can you be Christian and believe in abortion?

Publius said:

And you believe people should be allowed to take human life (the most innocent of human lives, no less)?

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With regards to abortion of a pregnancy... the final decision has to rest somewhere. I don't trust the government on this one. I cannot see the government seizing the bodies of pregnant women and forcing them to give birth. A pregnant woman isn't a ward of the state.

You do know that this is not what happens, right?

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Essentially the government would be empowered to lay claim on a pregnant woman's body and force her to give birth, or prosecute her criminally. The buck has to stop somewhere. I'd rather it stop in the hands of individual women.

And the baby's body?

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As long as she's pregnant, the baby is part of her body. Like I said, I think abortion is tragic. But someone has to have final say. I don't trust the government with this one. I feel better having it in the hands of individual women.

We're not talking about "her body". We're talking about the baby's body.

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As long as it is in the woman and part of her body, it's her sovereign responsibility. Yes, she will answer to God for the choices she makes from drinking while pregnant to abortion. I just don't trust the government with the power to force women to give birth.

Appeal to emotion.

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Nope. A factual situation. Her name is Sarah. She's real. Alive. She made the right choice with great cost. I honor her for that. And I'm thankful that the government had little say in the matter.

And this has what to do with taking the life of an baby...how?

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The point is... we often have the power to choose life or death. It comes with being a human being.

And we're talking about a baby's body, not the woman's body.

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I know you are. You are not factoring in the woman or her body. She's the mother. She's the host. She has a sovereign right and responsibility concerning the life she carries.

For somebody who claims to have been a combat medic, I would have thought they'd have trained you better than that. Glad I chose another MOS now.

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You speak like a person who has taken life or had to choose who lived and/or dies. 91B10.

Well, I'm sure that will come in handy if you're ever robbed by an unborn baby.

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Point is that in some circumstances it's legally for me to kill. I look at it like this, if I were kidnapped by a mad scientist and somehow impregnated and found that the pregnancy could kill me... the decision to carry it to term and die or to terminate the pregnancy should be mine. Not the governments.

Could you please try to keep at least one foot in reality?

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Reality is that Roe v. Wade and legalized abortion is with us. It will not be reversed. It's too political. Besides, each party wants it to remain a wedge issue to secure votes. They are playing a game with us. Now... we can either accept reality and help women... or banter in meaningless debates.

First of all, we don't prosecute people for doing something that is legal and, like it or not, it is legal to murder an unborn baby right now.

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There is no statue of limitations on murder. By that logic we couldn't prosecute war crimes of the Nazis. Also, your grandfathering murder. Inconsistant. In many cases abortion is morally murder. And women will answer to God for their choices.

Second, no, I don't believe the victims should be prosecuted because of the great emotional distress they're placed under and the influence that leads them to make such a terrible decision.

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Women who choose abortion are not victims. Ultimately they make the choice. You see... you're only going for political points and not placing responsibility where responsibility truly rests.

To believe the government shouldn't have laws against killing babies isn't libertarian. It's anarchy.

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Libertarian Party Platform on abortion:

Stealth001 said:

And that's the big difference. No other relationship in nature exists like being pregnant. Somewhere the final decision has to rest. I feel more comfortable that said choice rest in the hands of the woman...even if I feel her choice is absolutely unwarranted and will be judged by God. I look at it like this, if I were kidnapped by a mad scientist and somehow impregnated and found that the pregnancy could kill me... the decision to carry it to term and die or to terminate the pregnancy should be mine.

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Impossible scenario with no real world value at all.

They are one.

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No, no they're not. They have completely different DNA from each other. they share the same real estate, but they are not "one".

I understand your mechanical logic. However, reality is far more complicated when dealing with abortion.

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No, that is the reality. The EMOTION may be different because society has brainwashed people into believing that the baby growing inside the woman isn't a person until he/ she is born, but the truth of the matter is what I have already stated, which you never really responded to. How would it fare for someone to walk into a doctor's office and ask to have part of their body removed? Would the doctor say, "well, it is your body" or would they call the police to have someone admitted to be psychiatrically examined?

In Christ, GB

Publius said:

No, actually, I was agreeing with you and posted an example of flawed pro-abortion logic to further support your post.

I didn't say you were pro-abortion. That's why I said "imagine you are pro-abortion". And I didn't mean you, specifically, but "you" in the general sense.

Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

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LOL, ok. My mistake. It seems every excuse about abortion I hear is lame. Like "Its feeding off my body", as If someone is going to electively have body parts or organs surgicaly removed because it's feeding of your body, lol. Like goodbrother said. Or here's another one, "it hurts her feelings to be forced to carry it", lol. Or it doesn't appeal to her vanities because "it causes stretch marks".

good brother said:

Impossible scenario with no real world value at all.

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The point is, my health and my body is my sovereign right.

No, no they're not. They have completely different DNA from each other. they share the same real estate, but they are not "one".

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There is an essential biological co-inherence between a woman and the child in her womb. Until viability the very life and existence of the child is dependent upon the life and body of the mother. First, the egg originated from the mother. It didn't magically appear. The sperm was deposited by the father and fertilized the egg, in the mother. The egg attaches itself to the uterine wall where this co-inherent relationship develops and remains until viability.

This is unique in nature. You have two distinct living beings in union. Now, with regards to this subject, someone's right and will to subsist much triumph. Else, you'd have a woman who wants an abortion being forced by the state to give birth. I'm far more comfortable with the woman's right and will being the determinating factor. I don't trust the government to address this issue properly without making a political football out of it. Look at how government has made the issue already. It's just a wedge issue that both parties want to maintain. If the abortion issue was resolved tomorrow... they'd have to find another wedge issue. The POLITICAL ESTABLISHMENT has created a problem to secure votes.

No, that is the reality. The EMOTION may be different because society has brainwashed people into believing that the baby growing inside the woman isn't a person until he/ she is born, but the truth of the matter is what I have already stated, which you never really responded to. How would it fare for someone to walk into a doctor's office and ask to have part of their body removed? Would the doctor say, "well, it is your body" or would they call the police to have someone admitted to be psychiatrically examined?

In Christ, GB

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Frankly, being libertarian, if a person wants a part of their body removed or altered (consider sex change for example)... that too is their choice IF they can find a practitioner willing to render such services. While I might think they are crazy, it's a free country that honors the sovereign right of individual citizens. And that includes the sovereign right of a mother over her body and progeny while within the womb. I see this as a great moral responsibility. I do not believe women should take this lightly. And may God have mercy on the soul of any woman who abuses the right over her body.
*Please note, I didn't disregard your hypothetical situation as you did mine.

Stealth001 said:

Until viability the very life and existence of the child is dependent upon the life and body of the mother.

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By that definition, a three year old child could be aborted because he or she could not live without the care of his or her mother and father.

In Christ, GB

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to stop responding to you before frustration over the increasingly weird arguments you're making causes me to sin.

James 1:27
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God,the Father,is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction,and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

Exodus 22:22-24
You shall not mistreat any widow or fatherless child. If you do mistreat them, and they cry out to me,I will surely hear their cry,and my wrath will burn,and I will kill you with the sword,and your wives shall become widows and your children fatherless

Psalm 68:5
Father of the fatherless and protector of widows is God in his holy habitation.

Isaiah 1:17
Learn to do good; seek justice,correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause

Job 29:12
Because I delivered the poor who cried for help,and the fatherless who had none to help him.

Psalm 82:3
Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.

Psalm 146:9
The Lord watches over the sojourners; he upholds the widow and the fatherless,but the way of the wicked he brings to ruin.

Psalm 10:17
O Lord,you hear the desire of the afflicted; you will strengthen their heart; you will incline your ear

Exodus 22:22
You shall not mistreat any widow or fatherless child.

Acts 20:35
In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus,how he himself said,‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

Psalm 10:14
But you do see,for you note mischief and vexation,that you may take it into your hands; to you the helpless commits himself; you have been the helper of the fatherless.

Jeremiah 22:3
Thus says the Lord: Do justice and righteousness,and deliver from the hand of the oppressor him who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the resident alien,the fatherless,and the widow,nor shed innocent blood in this place

Matthew 25:40
And the King will answer them,‘Truly,I say to you,as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,you did it to me.’

Isaiah 10:2
To turn aside the needy from justice and to rob the poor of my people of their right,that widows may be their spoil,and that they may make the fatherless their prey!

Psalm 94:6
They kill the widow and the sojourner,and murder the fatherless;

John 1:1-51
In the beginning was the Word,and the Word was with God,and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him,and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life,and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness,and the darkness has not overcome it. ...

Psalm 106:38 They shed innocent blood,the blood of their sons and daughters,whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan,and the land was desecrated by their blood.

Isaiah 59:7 Their feet rush into sin; they are swift to shed innocent blood. They pursue evil schemes; acts of violence mark their ways.

. Proverbs 6:17 haughty eyes,a lying tongue,hands that shed innocent blood,

Jeremiah 22:17 “But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion.”

Joel 3:21 Shall I leave their innocent blood unavenged? No,I will not.” The LORD dwells in Zion!

Matthew 27:4 “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.” “What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.”

good brother said:

By that definition, a three year old child could be aborted because he or she could not live without the care of his or her mother and father.

In Christ, GB

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Not quite, but Dr. Peter Singer of Princeton believes that parents should be able to decide to terminate their child up to one month after birth if they feel the child doesn't live up to their expectations.

Peter Singer's Bold Defense of Infanticide

Matthew 25:31-46. "When the Son of man comes in his glory,and all the angels with him,then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations,and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,and he will place the sheep at his right hand,but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand,'Come,O blessed of my Father,inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food,I was thirsty and you gave me drink,I was a stranger and you welcomed me,I was naked and you clothed me,I was sick and you visited me,I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him,'Lord,when did we see thee hungry and feed thee,or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee,or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them,'Truly,I say to you,as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren,you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand,'Depart from me,you cursed,into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,I was a stranger and you did not welcome me,naked and you did not clothe me,sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer,'Lord,when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or n stranger or naked or sick or in prison,and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them,'Truly,I say to you,as you did it not to one of the least of these,you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment,but the righteous into eternal life.'

We cannot simply throw the issue of abortion in the faces of women and say, 'You decide and you bear the consequences of your decision.' As the church, our response to the abortion issue must be to shoulder the responsibility to care for women and children. We cannot do otherwise and still be the church. If we close our doors in the faces of women and children,then we close our doors in the face of Christ.

I do concede on one thing, and that is that God values your choice. He will not send you to heaven and he will not send you to hell. But if you choose to kill babies I can tell you where your not going. So no, you can not be a christain and believe in abortion. You can be a christain, have an abortion, and sincerely repent, but you can not believe in it, support it or even tolerate it.

My own personal experience with abortion was at the age of 19, I came home to my girlfriend and she told me that she was pregnant and she'd had an abortion. The fetus was "sucked" out of her. She never consulted me, or told me she was pregnant.

I'm not saying I wouldn't be apprehensive to take on those responsibilities at that age, but I can honestly say it's just a continuance of the sin, negligence and irresponsibility that allowed her to become pregnant in the first place.

This same girl went on to become a prostitute. That was who I lost my virginity too.

All you viewing abortion as a purely clinical process with no consequences are ignoring the spiritual outcomes that occur when a woman feels societal pressured to destroy her offspring.

good brother said:

By that definition, a three year old child could be aborted because he or she could not live without the care of his or her mother and father.

In Christ, GB

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Stop thinking like a machine. A three year old child isn't in the mother's body. The point is at the end of the day the choice to abort can either belong to the government or individual women. Those on the pro-choice side believe that the option to choose life or abortion should reside with the mother not a government bureaucrat.

Publius said:

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to stop responding to you before frustration over the increasingly weird arguments you're making causes me to sin.

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Causes you to sin? You might be tempted to sin and let me have it based on my responses. But ultimately... sin is a choice you make bro.

Stealth001 said:

Stop thinking like a machine. A three year old child isn't in the mother's body. The point is at the end of the day the choice to abort can either belong to the government or individual women. Those on the pro-choice side believe that the option to choose life or abortion should reside with the mother not a government bureaucrat.

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What does being inside the mother's body actually prove morally?

Being a Christian does not automatically make one's views and/or opinions Christian.

hwyangel said:

We cannot simply throw the issue of abortion in the faces of women and say, 'You decide and you bear the consequences of your decision.' As the church, our response to the abortion issue must be to shoulder the responsibility to care for women and children. We cannot do otherwise and still be the church. If we close our doors in the faces of women and children,then we close our doors in the face of Christ.

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You're not understanding me. I fully agree. Here's what I'm saying:

The church should serve women in crisis and advocate for a society that cares for women and meets the needs they face, especially in light of an unplanned pregnancy.

The government is best left out of the equation as far as policing what women choose to do with a pregnancy. It will only complicate matters and make them far worse.

Women should understand that the church stands by them and will pray for them and with them in all things. If a woman chooses abortion, the church should also inform her that abortion is a very serious moral choice. An unwarranted abortion is detestible in the sight of God. The church should ensure that she makes an informed decision and is aware of the services that the church can provide should she choose to keep the child.

hwyangel said:

I do concede on one thing, and that is that God values your choice. He will not send you to heaven and he will not send you to hell. But if you choose to kill babies I can tell you where your not going. So no, you can not be a christain and believe in abortion. You can be a christain, have an abortion, and sincerely repent, but you can not believe in it, support it or even tolerate it.

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So you're telling me that a REAL Christian can't be of the opinion that the government is best left out of the decision to abort?

I'd never advise a woman to abort. But I fear government power over individuals far more than I fear individuals making deeply personal and difficult moral choices for themselves.

Blessedj01 said:

My own personal experience with abortion was at the age of 19, I came home to my girlfriend and she told me that she was pregnant and she'd had an abortion. The fetus was "sucked" out of her. She never consulted me, or told me she was pregnant.

I'm not saying I wouldn't be apprehensive to take on those responsibilities at that age, but I can honestly say it's just a continuance of the sin, negligence and irresponsibility that allowed her to become pregnant in the first place.

This same girl went on to become a prostitute. That was who I lost my virginity too.

All you viewing abortion as a purely clinical process with no consequences are ignoring the spiritual outcomes that occur when a woman feels societal pressured to destroy her offspring.

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You're right. We can't be so clinical that we rule out the humanity of the issue. Women must be told how far reaching the effects can be after having chosen to have an abortion and encourage her to carry it to term. The church is the perfect vehicle for informing our society about the aftermath of abortion. The sad thing is... again government/politics would get in the way fo that. People would start thinking we are trying to sway people to be "Pro-Life" politically and disregard anything we have to say. Why is it that everything government touches goes to crap?