saints and the like....

black coffee · May 2, 2012

I guess my first Lutheran question would be in regards to saints. In the Anglican Prayerbook, the collects for certain days (today for examle, the feast of St. Athanasius) will say something to the effect of "let us be bold in our faith, and defenders of truth like your Bishop Athanasius....etc.) I am perfectly fine with this, and have mostly de-romanized myself of "St. suchandsuch, pray to God for me....." except for when it comes to the Virgin Mary.

I did it mostly because at some point it became akward, but how "wrong" is it?

I understand and accept that the saints have no "merit's built up" and are not mediators, but is it wrong to view them as "partners in prayer"?

As for the Virgin Mary, I know most Lutheran's who do pray the Hail Mary, omit the "Holy Mary, Mother of God......." a pre-trent hail Mary as it were. But of all the saints, would she not be the ideal intercesor for us? (keeping in mind that she is not a mediator.)

DaRev · May 2, 2012

black coffee said:
I guess my first Lutheran question would be in regards to saints. In the Anglican Prayerbook, the collects for certain days (today for examle, the feast of St. Athanasius) will say something to the effect of "let us be bold in our faith, and defenders of truth like your Bishop Athanasius....etc.) I am perfectly fine with this, and have mostly de-romanized myself of "St. suchandsuch, pray to God for me....." except for when it comes to the Virgin Mary.

I did it mostly because at some point it became akward, but how "wrong" is it?

I understand and accept that the saints have no "merit's built up" and are not mediators, but is it wrong to view them as "partners in prayer"?

As for the Virgin Mary, I know most Lutheran's who do pray the Hail Mary, omit the "Holy Mary, Mother of God......." a pre-trent hail Mary as it were. But of all the saints, would she not be the ideal intercesor for us? (keeping in mind that she is not a mediator.)

Prayer is a form of worship and the first commandment tells us not to worship or bow down to anyone or anything other than God. While we do believe that Mary and the saints may indeed pray for us, they are in no position for us to invoke them, nor can we even know that they can hear us. The Scriptures clearly teach us that we have one Mediator in Christ Himself. No other is necessary.

synger · May 3, 2012

I agree that prayer is worship and should be directed only to God. That being said, the church calendar does have certain saints' (small "s") and commemoration days, and you may hear them mentioned in the sermon or in the collect (the prayer for that day). The Treasury of Daily Prayer often has an excerpt from one of their writings on a commemoration day.

For instance, the collect suggested for August 15, which is the commemoration of St. Mary, the Mother of our Lord, is:

Almighty God, You chose the Virgin Mary to be the mother of Your only Son. Grant that we, who are redeemed by His blood, may share with her in the glory of Your eternal kingdom; through Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and forever.

Feast and Festivals - The Lutheran ChurchâMissouri Synod gives a great overview of what DaRev already said.

The prayers and hymn suggestions are in the document linked from the text " A selection of those hymn verses and prayers for the day are available here"

Mark_Sam · May 5, 2012

black coffee said:
I guess my first Lutheran question would be in regards to saints. In the Anglican Prayerbook, the collects for certain days (today for examle, the feast of St. Athanasius) will say something to the effect of "let us be bold in our faith, and defenders of truth like your Bishop Athanasius....etc.) I am perfectly fine with this, and have mostly de-romanized myself of "St. suchandsuch, pray to God for me....." except for when it comes to the Virgin Mary.

I did it mostly because at some point it became akward, but how "wrong" is it?

I understand and accept that the saints have no "merit's built up" and are not mediators, but is it wrong to view them as "partners in prayer"?

As for the Virgin Mary, I know most Lutheran's who do pray the Hail Mary, omit the "Holy Mary, Mother of God......." a pre-trent hail Mary as it were. But of all the saints, would she not be the ideal intercesor for us? (keeping in mind that she is not a mediator.)

Philipp Melanchthon, the great Lutheran theologian, adressed this topic (Apology of the Augsburg Confession, Article XXI: Of the Invocation of Saints [emphasis mine]):

"Our Confession approves honors to the saints. For here a threefold honor is to be approved. The first is thanksgiving. For we ought to give thanks to God because He has shown examples of mercy; because He has shown that He wishes to save men; because He has given teachers or other gifts to the Church. And these gifts, as they are the greatest, should be amplified, and the saints themselves should be praised, who have faithfully used these gifts, just as Christ praises faithful business-men, Matt. 25:21; 23. The second service is the strengthening of our faith; when we see the denial forgiven Peter, we also are encouraged to believe the more that grace truly superabounds over sin, Rom 5:20. The third honor is the imitation, first, of faith, then of the other virtues, which every one should imitate according to his calling. [...]

concerning the saints we concede that, just as, when alive, they pray for the Church universal in general, so in heaven they pray for the Church in general, albeit no testimony concerning the praying of the dead is extant in the Scriptures, except the dream taken from the Second Book of Maccabees, 15:14.

Moreover, even supposing that the saints pray for the Church ever so much, yet it does not follow that they are to be invoked; although our Confession affirms only this, that Scripture does not teach the invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. But since neither a command, nor a promise, nor an example can be produced from the Scriptures concerning the invocation of saints, it follows that conscience can have nothing concerning this invocation that is certain. And since prayer ought to be made from faith, how do we know that God approves this invocation? Whence do we know without the testimony of Scripture that the saints perceive the prayers of each one?"

The last paragraph sums up the Lutheran view on the matter. Since the Bible is silent on the issue, why "gamble" on the saints hearing our prayers? Yeah, they might be our "partners in prayer", but we cannot know this for sure, since the Bible says nothing about it.

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saints and the like....

black coffee

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DaRev

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synger

Confessional Liturgical Lutheran

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Mark_Sam

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