Is it faith, works, or both?

fhansen

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Yes, we can increase in good deeds, and become better vis-a-vis the world. But becoming vis-a-vis the world doesn't make us any more just in the sight of God. Lutherans have always made a distinction between the passive righteousness of the sinner corum Deo (the righteousness freely given as a gift which avails before the face of God), and active righteousness corum mundo (righteousness which we work out in good deeds which hopefully increase from day to day vis-a-vis our neighbors). When Lutherans speak about forensic justification by grace alone through faith alone, we mean that about our status before God; but our status in sanctification, and our relationship to others, is of course grounded in our good works which flow from the infusion of God's graces.
The justice of man consists of loving God with his whole heart, soul, mind and strength and his neighbor as himself; there is no higher goal achievable, nothing of greater worth. That's what our existence is for and what true happiness for man consists of. Impossible for man apart from God, but with God...
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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The justice of man consists of loving God with his whole heart, soul, mind and strength and his neighbor as himself; there is no higher goal achievable, nothing of greater worth. That's what our existence is for and what true happiness for man consists of. Impossible for man apart from God, but with God...

I agree.
 
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OpenDoor

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Yes, and as scripture says, we're to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, which means, in other words, we're simply to be who He created us to be.
Indeed, we all make many mistakes. For if we could control our tongues, we would be perfect and could also control ourselves in every other way.
James 3:2

but no one can tame the tongue. It is restless and evil, full of deadly poison.
James 3:8

Thoughts?
 
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fhansen

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Indeed, we all make many mistakes. For if we could control our tongues, we would be perfect and could also control ourselves in every other way.
James 3:2

but no one can tame the tongue. It is restless and evil, full of deadly poison.
James 3:8

Thoughts?
God can tame our tongue. Remember that no sinners enter heaven-He'll have His way. He didn't create man to be a sinner, He didn't give man Laws man couldn't possibly obey, then blame man for not obeying them, then decide to save some at a later date anyway. He shows us the way. His purpose has always been to restore His creation back to the justice and order He created it with. Be patient and trusting; He'll finish the work He began in you.
 
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ananda

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You wrote, Not so, "One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you [believing Gentile], an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before YHWH. Num 15:15, see also Num 15:3,14; 9:14; 15:9; Lev 24:22; Isa 11:10, Isa 49:6, Isa 56, Zec 2:11, Zec 8:22,23, Eze 37:22, Psa 22, 86:9, 98:3, etc.

My reply, "You made the same mistake again. You quoted the O.T. which was written to the Jews by other Jews. For strangers, you put (Gentiles.) Not so. Gentiles were considered unclean, filthy, dogs. Jews did not hang with them. These strangers were other Jews who were not of their own country ...
I have sources which disagree. The words גר (ger, "stranger") found next to גור (guwr, "sojourns (among you)") in a verse refers to Gentiles who have associated themselves with Israel and its Elohim - YHWH:
Ger toshav (Hebrew: גר תושב‎‎ ger "foreigner" + toshav "resident"), is a term used in Judaism to refer to a gentile who is a "resident alien", that is, one who lives in a Jewish state and has certain protections under Jewish law, and is considered a righteous gentile (Hebrew: חסיד אומות העולם‎‎ hassid umot ha-olam "pious among the nations").
Concerning the new covenant, it was not established until the Holy Ghost came upon the apostles, Acts 2.
I am not convinced that we are in the period of the New Covenant. I believe we are still under the (erroneously called) "Old" Covenant - it has just been renewed by Messiah.

My comments concern the 4 gospels only, and my comparing of them to the witness of Paul gospel to the gentiles. Again Jesus told the apostles not to go from Israel, and to go only to the Jews.
Messiah was indeed sent only to Israel by the Father. Messiah was commanding His apostles to go to the Gentiles to bring them into the existing, renewed (kainos), Covenant (made primarily with Israel) as the means for the Gentiles' eternal salvation. In essence, Gentiles wishing to partake of YHWH Elohim's eternal salvation and must join themselves to Israel, and those who have are in effect no longer "Gentiles," but sojourners with Israel:
Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. Adonay YHWH which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him. (Isa 56:6-8)

One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before YHWH. (Num 15:15) also see Num 15:3,14; 9:14; 15:9; Lev 24:22; Isa 11:10, Isa 49:6, Isa 56, Zec 2:11, Zec 8:22,23, Eze 37:22, Psa 22, 86:9, 98:3, etc.

also: And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. John 10:16, also Lk 14:21​
What Paul taught was a mystery hidden in God,
Where are Paul's two or more witnesses to the new "mysteries" he taught (Lev 5:1, 1Jn1:2, Job 29:11, Jn 5:31, etc.), and, do Paul's mysteries agree with the law and the prophets (Isa 8:20, 30:9-14, etc.)?

Paul taught, the gospel of grace to the Gentiles, and Jews.
I don't deny that; what we do disagree on is the method of salvation:

You agree with Paul when he states that grace, apart from the Law, was given to the Gentiles as their means of salvation. In consequence to this doctrine, and by implication, there is a different, "older," way of salvation, for the Jews alone.

I disagree. As I stated previously in this post, the way of salvation for both Jews and Gentiles is one and the same, under the One Existing (commonly called "Old") Covenant. This Way was taught by both YHWH, with Messiah in agreement: believing Gentiles are brought into this Covenant, and are saved through repentance, trust, and obedience, in the same way as the Jew.

Messiah came to earth to reinforce the message of the Torah and the Prophets, not to discard it. His parables continually reinforced the Torah concept of repentance, trust, and obedience, and the necessity of producing fruit for Him and the Father. In the Sermon on the Mount, He expounded Torah, and taught us the correct way to observe it. He warned us against those who would discard Torah. He followed Torah completely and perfectly - He had to, in order to be the perfect sacrifice! Yes indeed, He expects His disciples to follow Him!
 
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ananda

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As Christians we are to accept all the Scripture ... All the books are to be seen as of equal value, rather than some accepted as Scripture while others are seen as wannabe Scripture.
I believe Messiah would disagree. He repeatedly emphasized the first two sections of the Tanach - the books of the Law (Torah) and the books of the Prophets (Neviim) - to the exclusion of the books of the Writings (Ketuvim).

rejecting St. Paul's epistles so that they could put the necessity to obey their ecclesiatical laws in his place.
The only reason we can and should reject any writing is if that writing is in disagreement with YHWH Elohim's Laws.
 
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Harry3142

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What we need to ask is, "How do we succeed in saying and doing what God wants of us?" If we could have done it through the keeping of laws and commandments, then there would have been no need for Christ and his sacrifice. Read message #11 on this thread.
 
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Lion King

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Indeed, we all make many mistakes. For if we could control our tongues, we would be perfect and could also control ourselves in every other way.
James 3:2

but no one can tame the tongue. It is restless and evil, full of deadly poison.
James 3:8

Thoughts?

This is the reason God instructs us not to "make flesh our arm", but to rely only on the Holy-Spirit to lead us in all our walks of life. Those who walk in the Spirit will NEVER sin! Those who live in the Spirit will be able to CONTROL their tongues through Christ.:thumbsup:

"You will be holy; for I am holy."
 
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OpenDoor

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He didn't create man to be a sinner, He didn't give man Laws man couldn't possibly obey, then blame man for not obeying them
Sadly in the fallen state of man (before unity with Christ), no one is able to fully obey the law.

Be patient and trusting; He'll finish the work He began in you.
:amen:
 
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thomasalias

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Jas_1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.


Yea, i'm judging myself. Thanks for the reminder.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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I am not convinced that we are in the period of the New Covenant. I believe we are still under the (erroneously called) "Old" Covenant - it has just been renewed by Messiah.

And which "old covenant" would that be? Because covenant theologians of the Catholic, Reformed, and Lutheran traditions would agree with you, as long as you're talking about the Abrahamic covenant, not the Mosaic covenant. One is a unilateral royal grant-type covenant, and the other is a bilateral suzerain-vassal treaty-type covenant.
 
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Melethiel

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I am not convinced that we are in the period of the New Covenant. I believe we are still under the (erroneously called) "Old" Covenant - it has just been renewed by Messiah.

Um, didn't Jesus specifically say that he was inaugurating a new covenant? And he made it pretty clear that it was starting then, not at some unspecified time in the future.
 
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ananda

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And which "old covenant" would that be? Because covenant theologians of the Catholic, Reformed, and Lutheran traditions would agree with you, as long as you're talking about the Abrahamic covenant, not the Mosaic covenant. One is a unilateral royal grant-type covenant, and the other is a bilateral suzerain-vassal treaty-type covenant.
I am speaking of all covenants as found in Torah, including the Abrahamic and Mosaic, when I refer to "The Covenant." I see the various individual covenants as parts of the whole.
 
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ananda

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Um, didn't Jesus specifically say that he was inaugurating a new covenant? And he made it pretty clear that it was starting then, not at some unspecified time in the future.
In all three references in the 4 Gospels (Mt 26:28, Mk 14:24, Lk 22:20), most mainstream translations claim that Messiah said "this is my blood of the new testament".

The word "new" is translated from the Greek word καινῆς/καινός/kainos. The Greek word "kainos" does mean "new," but in the sense that something was unused for a long time, and is now brought back again; so it seems new again. Therefore, it is more accurately translated "renewed" - as some translations translate it.

If Messiah wanted to say that it was "totally brand spanking new, never ever seen before," then he would have used the Greek word neos instead. But He didn't.
 
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Frogster

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In all three references in the 4 Gospels (Mt 26:28, Mk 14:24, Lk 22:20), most mainstream translations claim that Messiah said "this is my blood of the new testament".

The word "new" is translated from the Greek word καινῆς/καινός/kainos. The Greek word "kainos" does mean "new," but in the sense that something was unused for a long time, and is now brought back again; so it seems new again. Therefore, it is more accurately translated "renewed" - as some translations translate it.

If Messiah wanted to say that it was "totally brand spanking new, never ever seen before," then he would have used the Greek word neos instead. But He didn't.

It's not a renewed cov, or the gentiles would be bound to the full Mosaic law, and the council in Acts 15, said no to the gentiles getting under Jewish law. If the full old cov were written on hearts in it's full legal sense, then gentiles would have to become Jewish, and that is not the way for the church. If the old were written inside, in it's full legal sense, it would have to be followed externally in it's full sense, and we see that the Jewish Christians in Antioch, were not living torah, so there goes this whole renewed thing. frog.:wave:

Not only that, but Jesus could not be a priest under the old cov, he did not meet the requirements of the law.

See Heb 7:12, 7:16, 7:18 for legalities, and Hebrews 8:4, makes a clear juxtaposition of the heavenly priest Jesus, not being under the old cov law, those who were are on the earth were of the law, again two different legalities without a doubt, no renewed cov. He would not be a priest, read 8:4, and u will see what I mean.
 
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Frogster

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That's a conveniently self-serving take on the verse.

No, man is not justified or saved by the Law but man must still obey the Law. Paul doesn't need to overthrow his whole theology because He understood this fact well. Under the OC obedience was impossible; under the NC, the convenant of grace, all things are possible, because the NC is 'God with us', becoming our God again, as was originally meant to be, man and God communing. This is the only way in which man's moral integrity/justice can be attained.

Not self serving, keep reading chpt two, he is actually about to show Jewish hypocrisy, "the hearers of the law" those of 2:13 who heard the law every sabbath who did not keep it. They stole, and did all the things that are listed as you read on. Basically much or Rom 1-3, is showing all judged under law, how people knew better, and hypocrisy, so we have to get the tone and the flow, to read 2:13 in context, and tone.

2:24 For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”



27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law.
 
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