How to Spot Additions to the Text

And just for the record 12-13 does logically follow from 5-11 as well seeing as 5-11 has Paul giving us an example through Christ of selflessness

cybrwurm said:

paul did not write v.5-11, progmonk. Is this concept too diffificult for you to grasp?

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Do you have any actual MSS evidence?

Whether it belongs there is a different question as to whether Paul is quoting an early Christian hymn (which is the current scholarly reasoning behind the change in diction) I'd be far more at ease going with the current scholarly opinion than your own, that it is not written by Paul is clear from the change in diction, however it is just as easy to understand that Paul is quoting a hymn in order to further stress the idea that we are to follow the example of Christ is clear and incredibly Pauline in nature.

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There is also the view of canonised scripture such that what we have is what is canonised.

I'd also actually be hard pressed to think of the kenosis passage as neo-platonic, it hardly takes from my understanding of neo-platonism and seems to be rather inline with other early christological passages, like for instance John 1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... And the Word became flesh and took up residence among us, and we saw his glory, glory as of the one and only from the Father, full of grace and truth.

MOD HAT

This thread has been cleaned to remove some flaming posts.
Please keep the discussion civil.

Mark
Staff Supervisor

cybrwurm said:

check out the language, dude. since when does paul talk like a neo-platonist? for textual-critics diction is *very* important. different people use language in different ways. paul does not have the mind of a neo-platonist, ergo he does not use such language to express his theology. He doesn't need to. he's a jewish-theologian, not a philosopher. now if you're willing to accept the fact that paul is not the author of v.5-11, I'd be more than happy to discuss the significance and implications thereof. You go first ...

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It's a good point that different people use language differently, but this is not a substantiated argument at all. You are arguing based on labels as opposed to empirical evidence. prog's question of manuscript evidence is a legitimate one and it is not persuasive to say "check out the language" when you have not defined any categories for discussion.

I'm also quite unclear as to why you think we can do text criticism from an English translation.

cybrwurm said:

check out the language, dude. since when does paul talk like a neo-platonist? for textual-critics diction is *very* important. different people use language in different ways. paul does not have the mind of a neo-platonist, ergo he does not use such language to express his theology. He doesn't need to. he's a jewish-theologian, not a philosopher. now if you're willing to accept the fact that paul is not the author of v.5-11, I'd be more than happy to discuss the significance and implications thereof. You go first ...

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How do we know the textual critics are always right?


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cybrwurm said:

Please examine carefully the following passage from the writings
of the prophet Paulos of Damascus:

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Php 2:1 "So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any incentive of love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy,
Php 2:1 Therefore, if there be any rogation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any communion of the Spirit, if any bowels of compassion and feelings of compassion,
Php 2:1 &#949;&#953; &#964;&#953;&#962; &#959;&#965;&#957; &#960;&#945;&#961;&#945;&#954;&#955;&#951;&#963;&#953;&#962; &#949;&#957; &#967;&#961;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#969; &#949;&#953; &#964;&#953; &#960;&#945;&#961;&#945;&#956;&#965;&#952;&#953;&#959;&#957; &#945;&#947;&#945;&#960;&#951;&#962; &#949;&#953; &#964;&#953;&#962; &#954;&#959;&#953;&#957;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#945; &#960;&#957;&#949;&#965;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#962; &#949;&#953; &#964;&#953;&#962; &#963;&#960;&#955;&#945;&#947;&#967;&#957;&#945; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#959;&#953;&#954;&#964;&#953;&#961;&#956;&#959;&#953;

Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
Php 2:2 Fill up fully my joy, that to be same minded, of the same love, of one thinking, having togetherness with life.
Php 2:2 &#960;&#955;&#951;&#961;&#969;&#963;&#945;&#964;&#949; &#956;&#959;&#965; &#964;&#951;&#957; &#967;&#945;&#961;&#945;&#957; &#953;&#957;&#945; &#964;&#959; &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959; &#966;&#961;&#959;&#957;&#951;&#964;&#949; &#964;&#951;&#957; &#945;&#965;&#964;&#951;&#957; &#945;&#947;&#945;&#960;&#951;&#957; &#949;&#967;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#949;&#962; &#963;&#965;&#956;&#968;&#965;&#967;&#959;&#953; &#964;&#959; &#949;&#957; &#966;&#961;&#959;&#957;&#959;&#965;&#957;&#964;&#949;&#962;

Php 2:3 Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves.
Php 2:3 By no means according to provoking nor also vaingloriousness; but in meekness, to hold others to rise above yourselves.
Php 2:3 &#956;&#951;&#948;&#949;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#964; &#949;&#961;&#953;&#952;&#949;&#953;&#945;&#957; &#956;&#951;&#948;&#949; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945; &#954;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#948;&#959;&#958;&#953;&#945;&#957; &#945;&#955;&#955;&#945; &#964;&#951; &#964;&#945;&#960;&#949;&#953;&#957;&#959;&#966;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#965;&#957;&#951; &#945;&#955;&#955;&#951;&#955;&#959;&#965;&#962; &#951;&#947;&#959;&#965;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#953; &#965;&#960;&#949;&#961;&#949;&#967;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#962; &#949;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#969;&#957;

Php 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Php 2:4 Not everyone consider his own things, but also everyone the things of others.
Php 2:4 &#956;&#951; &#964;&#945; &#949;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#969;&#957; &#949;&#954;&#945;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#962; &#963;&#954;&#959;&#960;&#959;&#965;&#957;&#964;&#949;&#962; &#945;&#955;&#955;&#945; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#964;&#945; &#949;&#964;&#949;&#961;&#969;&#957; &#949;&#954;&#945;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#953;

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus.
Php 2:5 This mind be in you, which was in Christ Jesus also:
Php 2:5 &#964;&#959;&#965;&#964;&#959; &#966;&#961;&#959;&#957;&#949;&#953;&#964;&#949; &#949;&#957; &#965;&#956;&#953;&#957; &#959; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#957; &#967;&#961;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#969; &#953;&#951;&#963;&#959;&#965;

Php 2:12 Therefore, y beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:12 &#969;&#963;&#964;&#949; &#945;&#947;&#945;&#960;&#951;&#964;&#959;&#953; &#956;&#959;&#965; &#954;&#945;&#952;&#969;&#962; &#960;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#959;&#964;&#949; &#965;&#960;&#951;&#954;&#959;&#965;&#963;&#945;&#964;&#949; &#956;&#951; &#969;&#962; &#949;&#957; &#964;&#951; &#960;&#945;&#961;&#959;&#965;&#963;&#953;&#945; &#956;&#959;&#965; &#956;&#959;&#957;&#959;&#957; &#945;&#955;&#955;&#945; &#957;&#965;&#957; &#960;&#959;&#955;&#955;&#969; &#956;&#945;&#955;&#955;&#959;&#957; &#949;&#957; &#964;&#951; &#945;&#960;&#959;&#965;&#963;&#953;&#945; &#956;&#959;&#965; &#956;&#949;&#964;&#945; &#966;&#959;&#946;&#959;&#965; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#964;&#961;&#959;&#956;&#959;&#965; &#964;&#951;&#957; &#949;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#969;&#957; &#963;&#969;&#964;&#951;&#961;&#953;&#945;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#949;&#961;&#947;&#945;&#950;&#949;&#963;&#952;&#949;

Php 2:13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (RSV).
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (KJV)
Php 2:13 &#952;&#949;&#959;&#962; &#947;&#945;&#961; &#949;&#963;&#964;&#953;&#957; &#959; &#949;&#957;&#949;&#961;&#947;&#969;&#957; &#949;&#957; &#965;&#956;&#953;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#964;&#959; &#952;&#949;&#955;&#949;&#953;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#964;&#959; &#949;&#957;&#949;&#961;&#947;&#949;&#953;&#957; &#965;&#960;&#949;&#961; &#964;&#951;&#962; &#949;&#965;&#948;&#959;&#954;&#953;&#945;&#962;

So, No, there is not a whole bunch of verses missing!