The dysfunctional church; Has it always been around?

I have to admit I was wrong... as usual. All my Christian life I, like my peers, have compared the modern church with the New Testament church in order to be certain of the biblical conformity to God’s design. I don’t think that’s wrong, but on the other hand, after getting over the romantic image of a perfect model of church life that I’ve always perceived the apostle’s churches to be, I realize that they had all the very same issues that we do. Nothing has changed at all. The only advantage they had was that the apostles were present to personally be sure that they at least return to adherence to Jesus’ design. But even that wasn’t as effective as we might think!
I want to start right there.
The apostles themselves had issues, you know. They even disagreed with each other, suspected each other, and had to be corrected by one another. They made mistakes. They had to learn. Jesus didn’t just tell them everything. Some things He was content to allow them to work out through debates over the information they had been given. They were also victims of false teachers in their churches and leadership, and there is no evidence that they did anything to remove them! They had to fight for the purity of the church - not moral, though that too, but doctrinal.
One thing I must say, has always bugged me about God’s intention for the church, is that it is based on the design of Israel itself; and no one seems to see that but me! Things would function so much better. I mean, we are brethren. That is what the 12 tribes called each other. Even the apostles were told by the Lord that they would sit on 12 thrones ruling the 12 tribes of Israel! Often the apostle Paul, though he was the apostle to the Gentiles, used the statement, ‘As also says the law.’ Very strange, coming from someone who so vehemently taught that we were now dead to the law, and that it had been nailed to the cross of Christ, or that ‘all things are lawful for me.’ The holidays are a big issue for me, because both the calendar of the Jews which is based on the lunar cycle, whereas the pagan calendar we use is based on the worship of the sun, and the holy days and seasons were shadows of spiritual events to come - events that we are experiencing in the church. Every event of the church falls on a Jewish holiday. Jesus was killed on Passover, to become our Passover lamb. The church was born on Pentecost - the second of three great feasts (Lev 23), and the next great event is to be the ‘Feast of Trumpets’, an event on the Jewish calendar that has no apparent purpose at all, but to the church it means everything, because it is the also the Feast of Harvest - the harvest of the church, and the trumpet of God to announce this.
But we have replaced all these things with Pagan holidays and lost them. I have a Jewish friend who street preaches zealously, after he was saved by seeing the story of the gospel perfectly portrayed through Jewish feasts. Some have even tried to overlay the covenants and their own 12 apostles with the Gentile church.
I say all this because maybe I was wrong about this too. I mean, as the gospel went to the Gentile lands, these former pagan people developed the same kind of romance with the Jews that I did, and they tried to adopt that portrait so much that they re-instituted the law. It didn’t help that there were Jews who took advantage of this obsession to make themselves into teachers who were to lead the Gentiles back into this romantic image by teaching filling in all the traditions and legalism that the apostles hadn’t.
This was so effective that it went right back into the circle of the apostles themselves, and this was the stage for the memorable confrontation between Paul and Peter recorded in Gal 2:11-. Amazingly, the apostles and James, brother of Jesus, the great elder of the church, assembled a great council to resolve this issue, and there is no mention of so much as a prayer or Umim and Thumim to get the Lord’s opinion of the matter (Acts 15).
When Paul was converted, it took one bold, loving saint to step forward, though he was not an apostle, to receive the poor new believer, or suspicion might never have allowed him a place in the church.
But the very first issue in the church started with the rift between Hebraic Jews, and Hellenist Jews. It was a cultural thing that carried over from the Babylonian captivity, and had been the very vehicle for the destruction of Jerusalem by Antiochus Epiphanes, who favored the Hellenists and removed every trace of conservative Judaism down to the sacrifices and Sabbath, on penalty of death. (Please don’t quote me. I’m going on memory, and I’m too lazy to refresh my studies.) There is a saying among the Jews even today: ‘If there are two Jews in Jerusalem, there will be 3 parties.’ Personally I had no idea the Jews couldn’t get along; but even now there is a war between the Zionists and Rabbis, among many others.
In any case, Acts 6 tells how the fledgling church would handle its first real test of cohesiveness and love. We also see one of those examples of the traditions of Israel carried over into the church - something that is totally forsaken in today’s church. It was the welfare program for the widows. But because of the prejudicial hatred between these two cultures at war with each other since ancient days, and evidently the ones in charge of the distribution were of the Hebraic persuasion, the poor Hellenist widows were being denied their provisions. What a dark cloud was coming to shadow the believers who only recently were selling their properties to make sure that everyone in the church had financial equality!
I just can’t say enough for how wonderfully the apostle’s came through on this one, because they were not too proud to admit that on their watch, something was going wrong with the body of Christ. Rarely does this happen today! But rarely is there a care for the poor in the church, where the offering is given for the care of the institution rather than ‘alms’ for the needy according to the command of the Lord. The government is given that charge, while there is financial inequality in the church till the Lord returns.
But the apostles went so far as to swiftly appoint a stewards to handle the matter, then they returned to the spiritual care of church. How humble. How involved and concerned even for little things. Good shepherds are not above hearing complaints, nor for addressing them, even when it takes away from the more lofty concerns like prayer and teaching. How commendable! They did not complain that the sheep are always complaining about something!
Well, I’m beginning to disagree with my own point! But lest I give the wrong idea, let’s remember that John complained about one leader in particular, apparently under his itinerant care, named Diotrophes (3 Jhn), ‘who likes to have preeminence.’ I often wonder what kind of clergical arrangement John’s church had where one person could have total control of the congregation. I have never agreed with the Pastor setups we have today, because it seems quite obvious from the Jerusalem church, and from Paul’s command to Timothy and Titus to appoint elders (plural) in every church, that such an arrangement never existed in the original church. This problem in John’s church seems the Holy Spirit’s way of forecasting the damage that would come if such a set up existed. Diotrophes was bad, and in charge, and no one could challenge him without being ‘cast out of the church’. Why were they being kicked out? Because they were giving assistance to the missionaries and apostles whom Diotrophes was bad mouthing! The devil himself was in the pulpit! How did this happen?!
But John had bigger problems because all over the church world there were, not just pew-sitters, but leaders in the church who were taking the doctrines of Christ and blending them with ancient Satanic doctrines of Gnosticism, and effectively leading the sheep from Christ, yet in the name of Christ. It was so persuasive that John’s letters are written wholly to address this. We can see that there were several other cults that had risen by the time John wrote the Revelation, where the Lord himself addresses them by name.
Paul had his hands full with issues in the Gentile churches, where he dealt with immorality and conflicts that made the Jerusalem problem seem very minor by comparison. It was hard for these former pagans who had literally grown up steeped in ‘abominable idolatries’ that even make the inappropriate contentographic culture of today innocent really. We still have enough influence of the church in the world to hold back that approaching tide. It forms a moral dam in the global conscience that few recognize. But in the Greco-Roman world, only the Jews subscribed to such moral prudery.
Everyone remembers the Corinthian man who had relations with his mother-in-law openly, but fail to see Paul’s closing statement where he remarked that he wasn’t alone: For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. (2Co 12:20-21)
But it wasn’t just a problem in Corinth. Take Crete for example: For there are indeed many insubordinate men, empty talkers and mind-deluders, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouth you must stop, who overturn whole houses, teaching things which they ought not for the sake of ill gain. One of them, a prophet of their own, said: Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons. This testimony is true; for which cause convict them severely, that they may be sound in the faith, not listening to Jewish myths and commandments of men, having turned away from the truth. Truly, all things are pure to the pure, but to the ones being defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but even their mind and conscience has been defiled. They profess to know God, but by their works they deny Him, being abominable and disobedient, and worthless to every good work. (Tit 1:10-16)
Even the blessed Ephesian church that saw Paul off for the last time with tears wasn’t exempt: For I know this, that after my departure grievous wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and out of you yourselves will rise up men speaking perverted things, in order to draw away the disciples after themselves. (Act 20:29-30)

I have long had another romance with the persecuted church of the world today, figuring that when you are under constant threat of torture, prison, butchering, and violation, the mind cannot afford such sinful luxuries of this world; however, I had forgotten that the New Testament church was always under persecution as well. All these things they did, they did while fleeing and huddling in fear. I saw this first hand when ministering to refugees. A friend of mine lamented because some African brothers for whom he had provided cable to watch soccer games had somehow run the bill up to 300 dollars in a month! How? Well, they found out that they could order inappropriate contentography on demand with the push of a remote button. The english speaking children of these families learned quickly about the temptations of chat and hip-hop sites, and mtv, and the parents seemed to be oblivious to the immorality of these scenes in the background. I’d like to have preached on holiness and the dangers of America, but then I would have been a hypocrite myself. So I have to concede that they are us, and the New Testament believers are us, and we are them, and somehow the Lord reconciles our failures with the fact that we are His. But don’t say, ‘Well, the Lord knows those who are His, and only some will keep their robes white.’ I thought this way too, but when I recognize that Paul did not accuse the sinning saints in his care of being damned or reprobate (rather, he urged them to examine themselves), but he warned them that he would discipline them, and the Lord would discipline them. While he testified that many were ‘weak, sick, and some have fallen asleep (dead!)’ as a result of the Lord’s discipline, but never said that they were false believers. False believers do not receive the discipline of the Lord. ‘The Lord disciplines those He loves... everyone He receives as a son/daughter.’
 

JRSut1000

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I do believe however that the pattern of the 'church' (I prefer congregations) then was much closer to how its meant to be than it is today. The whole 'sing a few songs, hear a sermon from a man in the pulpit a few hours on sunday' just wasnt how it was meant to be ever. There's hardly any discipleship anymore, its rare when you see everybody operating in their gifts and callings within the church. It's more 'let the pastor do it all' and just sit and see what he does. What happened to the apostle and prophets role in the church? What happened to giving to one another in the body as they had need? What happened to marketplace ministry? I could go on and on and its saddening, but I do know there is yet hope because God is calling people and churches to restoration and some will listen to the call.
 
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gideons300

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Alpha, if our eyes are upon men, either their amazing feats or their abject failures, or the early church or the church we see now, we will not walk correctly or enjoy the full blessings of our wonderful savior.


Have you ever plowed, or mowed a big field? What is the secret to getting perfectly straight lines? You must keep your eyes on one spot, far off on the horizon, and when you look back, the line you have cut is like a razor, straight as an arrow.


If we look at the church present or past, in the west or in the east, and are not looking at Jesus only and his instructions for us as to how we can walk in victory, we will veer to one side and then the other, and we will walk in frustration and what we present to the world will have little appeal. It will not be clear to them what they must do and the pattern will look like a web spun by a spider on acid.


The church in China is an amazing thing, but they are very much in need of more truth. I have a pastor friend who works with World Serve and visits mainland China regularly. The lieutenants (that is how the undeground church functions and is organized, with lieutenants over regions) flock to him asking him to instruct them further on how to be like Jesus. He tells them with tears, "No brothers, I need what YOU have". Quite amazing.


Until we finally get the one thing needful, our being established in our new creature, and get our eyes off of ourselves, our strengths, our failures, others as well, and seek for that honor that comes from God alone, we CANNOT believe and our "church" will not yet be "without spot or wrinkle" just because we are a part of it! LOL.
Each must first build the part of the wall in ruins in front of their own house before assiting others. THAT is how we agwin become a walled city, safe from the attacks of the enemy. That was Nehemiah's counsel then, and a type and shadow for us as well.


Paul said this:


"Nothing profits but a new creature."


Oh that we might get that! Everything ...EVERYTHING changes when we do.


Blessings,


Gideon
 
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1watchman

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One must not try to judge the true Church by the sects today. Man has various innovations and activities that was not part of the Church in the beginning (note Acts 2:41-42 and the Epistles). One can see something of what God intended for His Church in ministry at the BibleCounsel site (Google it). Some of us throughout the world have been seeking to maintain that testimony God gave in the beginning (recognizing the Word of God as our only authority for the faith).
 
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ivanthegood

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I have to admit I was wrong... as usual. All my Christian life I, like my peers, have compared the modern church with the New Testament church in order to be certain of the biblical conformity to God’s design. I don’t think that’s wrong, but on the other hand, after getting over the romantic image of a perfect model of church life that I’ve always perceived the apostle’s churches to be, I realize that they had all the very same issues that we do. Nothing has changed at all. The only advantage they had was that the apostles were present to personally be sure that they at least return to adherence to Jesus’ design. But even that wasn’t as effective as we might think!
I want to start right there.
The apostles themselves had issues, you know. They even disagreed with each other, suspected each other, and had to be corrected by one another. They made mistakes. They had to learn. Jesus didn’t just tell them everything. Some things He was content to allow them to work out through debates over the information they had been given. They were also victims of false teachers in their churches and leadership, and there is no evidence that they did anything to remove them! They had to fight for the purity of the church - not moral, though that too, but doctrinal.
One thing I must say, has always bugged me about God’s intention for the church, is that it is based on the design of Israel itself; and no one seems to see that but me! Things would function so much better. I mean, we are brethren. That is what the 12 tribes called each other. Even the apostles were told by the Lord that they would sit on 12 thrones ruling the 12 tribes of Israel! Often the apostle Paul, though he was the apostle to the Gentiles, used the statement, ‘As also says the law.’ Very strange, coming from someone who so vehemently taught that we were now dead to the law, and that it had been nailed to the cross of Christ, or that ‘all things are lawful for me.’ The holidays are a big issue for me, because both the calendar of the Jews which is based on the lunar cycle, whereas the pagan calendar we use is based on the worship of the sun, and the holy days and seasons were shadows of spiritual events to come - events that we are experiencing in the church. Every event of the church falls on a Jewish holiday. Jesus was killed on Passover, to become our Passover lamb. The church was born on Pentecost - the second of three great feasts (Lev 23), and the next great event is to be the ‘Feast of Trumpets’, an event on the Jewish calendar that has no apparent purpose at all, but to the church it means everything, because it is the also the Feast of Harvest - the harvest of the church, and the trumpet of God to announce this.
But we have replaced all these things with Pagan holidays and lost them. I have a Jewish friend who street preaches zealously, after he was saved by seeing the story of the gospel perfectly portrayed through Jewish feasts. Some have even tried to overlay the covenants and their own 12 apostles with the Gentile church.
I say all this because maybe I was wrong about this too. I mean, as the gospel went to the Gentile lands, these former pagan people developed the same kind of romance with the Jews that I did, and they tried to adopt that portrait so much that they re-instituted the law. It didn’t help that there were Jews who took advantage of this obsession to make themselves into teachers who were to lead the Gentiles back into this romantic image by teaching filling in all the traditions and legalism that the apostles hadn’t.
This was so effective that it went right back into the circle of the apostles themselves, and this was the stage for the memorable confrontation between Paul and Peter recorded in Gal 2:11-. Amazingly, the apostles and James, brother of Jesus, the great elder of the church, assembled a great council to resolve this issue, and there is no mention of so much as a prayer or Umim and Thumim to get the Lord’s opinion of the matter (Acts 15).
When Paul was converted, it took one bold, loving saint to step forward, though he was not an apostle, to receive the poor new believer, or suspicion might never have allowed him a place in the church.
But the very first issue in the church started with the rift between Hebraic Jews, and Hellenist Jews. It was a cultural thing that carried over from the Babylonian captivity, and had been the very vehicle for the destruction of Jerusalem by Antiochus Epiphanes, who favored the Hellenists and removed every trace of conservative Judaism down to the sacrifices and Sabbath, on penalty of death. (Please don’t quote me. I’m going on memory, and I’m too lazy to refresh my studies.) There is a saying among the Jews even today: ‘If there are two Jews in Jerusalem, there will be 3 parties.’ Personally I had no idea the Jews couldn’t get along; but even now there is a war between the Zionists and Rabbis, among many others.
In any case, Acts 6 tells how the fledgling church would handle its first real test of cohesiveness and love. We also see one of those examples of the traditions of Israel carried over into the church - something that is totally forsaken in today’s church. It was the welfare program for the widows. But because of the prejudicial hatred between these two cultures at war with each other since ancient days, and evidently the ones in charge of the distribution were of the Hebraic persuasion, the poor Hellenist widows were being denied their provisions. What a dark cloud was coming to shadow the believers who only recently were selling their properties to make sure that everyone in the church had financial equality!
I just can’t say enough for how wonderfully the apostle’s came through on this one, because they were not too proud to admit that on their watch, something was going wrong with the body of Christ. Rarely does this happen today! But rarely is there a care for the poor in the church, where the offering is given for the care of the institution rather than ‘alms’ for the needy according to the command of the Lord. The government is given that charge, while there is financial inequality in the church till the Lord returns.
But the apostles went so far as to swiftly appoint a stewards to handle the matter, then they returned to the spiritual care of church. How humble. How involved and concerned even for little things. Good shepherds are not above hearing complaints, nor for addressing them, even when it takes away from the more lofty concerns like prayer and teaching. How commendable! They did not complain that the sheep are always complaining about something!
Well, I’m beginning to disagree with my own point! But lest I give the wrong idea, let’s remember that John complained about one leader in particular, apparently under his itinerant care, named Diotrophes (3 Jhn), ‘who likes to have preeminence.’ I often wonder what kind of clergical arrangement John’s church had where one person could have total control of the congregation. I have never agreed with the Pastor setups we have today, because it seems quite obvious from the Jerusalem church, and from Paul’s command to Timothy and Titus to appoint elders (plural) in every church, that such an arrangement never existed in the original church. This problem in John’s church seems the Holy Spirit’s way of forecasting the damage that would come if such a set up existed. Diotrophes was bad, and in charge, and no one could challenge him without being ‘cast out of the church’. Why were they being kicked out? Because they were giving assistance to the missionaries and apostles whom Diotrophes was bad mouthing! The devil himself was in the pulpit! How did this happen?!
But John had bigger problems because all over the church world there were, not just pew-sitters, but leaders in the church who were taking the doctrines of Christ and blending them with ancient Satanic doctrines of Gnosticism, and effectively leading the sheep from Christ, yet in the name of Christ. It was so persuasive that John’s letters are written wholly to address this. We can see that there were several other cults that had risen by the time John wrote the Revelation, where the Lord himself addresses them by name.
Paul had his hands full with issues in the Gentile churches, where he dealt with immorality and conflicts that made the Jerusalem problem seem very minor by comparison. It was hard for these former pagans who had literally grown up steeped in ‘abominable idolatries’ that even make the inappropriate contentographic culture of today innocent really. We still have enough influence of the church in the world to hold back that approaching tide. It forms a moral dam in the global conscience that few recognize. But in the Greco-Roman world, only the Jews subscribed to such moral prudery.
Everyone remembers the Corinthian man who had relations with his mother-in-law openly, but fail to see Paul’s closing statement where he remarked that he wasn’t alone: For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. (2Co 12:20-21)
But it wasn’t just a problem in Corinth. Take Crete for example: For there are indeed many insubordinate men, empty talkers and mind-deluders, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouth you must stop, who overturn whole houses, teaching things which they ought not for the sake of ill gain. One of them, a prophet of their own, said: Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons. This testimony is true; for which cause convict them severely, that they may be sound in the faith, not listening to Jewish myths and commandments of men, having turned away from the truth. Truly, all things are pure to the pure, but to the ones being defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but even their mind and conscience has been defiled. They profess to know God, but by their works they deny Him, being abominable and disobedient, and worthless to every good work. (Tit 1:10-16)
Even the blessed Ephesian church that saw Paul off for the last time with tears wasn’t exempt: For I know this, that after my departure grievous wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and out of you yourselves will rise up men speaking perverted things, in order to draw away the disciples after themselves. (Act 20:29-30)

I have long had another romance with the persecuted church of the world today, figuring that when you are under constant threat of torture, prison, butchering, and violation, the mind cannot afford such sinful luxuries of this world; however, I had forgotten that the New Testament church was always under persecution as well. All these things they did, they did while fleeing and huddling in fear. I saw this first hand when ministering to refugees. A friend of mine lamented because some African brothers for whom he had provided cable to watch soccer games had somehow run the bill up to 300 dollars in a month! How? Well, they found out that they could order inappropriate contentography on demand with the push of a remote button. The english speaking children of these families learned quickly about the temptations of chat and hip-hop sites, and mtv, and the parents seemed to be oblivious to the immorality of these scenes in the background. I’d like to have preached on holiness and the dangers of America, but then I would have been a hypocrite myself. So I have to concede that they are us, and the New Testament believers are us, and we are them, and somehow the Lord reconciles our failures with the fact that we are His. But don’t say, ‘Well, the Lord knows those who are His, and only some will keep their robes white.’ I thought this way too, but when I recognize that Paul did not accuse the sinning saints in his care of being damned or reprobate (rather, he urged them to examine themselves), but he warned them that he would discipline them, and the Lord would discipline them. While he testified that many were ‘weak, sick, and some have fallen asleep (dead!)’ as a result of the Lord’s discipline, but never said that they were false believers. False believers do not receive the discipline of the Lord. ‘The Lord disciplines those He loves... everyone He receives as a son/daughter.’


how about a bullet point version of this thread, not all of us have time for such a long discourse, but the thread sounds interesting
 
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how about a bullet point version of this thread, not all of us have time for such a long discourse, but the thread sounds interesting

Glad you asked. I know it probably sounds like I'm this real educated person who might be able to communicate that way, but I'll let you in on a little secret; The highest grade I completed was the 9th, and that was miraculous in view of the fact that I spent the 7th grade in a mental hospital (one of many), and the 8th grade at a half-way house for runaways. Heck, it's miracle that this country boy, raised on possums and coons even knows how to verbalize in english at all. None of the rest of my kin ever could. But I will take it under prayerful advisement. We all have to have some fault, you know.
 
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ivanthegood

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Glad you asked. I know it probably sounds like I'm this real educated person who might be able to communicate that way, but I'll let you in on a little secret; The highest grade I completed was the 9th, and that was miraculous in view of the fact that I spent the 7th grade in a mental hospital (one of many), and the 8th grade at a half-way house for runaways. Heck, it's miracle that this country boy, raised on possums and coons even knows how to verbalize in english at all. None of the rest of my kin ever could. But I will take it under prayerful advisement. We all have to have some fault, you know.


only if you want more responses, i'm a drop out myself.....actually kicked out might be a better term
 
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only if you want more responses, i'm a drop out myself.....actually kicked out might be a better term

Please pray for me that God will give me the miraculous guidance to do it. It takes so much to be able to concentrate. My mind is like a machine gun, spitting out idea over idea, and all I can do is try to keep up with my keyboard. Then I have some weird superstition about reviewing it before posting. I assure you I will try, though.
 
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ivanthegood

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Please pray for me that God will give me the miraculous guidance to do it. It takes so much to be able to concentrate. My mind is like a machine gun, spitting out idea over idea, and all I can do is try to keep up with my keyboard. Then I have some weird superstition about reviewing it before posting. I assure you I will try, though.


maybe just post a general idea for your thread as you started this one with........and add short responses with the many points you make in your long summery........its good stuff, i'm sure alot of folks would agree with you.........but when theres so many points and ideas brought forth its hard to decide which one to respond to
 
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x141

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We view the church by what we see with our eyes which brings a judgment that is not true. Three times the Lord told Peter rise and eat, three times the Lord said Don't call what I cleansed unclean. Three times Peter did not rise and three times Peter did not eat of the reality of this truth, even when it played out right in front of him, a stone appearing cut without hands. Peter was still judging the church with a judgment that was not true.

Where is the Bride, where is the house of God, where does God dwell, where is this city that is spoken of as being the bride of Christ. Where is our life hid. Who builds this house, who made the stone that was rejected the head of the corner. Are we still looking without to find this bride/kingdom/throne. Are we still thinking that we can add to this by thought.

As he is so are we. He has a bride, we have a bride. Each of us. To find your bride you must lose her.

Peter separated the church into an hiearchy when he said it wasn't right that the ones getting the word should also wait on tables. Paul used the law to justfiy this though I do believe he did not take anything for himself, he referenced this I believe at least once.

But who is Paul, who is Peter, who is Lisa, who is, who is ....

Peter was there when Jesus said he would send the promise from the Father, the Spirit that proceeds from the Father and that he would dwell in us forever and he would lead us into all truth, which is who the father is.

Where was the Father to Jesus. Where did Jesus think he was.

Joh_14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

The first question still needs an answer. "And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?"

John was there like Peter was, and heard like Peter, what Jesus said.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Jesus said, At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
 
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maybe just post a general idea for your thread as you started this one with........and add short responses with the many points you make in your long summery........its good stuff, i'm sure alot of folks would agree with you.........but when theres so many points and ideas brought forth its hard to decide which one to respond to

Thanks, I can use that.
 
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I do believe however that the pattern of the 'church' (I prefer congregations) then was much closer to how its meant to be than it is today. The whole 'sing a few songs, hear a sermon from a man in the pulpit a few hours on sunday' just wasnt how it was meant to be ever.

God knows. All I can do is pray for individuals anymore, till persecution comes. I think we're just surrounded by too many advertisements and pretty lights to resist for now. Remember, though, Jesus said that the fruit we'd produce would be 100 fold in some, but only 60 and 30 in others; just like the 5, 3, and single talent given to the stewards. There were Stevens and Phillips in the first church, but not everyone was 'full of the Spirit'. Some, God has just gifted to be models and paragons by whose light the rest of us follow. But no matter how hard we try, we will never equal them. Not everyone was filled with the Spirit from the womb like John the Baptist. ...and so on.
 
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gideons300

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God knows. All I can do is pray for individuals anymore, till persecution comes. I think we're just surrounded by too many advertisements and pretty lights to resist for now. Remember, though, Jesus said that the fruit we'd produce would be 100 fold in some, but only 60 and 30 in others; just like the 5, 3, and single talent given to the stewards. There were Stevens and Phillips in the first church, but not everyone was 'full of the Spirit'. Some, God has just gifted to be models and paragons by whose light the rest of us follow. But no matter how hard we try, we will never equal them. Not everyone was filled with the Spirit from the womb like John the Baptist. ...and so on.
Yeah, I think Jesus was not thinking very clearly when He told us that we would be overcomers simply by believing and yielding and looking away from ourselves to Him to do so. They did not have those pesky advertisements and bright lights to contend with..... Madison Avenue and Mr. Edison have ruined us all and we now have no hope....no hope.... :)

I hope, dear Alpha, you can see that my tongue is firmly in cheek, LOL. But remember, persecution is not a purifier. It is a sifter, a seperater of sheep from goats. It purifies the body of believers perhaps by eliminating false brethren, but it has no bearing on us individually as to our quality of walk. What we can do then, seeking Him with our whole heart, believing His amazing promises, can be done now far easier than when persecution hits. Jesus is the purifier that will get us through the persecutions.

The idea that persecution causes some magical transformation for us to become spiritual is similar to what most believe now, that somehow, the act of physical death can make Holy but the indwelling God cannot during this life. Somehow, both just seems a bit off-base to me, ya know?

I am praying brother. You have a gift, that which you have assumed is a curse. I just want you to open it.

You are loved...much.

Gideon
 
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seeingeyes

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Ahh yes, "The Good Old Days" are a powerful delusion. We all believe that there was some mystical time when people were more "moral" than they are today. But when was this time? During the fifties? During the 18th century? During the first century? Depends on who you ask. But whatever they answer, the answer is a lie. Mankind has always been deceitful and prideful and murderous. Always.

There are no "Good Old Days". Or rather, the "Good Old Days" are right now as you walk in the light of your God.

The farther you get down the path to your Dad the more clearly you will see your own sin. And of course, you will also clearly see your former sins in those who are now as you once were.

So of course it looks like the world is getting worse, the church is getting worse, people are getting worse. But they aren't. You are getting better. Your Dad is polishing you up. But until you were made to be a light in this world, you never bothered to wonder why everybody else didn't shine.

As you learn to see sin, you will see more sin. However, as you learn to recognize God's distinctive grace, you will spot it everywhere. In the early church, in the late church, in the scriptures, in history, even in the grocery store. It's all over the place!
 
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x141

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Ahh yes, "The Good Old Days" are a powerful delusion. We all believe that there was some mystical time when people were more "moral" than they are today. But when was this time? During the fifties? During the 18th century? During the first century? Depends on who you ask. But whatever they answer, the answer is a lie. Mankind has always been deceitful and prideful and murderous. Always.

There are no "Good Old Days". Or rather, the "Good Old Days" are right now as you walk in the light of your God.

The farther you get down the path to your Dad the more clearly you will see your own sin. And of course, you will also clearly see your former sins in those who are now as you once were.

So of course it looks like the world is getting worse, the church is getting worse, people are getting worse. But they aren't. You are getting better. Your Dad is polishing you up. But until you were made to be a light in this world, you never bothered to wonder why everybody else didn't shine.

As you learn to see sin, you will see more sin. However, as you learn to recognize God's distinctive grace, you will spot it everywhere. In the early church, in the late church, in the scriptures, in history, even in the grocery store. It's all over the place!

Nicely done.

Joh_10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.


 
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