The Great Controversy - Michael vs Dragon

Upvote 0

Lion King

Veni, vidi, vici
Mar 29, 2011
7,360
578
Heavenly Jerusalem- Mount Zion
✟10,388.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
This was previously answered here [please see the latter half of the post, thank you!]:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-4/#post60485547

Could you please explain to me how Moses was resurrected unto immortality before Christ? Christ is called the FIRST-FRUITS for a specific reason: He was the first to be raised to live forever!

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24


Do you understand why Christ is called the first born of the dead (Rev 1)? It's because Christ was the FIRST to be begotten by God unto eternal life, when He was resurrected from the dead.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:18


_ _ _

And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers. God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:

‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.’ Acts 13:32-33


Christ is indeed the FIRST-FRUITS, meaning He was the FIRST to be resurrected to immortality. So, I really do not see how Moses could have been raised unto eternal life before Christ.
 
Upvote 0
3 Angels Messages said:


QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS about MICHAEL ARCHANGEL/JESUS texts:

Question 1:

Did MICHAEL/JESUS need help in fighting against Satan who was interfering with the Kings of Persia?:

But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Daniel 10:13

Answer 1:

No. It was the created angelic being "Gabriel" [withstood me] who needed the aid of MICHAEL/JESUS to fend off Satan [prince of the Kingdom of Persia] from interfering with the Kings of Persia, let us look at some context of this verse to see this and fill in some background:

But the prince of the kingdom of Persia [Satan] withstood me [Gabriel] one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael [Pre-incarnate JESUS], one of the chief princes, came to help me [Gabriel]; and I [Gabriel] remained there with the kings of Persia. (Daniel 10:13)

How can we be sure of this? By the context:

In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing [was] true, but the time appointed [was] long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision. Daniel 10:1

In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks. Daniel 10:2

I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled. Daniel 10:3

And in the four and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, which [is] Hiddekel; Daniel 10:4


Daniel has a vision, which follows up the previous ones in Daniel 2, 7, 8 [Chapter 8's vision is not completely explained and is explained further in Chapter 9]

Then Daniel sees JESUS CHRIST/MICHAEL HIMSELF in vision. How shall we know this?

By comparing scripture with scripture [However, to know this for sure and to fully answer this question, it will be further addressed in a question and answer to come.]

Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins [were] girded with fine gold of Uphaz: Daniel 10:5

His body also [was] like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude. Daniel 10:6

And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. Daniel 10:7

Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength. Daniel 10:8

Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground. Daniel 10:9


Daniel, upon seeing this "great vision" of JESUS CHRIST/MICHAEL, faints. These passages will be later compared to others in a following question and answer, so that all may know for certain that Daniel, indeed saw CHRIST JESUS.

But now, after fainting, another "hand touched" Daniel. Who is this? It is "Gabriel". This very same "hand" of the angelic created being "Gabriel" also comes to Daniel, being "sent" of JESUS CHRIST, in his other visions to help Daniel to "understand" the visions.

Compare Daniel Seeing JESUS/MICHAEL then fainting afterwards and getting help by Gabriel being sent of JESUS, "then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground" in Daniel 10:9 and Compare to Daniel 8:18 "I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground"

Daniel then speaks with Gabriel:

Compare "I am come for thy words" in Daniel 10:12, also "sent" in Daniel 10:11 to Daniel 9:21 "being caused to fly swiftly" and Daniel 9:22 "And he informed [me], and talked with me" and Daniel 9:23 "I am come to shew [thee]" and Daniel 8:17 "So he came near where I stood"

Compare "hand" in Daniel 10:10 to Daniel 9:21 "touched me" and Daniel 8:18 "he touched me, and set me upright"

Compare "understand" in Daniel 10:11-14 to Daniel 9:22 "skill and understanding" and Daniel 9:23 "therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision." and Daniel 9:25 "Know therefore and understand" and Daniel 8:16 "make this [man] to understand the vision" and Daniel 8:17 "Understand, O son of man" and Daniel 8:19 "Behold, I will make thee know" and Daniel 7:16 "So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things."

Compare "for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart" and "to chasten thyself before thy God" and "thy words were heard" in Daniel 10:12 to Daniel 9:23 "At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth" and Daniel 8:15 "sought for the meaning" and Daniel 7:16 "asked him the truth of all this" and Daniel 7:19 "Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast"

Compare "O man greatly beloved" in Daniel 10:19 to Daniel 9:21 "for thou [art] greatly beloved"

Compare "like the appearance of a man" in Daniel 10:18 to Daniel 9:21 "even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning" and Daniel 8:15 "behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man" and Daniel 8:16 "Gabriel" and Daniel 7:16 "one of them that stood by"

And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and [upon] the palms of my hands. Daniel 10:10

And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling. Daniel 10:11

Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. Daniel 10:12


But the prince of the kingdom of Persia [Satan] withstood me [Gabriel] one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael [Pre-incarnate JESUS], one of the chief princes, came to help me [Gabriel]; and I [Gabriel] remained there with the kings of Persia. (Daniel 10:13)

Gabriel continues speaking to Daniel about events happening and yet to occur:

Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision [is] for [many] days. Daniel 10:14

And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb. Daniel 10:15

And, behold, [one] like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength. Daniel 10:16

For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me. Daniel 10:17

Then there came again and touched me [one] like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me, Daniel 10:18

And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace [be] unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me. Daniel 10:19

Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. Daniel 10:20

But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that holdeth with me [Gabriel] in these things, but Michael your prince. Daniel 10:21


Notice that this last text in Daniel 10 again verifies that MICHAEL/JESUS is more knowledgable than Gabriel [and of course, He - Jesus - is God!], who has been speaking with Daniel the whole time about future events and prophecy. Notice that this text reveals that MICHAEL/JESUS is Daniels "Prince" ["your prince"]. The very "MESSIAH THE PRINCE".

Please refer back to the OP for more "Prince" texts of MICHAEL/JESUS.

We will also notice that in the Hebrew, there is no Chapter division, and Chapter 11, we see Gabriel continuing to speak...

Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, [even] I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him. Daniel 11:1

And now will I shew thee the truth. ...
Daniel 11:2;p etc.
 
Upvote 0

OpenDoor

Faith + Hope + Love
Apr 17, 2007
2,431
145
✟10,786.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Is Christ Jesus also called "the Apostle" [Hebrews 3:1]
apostle and high priest

"messenger of the covenant" [Malachi 3:1]
Since I understand the messenger who prepares the way to be John the Baptist. I think the text is referring to the same messenger since it is the same verse.

"the angel of His presence" [Isaiah 63:9]
This is probably refering to Christ. Some bibles read as "or Savior".

"sent of the Father" [John 5:23]
:thumbsup:
"the presence of God" [Psalms 68:8]
I'm not finding this in Psalms 68:8?
"the Angel of the Lord" [Exodus 3:2]

There is actually a lot of debate regarding this verse, but I would agree that God appeared to Moses in the burning bush.

"his angel" [Daniel 3:28]
This seems to just be referring to an angel of the Lord...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Could you please explain to me how Moses was resurrected unto immortality before Christ?...
Sure, Moses was raised in promise of the fulfillment of Christ's own resurrection to come ["he was raised to immortal life, holding his title in the name of the Redeemer"], and thus even appears on the Mount of Transfiguration raised, being sent of the Father, and so speaking with Christ Jesus who was about to go to Jerusalem to die and be raised. Moses could not have been raised beforehand otherwise. Therefore, all who are raised, are only raised because Christ Jesus was crucified, died and was raised [He being the firstfruits, and firstborn [iow, the pre-eminent]], etc.
 
Upvote 0

Lysimachus

Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations
Dec 21, 2010
1,762
41
✟9,605.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
Could you please explain to me how Moses was resurrected unto immortality before Christ? Christ is called the FIRST-FRUITS for a specific reason: He was the first to be raised to live forever!

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24


Do you understand why Christ is called the first born of the dead (Rev 1)? It's because Christ was the FIRST to be begotten by God unto eternal life, when He was resurrected from the dead.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:18


_ _ _

And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers. God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:

‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.’ Acts 13:32-33


Christ is indeed the FIRST-FRUITS, meaning He was the FIRST to be resurrected to immortality. So, I really do not see how Moses could have been raised unto eternal life before Christ.

This post I made may help you:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7557635/#post57423829

And also read my 2 posts starting here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7557635-2/#post57473226

It is a post proving that Enoch, Elijah, and Moses went to heaven in bodily form, including a number of Old Testament saints at Christ's resurrection.

The critics like to argue that no one went to heaven in bodily form before Jesus because He was the "firstfruits".

They are getting locked into a chronological "mindset", rather than the spiritual implications. Christ was slain from the foundation of the world, and while Christ's death and resurrection was yet "future", it was still before the foundation of the world legally speaking. Often times the scriptures speak of an event that is future as though it were past. Example: Isaiah 44:22 says that God had "blotted out" Israel's transgression and sins as a thick cloud, and that God had "redeemed them". Yet the physical transaction of Christ's death would not occur until another 700 years later. Another example is Psalms 68:18, where the patriarch David declared that the Lord "ascended (past) on high, that thou hast led captivity captive". David spoke about a future event as though it were past.

This same principle is to be applied for Christ's resurrection and the first-fruits. Physically, His death, resurrection and ascension occurred after some men were bodily translated or resurrected--such as Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and numerous OT saints at Christ's ascension. But spiritually, Christ had done all this before--which truly reveals what "first" really means. First as in matter of importance, not chronological order.

All those who were resurrected in Christ were a part of the first fruits--and those who are resurrected in the last day will be the completion of those first fruits. :)
 
Upvote 0

Lion King

Veni, vidi, vici
Mar 29, 2011
7,360
578
Heavenly Jerusalem- Mount Zion
✟10,388.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Sure, Moses was raised in promise of the fulfillment of Christ's own resurrection to come ["he was raised to immortal life, holding his title in the name of the Redeemer"], and thus even appears on the Mount of Transfiguration raised, being sent of the Father, and so speaking with Christ Jesus who was about to go to Jerusalem to die and be raised. Moses could not have been raised beforehand otherwise. Therefore, all who are raised, are only raised because Christ Jesus was crucified, died and was raised [He being the firstfruits, and firstborn [iow, the pre-eminent]], etc.

What? First fruits of the resurrection mean exactly that! Christ was the FIRST to be raised from the dead by God unto eternal life, not Moses. Moses is DEAD AND BURIED.

Please do provide the specific Scriptural passages where it states that Moses was has already been resurrected unto immortality?



PS. do NOT gimmie links.:)
 
Upvote 0

Lion King

Veni, vidi, vici
Mar 29, 2011
7,360
578
Heavenly Jerusalem- Mount Zion
✟10,388.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single


Again, please do provide the specific Scriptural passages where it states that Moses has already been resurrected unto immortality?

It is a post proving that Enoch, Elijah, and Moses went to heaven in bodily form, including a number of Old Testament saints at Christ's resurrection.

Didn't see the Scriptures where it said Moses was bodily assumed to heaven...

The critics like to argue that no one went to heaven in bodily form before Jesus because He was the "firstfruits".

They are getting locked into a chronological "mindset", rather than the spiritual implications. Christ was slain from the foundation of the world, and while Christ's death and resurrection was yet "future", it was still before the foundation of the world legally speaking. Often times the scriptures speak of an event that is future as though it were past. Example: Isaiah 44:22 says that God had "blotted out" Israel's transgression and sins as a thick cloud, and that God had "redeemed them". Yet the physical transaction of Christ's death would not occur until another 700 years later. Another example is Psalms 68:18, where the patriarch David declared that the Lord "ascended (past) on high, that thou hast led captivity captive". David spoke about a future event as though it were past.

This same principle is to be applied for Christ's resurrection and the first-fruits. Physically, His death, resurrection and ascension occurred after some men were bodily translated or resurrected--such as Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and numerous OT saints at Christ's ascension. But spiritually, Christ had done all this before--which truly reveals what "first" really means. First as in matter of importance, not chronological order.

Care to explain to me how it is possible that Moses was resurrected unto eternal life before Christ, when Christ is said to be FIRST-BORN FROM THE DEAD?

All those who were resurrected in Christ were a part of the first fruits--and those who are resurrected in the last day will be the completion of those first fruits. :)

No.

Those who were raised from the dead during Christ's time, all died again. Christ alone is the FIRST-FRUITS, and everyone who belong to Him will be raised unto immortality when Christ comes back.

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24
 
Upvote 0

OpenDoor

Faith + Hope + Love
Apr 17, 2007
2,431
145
✟10,786.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
What? First fruits of the resurrection mean exactly that! Christ was the FIRST to be raised from the dead by God unto eternal life, not Moses. Moses is DEAD AND BURIED.

Please do provide the specific Scriptural passages where it states that Moses was has already been resurrected unto immortality?



PS. do NOT gimmie links.:)
There are times when the scriptures use "first" to mean "preeminent".
 
Upvote 0

Lysimachus

Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations
Dec 21, 2010
1,762
41
✟9,605.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
Proof that Moses resurrected in bodily form:

"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." Jude 1:9

Are we to subscribe to the ludicrous notion that Michael and Satan were disputing over a corpse? A corpse that decays into dust? Obviously, the issue here is a bodily resurrection. People who are dead are already Satan's captives. Satan did not agree that Moses should be resurrected, but Christ won the debate and showed Satan that Moses was worthy of being resurrected and taken to heaven. This is the obvious context of the passage.

"And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him." (Matthew 17:3)

We already know that Elijah was "translated" without seeing death, just like Enoch. Are we to assume that Elijah appeared to Christ in bodily form, yet Moses appeared without a body?

I tell you, the perfidious belief in the Immortality of the Souls sure messes a lot of people's theology.

Rule of thumb:

Nobody has ever, nor will ever, go to heaven without a body.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
3 Angels Messages said:

Question 2:

Is not Gabriel the “Angel of HIS Presence”?:


And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. (Luke 1:11)

And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. (Luke 1:19)


Answer 2:


No,
Gabriel is not the "Angel of HIS Presence", but rather MICHAEL/JESUS is. Notice where Gabriel appears, "on the right side of the altar of incense".

Gabriel
is “an angel of the LORD” that is said to “stand in the presence of GOD”, which is different than the “Angel of HIS Presence”.

Standing
in another's presence is different than being the actual “presence of GOD” as MICHAEL/JESUS is:

In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. (Isaiah 63:9)


Also notice that
“the Angel of HIS Presence” was the one who saved them, and in HIS pity and love HE redeemed them, and that it was HE who bore them and carried them all the days of old. It was the “Angel [sent, messenger] of HIS [the Father's] Presence” that was afflicted in all their affliction. That is none other than MICHAEL/CHRIST JESUS [whom has always, "...
loved thee with an everlasting love..." Jeremiah 31:3;p]:

Thou hast with [thine] arm redeemed thy people,... (Psalms 77:15;p)

... the LORD, who redeemed Abraham... (Isaiah 29:22;p)

But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called [thee] by thy name; thou [art] mine. (Isaiah 43:1)

Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done [it]... for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel. (Isaiah 44:23;p)

Go ye forth of Babylon...say ye, The LORD hath redeemed his servant Jacob. (Isaiah 48:20;p)

But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. (Isaiah 53:5)

... he shall bear their iniquities. (Isaiah 53:11;p)

The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, [saying], Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. (Jeremiah 31:3)

For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him...(Jeremiah 31:11;p)

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (John 17:5)


QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS about MICHAEL ARCHANGEL/JESUS texts (continued):

Question 3:


"Is the SON of GOD, JESUS/MICHAEL, ever referred to as an “Angel” directly in the scripture [as Messenger of the FATHER, not a created being of the Heavenly Host]?"
Answer 3:

Yes. In Exodus 3:

And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush ... Exodus 3:2;p

And when the LORD saw ... God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses... Exodus 3:4;p

And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest [is] holy ground. Exodus 3:5
[recompare to Joshua before the "Captain of the Host of the LORD" [Joshua 5:14-15] - JESUS/MICHAEL]

Moreover he said, I [am] the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:6

And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people ... and have heard their cry ... for I know their sorrows; Exodus 3:7;p

And I am come down to deliver ... Exodus 3:8;p

...
I have also seen the oppression ... Exodus 3:9;p

And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them? Exodus 3:13

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: ..., I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14;p

And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations. Exodus 3:15

Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and [seen] that which is done to you in Egypt: Exodus 3:16


Yet, let us also hear and take notice what the wicked shall say:

And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee. Exodus 4:1

GOD HIMSELF, the SON [the Messenger/Sent/Angel/Apostle of GOD the FATHER] came down, MICHAEL, HE hath Descended and gave evidence... and GOD says:

That they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee. Exodus 4:5

Also, Yes. In Daniel Chapter 3, there is a direct reference to JESUS. There the SON of GOD is directly referred to as an “Angel” [as Messenger of the FATHER, not a created being of the Heavenly Host]:

... Lo, I see four men loose, ... the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. (Daniel 3:25;p)

... Blessed [be] the God ..., who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants ... that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God. (Daniel 3:28;p)


In fact, the whole of the Book of Daniel is truly about JESUS CHRIST/MICHAEL, just as the Book of Revelation is:

Yea, the whole Book of Daniel is about CHRIST JESUS/MICHAEL, the very "GOD/LORD/MOST HIGH GOD" [throughout the Book of Daniel, ie see Daniel 9:4, compare to Exodus 20:6 and John 14:15, etc] of Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah, and even later in life, Nebuchadnezzar...and it reveals the Love of HIM who is ever loving, ever watchful, ever interested, ever faithful, ever among HIS people and ever working on our behalf...

JESUS is seen as:

the "...Stone..." in Daniel 2:35,45

as "...the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." in Daniel 3:25

as "...[one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven,..." in Daniel 7:13

as "...the Prince of the host..." in Daniel 8:11

as "...the Prince of Princes..." in Daniel 8:25

as "...MESSIAH the Prince..." and "...MESSIAH..." in Daniel 9:25-26 [see Isaiah 61:1; John 1:41, 4:25; Luke 4:18; Acts 4:27, 10:38, etc]

as "...he..." who "...shall confirm the covenant ...with many..." in Daniel 9:27 [see Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Corinthians 11:25; Hebrews 2:3, 12:24, etc]

as "...a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins [were] girded with fine gold of Uphaz: His body also [was] like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude..." in Daniel 10:5-6

as "the Prince of the Covenant" in Daniel 11:22

as "...MICHAEL...", "...your Prince...", "...chief prince...", "...Great Prince which standeth for thy people..." in Daniel 10:13,21, 12:1

Yes, in so many other places [Joshua, Manoah, etc.] as is already witnessed in previous posts.

We may also consider that which is stated in Malachi Chapter 3 of JESUS, as the “Messenger of the Covenant”, which is a direct reference to the passages in Daniel:

Behold, I will send my messenger [John the Baptist, the forerunner, voice of one crying in the wilderness], and he shall prepare the way before me [Christ Jesus]: and the Lord [Christ Jesus], whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his [Christ Jesus] temple, even the messenger of the covenant [Christ Jesus], whom ye delight in: behold, he [Christ Jesus] shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. (Malachi 3:1)

Again, the word "angel" in reference to CHRIST JESUS/MICHAEL [caps merely referring to GOD, Uncreated Creator, as opposed to created creature] in no way signifies HIM as created, for the words simply means "sent", "messenger" and the context always dictates whether that which is in reference with it is the ETERNAL SELF-EXISTANT CREATOR GOD THE SON [MICHAEL/JESUS] and even the ETERNAL SELF-EXISTANT CREATOR GOD the HOLY SPIRIT [the "COMFORTER"; John 15:26] is sent ["send"] or someone who is a created being, deriving their life from the CREATOR, like "the angel" "Gabriel" or a Prophet like "John the Baptist", etc.
 
Upvote 0

Lysimachus

Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations
Dec 21, 2010
1,762
41
✟9,605.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
No.

Those who were raised from the dead during Christ's time, all died again. Christ alone is the FIRST-FRUITS, and everyone who belong to Him will be raised unto immortality when Christ comes back.

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24

Psalms 68:18 and Ephesians 4:8.

Those who resurrected at Christ's death appeared unto many, but they were never seen again or heard from again or alluded to again after Christ ascended to heaven. You can be sure you would have heard of them working with the Apostles, and they would have been everywhere. They appeared for a time while Jesus was on this earth, and went to heaven at Christ's ascension. You won't find one account of their continued earthly existence after Christ's ascension.

Those who are dead and are in the grave, according to a careful study of scriptures, are called "captives". Satan is the king of death. He is the author of death. A special group of Old Testament saints were resurrected and were set free from their graves, and ascended on High. He "led" them to heaven. They followed.

The triumphal entry of Christ brought numerous Old Testament saints with Him, in glorified bodily form.

This is yet another reason why tends of thousands of saints will be returning with Christ at the Second Advent.

As I have already shown, Christ being the "first fruits" has nothing to do with "chronological order".
 
Upvote 0

Lion King

Veni, vidi, vici
Mar 29, 2011
7,360
578
Heavenly Jerusalem- Mount Zion
✟10,388.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
There are times when the scriptures use "first" to mean "preeminent".

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood. Revelation 1:5
.
.
.

And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers. God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:

‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.’ Acts 13:32-33

.
.
.
.
regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 1:3-4



First means First in this case...Christ is indeed the First-fruits of the harvest. That is all.:thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

Lion King

Veni, vidi, vici
Mar 29, 2011
7,360
578
Heavenly Jerusalem- Mount Zion
✟10,388.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Proof that Moses resurrected in bodily form:

"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." Jude 1:9

Are we to subscribe to the ludicrous notion that Michael and Satan were disputing over a corpse? A corpse that decays into dust? Obviously, the issue here is a bodily resurrection. People who are dead are already Satan's captives. Satan did not agree that Moses should be resurrected, but Christ won the debate and showed Satan that Moses was worthy of being resurrected and taken to heaven.

Mere speculation. Disregarded.:)

So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day. Deuteronomy 34:5-6


PS. The dead in Christ were never captives of satan. Abraham, Abel, Moses, David were never prisoners of the devil or death. The righteous ALWAYS have hope even in deat; they have refuge in God!

This is the obvious context of the passage.

"And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him." (Matthew 17:3)

We already know that Elijah was "translated" without seeing death, just like Enoch. Are we to assume that Elijah appeared to Christ in bodily form, yet Moses appeared without a body?

I tell you, the perfidious belief in the Immortality of the Souls sure messes a lot of people's theology.

In bodily form? How do you know it was bodily form when it was a vision?

Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid. But Jesus came and touched them and said, “Arise, and do not be afraid.” When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.

Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.” Matthew 17:1-9


Rule of thumb:

Nobody has ever, nor will ever, go to heaven without a body.

Wrong.

The spirits of all righteous men are with the LORD in heaven.

While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:59-60

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. Hebrews 12:22-24

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8
 
Upvote 0
3 Angels Messages said:

"Angel"...

We are going to look at this word "angel" a little more later in another Question and Answer, that it is used even in reference to mere men, but let us for the moment go back to an objection that sometimes is raised in regards to Question 1.

Some have said that the passage in Daniel 10:21 and Daniel 11:1 show that it was MICHAEL who needed help because of the verse which says, "...
I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him" [Daniel 11:1;p], and these take the words "strengthen him" and use them to say that "Gabriel" strengthened "MICHAEL", the "him", but let us look even closer at these two texts to see that this is not so:

Yet, Jesus [Michael] was not the one who needed help as the Answer to Question 1 shows, but so that we may further see that...

The context reveals that it was Gabriel, who warred against Satan and needed the assistance from Michael [Jesus], and it was then that Gabriel came to Daniel, after being waylaid, and finally comes to "stand" for, "confirm" and to "strengthen" the "King of Persia", "Darius the Mede", the very "him" of the same verse in Daniel 11:1.

But the prince of the kingdom of Persia [Satan] withstood me [Gabriel] one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael [Jesus], one of the chief princes, came to help me [Gabriel]; and I [Gabriel] remained there with the kings of Persia. Daniel 10:13

But I [Gabriel] will shew thee [Daniel] that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that holdeth with me [Gabriel] in these things, but Michael [Jesus] your [Daniel/Israel] prince. Daniel 10:21

...again there is no actual Chapter divisions in the Hebrew...so we continue as normal, with Gabriel speaking...

Also I [Gabriel] in the first year of Darius the Mede, [even] I [Gabriel], stood to confirm and to strengthen him. Daniel 11:1


Here is some of the pre-context, in which Gabriel is sent by Jesus to Daniel, for we will notice that even in the previous visions it was Gabriel that always touched Daniel by his hand:

And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and [upon] the palms of my hands. (Daniel 10:10)

And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling. (Daniel 10:11)

Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. (Daniel 10:12)

Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, [even] I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him. Daniel 11:1


Again, looking at the text of Daniel 11:1...

"Also I" [the "I" is Gabriel, the one still speaking to Daniel]

"in the first year of Darius the Mede" [the only other person mentioned in this text]

"[even] I" [the "I" is again Gabriel, who is still speaking]

"stood to confirm and to strengthen him" [the words "confirm" and to "strengthen" are in regards to the "him" [Darius the Mede]. To "confirm" means to make to be "courageous, make resolute, to support" and to "strengthen" means to be a "place of refuge, a bulwark"].

Because of the manipulation of Satan [
the prince of the kingdom of Persia; Daniel 10:13;p] behind the scenes, trying to prevent the prophecies of God, Gabriel was sent to strengthen Darius to fulfill the word of the Lord.

The text is Chiastically sealed. A, B, A1, B1

A = "I", Gabriel

B = "Darius the Mede"

A1 = "I", Gabriel

B1 = "him" [again "Darius the Mede"]

Yet none even have to take my word for it, perhaps we may also consider another valuable commentary [not that they are the guide]? if not the context itself:

"Here, 1. The angel Gabriel lets Daniel know the good service he has done to the Jewish nation (v. 1): "In the first year of Darius the Mede, who destroyed Babylon and released the Jews out of that house of bondage, I stood a strength and fortress to him, that is, I was instrumental to protect him, and give him success in his ward, and, after he had conquered Babylon, to confirm him in his resolution to release the Jews,’’ which, it is likely, met with much opposition." - Matthew Henry Commentary.

...now let us look at this word "Angel"...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Lion King

Veni, vidi, vici
Mar 29, 2011
7,360
578
Heavenly Jerusalem- Mount Zion
✟10,388.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Psalms 68:18 and Ephesians 4:8.

Those who resurrected at Christ's death appeared unto many, but they were never seen again or heard from again or alluded to again after Christ ascended to heaven. You can be sure you would have heard of them working with the Apostles, and they would have been everywhere. They appeared for a time while Jesus was on this earth, and went to heaven at Christ's ascension. You won't find one account of their continued earthly existence after Christ's ascension.

Forgive me, but are you saying that the "captives" being spoken here are the LORD's children, and not the spoils of the war (satan, sin, death etc defeated at the cross) that were led away as the fruit of the victory?

And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Colossians 2:15

As I understand it, that passage signifies that Jesus Christ had achieved a complete victory; he had led all his foes captive. In ancient times, conquered kings and generals were usually tied behind the chariot of the conqueror - bound to it, bound together, and walked after it, to grace the triumph of the victor. Christ also gave the gifts of the Holy-Spirit to the Church.

You have ascended on high,
You have led captivity captive;
You have received gifts among men,
Even from the rebellious,
That the Lord God might dwell there.
Blessed be the Lord,
Who daily loads us with benefits,
The God of our salvation! Selah Psalm 68:18-19



Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead thy captivity captive, thou son of Abinoam. Judges 5:12

Those who are dead and are in the grave, according to a careful study of scriptures, are called "captives". Satan is the king of death. He is the author of death.

No.

The dead in Christ are never referred to as "captives", it is only those who are under the hold of sin, that are called "captives". Christ came to earth for that very reason; to set us free from the chains of captivity! So, how can you call those who have been freed, "captives" again?

The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised. Luke 4:18

A special group of Old Testament saints were resurrected and were set free from their graves, and ascended on High. He "led" them to heaven. They followed.

The triumphal entry of Christ brought numerous Old Testament saints with Him, in glorified bodily form.

Those saints that were resurrected during Christ's time, all died again. Only Christ has been resurrected unto eternal life, He alone is the first-fruits, and everyone else who belong to Him will be raised to immortality at the second coming of Christ.

This is yet another reason why tends of thousands of saints will be returning with Christ at the Second Advent.

As I have already shown, Christ being the "first fruits" has nothing to do with "chronological order".

Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Christ will bring with Him, those who are DEAD in Him.:thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

Lysimachus

Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations
Dec 21, 2010
1,762
41
✟9,605.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood. Revelation 1:5
.
.
.

And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers. God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:

‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.’ Acts 13:32-33

.
.
.
.
regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 1:3-4



First means First in this case...Christ is indeed the First-fruits of the harvest. That is all.:thumbsup:

I already refuted this. See: http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-2/#post60487508

None of these verses mean that Christ must have physically resurrected. The prophet Elijah resurrected a boy from the dead, so this totally explodes your premise.

The issue here is: First as in matter of importance.

Christ was slain from the "foundation of the world" (before any Lamb was sacrificed)

Christ ascended up on high. Past tense.

Christ "blotted out the sins of the world" -- before the physical transaction took place on the cross.

Thus, this is proof that the "first fruits" does not mean Jesus was the first to resurrect bodily from the dead.

While the physical transaction took place on the cross, it was registered as already having been done.

These verses here do not prove your point.
 
Upvote 0

brinny

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places
Supporter
Mar 23, 2004
248,786
114,476
✟1,339,865.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
The Great Controversy - Michael vs Dragon [iow - Jesus vs Satan]:

The Great Controversy [Book; PDF]

Who is MICHAEL ARCHANGEL according to the Word of GOD?

Why do I, and others, including respected, even well-known protestant Bible commentators believe that the scriptures clearly reveal HIM to be none other than CHRIST JESUS HIMSELF before HIS coming to this earth in which he then clothed His divinity with humanity?

Does this mean that CHRIST JESUS is somehow not GOD THE SON [the ETERNAL SELF-EXISTANT ONE, HE in whom is LIFE, unborrowed, underived, uncreated]?


No, in no way.

Please understand, that this study in no way degrades the Deity, Divinity [GODHEAD] of CHRIST JESUS, but rather it reveals that HE has always been the True and Ever-Living GOD who has ever taken a personal interest in us and battled for Truth and Life.

Please continue with me as we look into the Scriptures upon this subject. Also please know that this subject is meatier than a great deal of subjects and takes some time to go through, and some have a more difficult time with it than others, for there are a great many misconceptions out there on it, but we shall look at what even the great protestant scholars believed and wrote.

Why is it important to know?


This subject touches upon the Great Controversy between CHRIST JESUS and Satan that has been ongoing even until now, and soon to come to an end...

Let us see this Great Controversy:

Notice this unbreakable [John 10:35] structure of identification:

The Great Controversy, The Cosmic Conflict:

[War in Heaven]

[JESUS]"Michael" [Revelation 12:7;p]

[Satan]"Dragon" [Revelation 12:7;p]

[continued in the Garden of Eden]

[JESUS]"blood of the lamb" [Revelation 12:11;p] being that "lamb slain from the foundation of the world" [Revelation 13:8;p; see Genesis 3:21, 4:4, etc]

[Satan]"that old serpent" [Revelation 12:9;p, 12:14-15, 20:2; see Genesis 3:1,2,4,13,14]

[continued in the Earth]

[JESUS]"brought forth the man [child]" [Revelation 12:13;p]

[Satan]"cast out into the earth" [Revelation 12:9;p], "the devil is come down" [Revelation 12:12;p]

[continued in the Wilderness Temptations and Ministry]

[JESUS]"his Christ" [Revelation 12:10;p]

[Satan]"called the Devil" [Revelation 12:9;p] and "Satan" [Revelation 12:9;p] and "Being forty days tempted of the devil" [Luke 4:2, etc]

[continued at The Cross]


[JESUS]"the power of his Christ" [Revelation 12:10;p]

[Satan]"the accuser of our brethren is cast down" [Revelation 12:10;p]

[continued from then even until to this day...]

[JESUS/Followers]"remnant of her seed" [Revelation 12:17;p; see also "the seed" Genesis 3:15; Galatians 3:16 and also Acts 9:4-5, 22:7-8, 26:14-15]

[Satan/Followers]"the dragon was wroth" [Revelation 12:17;p], "face of the serpent" [Revelation 12:14;p]; "the serpent" [Revelation 12:15;p]

JESUS/MICHAEL: "Who is like unto God?" [Exodus 15:11; 1 Kings 8:23; Psalms 71:19; see also Deuteronomy 33:26; 2 Chronicles 6:14; Job 36:22; Psalms 35:10, 86:8, 89:8, 113:5; Jeremiah 10:6-7; Micah 7:18]


Satan behind the power:
"Who [is] like unto the beast?" [Revelation 13:4;p]

JESUS/MICHAEL: "...behold, the world is gone after him." [John 12:19;p]

Satan behind the Beast: "...all the world wondered after the beast." [Revelation 13:3;p]

So, who is MICHAEL according to the text?


It is none other than JESUS, GOD the SON, Uncreated Creator of Heaven and Earth and the Sea and all that in them is.

Revelation 12 seals the matter, permanently, but let us also consider many other texts so that there is no doubt whatsoever.

There are two "princes" [rulers] …

[1.] The Good [JESUS/MICHAEL, etc], the True and Everlasting "Prince" [GOD]

[2.] The Wicked [Satan/Dragon/Serpent/Devil, etc], the usurping "prince" [creature]

… let us look and see The Great Controversy still further:

[JESUS/MICHAEL]

"...the Prince of the Host..." [Daniel 8:11;p];
"...the Prince of Princes..." [Daniel 8:25;p];
"...Messiah the Prince..." [Daniel 9:25;p];
"...Michael, one of the Chief Princes..." [Daniel 10:13;p];
"...Michael your Prince..." [Daniel 10:21;p];
"...the prince of the covenant..." [Daniel 11:22;p];
"...Michael...the Great Prince..." [Daniel 12:1;p];
"...the Prince of Peace..." [Isaiah 9:6;p];
"...the Prince of Life..." [Acts 3:15;p];
"...a Prince and a Saviour..." [Acts 5:31;p];
"...Jesus Christ...Prince of the Kings of the Earth..." [Revelation 1:5;p].


MICHAEL is not "merely a Prince of GOD's People", but is called in many places "Prince" [usually the word is "Sar" and means "Ruler, Prince, Chief", etc]:

...so, when considering the word in this light, "prince" means "ruler" or even "chief", then the language is more clear.

...and so CHRIST is also called all of those other Titles and names as well such as KING OF KINGS [Revelation 19:16] and this is not merely saying King of Kings of the Earth, but rather is saying HE is King over all Kings [compare with 1 Timothy 6:15, "Only Potentate"], KING OF THE JEWS [John 19:19], KING OF ISRAEL [John 1:49], the KING THAT COMETH [Luke 19:38] and LORD of LORD's [Revelation 17:14], the LORD FROM HEAVEN [1 Corinthians 15:47], the LORD OF ALL [Acts 10:36], the LORD OF PEACE [2 Thessalonians 3:16] etc.

[Satan/Dragon/Serpent/Devil]

"...devils through the prince of the devils." [Matthew 9:34;p];
"...cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils." [Matthew 12:24;p];
"...Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devil." [Mark 3:22;p];
"...the prince of this world..." [John 12:31;p];
"...the prince of this world..." [John 14:30;p];

"...the prince of this world is judged." [John 16:11;p];
"...the prince of the power of the air..." [Ephesians 2:2;p];
"...against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]..." [Ephesians 6:12;p];
"...thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers..." [Colossians 1:16;p];
"...principalities and powers..." [Colossians 2:15;p].

...even Satan [the accusing usrper] is designated "god of this world" [2 Corinthians 4:4], "king" [Revelation 9:11], "lord" [Baal] [Judges 2:13], a "father" of the wicked ones [John 8:44], his "children of disobedience" [Ephesians 2:2, 5:6; Colossians 3:6]...

Let us look deeper to be sure, but before we do, let us see if we are standing alone in this, or if this is also witnessed by others from the scriptures themselves...

To follow will be quotations from many others who also held to this very teaching of scripture [Jesus Christ is Michael Archangel, Uncreated Creator, Eternal, GOD [the SON]].

However, it must be said at the very beginning, none of these quotations were known of, until far after the HOLY SPIRIT had led in Bible study and prayer over this subject.

Also, for the remainder of the study, the scriptures shall be the only source book, as they should be, and I would ask all to hear and consider the matter and study yourself, but let these be given so that all may know, that Truth can be known.

"He that answereth a matter before he heareth [it], it [is] folly and shame unto him." [Proverbs 18:13]

Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son of the living God, Who was God incarnate, Emmanuel, is not Michael the archangel.

Michael the archangel is created by our Creator. Jesus the Christ was not "created".
 
Upvote 0

Lysimachus

Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations
Dec 21, 2010
1,762
41
✟9,605.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
Forgive me, but are you saying that the "captives" being spoken here are the LORD's children, and not the spoils of the war (satan, sin, death etc defeated at the cross) that were led away as the fruit of the victory?

And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Colossians 2:15

As I understand it, that passage signifies that Jesus Christ had achieved a complete victory; he had led all his foes captive. In ancient times, conquered kings and generals were usually tied behind the chariot of the conqueror - bound to it, bound together, and walked after it, to grace the triumph of the victor. Christ also gave the gifts of the Holy-Spirit to the Church.

There are profuse scriptures that show that Satan's kingdom is the realm of death and destruction. We are trapped in this world of sin. In Judges 5:12; 2 Chronicles 6:37,38; Jeremiah 29:14; and Amos 1:6, we see the context of what "captivity captive" means. When Christ came to this earth, He conquered Satan, and He "delivered" the captives. When Christ ascended up on High, he "led captivity captive", meaning, He brought the spoils of His war. If He did not bring the captives with Him, what spoils did He bring? None.

Captivity to sin is intrinsically tied to "death". Death is swallowed up in "victory", when? At the last trump. See Isaiah 25:8; 1 Cor 15:55. So let us not separate sin from death. Christ actually brought up the spoils of War with Him to heaven. The glorious song of His victory is sung in Psalms 24.

You have ascended on high,
You have led captivity captive;
You have received gifts among men,
Even from the rebellious,
That the Lord God might dwell there.
Blessed be the Lord,
Who daily loads us with benefits,
The God of our salvation! Selah Psalm 68:18-19



Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead thy captivity captive, thou son of Abinoam. Judges 5:12

Correct. All this proves my point.

He ascend up on high, he lead his captives and brought the spoils of war with Him to heaven, THEN He gave the gifts of the Holy Spirit to men on earth, etc. etc.

No.

The dead in Christ are never referred to as "captives", it is only those who are under the hold of sin, that are called "captives". Christ came to earth for that very reason; to set us free from the chains of captivity! So, how can you call those who have been freed, "captives" again?

The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised. Luke 4:18

What are captives? Those who are attached to sin. What does sin lead to? Death.

When Christ went to heaven, did He just "deliver" the captives? No. He "led" them to heaven. He brought spoils of war to heaven.

Those saints that were resurrected during Christ's time, all died again. Only Christ has been resurrected unto eternal life, He alone is the first-fruits, and everyone else who belong to Him will be raised to immortality at the second coming of Christ.

I have already dealt with this argument. You cannot produce one scripture to prove that those who resurrected ended up dying again. History nor scripture supports this. I already explained what "first" means as well.

Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Christ will bring with Him, those who are DEAD in Him.:thumbsup:
[/quote]

But this is not what the text says.

The subject are those in their graves, not those who are in heaven. Paul is directing the sentence from God's location, that "God will BRING with Jesus those who have fallen asleep". Bring them where? To heaven. :)

Much scholarship has unequivocally demonstrated that the subject here is not bringing their spirits down to join with their bodies. That is ridiculous. Why not just give them a body while they are in heaven? Why come down, join with their bodies, then go right back up again?

That is foolishness.

The issue is that Jesus "died and rose again". This is juxtaposed to Jesus "bringing". That means in context of "rising", it is Jesus that will come down, and bring us up to heaven.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Lion King

Veni, vidi, vici
Mar 29, 2011
7,360
578
Heavenly Jerusalem- Mount Zion
✟10,388.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
I already refuted this. See: http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-2/#post60487508

None of these verses mean that Christ must have physically resurrected. The prophet Elijah resurrected a boy from the dead, so this totally explodes your premise.

Again, I will ask you: do you what it means when the Scriptures state that Christ is the first-born from the dead? It means that Jesus was the FIRST ONE to be resurrected unto ETERNAL LIFE.

In view of the fact that Jesus was not the first person ever to arise from the dead (cf. 2 Kings 13:21; Luke 7:14-15; Matthew 10:8; 11:5), some have questioned why the apostle Paul twice described Jesus as “the firstfruits” from the dead in 1 Corinthians 15. Did Paul err? Was he ignorant of the widow’s son whom God revived at Zarephath (1 Kings 17:22)? Did he not know that Jesus had raised Lazarus from the dead (John 11:43-44)? How could Paul legitimately speak of Christ as “the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep”?

One solution to this alleged discrepancy can be found in the fact that Jesus was the first to rise from the dead—never to die again. All who have ever arisen from the dead, including the sons of both the widow of Zarephath and the Shunammite (2 Kings 4:8-37), the daughter of Jairus (Mark 5:35-43), Lazarus, et al., died in later years. Jesus, however, accurately could be called “the firstfruits” of the dead because “Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him” (Romans 6:9). All others who previously were raised at one time, died again, and are among those who “sleep” and continue to wait for the bodily resurrection; only Jesus has truly conquered death. In this sense, Christ is “the firstborn from the dead” (Colossians 1:18; Revelation 1:5; cf. Acts 26:23).

Nobody, I mean NOBODY was ever raised unto immortality before Jesus Christ was.:thumbsup:

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24

_ _ _

The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.” But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit. What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later. Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven. Earthly people are like the earthly man, and heavenly people are like the heavenly man. 1 Corinthians 15:45-48

The issue here is: First as in matter of importance.

Christ was slain from the "foundation of the world" (before any Lamb was sacrificed)

Christ ascended up on high. Past tense.

Christ "blotted out the sins of the world" -- before the physical transaction took place on the cross.

Thus, this is proof that the "first fruits" does not mean Jesus was the first to resurrect bodily from the dead.

While the physical transaction took place on the cross, it was registered as already having been done.

These verses here do not prove your point.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8

Christ being slain from the foundation of the world illustrates not only that He was foreordained to be slain, but also that the efficacy, or the beneficial effects of that death, is the same as if that sacrifice had been made before the creation of the world. Thus, Old testament saints are washed clean in Christ's blood the same as we are today. In other words, the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice is not limited by time. God had already chosen who He would Save before creation, and had thus already ordained the Saviour to shed His blood for them, to make this possible. their Salvation wasn't something which could be thwarted, it was something which was as good as 'done' from the time that God ordained it.

However, Christ was LITERALLY slain and resurrected about 2 000 years ago. As Peter says:

For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 1 Peter 1:18-20
 
Upvote 0