlock · May 8, 2012

No offense to anyone; just seeking understanding with this question. Is "The Great Controversy" an SDA doctrine or distinctive? I haven't encountered it before, and it seems strange to suggest that Jesus would struggle with one of his created beings when his power is infinite and the creature's is not.

Lysimachus · May 8, 2012

Adam Warlock said:
No offense to anyone; just seeking understanding with this question. Is "The Great Controversy" an SDA doctrine or distinctive? I haven't encountered it before, and it seems strange to suggest that Jesus would struggle with one of his created beings when his power is infinite and the creature's is not.

It is a "concept" (not a doctrine) that SDA's frequently refer to.

The controversy is not based on a struggle between Christ and Satan physically. The struggle is based on God's people.

While God is working on the hearts of men, Satan is seeking to destroy them. As long as their is wickedness in this world, and as long as this world continues to go on in its wicked state, with wars, famines, murder, crime, misery, woe, pestilence, etc., there is "controversy" between good forces and evil forces, just like there was a "war in heaven". But now Satan is trying to prove to God that no people can overcome sin. God is going to prove Satan wrong that through Christ's victory on the cross, He WILL have a people who, through Christ, will obtain victory over sin. z

Christ will be the ultimate victor, but God must have a people that will cooperate with Him, by serving Him from their own free will. If God forces people to love Him, Satan will cry out "foul play! foul play!". Thankfully, God foresees that God and His people are going to be the winner.

But it's going to be a nasty fight before it's all over. Satan will deceive almost the whole world through the Beast Power.

The Great Controversy - Michael vs Dragon

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Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

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Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

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Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

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Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

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Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

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