High, Low...up down all around

So, I am more knowledgeable about the High-Low church issue in Anglicanism, but I was wondering if any Lutherans could enlighten me a little on if this is a thing in Lutheranism (particularly in the U.S.)?

I have seen Lutheran services in the South of the U.S. where the minister wore no vestments and the service seemed quite Baptist-esque or Presbyterian. I admit this is far less common than a more liturgical, traditional service from what I've seen.

Is there a divide? What are your church services like? Musically, liturgically, etc.?

Many thanks and God bless

Depends on the synod and congregation. Mine is pretty high church. I didn't know there were any who didn't wear vestments but I wouldn't be surprised if that was an ELCA one.

Aibrean said:

Depends on the synod and congregation. Mine is pretty high church. I didn't know there were any who didn't wear vestments but I wouldn't be surprised if that was an ELCA one.

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It was actually LCMS, but I can imagine this is just an outlier and not the rule. My Lutheran friends tell me that their really liberal churches tend to be quite high church. The same thing is sometimes seen in the ECUSA. I've also seen UCC congregations that are quite liturgical. I don't know why, but it seems to me a phenomenon in some denominations to have very liberal theologies but traditional liturgies.

I am very interested in Lutheranism and just wanted to see which way most Lutherans on CF had experienced it, more liturgical or less.

Thanks for the answer. God bless.

at my home church, and at my church now (both LCMS), we are VERY liturgical and VERY conservative. we don't do the "smells and bells", but our music is traditional hymns, our liturgy is traditional, the pastors wear traditional vestments....

My impression of the Lcms is that the most conservative churches also tend to be more liturgical. Contemporary Lcms churches tend to be far less concerned with the orthodoxy of belief in the laity, trending toward Baptists who baptize babies.

Tangible said:

My impression of the Lcms is that the most conservative churches also tend to be more liturgical. Contemporary Lcms churches tend to be far less concerned with the orthodoxy of belief in the laity, trending toward Baptists who baptize babies.

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I did a bit more polling among friends and some online searches and this seems to be true. The LCMS congregations in my area (rural and south) back in the US seem to be more Baptist-like in their preaching and feel. The ELCA congregations in my area seem to be more traditional and liturgical with less of a Baptist or Presbyterian congregational feel to them.

WELS churches tend to be more low church but theologically conservative.

Many of the younger pastors in the LCMS are very liturgical and very conservative. Hopefully this bodes well for future generations.

When I get back to the U.S. I'm going to try and attend a Lutheran service at an ELCA congregation nearby. It's over a century old and seems to have a very liturgical bent. I've been living in France and attending mass often (Catholic, but exploring). I just returned to Christianity after a period of atheism and I was rereading some of my old theology stuff the other day and reread some works by Luther. I felt a bit more intrigued than I had been by what I was reading before (Catholic works and a few Reformed books). I've read a lot of Lutheran theological works, but I have to say I've never attended one of their services.

My church is both "high church" and kinda liberalish. It's TEC/ELCA. I like it!

<Staff Edit>
I have seen both here in the north. One congregation is very "homely", or perhaps the pastor is too relaxed with the congregation (I watched him leave the pulpit to play a piece on the piano on a whim, and there were the random "Amens" coming from the congregation). It is very different feel than another congregation, less than three miles away, which seems very "Catholic" in appeal, the high regard for ceremonial pomp and utmost reverence of the liturgy. (Yes, I can say ceremonial pomp because our organist would approve - he is LCMS, former Catholic, and retains that 18th C feel throughout). Mind you, both congregations I contrasted are ELCA.

Thanks for the replies. I was wondering if the pastors in the ELCA congregations spoke of were still theologically conservative? What I mean is, I have seen churches who have female pastors and accept gays and lesbians but they still believe in very orthodox theologies: Nicene Christianity, Jesus as savior , etc. I have also seen liberal churches that have a loose sort of "Jesus was a cool guy" half-baked theology (I admit I see this mostly with the UCC, no offense, but just personal experience).

I'm interested in very orthodox theology when it comes to Christology and soteriology, but I'm not into strict conservative social practices. Is it possible to find a congregation that marries the two?

Nicaenum said:

Thanks for the replies. I was wondering if the pastors in the ELCA congregations spoke of were still theologically conservative? What I mean is, I have seen churches who have female pastors and accept gays and lesbians but they still believe in very orthodox theologies: Nicene Christianity, Jesus as savior , etc. I have also seen liberal churches that have a loose sort of "Jesus was a cool guy" half-baked theology (I admit I see this mostly with the UCC, no offense, but just personal experience).

I'm interested in very orthodox theology when it comes to Christology and soteriology, but I'm not into strict conservative social practices. Is it possible to find a congregation that marries the two?

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That would describe mine: founded by a female pastor, accepting of gays and lesbians, orthodox in basic theology. But orthodox in an "emergent" way, i.e., more interested in the walk than the talk. Basically Catholic in liturgical style with Benedictine monastic influence.

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Just a bit of MY worthless perspective....


1. It seems significant to ME that Lutheranism is defined by truth rather than forms or styles of worship. The Book of Concord counts, not the Book of Prayer. "It is not necessary that customs be the same everywhere." Lutheranism has a rich diversity in customs and worship forms - which I think has been a plus.


2. In many denominations, there is a rather direct correlation between formality of worship and liberalness in doctrine. I frankly don't know if that's true in American Lutheranism.


3. Perhaps its the former Catholic in me, but I PERSONALLY prefer rather formal, traditional, liturgical worship. I TEND to like older hymns more than contemporary songs - but this has NOTHING to do with the age of the song or the style of the music. It's just I grew up with traditional stuff and tend to "relate" more to it.


4. A lot (Maybe most, I don't know) congregations in my denomination (LCMS) have TWO services - one "traditional" and one "contempory" (although those terms are pretty meaningless), but often the only difference is whether there are newer songs played by a band or older songs placed by a nice lady on a really old organ. Lutherans tend to be liturgical folk. And they seem to care more about the DOCTRINE in the song than what instrument(s) it is accompanied by or whether it was written in the 9th or 21st Century. I think having multiple services or a "mix" is at least theoretically good. MAKING everyone fit into Divine Service, Setting Two is a bit like forcing everyone to have brats and sourkraut for lunch. Some may like Italian or Mexican or Chinese food! Those who only know brats may actually be missing out! I say that not ONLY to "traditional" Lutherans but to Catholics, "Evangelicals" etc. We maybe all could benefit from a bit of what others "have/do." But again, IMO, it's doctrine that matters; customs need not all be the same in all places. Perhaps they shouldn't be.


4. In MY church, it all looks and sounds pretty Catholic.



Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah




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MOD HAT

Nicaenum said:

So, I am more knowledgeable about the High-Low church issue in Anglicanism, but I was wondering if any Lutherans could enlighten me a little on if this is a thing in Lutheranism (particularly in the U.S.)?

I have seen Lutheran services in the South of the U.S. where the minister wore no vestments and the service seemed quite Baptist-esque or Presbyterian. I admit this is far less common than a more liturgical, traditional service from what I've seen.

Is there a divide? What are your church services like? Musically, liturgically, etc.?

Many thanks and God bless

Click to expand...

This thread has gone way off topic. It was not started to debate liberal vs. conservative theology/Scriptural interpretation; it's about Liturgical practice and traditions (please note the original post I have quoted above. I'm closing it for a cleanup; so if your posts are removed, now you know why.

Mark
Staff Supervisor

MOD HAT Off, thread reopened.

My LCMS church in Maryland is very liturgical (both services). We even use the Order of Matins on fifth Sundays! I love being able to explain to my daughter the changing of the paraments as the year progresses, and the symbolism of the various vestments the pastor wears. I think the symbolism in the liturgy helps bring home the Gospel.

And keep in mind that the liturgy is OUR participation in worship. We're not just sitting and listening... we're responding, singing, chanting, praying, confessing, receiving. It's interactive.

I was raised Presbyterian, and my in-laws attend a Presbyterian church. After ten years of Lutheran worship, I'm always struck when I attend their church at how passive their services are. Sure, there are a few hymns, and some prayers, but not the responses and participation in the service that we have in our Lutheran services. I could easily watch a Presbyterian service on TV. A Lutheran one...? I'd want to have my hymnal handy so I could follow along and participate.

synger said:

My LCMS church in Maryland is very liturgical (both services). We even use the Order of Matins on fifth Sundays! I love being able to explain to my daughter the changing of the paraments as the year progresses, and the symbolism of the various vestments the pastor wears. I think the symbolism in the liturgy helps bring home the Gospel.

And keep in mind that the liturgy is OUR participation in worship. We're not just sitting and listening... we're responding, singing, chanting, praying, confessing, receiving. It's interactive.

I was raised Presbyterian, and my in-laws attend a Presbyterian church. After ten years of Lutheran worship, I'm always struck when I attend their church at how passive their services are. Sure, there are a few hymns, and some prayers, but not the responses and participation in the service that we have in our Lutheran services. I could easily watch a Presbyterian service on TV. A Lutheran one...? I'd want to have my hymnal handy so I could follow along and participate.

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absolutely beautifully stated....thank you for that!!

Well, in the forty-five mile radius from here there is a cluster of eight or so AFLC (American Federation of Lutheran Church) congregations, along with a lone Lutheran Brethren Church, both of those sects are similar in that they use a non-liturgical "free-church" evangelical style worship, which is more like what you would find in a Baptist or an Assembly of God Church on a Sunday morning. Pastors in those churches will seen on Sunday in, at best a business suit and tie, and now days maybe only trousers and a dress shirt. They usually end with an invitation or altar call, like you would find at the close of a Baptist worship service.

I think nearby LCMS pastors copy those guys, because when I went to an LCMS congregation one week in nearby town about fifty miles away, service was a nightmare to endure: a praise-band with snare drum set, electric guitars, digital synthesizer, etc., unfamiliar chorus style songs which people only mumble along with since melody is too complicated to learn anyway, long-winded extemporaneous prayers, pastor all dressed for afternoon at golf course in polo shirt, etc.

In this vicinity ELCA parishes are numerous and they are all good, orthodox, congregations, most by now have adopted and are using Evangelical Lutheran Worship as their hymnal, and from what I have seen in visiting the various congregations the pastors follow the liturgy pretty much "straight from the book." There are subtle differences, of course, with one using individual glasses for Holy Communion, several serve sacrament by intinction, while another uses a "flowing chalice" with a spout to fill-up a little mini-chalice for each communicant. Some use red wine, some use white, etc. Most of them have got pipe organs which have been maintained and work and several have got grand piano in their sanctuaries. Our pastor wears white alb with liturgical color stole for the day and on Christmas and Easter adds chasuble. Saturday evening attendance is less than on Sunday morning, but even then he is assisted by least one acolyte, a eucharistic minister, and a lector. Sunday morning he gets two people to help in each of the roles.

Closest WELS church is nearly eighty miles away, but awhile back one day when I was in the neighborhood on a business trip, I hung around until evening and went to mid-week Lenten worship to see what it was like. Building looked bigger from outside, but by the time you subtract space for a small narthex and stairway to balcony, there is only space for about six rows of pews. It wasn't too bad. They used an "Order of Evening Prayer" printed in the bulletin, pastor just wore a black graduation type gown, so only Lenten purple was the frontal cloth adorning the altar. There was no lector, communion wasn't served that night, and in absence of an acolyte one of the ushers went and snuffed out the candles as everyone sang last hymn.

Just an FYI... The AFLC is the Association of Free Lutheran Churches.

Rewriting... ELCA can't be orthodox Lutheran. Liturgical, maybe. Orthodox, not by their actions. I won't post why I believe that but I'm sure you can guess *wink wink*. Keeping on-topic.