NY Gay Marriage Vote and the American Bishops

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Elvisman

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Also, thank you very much for your words of welcome. May the grace and peace of Our Lord, Jesus Christ; the Love of God; and the fellowship of the Holy spirit be with you always. (I memorised the Mass, and this is my favourite greeting.) ^_^

Your welcome!

A couple of things you said concern me - namely that your priest and fellow parishioners are accepting of your prospective future homosexual relationships. Correct me if I'm wrong. As a Catholic - it really doesn't matter who is accepting of this or who is not. It's what the Church teaches that is important.

Also - you say that the prohibitions of Leviticus don't apply anymore. That is not the case when it comes to the moral Law. We are still forbidden to fornicate or engage in homosexual behavior. Necromancy is still forbidden, as is Idolatry.

Jesus filfilled the ceremonial and dietary aspects of the Law. However, the Moral aspect of the Law is still intact. This is why the sins I just listed are still forbidden in the New Testament.
1 Cor. 6:9-10, plainly states:
"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Please don't be mistaken into thinking that these things are somehow condoned no simply because they were first mentioned in the Old Testament. Pray for the help of the Holy Spirit in your journey. I will also keep you in prayer.
 
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FrancesJames09

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Well, I had to mention my parishioners and my priest, because they are the ones with whom I communicate on a daily basis and are those through whom I experience God, aside from directly through prayer, of course; and the Eucharist.

You say that Jesus fulfilled the dietary and ceremonial aspects of the Old Law, but I don't think I get that from a simple reading of the New Testament. When all of those dietary and ceremonial aspects are referred to as abominations, it seems that it is referring to a ritual wrong rather than an innately immoral one. Eating a rabbit isn't innately immoral, but it is an abomination. Since Leviticus doesn't separate out which Abominations (read ritual wrongs) were innately immoral based on a reading of the text, it seems to be left up to the interpreter. Which isn't to say that some of the Levitical laws oughtn't be kept around (I, for example, am not necessarily a fan of inappropriate behavior with animals) but given what we know about homosexuality today and the wonderful love and give and take that we know that their relationships can produce, it seems that those laws from Leviticus (the two regarding what we might call homosexuality) could take the same trip as the prohibitions on the eating shellfish or swine.

Yet, on the third hand, there is an idea as old as 2000 years that has a different notion regarding the interpretation of those afore mentioned Levitical laws, positing that they are infact references to shrine prostitution (rather than to homosexuality) using the same words that Paul uses in Corinthians--namely the arsen-koitai roots. If this is taken as a legitimate interpretation of scripture, an argument could be made for the understanding of the word that your translation renders as "homosexual" as a reference to shrine prostitution, instead.

This quote you put up from Corinthians reads differently in the translation I have and seems to make no reference to homosexuality. I don't know what translation you're using, but that's not what's in mine. Instead of men who have sex with men, mine says abusers of themselves with mankind (which, I'll admit, still doesn't look good for my case, but which I point out at this moment merely to draw attention to the fact that there is some trouble translating the word here rendered as "homosexuals"), and the word that was used to translate that word in Corinthians as "homosexuals" is arsenokoitai; and that seems to be a word that has been used to mean a few different things rather than homosexuality specifically.

One interesting thing: Philo was a Jewish philosopher who lived from 20 BC to AD 40 and lived at the same time Jesus lived. During the life of Christ, Philo understood Moses, in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, to be condemning shrine prostitution (in which case, I would say that I agree with the Levitical Law).


Philo's understanding that the arsenokoit stem refers to shrine prostitution is 2000 years old. It is not a modern argument from gays and lesbians. Instead, it is the common first century Jewish viewpoint. Gays did not make up this viewpoint and it did not originate with gays therefore it is not historical revisionism by gays seeking an alibi for their sin.


If the arsenokoit stem from Leviticus 20:13, arsenos koiten, gave us the Greek word Paul used in 1 Corinthians 6:9 (most anti-gay Christians believe Paul borrowed the word from the Septuagint translation of Lev 18:22 and 20:13), then understanding arsenokoites as a reference to shrine prostitution was a common understanding in the first century, when Paul used the word in 1 Cor 6:9 and 1 Tim 1:10.


In answer to your question, I don't think that these things are condoned simply because they're in the Old Testament. I have other reasons for thinking so.I understand what you're saying, and I do, very much so, have a very important place for the Old Testament in my life, and I wouldn't discard it; but I must also keep in mind what the Old Testament means in the context of the New Testament: not just the Law, but the whole story. I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit has always been guiding me and will continue to do so.


If I am in the state of grace, may God keep me there; if I am not, may He put me there.

--This entry has been edited to correct mistakes and add information.
 
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Elvisman

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Well, I had to mention my parishioners and my priest, because they are the ones with whom I communicate on a daily basis and are those through whom I experience God, aside from directly through prayer, of course; and the Eucharist.

You say that Jesus fulfilled the dietary and ceremonial aspects of the Old Law, but I don't think I get that from a simple reading of the New Testament. When all of those dietary and ceremonial aspects are referred to as abominations, it seems that it is referring to a ritual wrong rather than an innately immoral one. Eating a rabbit isn't innately immoral, but it is an abomination. Since Leviticus doesn't separate out which Abominations (read ritual wrongs) were innately immoral based on a reading of the text, it seems to be left up to the interpreter. Which isn't to say that some of the Levitical laws oughtn't be kept around (I, for example, am not necessarily a fan of inappropriate behavior with animals) but given what we know about homosexuality today and the wonderful love and give and take that we know that their relationships can produce, it seems that those laws from Leviticus (the two regarding what we might call homosexuality) could take the same trip as the prohibitions on the eating shellfish or swine.

Yet, on the third hand, there is an idea as old as 2000 years that has a different notion regarding the interpretation of those afore mentioned Levitical laws, positing that they are infact references to shrine prostitution (rather than to homosexuality) using the same words that Paul uses in Corinthians--namely the arsen-koitai roots. If this is taken as a legitimate interpretation of scripture, an argument could be made for the understanding of the word that your translation renders as "homosexual" as a reference to shrine prostitution, instead.

This quote you put up from Corinthians reads differently in the translation I have and seems to make no reference to homosexuality. I don't know what translation you're using, but that's not what's in mine. Instead of men who have sex with men, mine says abusers of themselves with mankind (which, I'll admit, still doesn't look good for my case, but which I point out at this moment merely to draw attention to the fact that there is some trouble translating the word here rendered as "homosexuals"), and the word that was used to translate that word in Corinthians as "homosexuals" is arsenokoitai; and that seems to be a word that has been used to mean a few different things rather than homosexuality specifically.

One interesting thing: Philo was a Jewish philosopher who lived from 20 BC to AD 40 and lived at the same time Jesus lived. During the life of Christ, Philo understood Moses, in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, to be condemning shrine prostitution (in which case, I would say that I agree with the Levitical Law).

Philo's understanding that the arsenokoit stem refers to shrine prostitution is 2000 years old. It is not a modern argument from gays and lesbians. Instead, it is the common first century Jewish viewpoint. Gays did not make up this viewpoint and it did not originate with gays therefore it is not historical revisionism by gays seeking an alibi for their sin.

If the arsenokoit stem from Leviticus 20:13, arsenos koiten, gave us the Greek word Paul used in 1 Corinthians 6:9 (most anti-gay Christians believe Paul borrowed the word from the Septuagint translation of Lev 18:22 and 20:13), then understanding arsenokoites as a reference to shrine prostitution was a common understanding in the first century, when Paul used the word in 1 Cor 6:9 and 1 Tim 1:10.

In answer to your question, I don't think that these things are condoned simply because they're in the Old Testament. I have other reasons for thinking so.I understand what you're saying, and I do, very much so, have a very important place for the Old Testament in my life, and I wouldn't discard it; but I must also keep in mind what the Old Testament means in the context of the New Testament: not just the Law, but the whole story. I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit has always been guiding me and will continue to do so.

If I am in the state of grace, may God keep me there; if I am not, may He put me there.

--This entry has been edited to correct mistakes and add information.

Actually, the Old Testament is ALL about Jesus. It's not about old stuff that has been done away with.
As St. Augustine so wisely put it, "The New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old is revealed in the New."

The moral tenets of the Law still apply because of Jesus.
In the simplest terms, sex outside of marriage is prohibited by God. If sex outside of marriage is forbidden for heterosexuals - and Jesus said it WAS - then sex outside of marriage is forbidden for homosexuals as well.

Scripturally-speaking, since only a man and a woman may marry, that would make sex outside of a heterosexual marriage sinful.

As for the New Testament not condemning homosexual behavior - how do you reconcile Romans 1:26-27?

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.

In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.
Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."
 
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FrancesJames09

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Actually, the Old Testament is ALL about Jesus. It's not about old stuff that has been done away with.
As St. Augustine so wisely put it, "The New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old is revealed in the New."

Yes, this I absolutely will concede to you. I made a mistake when I said that certain parts of the Old Testament had been done away with. What I should have and meant to say was that there are parts of the Old Law which we no longer apply to ourselves, such as the dietary regulations, clothing, and farming and so on. Which is not to say that they've been done away with, you're quite correct, because they have their fulfillment in the saving grace of our Lord. I will even say that the moral tenants of the Law do still apply.

Now, I'm not moving on to marriage just yet, because that's a rather big piece to talk about. What I'm focusing on at the moment is simply is whether gay relationships are morally okay or not. Lots of men and women of the opposite sex date without having to discuss whether or not they can in a moral sense be together or date; right now, I'm simply setting up the framework for an argument that could be made for gay marriage, but I don't want to address that in this post.

Don't confuse what I'm saying, because I'm not arguing for premarital sex. At this point I'm merely arguing for same sex relationships in general, but I do appreciate your foresight--if we allow relationships between men and women that don't include sex, we could say the same for men and women who date the same sex.

Onto that last scripture verse you posted, Romans 1:26-27 talks about how God had dealt with the Gentiles, and is also a reference to idolatry and to shrine prostitution. This is something I understand from the context of the passage (the verses that come before it). Verses 21-25 of Romans 1 reads thusly:

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen


It is then that the verse you quoted comes. The preceding verses, here, clearly relate to idol worship and place the verses you quoted within that context. Because they turned to making idols and worshiping manmade things, God gave them up to their idolatrous practices. "Men were inflamed with lust for one another;" this doesn't sound like the loving, committed relationships that could come from gay marriage.

There is a clear distinction between what Paul is describing and what we're seeing today between gay couples, and that could further the argument that what's being discussed isn't the same as what I'm thinking. I'm thinking I might want a happy, successful marriage like my sister's, not some kind of perverse underworld dungeon. I want to be one of those people you see who love each other and are with each other for years and years, devoted to one another. Same as any elderly couple walking down the street. What I'm describing is a far cry from what Paul is talking about. You couldn't say that two married gay men or women in Main are any more in lust with each other than you could say my mother was with my father.


In that passage you quote, He (God) addresses a problem that plagued ancient Israel, which was a problem for people who lived in first century Rome. That problem was not homosexuality. Paul and God were not addressing gay men or lesbian women falling in love; and they weren't talking about gay dating or gay people in general.

I'm enjoying this talk with you, and thank you very for including me in your prayers; I'll keep you in mine, as well.

--This article has been edited to clarify thoughts, correct spelling, and deepen certain arguments.
 
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Elvisman

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Yes, this I absolutely will concede to you. I made a mistake when I said that certain parts of the Old Testament had been done away with. What I should have and meant to say was that there are parts of the Old Law which we no longer apply to ourselves, such as the dietary regulations, clothing, and farming and so on. Which is not to say that they've been done away with, you're quite correct, because they have their fulfillment in the saving grace of our Lord. I will even say that the moral tenants of the Law do still apply.

Now, I'm not moving on to marriage just yet, because that's a rather big piece to talk about. What I'm focusing on at the moment is simply is whether gay relationships are morally okay or not. Lots of men and women of the opposite sex date without having to discuss whether or not they can in a moral sense be together or date; right now, I'm simply setting up the framework for an argument that could be made for gay marriage, but I don't want to address that in this post.

Don't confuse what I'm saying, because I'm not arguing for premarital sex. At this point I'm merely arguing for same sex relationships in general, but I do appreciate your foresight--if we allow relationships between men and women that don't include sex, we could say the same for men and women who date the same sex.

Onto that last scripture verse you posted, Romans 1:26-27 talks about how God had dealt with the Gentiles, and is also a reference to idolatry and to shrine prostitution. This is something I understand from the context of the passage (the verses that come before it). Verses 21-25 of Romans 1 reads thusly:

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen

It is then that the verse you quoted comes. The preceding verses, here, clearly relate to idol worship and place the verses you quoted within that context. Because they turned to making idols and worshiping manmade things, God gave them up to their idolatrous practices. "Men were inflamed with lust for one another;" this doesn't sound like the loving, committed relationships that could come from gay marriage.

There is a clear distinction between what Paul is describing and what we're seeing today between gay couples, and that could further the argument that what's being discussed isn't the same as what I'm thinking. I'm thinking I might want a happy, successful marriage like my sister's, not some kind of perverse underworld dungeon. I want to be one of those people you see who love each other and are with each other for years and years, devoted to one another. Same as any elderly couple walking down the street. What I'm describing is a far cry from what Paul is talking about. You couldn't say that two married gay men or women in Main are any more in lust with each other than you could say my mother was with my father.

In that passage you quote, He (God) addresses a problem that plagued ancient Israel, which was a problem for people who lived in first century Rome. That problem was not homosexuality. Paul and God were not addressing gay men or lesbian women falling in love; and they weren't talking about gay dating or gay people in general.

I'm enjoying this talk with you, and thank you very for including me in your prayers; I'll keep you in mine, as well.

--This article has been edited to clarify thoughts, correct spelling, and deepen certain arguments.

Sorry, but you’re trying to rationalize here. The sin here is not their burning desire for one another but their actual sexual union – and here it plainly states that their unions were homosexual. Lust IS a sin, but desire in and of itself may not be.

You can claim that it was “shrine prostitution” but that is not what the text says. It was homosexual union.
As Tina Turner says, “What’s LOVE got to do with it?”.
Love for one another is not a sin. Homosexual sex and fornication are what is sinful.

This was the same reason that the men of Sodom and Gomorrah were blinded by the angels. Gen. 19:5 tells us that all of the MEN in the town of Sodom – young and old came to Lot’s house demanding to have sex with the 2 MEN (angels) in Lot’s house.

Strong’s Concordance tells us that the Hebrew verb יָדַע (‘yada’, “to know”) is used here in the sense of “to lie with” or “to have sex with” (as in Gen 4:1). This is where we get the word, “Sodomy”.

You state that you are not for premarital sex. As I stated before, the Bible is adamantly clear:
God’s plan for Marriage is between a man and a woman (Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:5, Mark 10:7) and NOT between 2 people of the same gender.
Therefore – ALL homosexual sex is extramarital, rendering it gravely sinful.

Did you bring up any of these concerns in your RCIA classes? How was this dealt with?
It seems that there was a definite failure on the part of the RCIA instructors to convey the Church’s position on homosexuality to you.

One last thing about abominations. You claim that the Old Law made many things abominations that were later rescinded. This is true - HOWEVER, eating certain foods was not an abomination to GOD, but to the Jews. Whenm something is an abomination before God - it is ALWAYS an abomination before God. He is ETERNAL. there is no furture or past with God for He is in the Eternal NOW.

The Levitical mandates against homosexual sex STILL apply because they are part of the Moral Law. As I have stated many times on this thread, there is not one, single Biblical verse that encourages or even condones homosexual sex. They only condemn and decry it as a grave sin which has serious consequences . . .

Deut. 23:17
Lev. 18:22-230
Lev. 20:13
1 Kings 14:24
1 Kings 15:12
1 Kings 22:46
2 Kings 23:7
 
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ivanthegood

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Sorry, but you’re trying to rationalize here. The sin here is not their burning desire for one another but their actual sexual union – and here it plainly states that their unions were homosexual. Lust IS a sin, but desire in and of itself may not be.

You can claim that it was “shrine prostitution” but that is not what the text says. It was homosexual union.
As Tina Turner says, “What’s LOVE got to do with it?”.
Love for one another is not a sin. Homosexual sex and fornication are what is sinful.

This was the same reason that the men of Sodom and Gomorrah were blinded by the angels. Gen. 19:5 tells us that all of the MEN in the town of Sodom – young and old came to Lot’s house demanding to have sex with the 2 MEN (angels) in Lot’s house.

Strong’s Concordance tells us that the Hebrew verb יָדַע (‘yada’, “to know”) is used here in the sense of “to lie with” or “to have sex with” (as in Gen 4:1). This is where we get the word, “Sodomy”.

You state that you are not for premarital sex. As I stated before, the Bible is adamantly clear:
God’s plan for Marriage is between a man and a woman (Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:5, Mark 10:7) and NOT between 2 people of the same gender.
Therefore – ALL homosexual sex is extramarital, rendering it gravely sinful.

Did you bring up any of these concerns in your RCIA classes? How was this dealt with?
It seems that there was a definite failure on the part of the RCIA instructors to convey the Church’s position on homosexuality to you.

One last thing about abominations. You claim that the Old Law made many things abominations that were later rescinded. This is true - HOWEVER, eating certain foods was not an abomination to GOD, but to the Jews. Whenm something is an abomination before God - it is ALWAYS an abomination before God. He is ETERNAL. there is no furture or past with God for He is in the Eternal NOW.

The Levitical mandates against homosexual sex STILL apply because they are part of the Moral Law. As I have stated many times on this thread, there is not one, single Biblical verse that encourages or even condones homosexual sex. They only condemn and decry it as a grave sin which has serious consequences . . .

Deut. 23:17
Lev. 18:22-230
Lev. 20:13
1 Kings 14:24
1 Kings 15:12
1 Kings 22:46
2 Kings 23:7


its going to be tuff convincing someone who the bible teaches has been given over to a debased mind, nothing you say will make sense to him, especially since you can't offer him a transformation that will change his sexual orientation as the bible says can happen through the power of Jesus Christ
 
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FrancesJames09

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Well, the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah is about in hospitality. It nothing to do with homosexuality, they were a bunch of people who wanted to kick the strangers out of their town. They didn't care whether the visitors were men or women, they wanted them out. The reason we know this is not only through the traditional teaching of the Jewish people, but Paul even mentions it and doesn't list homosexuality as one of the sins.

Now, there actually is a Bible story that has the exact same set up as the story of Sodom and Gomorrah that includes the rape of a young servant girl, and from this we can also infer that the sin of Sodom was the same.
 
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Elvisman

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Well, the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah is about in hospitality. It nothing to do with homosexuality, they were a bunch of people who wanted to kick the strangers out of their town. They didn't care whether the visitors were men or women, they wanted them out. The reason we know this is not only through the traditional teaching of the Jewish people, but Paul even mentions it and doesn't list homosexuality as one of the sins.

Now, there actually is a Bible story that has the exact same set up as the story of Sodom and Gomorrah that includes the rape of a young servant girl, and from this we can also infer that the sin of Sodom was the same.

The sin of Sodom against the 2 angels was that the men of Sodom wanted to have sex with them. That's why Lot begged them not to do this and offered his daughters to appease them instead. Hebegged them not to do this "wicked thing" (Gen 19:7).

They didn't want them to leave - they wanted to have their way with them - homosexually. As I explained to you, Strong’s Concordance tells us that the Hebrew verb יָדַע (‘yada’, “to know”) is used here in the sense of “to lie with” or “to have sex with.”

Where do you get the idea that the men of Sodom wanted them to leave? NOWHERE in Genesis 19 does it mention that. It only mentions the fact that they wanted to have sex with them. It even goes so far as to say that the MEN of Sodom wanted to have sext with these 2 MEN (angels) and that this was a wicked thing.

You really have to do some impressive Scriptural acrobatics to arrive at this point. Please show me where you are getting the idea that their sin was merely that of not being hospitable.
 
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FrancesJames09

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Also, I keep hearing you talk about the moral law and how the prohibition of homosexuality is a part of that and therefor not done away with; I was wondering, how was it discerned that moral law. I'm not trying to challenge you or push you, but I need to know the root of what you're saying, because that those Levitical laws regarding homosexuality belong to a separate class of moral laws that has not been done away with isn't clear to me.

As to the Romans verse, the idolatry connection is clearly made here, or so I thought, by the above verses. I don't know why there's an argument here when the verses above clearly include making graven images and other things to glorify themselves. What I'm claiming here isn't a revision, it's what I read from the text.

Also, yes, you're right--lust is a sin. But lust doesn't inform most gay relationships. To place it into context, think of these relationships rather like a relationship you've had with a girlfriend.

We need to clarify something because I honestly must have misunderstood you--if your only argument as to why gay people cannot be in a relationship is that genital acts are prohibited then I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying that gay people couldn't be in relationships, period. I, on the other hand, wasn't making a case for gay fornication outside of marriage, rather I was trying to set up the framework to make a case for gay marriage. My aim was to set up a framework for gay marriage. I mean, I explained away those two other verses in Corinthians and Timothy, also those other two in Leviticus, both of them reasonably, I think. As for Romans . . . let's say for the sake of argument that it is correct--I'm not looking for a relationship that Romans is describing. I'm looking for a loving one.

All of the relationships that I've had in the past were chaste ones. If you're claim is that I want to have sex in my relationships, then no, I don't. In fact, I've never had sex. If the only obstacle to gay sex is marriage, and I can find no reason to stand against gay marriage, then why not jsut allow us to get married?
 
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FrancesJames09

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I don't want the discussion to get personal here. I don't like people saying of me that I have a depraved mind. I'm just trying to have a civil conversation here without insulting another person, so if I insult anybody here, let me know and I'll make amends; but please don't insult me. It's mean and it doesn't make me feel good. I'm being especially vulnerable with myself here, and it would be nice to have that appreciated.
 
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rayodeluz

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Wrong.
When I stated that you can lose your salvation - and provideed Scriptural PROOF - you responded with the following:
"Sorry to disappoint, but I am signed, sealed, and delivered to Jesus. I have given my life to Him. I do what the Bible says. If you insist on NOT believing the Bible, then that is your problem."

Yes, that was my response. So what? Why do you think it has anything to do with OSAS? I AM signed, sealed, and delivered. I have done nothing to lose my salvation. We are justified by faith. I made Jesus my savior long ago, and have not abandonded that position, nor turned my back on my faith in Him. So what are you talking about?

WHEN have I denounced gestures of good will as hypocrisy??

From your posts, your position is that anything that is NOT Catholic nor endorsed by the Catholic church is false doctrine, and no good Catholic could accept any other point of view outside of the church. Kissing the Koran shows that JP II is willing to allow others to believe what they want to. You have attacked my position because it is not totally in line with the Catholic church. Does the Catholic church accept the Koran? No. Yet, JPII kissed it, which goes wy beyond an act of good will. If it was anyone else, you would have attacked that person, but you give JPII pass. That's why it's hypocrisy.

In other words, you have NO comeback for the Scriptural proof I provided that you can LOSE yuour salvation. (Romans 11:222, Pet. 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev.3:5, Rev. 22:19)

I have said ALL ALONG that I have no problem with those scriptures, so why would I try to refute them or come up with some kind of come back?

PS - you STILL haven't provided one, single line of Scripture that condones OR supports homosexual behavior . . .

I have said ALL ALONG that this is not an issue that really interests me, so why would I bother to provide scripture, alternative interpretations, etc.? It has been debated up and down on CF. All the pros and cons, Scripture quotes, etc., are already out there for everyone to read and consider. Why rehash it all? Why do you persist in pursuing this subject when I have said many times I don't care about it? It's not for me to judge or condemn another person, no matter what his or her sexuality may be.
 
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FrancesJames09

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Well, I conclude that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah doesn't condemn homosexuality for two reason. One is that the Prophet Ezekiel Mentions the two cities and doesn't mention homosexuality, rather a few other sins unrelated to homosexuality.

Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. -Ezekiel 16:49-50

The other thing is that the context of Sodom and Gomorrah, the mob isn't exactly inviting them out for consensual sex. They're talking about raping the two angles. That is not homosexuality any more than the rape of a woman by a man can be called heterosexuality.

The other reason why this isn't speaking out about homosexuality is that there's a story in the Bible, strikingly similar to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, except that this time, a girl is sent out and is raped and murdered by the men.

In those days Israel had no king.
Now a Levite who lived in a remote area in the hill country of Ephraim took a concubine from Bethlehem in Judah. But she was unfaithful to him. She left him and went back to her parents’ home in Bethlehem, Judah. After she had been there four months, her husband went to her to persuade her to return. He had with him his servant and two donkeys. She took him into her parents’ home, and when her father saw him, he gladly welcomed him. His father-in-law, the woman’s father, prevailed on him to stay; so he remained with him three days, eating and drinking, and sleeping there.

On the fourth day they got up early and he prepared to leave, but the woman’s father said to his son-in-law, “Refresh yourself with something to eat; then you can go.” So the two of them sat down to eat and drink together. Afterward the woman’s father said, “Please stay tonight and enjoy yourself.” And when the man got up to go, his father-in-law persuaded him, so he stayed there that night. On the morning of the fifth day, when he rose to go, the woman’s father said, “Refresh yourself. Wait till afternoon!” So the two of them ate together.

Then when the man, with his concubine and his servant, got up to leave, his father-in-law, the woman’s father, said, “Now look, it’s almost evening. Spend the night here; the day is nearly over. Stay and enjoy yourself. Early tomorrow morning you can get up and be on your way home.” But, unwilling to stay another night, the man left and went toward Jebus (that is, Jerusalem), with his two saddled donkeys and his concubine.

When they were near Jebus and the day was almost gone, the servant said to his master, “Come, let’s stop at this city of the Jebusites and spend the night.”
His master replied, “No. We won’t go into any city whose people are not Israelites. We will go on to Gibeah.” He added, “Come, let’s try to reach Gibeah or Ramah and spend the night in one of those places.” So they went on, and the sun set as they neared Gibeah in Benjamin. There they stopped to spend the night. They went and sat in the city square, but no one took them in for the night.

That evening an old man from the hill country of Ephraim, who was living in Gibeah (the inhabitants of the place were Benjamites), came in from his work in the fields. When he looked and saw the traveler in the city square, the old man asked, “Where are you going? Where did you come from?”

He answered, “We are on our way from Bethlehem in Judah to a remote area in the hill country of Ephraim where I live. I have been to Bethlehem in Judah and now I am going to the house of the LORD. No one has taken me in for the night. We have both straw and fodder for our donkeys and bread and wine for ourselves your servants—me, the woman and the young man with us. We don’t need anything.”
“You are welcome at my house,” the old man said. “Let me supply whatever you need. Only don’t spend the night in the square.” So he took him into his house and fed his donkeys. After they had washed their feet, they had something to eat and drink.

While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, “Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him.” The owner of the house went outside and said to them, “No, my friends, don’t be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don’t do this outrageous thing. Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But as for this man, don’t do such an outrageous thing.”

But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, “Get up; let’s go.” But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home. When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel. Everyone who saw it was saying to one another, “Such a thing has never been seen or done, not since the day the Israelites came up out of Egypt. Just imagine! We must do something! So speak up!” --Judges 19:1-30


So when I read this story, almost an exact replica of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah except that you've changed the sex of the people being violated, it makes it clear that the issue at hand isn't homosexuality. Unless by homosexuality you mean rape.

See, I just realised that I have to make a distinction here, because I think we might not be hearing each other again, and I do apologise for that. I think when you say homosexuality (and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm sorry before hand) you're talking exclusively of the genital acts. When I say homosexuality, I'm not talking about genital acts--I'm talking about relationships. Like the kind between you and your wife. Something good and wholesome. Like a true partnership. To debase it by saying that all we're after is sex doesn't do me justice and can come across as insulting, because we aren't base depraved human beings thinking only of sex. Again, I'm sorry if I'm just reading into what you've written here, but I'm growing concerned as more and more I can see that we're talking about slightly different things here. Or at least I think that's what I read into situation . . .
 
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Elvisman

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Also, I keep hearing you talk about the moral law and how the prohibition of homosexuality is a part of that and therefor not done away with; I was wondering, how was it discerned that moral law. I'm not trying to challenge you or push you, but I need to know the root of what you're saying, because that those Levitical laws regarding homosexuality belong to a separate class of moral laws that has not been done away with isn't clear to me.

As to the Romans verse, the idolatry connection is clearly made here, or so I thought, by the above verses. I don't know why there's an argument here when the verses above clearly include making graven images and other things to glorify themselves. What I'm claiming here isn't a revision, it's what I read from the text.

Also, yes, you're right--lust is a sin. But lust doesn't inform most gay relationships. To place it into context, think of these relationships rather like a relationship you've had with a girlfriend.

We need to clarify something because I honestly must have misunderstood you--if your only argument as to why gay people cannot be in a relationship is that genital acts are prohibited then I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying that gay people couldn't be in relationships, period. I, on the other hand, wasn't making a case for gay fornication outside of marriage, rather I was trying to set up the framework to make a case for gay marriage. My aim was to set up a framework for gay marriage. I mean, I explained away those two other verses in Corinthians and Timothy, also those other two in Leviticus, both of them reasonably, I think. As for Romans . . . let's say for the sake of argument that it is correct--I'm not looking for a relationship that Romans is describing. I'm looking for a loving one.

All of the relationships that I've had in the past were chaste ones. If you're claim is that I want to have sex in my relationships, then no, I don't. In fact, I've never had sex. If the only obstacle to gay sex is marriage, and I can find no reason to stand against gay marriage, then why not jsut allow us to get married?

Let me answer your last point first.
God instituted marriage – not man. We read in the Gen. 2:24 that a man leaves his mother and father and clings to his wife and the two become ONE flesh. This becoming ONE flesh is two-fold. The marital act is a sexual union that is for both procreation and marital unity. The two become one flesh both in the sexual union (they fit together, if you know what I mean) and in the creation of their offspring (which is one flesh from both parents).

Not only did God NOT create marriage to include men with men and women with women – he condemns that sort of union.

Whereas the Ceremonial Law has to do with things like cleansing rituals, dietary restrictions, keeping the Sabbath, etc - the Moral Law has to do with moral issues. Ceremonial laws were instilled to prepare the way for Christ. Moral Laws were set in place not only for how man deals with God – but how he deals with his fellow man.

These things never change. Murder will ALWAYS be wrong. The same goes for stealing, lying, fornicating, coveting, mistreating our neighbor, etc. This also goes for homosexual sex.

As for Romans 1 – the idolatry connection has nothing to do with the sexual behavior. It states that because they were idolaters – God handed them over to their illicit passions. It doesn’t imply that their idolatry was the only sin. It is telling us that because they were idolaters, ALL aspects of their lives became profane and perverse and reprehensible.

Finally – there is nothing wrong with ANY relationship where love exists. The problem is how that relationship is manifested. I can be in a loving relationship with a woman, but as soon as it is manifested by sexual union outside of marriage – it becomes evil. The same goes for a man who is friends with another man. If that friendship becomes sexual, it becomes evil in the sight of God.
 
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Elvisman

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Well, I conclude that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah doesn't condemn homosexuality for two reason. One is that the Prophet Ezekiel Mentions the two cities and doesn't mention homosexuality, rather a few other sins unrelated to homosexuality.

Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. -Ezekiel 16:49-50

The other thing is that the context of Sodom and Gomorrah, the mob isn't exactly inviting them out for consensual sex. They're talking about raping the two angles. That is not homosexuality any more than the rape of a woman by a man can be called heterosexuality.

The other reason why this isn't speaking out about homosexuality is that there's a story in the Bible, strikingly similar to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, except that this time, a girl is sent out and is raped and murdered by the men.

Sorry, but you’re rationalizing again based on a misinterpretation of the Scriptures.
Ezekiel doesn’t mention all of the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah in detail – however, he DOES speak of their “detestable” acts – and the story in Genesis explicitly talks about some of those act, which include homosexuality.

You say that their sin was the attempted rape of these men and not the homosexual aspect. WHY, then, does Lot ask them not to do this “wicked thing” and offers them his own daughters??

Look – the Bible doesn’t mention the Holy Trinity – not even ONCE. It DOES, however, teach the doctrine of the Trinity. The Bible doesn’t mention the word “homosexual” but it teaches against it. The words itself came MUCH later. The word isn’t found ANYWHERE in print prior to 1869 (Karl-Maria Kertbeny). HOWEVER, the idea of homosexuality has been around for millennia.
 
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FrancesJames09

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Right, I understand what you're saying about the moral law but . . . hang on, I just posted something above you having to deal with the same thing in a way. You're saying that the moral law that you're talking about is a prohibition against fornication outside of marriage and that this prohibition would then extend to homosexual acts? Well that's fine, that's not what I'm trying to disprove.

The only reason why I'm talking about the statements in Leviticus is because even if two people in Main were to get married, according to the Levitical verse, by some interpretations, they still wouldn't be allowed to have sex.

I'm trying to make a case for gay marriage, and you're right, it is God who puts together, and that no one can put asunder. However, if we can understand from reason and from nature that many people are born gay, it would seem to imply that gay people are a part of God's creation. Evolution has shown that the story of Adam and Eve is not literally true. Evolutionarily speaking, gay men and women have always been a part of the human race. Form our beginnings, from the first tribes to walk the earth, there have been gay people. We gay people were made in the beginning, too and are a part of God's plan. I read those parts of Genesis you quoted as being an instruction for heterosexual marriage, not as a blanket statement of how all marriages have to be.
 
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FrancesJames09

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Sorry, but you’re rationalizing again based on a misinterpretation of the Scriptures.
Ezekiel doesn’t mention all of the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah in detail – however, he DOES speak of their “detestable” acts – and the story in Genesis explicitly talks about some of those act, which include homosexuality.

I don't know that their detestable acts were homosexuality. What you're saying is an inference. I'm making inferences too, it's what happens when scripture is interpreted.

You say that their sin was the attempted rape of these men and not the homosexual aspect. WHY, then, does Lot ask them not to do this “wicked thing” and offers them his own daughters??

Because Lot was being hospitable. He was trying to save the two strangers, which is part of the Old Hebrew law. The man in the story also offers up his servant, and you may as well be asking why he sent her out for to be raped rather than himself. Probably for the reason why Lot was going to send out his daughters to be raped. The thing is that in the story I quoted above, the same thing does happen, except this time the servant girl is sent out. This doesn't make the act any less wicked. I would argue that it is just as wicked for the servant girl to have been raped as it was for the men to attempt raping the angles.
 
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Elvisman

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Yes, that was my response. So what? Why do you think it has anything to do with OSAS? I AM signed, sealed, and delivered. I have done nothing to lose my salvation. We are justified by faith. I made Jesus my savior long ago, and have not abandonded that position, nor turned my back on my faith in Him. So what are you talking about?
So, you’re saying that you cannot lose your salvation?
Is that what you’re saying?

OR, are you saying that you CAN lose it?

From your posts, your position is that anything that is NOT Catholic nor endorsed by the Catholic church is false doctrine, and no good Catholic could accept any other point of view outside of the church. Kissing the Koran shows that JP II is willing to allow others to believe what they want to. You have attacked my position because it is not totally in line with the Catholic church. Does the Catholic church accept the Koran? No. Yet, JPII kissed it, which goes wy beyond an act of good will. If it was anyone else, you would have attacked that person, but you give JPII pass. That's why it's hypocrisy.

This is ludicrous.

First of all, kissing the Koran doesn’t imply anything but gratitude. If acts of good will implied ANYTHING but good will, then shaking the hand of a fornicating friend would be an endorsement of their behavior.

Jesus ate and drank with tax collectors and other sinners. Was THAT an endorsement of their behavior?? What hogwash.

There is an old saying: “You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.”

If Jesus simply rebuked all of those sinners, they may never have come to believe. It was his charity and good will that won them over. It was the good will and charitable attitude of John Paul II that won over the hearts of millions.

I have said ALL ALONG that I have no problem with those scriptures, so why would I try to refute them or come up with some kind of come back?
Then state your belief about OSAS.
CAN you lose your salvation or not?
It’s a simple question . . .


I have said ALL ALONG that this is not an issue that really interests me, so why would I bother to provide scripture, alternative interpretations, etc.? It has been debated up and down on CF. All the pros and cons, Scripture quotes, etc., are already out there for everyone to read and consider. Why rehash it all? Why do you persist in pursuing this subject when I have said many times I don't care about it? It's not for me to judge or condemn another person, no matter what his or her sexuality may be.

This is preposterous.
If this subject does NOT interest you – then WHY in the world are you posting your opinions about it??
Why not simply ignore the thread?
 
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Catherineanne

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I am a defender of the faith.

:)

Congratulations.

With me it is the other way round, I am very happy to say; God is my shield and defender, a very present help in trouble.

How marvellous that you, however, are a shield and defender to the Living God; he must be so pleased to have you on his side, fighting his corner, chasing all the nasty liberals away from him, and ensuring that they never want to return.

Good luck with that.
 
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Elvisman

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I don't know that their detestable acts were homosexuality. What you're saying is an inference. I'm making inferences too, it's what happens when scripture is interpreted.

Wrong. The story in of the sex-crazed crowd of men in Sodom explicitly talks about their sin of homosexuality.

I have shown you twice that the SAME word יָדַע (‘yada’, “to know”) is used here in the sense of “to lie with” or “to have sex with.”


Because Lot was being hospitable. He was trying to save the two strangers, which is part of the Old Hebrew law. The man in the story also offers up his servant, and you may as well be asking why he sent her out for to be raped rather than himself. Probably for the reason why Lot was going to send out his daughters to be raped. The thing is that in the story I quoted above, the same thing does happen, except this time the servant girl is sent out. This doesn't make the act any less wicked. I would argue that it is just as wicked for the servant girl to have been raped as it was for the men to attempt raping the angles.

Because Lot was being hospitable?? You can’t be serious.

Offering his daughters up to the crowd was NOT the right thing to do nor was it “hospitable”.

Lot was desperate. FAITH is what he was lacking at that point. He wasn’t doing the “right” thing by offering his daughters for the crowd to fornicate with. He was surrendering them to quell the crowd. You are rationalizing.
 
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