Christians on Earth and on Heaven

BobRyan said:

Is the example of the witch of Endor - conjuring up the dead -- a case of a classic witch's variety seance or some thing that God is conducting?



Ok then -- seance it is.

In that case it is better to go to the Word of God for what is really happening rather than seek out the claims of the witch of Endor who is the only person in the room claiming to have seen Samuel after his death.

in Christ,

Bob

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Yes indeed, let's turn to the Scriptures for what is really happening.

You say that this was not Samuel and it is only the witch that claims it is Samuel. No where in the text does the witch make the claim that this is Samuel. But Scripture does. It says:

"When the woman saw Samuel"

So did the women see Samuel or not? Those are the words of Scripture, not the witch.

And Scripture says this:

"Then Samuel said to Saul"

and this

" And Samuel said"

So is it Samuel who is speaking to Saul or not? Scripture says it is.

and this

Then Saul fell at once full length upon the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel

Scripture says the words spoken were "words of Samuel".

So yes, I will indeed turn to Scripture, who identifies the person as Samuel. I can have an opinion as to why God allows Samuel to come forth, and that would be to demonstrate to Saul the cost of his disobedience more accurately than he would ever hear from any conjured demon. But I cannot have an opinion about whether or not it was Samuel who came forth and spoke, because Scripture says it is.

You, on the other hand have concocted a story not found in the text of Scripture that this is really the spirit demon the witch knows and she pretends it is Samuel. Please show the Scripture that states that. Because in my Bible, the Scriptures say the woman saw Samuel, and that the words spoken are by Sameul.

I understand that for this to be Samuel contradicts one of your core doctrines. But please don't tell me to turn to Scriptures and try to convince me that some made up story is there.

BobRyan said:

When Moses and Elijah speak with Christ in Matt 17 - "they can be seen" because they are very real. Elijah taken bodily to heaven, and Moses the subject of the book "The Assumption of Moses" as quoted by Jude in the book of Jude.

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While we're speaking of the subject of sticking to Scripture, Moses is not taken bodily into heaven.

Scripture attests that God himself buries the body of Moses, in a grave not known until this day. (Deuteronomy 34:5-6).

Jude makes reference to a Jewish oral tradition that the archangel Michael disputed with the devil over the body of Moses. That is not even recorded in the apocryphal work the Assumption of Moses.

Since Scripture tells us that Moses was buried, one must presume that the dispute occurs prior to the burial of Moses by God, in a grave that is not even known by the devil.

Again, if Moses is 'dead and buried' you have no out for the conflict your doctrine has with the fact that Jesus converses with him in the NT. So you've turned to extra-Biblical sources that contradict the Scriptural truth that the body of Moses is in a grave somewhere to try to retain your doctrine.

narnia59 said:

While we're speaking of the subject of sticking to Scripture, Moses is not taken bodily into heaven.

Scripture attests that God himself buries the body of Moses, in a grave not known until this day. (Deuteronomy 34:5-6).

Jude makes reference to a Jewish oral tradition that the archangel Michael disputed with the devil over the body of Moses. That is not even recorded in the apocryphal work the Assumption of Moses.

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It is pretty hard to make the case that the book "The Assumption of Moses" is not about the bodily "assumption of Moses" into heaven. Especially when you do not have access to the entire book so as to make that claim stick.

But I get the point -- you are "hoping" that the book "The Assumption of Moses" did not actually speak to the subject as named in the title.

Good luck with that.

In the book Michael is in dispute with the devil over the body of Moses - just as Jude says. That is not the hard part.

But Jude is not informing - rather he is reminding the reader of it - so the readers already had access to the entire work.

Since Scripture tells us that Moses was buried, one must presume that the dispute occurs prior to the burial of Moses by God, in a grave that is not even known by the devil.

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Not even remotely.

1. There is no such thing in the Bible as "a grave that is not known by the devil". No text says such a thing.

2. The dispute is not over burial - as if Satan is the only one on earth allowed to bury the dead. In fact for all we know - Satan never buries anyone. At least no scripture says he does such a thing.

3. The dispute is over the resurrection - because Satan claimed to have the power of death (and the Bible attests to this) and claimed those who died as his own. In the Bible God is at war with "him who had the power of death".

Hebrews 2:14
Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

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So the issue with the "Body of Moses" is over the action of raising Moses bodily from the dead and assuming him bodily into heaven.

Thus we see in Matt 17 - Moses is standing there bodily along with Elijah who was translated bodily into heaven (2Kings 2) - and both of them fully visible with Christ to the 3 apostles.

Unlike Samuel - who is merely a familiar spirit seen only by the spiritist witch.

Again, if Moses is 'dead and buried' you have no out for the conflict your doctrine has with the fact that Jesus converses with him in the NT.

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Certainly I agree that it would leave a lot of Bible contradictions if we allow ourselves to 'ignore the detail' of Jude quoting the "Assumption of Moses".

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan said:

(Catholic Digest is the 2nd largest Catholic publication on the planet – though it is not written by the Vatican itself)

Pagan prayer methods family gods vs Catholic forms of prayers to ancestors

Catholic Digest 12/1994 pg 129

“The Rosary is, unsurprisingly, Not mentioned in the Bible. Legend and history place its beginning in the 13th century long After the Bible was completed. As a Pagan practice, praying on counting beads goes back centuries before Christ…

Buddhists use prayer wheels and prayer beads for the same purpose… Counting prayer beads is common practice in religious cultures”.


​

Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129
Question:
“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”

Ans:
“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. [b]The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do[/b] to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!

The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!
They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!

​

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Ah, the pagan card. One always has to wonder when that will show up.

There is a long and historical tradition in Biblical Christianity of taking pagan concepts and 'christianizing' them. For starters, you can research the pagan understand of the logos before St. John identifies Christ as the logos.

Paul doesn't hesitate to tell people that God had witnessed to them through the rain and seasons, even though people had been prone to worshipping nature.

Paul doesn't even hesitate to use a pagan idol to an "unknown God" as an instrument to make God known.

God does not hesitate to use circumcision as an initiation ritual into his covenant even though it has been used for a simular purpose in pagan cultures.

God does not hesitate to use oil for consecration and annointing, even though pagans were doing that.

Christ does not hestitate to use water for baptism, even though pagans had been using water for similar rituals long before.

Pagan cultures worshipped serpents. Didn't stop God from having Moses put one on a pole as a foreshadowing of Christ on the cross.

Pagan cultures worshipped fire. Didn't stop the Holy Spirit from appearing as fire.

Pagan cultures worshipped the sun. Didn't stop Scripture from referring to Christ as the 'sun'.

Mrryh. Deep pagan roots (the tears of a goddess). Didn't stop Christ's followers from annointing his body after his death.

Rainbows. Would be worshipped by pagans. Didn't stop God from using one as a sign of his covenant.

Thunder. Thunder gods had a big pagan following. Didn't stop God from speaking as thunder.

The idea that 'things' are pagan is a pagan idea.

Scripture teaches us that everything in the earth is the Lord's. If that's true, then it can all be used to good for his purpose, including beads on a rope. The beads weren't created by a pagan god, nor the rope. It all belongs to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the LIVING. Please learn the meaning of:

"For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving; for then it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer."

Is the example of the witch of Endor - conjuring up the dead -- a case of a classic witch's variety seance or some thing that God is conducting?

Notice that in 1Samuel 28 Saul asks the witch to "conjure up for me whomever I will name".

Folks this is vanilla standard everyday witchcraft and seance.

Originally Posted by narnia59

Is she "in Christ"? Is her access in and through Christ? Is He the source of her connection? Is her 'connection' totally dependent upon her unity to others through Christ (God) or is she trying to do an end-run around God in an act of disobedience?

Based upon the legitimate questions, she is in no way experiencing the legitimate community of the body of Christ.​

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BobRyan said:

Ok then -- seance it is.

In that case it is better to go to the Word of God for what is really happening rather than seek out the claims of the witch of Endor who is the only person in the room claiming to have seen Samuel after his death.

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And in the case of actual scripture - God says that this seance, this conjuring of the dead is an abomination to him - for which he would destroy even pagan nations. Deuteronomy 18:9-12

narnia59 said:

Yes indeed, let's turn to the Scriptures for what is really happening.

You say that this was not Samuel and it is only the witch that claims it is Samuel.

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I say that only the witch claims to have the power to conjure up the dead.

Only the witch claims to see Samuel.

And the Samuel that is seen is "an old man" according to the text - the old decaying tent of 2Cor 5:1 not the new heavenly one. And according to the witch he is wearing his old cloak.

No where in the text does the witch make the claim that this is Samuel. But Scripture does. It says:

"When the woman saw Samuel"

So did the women see Samuel or not?

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Her familiar spirit appeared in the form of Samuel - so that much is true.

And 1Chronicles 10:13 makes it clear that Saul was dealing with an "IT" not a person in the form of Samuel.

"God became Saul's enemy because he asked counsel of a medium inquiring of IT" -- 1Chronicles 10:13... Who is the "IT" ?? It is the familiar spirit pretending to be Samuel.

Those are the words of Scripture, not the witch.

And Scripture says this:

"Then Samuel said to Saul"

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That is correct.

Just as "scripture" says that the "trees were talking one day" and decided to elect a king. Judges 9:8-15.

Just like the "scripture says" that "Able's blood is crying out to me from the ground".

Just like the "scripture says" that Jesus blood "speaks better than the blood of Able" Hebrews 12:24

They have to be read in context.

We cannot just leap on a tiny slice and ignore the context for "conjuring the dead" as given in this very chapter and as condemned by God in Deuteronomy 18, and the chapter says they are under the death sentence who act the part of mediums and witches conjuring the dead.

Nor can we ignore the fact that this very chapter is explicit that God is not allowing any prophet to minister to Saul. Vs 3-6.

Nor can we ignore the fact that the Bible says Saul is in fact "inquiring of IT" -- and the IT in this case is an evil spirit.

Nor can we ignore the fact that the Bible rests the entire case for the future resurrection on the Bible fact of soul sleep in Matt 22.

in Christ,

Bob

A number of Bible scholars that do accept the false teaching of immortal man - still make the obvious point that the seance conducted by a witch in 1Samuel 28, is nothing so pure as a real appearing of Samuel on the whim and demand of a witch.

James Burton Coffman writes -

[FONT=&quot]Others of the Ante-Nicene Fathers did not hesitate to label this alleged appearance of Samuel as a cleverly contrived fraud. For example, Tertullian discussed the episode as follows: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"In the extravagant pretensions of their art, the ancient ventriloquistic spirits even claimed to represent the soul of Samuel, when Saul consulted the dead after losing the living God. They can do so under cover of a lying wonder (2 Thessalonians 2:9). God forbid, however, that we should suppose that any saint, much less the soul of a prophet, can be dragged out of its resting place in Hades by a demon. We know that Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14) -- much more into a man of light -- and that at last he (Satan) will show himself to be even God (2 Thessalonians 2:4) On the aforementioned occasion, Satan affirmed himself to be a prophet of God, and especially to Saul, in whom he was then actually dwelling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"You must not believe that he who produced the phantom was one, and that he who consulted it was another. No! It was one and the same spirit both in the sorceress and the apostate king which easily pretended an apparition of that which it (the spirit of Satan) had already prepared them to believe as real. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Furthermore, Our Lord himself has established in the person of his representative Abraham (Luke 16:26) the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for the escape of souls therein. Because of this fact, it must never be supposed that there could be any relaxation of that rule to honor the arrogant pretensions of a sorceress."F18 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hippolytus also took the same view of this event as did Tertullian[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]Another Bible scholar that did not believe in soul sleep and yet could easily admit that the witches seance in 1Samuel 28 is not even remotely a case of Samuel being conjured up but rather it is the devil's business of deception - front to back.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matthew Henry – [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1[bless and do not curse]Samuel - Chapter 28 - Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on StudyLight.org[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot] III. He tells her his errand and promises her impunity. 1. All he desires of her is to bring up one from the dead[/b], whom he had a mind to discourse with. It was necromancy or divination by the dead, that he hoped to serve his purpose by. This was expressly forbidden by the law (Deuteronomy 18:11), seeking for the living to the dead, Isaiah 8:19. Bring me up him whom I shall name, 1 Samuel 28:8. ...

[b]But to think that any good souls would come up at the beck of an evil spirit, or that God, who had denied a man the benefit of his own institutions, would suffer him to reap any real advantage by a cursed diabolical invention, was very absurd.[/b]

...[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 1. As soon as Saul had given the witch the assurance she desired (that he would not discover her) she applied to her witchcrafts, and asked very confidently, Whom shall I bring up to thee? 1 Samuel 28:11. Note, Hopes of impunity embolden sinners in their evil ways and harden their hearts. 2. Saul desires to speak with Samuel: Bring me up Samuel.
...
God permitted the devil, to answer the design, to put on Samuel's shape, that those who would not receive the love of the truth might be given up to strong delusions and believe a lie. That it could not be the soul of Samuel himself they might easily apprehend when it ascended out of the earth, for the spirit of a man, much more of a good man, goes upward, Ecclesiastes 3:21. [/FONT]

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Quite often when you talk to Christians about the subject of soul sleep and the Bible texts that demand that solution -- those Christians will ask "yes the Bible does say that - but so many people are getting this wrong so what is the harm?".

At that point I bring up the witch of Enore - a true blue seance. And I say "do you know that a vigorous attempt to side step the Bible teaching on soul sleep will eventually lead to an appeal to the seance in 1Samuel 28??".

I basically point out that the hairs-breadth-distance between denial of the Bible doctrine on soul sleep - and an outright appeal to a witch's seance can be seen in real life. They usually are shocked that anyone would really go to the "conjuring of Samuel" as their proof text against the Bible doctrine on soul sleep.

And "yet" I point out to them - it is so. People will indeed go to 1Samuel 28 to make their case in that regard.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan said:

It is pretty hard to make the case that the book "The Assumption of Moses" is not about the bodily "assumption of Moses" into heaven. Especially when you do not have access to the entire book so as to make that claim stick.

But I get the point -- you are "hoping" that the book "The Assumption of Moses" did not actually speak to the subject as named in the title.

Good luck with that.

In the book Michael is in dispute with the devil over the body of Moses - just as Jude says. That is not the hard part.

But Jude is not informing - rather he is reminding the reader of it - so the readers already had access to the entire work.



Not even remotely.

1. There is no such thing in the Bible as "a grave that is not known by the devil". No text says such a thing.

2. The dispute is not over burial - as if Satan is the only one on earth allowed to bury the dead. In fact for all we know - Satan never buries anyone. At least no scripture says he does such a thing.

3. The dispute is over the resurrection - because Satan claimed to have the power of death (and the Bible attests to this) and claimed those who died as his own. In the Bible God is at war with "him who had the power of death".




So the issue with the "Body of Moses" is over the action of raising Moses bodily from the dead and assuming him bodily into heaven.

Thus we see in Matt 17 - Moses is standing there bodily along with Elijah who was translated bodily into heaven (2Kings 2) - and both of them fully visible with Christ to the 3 apostles.

Unlike Samuel - who is merely a familiar spirit seen only by the spiritist witch.



Certainly I agree that it would leave a lot of Bible contradictions if we allow ourselves to 'ignore the detail' of Jude quoting the "Assumption of Moses".

in Christ,

Bob

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Scripture says it's Samuel. No matter how much you try to change it to something else.

Let's try to stick with what Scripture says about Moses, okay?

Moses died and God buried him.
There was a dispute over the body between Satan and Michael.
Period. That's what we know from Scripture.

Where do you get from that Scriptural evidence that Moses was ever assumed into heaven? You don't. You want to pull in a non-Biblical source that showed up a couple of hundred years ago.

By the way, if you read the existing texts of the Assumption of Moses, the incident with Satan and Michael is not even there. So how do you propose to know that Jude is quoting that text?

Scholars think that maybe Jude is referring to the Assumption of Moses because Origen attributes his quote to it. So maybe some of the text of the Assumption of Moses is lost. Maybe not.

Even if Jude is quoting that document, that does not mean everything in the document is true. There are quotes in Scripture from non-Scriptural documents (Paul quotes pagan poets for example) -- that does not make what they quote from equal to Scripture or even true!

So, back to Scripture. We know that Moses died. God buried him. Michael and Satan at some point fought over the body. Period.

So are we sticking with Scripture alone, or not? Because nothing in Scripture that ever says God raised him up and took him to heaven.

But to support your doctrine you have to believe that Moses was assumed into heaven.

Reaching much?

Here we have well known Bible scholars who reject soul sleep and yet admit to the case regarding the book "The Assumption of Moses".

A.T. Robertson (on Jude 9)
http://www.studylight.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?book=jude&chapter=001&verse=009

The Lord rebuke thee (epitimhsai soi kuriov).
First aorist active optative of epitimaw, a wish about the future. These words occur in Zechariah 3:1-10 where the angel of the Lord replies to the charges of Satan.



Clement of Alex. (Adumb. in Ep. Judae) says that Jude quoted here the Assumption of Moses, one of the apocryphal books.


Origen says the same thing. Mayor thinks that the author of the Assumption of Moses took these words from Zechariah and put them in the mouth of the Archangel Michael. There is a Latin version of the Assumption. Some date it as early as B.C. 2, others after A.D. 44.

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[FONT=&quot]

J-F-B Jamieson, Fausset, Brown
http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=jude&chapter=001

about the body of Moses--his literal body. Satan, as having the power of death, opposed the raising of it again, on the ground of Moses' sin at Meribah, and his murder of the Egyptian.

That Moses' body was raised, appears from his presence with Elijah and Jesus (who were in the body) at the Transfiguration: the sample and earnest of the coming resurrection kingdom, to be ushered in by Michael's standing up for God's people. Thus in each dispensation a sample and pledge of the future resurrection was given: Enoch in the patriarchal dispensation, Moses in the Levitical, Elijah in the prophetical. It is noteworthy that the same rebuke is recorded here as was used by the Angel of the Lord, or Jehovah the Second Person, in pleading for Joshua, the representative of the Jewish Church, against Satan, in Zechariah 3:2 thought that also here "the body of Moses" means the Jewish Church accused by Satan, before God, for its filthiness, on which ground he demands that divine justice should take its course against Israel, but is rebuked by the Lord who has "chosen Jerusalem": thus, as "the body of Christ" is the Christian Church, so "the body of Moses" is the Jewish Church.

But the literal body is evidently here meant (though, secondarily, the Jewish Church is typified by Moses' body, as it was there represented by Joshua the high priest); and Michael, whose connection seems to be so close with Jehovah-Messiah on the one hand, and with Israel on the other, naturally uses the same language as his Lord. As Satan (adversary in court) or the devil (accuser) accuses alike the Church collectively and "the brethren" individually, so Christ pleads for us as our Advocate. Israel's, and all believers' full justification, and the accuser's being rebuked finally, is yet future.

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in Christ,

Bob
[/FONT]

narnia59 said:

Scripture says it's Samuel. No matter how much you try to change it to something else.

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And scripture says the trees elect a king in Judges 9. When we ignore context we can get a lot of wrong ideas.

That is a "given".

I prefer exegesis to eisegesis in this case.

narnia59 said:

Let's try to stick with what Scripture says about Moses, okay?

Moses died and God buried him.
There was a dispute over the body between Satan and Michael.
Period. That's what we know from Scripture.

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And we know that Moses appears in bodily form with Elijah and Christ in Matt 17.

And we know (even from scholars that reject soul sleep) that Jude is quoting the work "The Assumption of Moses" in Jude 7.

Those are all given.

Where do you get from that Scriptural evidence that Moses was ever assumed into heaven?

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Jude's quote of "The Assumption of Moses" comes to mind.

By the way, if you read the existing texts of the Assumption of Moses, the incident with Satan and Michael is not even there. So how do you propose to know that Jude is quoting that text?

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I agree that part of the text is missing - but the title is pretty instructive never-the-less.

Scholars think that maybe Jude is referring to the Assumption of Moses because Origen attributes his quote to it. So maybe some of the text of the Assumption of Moses is lost. Maybe not.

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I don't know of anyone that thinks that we have the full text of the book "The Assumption of Moses". I know that the compilers of the Pseudepigrapha claim we do not have the complete text - and that is where we go to find it.

Even if Jude is quoting that document, that does not mean everything in the document is true. There are quotes in Scripture from non-Scriptural documents (Paul quotes pagan poets for example)

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I agree but in this case Jude is quoting very section of the book that you would most like to ignore. While we can suppose that some other parts are not true if we like - taking the very area selected out by Jude and saying that THIS is the part of the book that is least trustworthy - does not work.

As I pointed out - even Bible scholars who reject soul sleep -- are getting this part of the topic.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan said:

Quite often when you talk to Christians about the subject of soul sleep and the Bible texts that demand that solution -- those Christians will ask "yes the Bible does say that - but so many people are getting this wrong so what is the harm?".

At that point I bring up the witch of Enore - a true blue seance. And I say "do you know that a vigorous attempt to side step the Bible teaching on soul sleep will eventually lead to an appeal to the seance in 1Samuel 28??".

I basically point out that the hairs-breadth-distance between denial of the Bible doctrine on soul sleep - and an outright appeal to a witch's seance can be seen in real life. They usually are shocked that anyone would really go to the "conjuring of Samuel" as their proof text against the Bible doctrine on soul sleep.

And "yet" I point out to them - it is so. People will indeed go to 1Samuel 28 to make their case in that regard.

in Christ,

Bob

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Perhaps because Scripture says that it was Samuel who came forth? Do you not believe God can thrwart the plans of demons for His own purpose?

There are many examples in Scripture where people who have died can be shown to be actively aware. You simply want to dismiss them, make them a symbol, make them a metaphor, ignore them, whatever, to support your doctrine.

We have:
Rachel's tears before God (Jeremiah 31 and Matthew 2)

the rich man and Abraham conversing (Luke 16)

Christ's testimony that Abraham had seen his day and was glad (John 8)

the martyrs in heaven crying out to God for justice (Revelation 6)

Jesus talking to Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration

The testimony in Hebrews that those who have died "surround' us (Hebrews 12)

The testimony in Hebrews that the spirits of righteous men made perfect are with God in heaven (Hebrews 12)

Jesus testimony in John 5 that "Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

The elders are seen in heaven (Revelation 8)

John 11 -- Jesus promises that those who believe in him will NEVER die

1 Thessalonians 5 -- Paul states that whether we wake or sleep we live with him

BobRyan said:

And scripture says the trees elect a king in Judges 9. When we ignore context we can get a lot of wrong ideas.

That is a "given".

I prefer exegesis to eisegesis in this case.




And we know that Moses appears in bodily form with Elijah and Christ in Matt 17.

And we know (even from scholars that reject soul sleep) that Jude is quoting the work "The Assumption of Moses" in Jude 7.

Those are all given.




Jude's quote of "The Assumption of Moses" comes to mind.





I agree that part of the text is missing - but the title is pretty instructive never-the-less.




I don't know of anyone that thinks that we have the full text of the book "The Assumption of Moses". I know that the compilers of the Pseudepigrapha claim we do not have the complete text - and that is where we go to find it.



I agree but in this case Jude is quoting very section of the book that you would most like to ignore. While we can suppose that some other parts are not true if we like - taking the very area selected out by Jude and saying that THIS is the part of the book that is least trustworthy - does not work.

As I pointed out - even Bible scholars who reject soul sleep -- are getting this part of the topic.

in Christ,

Bob

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Jude is quoting from a section of the book that is not even there, we don't even know if it ever was there, and even if it is, that doesn't mean he is giving testimony that Moses was assumed into heaven. Epic fail in terms of sticking with Scripture.

Bob Ryan,

are you suggesting that Moses was bodily resurrected to live forever before Christ?

Here we have a Catholic publication - where a Catholic reader writes in to ask Fr. Ken Ryan about a very Catholic subject.

Originally Posted by BobRyan (Catholic Digest is the 2nd largest Catholic publication on the planet – though it is not written by the Vatican itself)

Pagan prayer methods family gods vs Catholic forms of prayers to ancestors

Catholic Digest 12/1994 pg 129

“The Rosary is, unsurprisingly, Not mentioned in the Bible. Legend and history place its beginning in the 13th century long After the Bible was completed. As a Pagan practice, praying on counting beads goes back centuries before Christ…

Buddhists use prayer wheels and prayer beads for the same purpose… Counting prayer beads is common practice in religious cultures”.


​

Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129
Question:
“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”

Ans:
“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. [b]The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do[/b] to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!

The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!
They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!

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narnia59 said:

Ah, the pagan card. One always has to wonder when that will show up.

There is a long and historical tradition in Biblical Christianity of taking pagan concepts and 'christianizing' them.

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Indeed -- our pro-Catholic historian Thomas Bokenkotter also points that out for the reader starting with the icons in Rome and Greece.

I am simply pointing out that communication with the dead is a long standing tradition in both Catholic and non-Christian groups and that the Catholic publications themselves admit to this point.

in Christ,

Bob

Lion King said:

Bob Ryan,

are you suggesting that Moses was bodily resurrected to live forever before Christ?

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Jesus raised many people from the dead before He Himself was raised.

The people in Matt 17 were raised from the dead before Christ as well.

And both Elijah and Enoch were taken to heaven before that time.

Christ is the "Firstborn of Creation" in Revelation 1 - but that does not mean that nothing was created before Christ was born as an infant.





Here is a Bible scholar -- who rejects the Bible teaching on Soul Sleep and yet points out why it is that Moses was raised bodily and taken to heaven.

[FONT=&quot]J-F-B Jamieson, Fausset, Brown

about the body of Moses--his literal body. Satan, as having the power of death, opposed the raising of it again, on the ground of Moses' sin at Meribah, and his murder of the Egyptian.

That Moses' body was raised, appears from his presence with Elijah and Jesus (who were in the body) at the Transfiguration: the sample and earnest of the coming resurrection kingdom, to be ushered in by Michael's standing up for God's people. Thus in each dispensation a sample and pledge of the future resurrection was given: Enoch in the patriarchal dispensation, Moses in the Levitical, Elijah in the prophetical. It is noteworthy that the same rebuke is recorded here as was used by the Angel of the Lord, or Jehovah the Second Person, in pleading for Joshua, the representative of the Jewish Church, against Satan, in Zechariah 3:2 thought that also here "the body of Moses" means the Jewish Church accused by Satan, before God, for its filthiness, on which ground he demands that divine justice should take its course against Israel, but is rebuked by the Lord who has "chosen Jerusalem": thus, as "the body of Christ" is the Christian Church, so "the body of Moses" is the Jewish Church.

But the literal body is evidently here meant

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[/FONT] in Christ,

Bob

narnia59 said:

Christ's testimony that Abraham had seen his day and was glad (John 8

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Point of correction, Narnia59.

Abraham did not really see Christ in the flesh, but only saw a prophetic view of Him and rejoiced.

Isaac was a TYPE of Christ:

Isaac was the one and only son of promise (Genesis 22:2)
Jesus Christ is the one and only Son of God promised to the world (John 3:16)

Isaac was to be sacrificed in Moriah (Genesis 22:2)
Jesus Christ was sacrificed in Jerusalem (2 Chron. 3:1) (The temple in Jerusalem was built on Mount Moriah)

Isaac was considered dead by father for three days (Genesis 22:4)
Jesus Christ was dead for three days (1 Cor. 15:3-4)

Isaac carried wood for his own sacrifice (Genesis 22:6)
Jesus Christ carried His own cross (John 19:17-18)

Isaac submitted willingly to his Father (Genesis 22:6-8)
Jesus Christ submitted willingly to Father (Matt. 26:39)

Isaac was raised from altar, his life spared by the power of God (Genesis 22:11-12)
Jesus Christ was raised from the dead by the power of God (Rom. 6:4)

Lion King said:

Point of correction, Narnia59.

Abraham did not really see Christ in the flesh, but only saw a prophetic view of Him and rejoiced.

Isaac was a TYPE of Christ:

Isaac was the one and only son of promise (Genesis 22:2)
Jesus Christ is the one and only Son of God promised to the world (John 3:16)

Isaac was to be sacrificed in Moriah (Genesis 22:2)
Jesus Christ was sacrificed in Jerusalem (2 Chron. 3:1) (The temple in Jerusalem was built on Mount Moriah)

Isaac was considered dead by father for three days (Genesis 22:4)
Jesus Christ was dead for three days (1 Cor. 15:3-4)

Isaac carried wood for his own sacrifice (Genesis 22:6)
Jesus Christ carried His own cross (John 19:17-18)

Isaac submitted willingly to his Father (Genesis 22:6-8)
Jesus Christ submitted willingly to Father (Matt. 26:39)

Isaac was raised from altar, his life spared by the power of God (Genesis 22:11-12)
Jesus Christ was raised from the dead by the power of God (Rom. 6:4)

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Isaac is indeed a type of Christ, but Christ does not say that Abraham saw a foreshawowing of Christ. He says he saw the day of Christ.

BobRyan said:

Jesus raised many people from the dead before He Himself was raised.

The people in Matt 17 were raised from the dead before Christ as well.

And both Elijah and Enoch were taken to heaven before that time.

Christ is the "Firstborn of Creation" in Revelation 1 - but that does not mean that nothing was created before Christ was born as an infant.





Here is a Bible scholar -- who rejects the Bible teaching on Soul Sleep and yet points out why it is that Moses was raised bodily and taken to heaven.

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in Christ,

Bob

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Working from an assumption that God is limited to the need of Moses physical body in order for Jesus to talk to him.

From Scripture:
Moses died and was buried by God.
Michael and Satan fought over the body.
Period.

Anything else is speculation, to include that in order for Jesus to converse with him he was required to raise him bodily.

BobRyan said:

Here we have a Catholic publication - where a Catholic reader writes in to ask Fr. Ken Ryan about a very Catholic subject.





Indeed -- our pro-Catholic historian Thomas Bokenkotter also points that out for the reader starting with the icons in Rome and Greece.

I am simply pointing out that communication with the dead is a long standing tradition in both Catholic and non-Christian groups and that the Catholic publications themselves admit to this point.

in Christ,

Bob

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And 'star readers' were led to Christ by a star. Pagans even -- the first to worship.

Complain to John and Paul about incorporating 'pagan stuff' into Christianity.

Communication with those in Christ is not communication with the dead.