Is it faith, works, or both?

Frogster said:

Law, from Paul..

It was dung life in Phil 3,

the power of sin is the law 1 Cor 15:56,

the law was temporary Gal 3:19,

the law was for children Gal 4:3,

the law works wrath Rom 4:15,

sinful passions were aroused under law Rom 7:5,

the law is not the gospel Gal 3;9-10,

life under law is cursed Gal 3:10 and 3:13,

the law is not of promise Gal 3;18 and Rom 4:14,

they received the Spirit not by law Gal 3:2 ,

they did not have miracles by law Gal 3:5,

the law does not justify Rom 3:20,

the law did not give life Gal 3:21

the law did not sanctify Gal 3:3,

sin has dominion under law Rom 6:14,

law life was bondage Gal 4:3,

the law was elemental Gal 4:3,

the law was called a prison that held in sin Gal 3:22-23,

the law is not grace Rom 11:6,

we are not heirs by law Rom 4:16,

the law is not of faith Gal 3:12,

Peter called the law a yoke, as did Paul in Acts 15,

James did not want to burden the church with the law Acts 15,

the law is not the cross Gal 5:11 and Gal 3:1,

the law was abolished Eph 2:15,

nailed to the cross Col 2:14,

the law caused division between Gentile and Jew in Eph 2:14-15,

and with man and God Eph 2;16-18,

we are not sons by law Gal 4:6, the law was a ministry of death and condemnation 2 Cor 3:7-9,

the law could not cleanse guilt Heb 9:14 and 10:4,

to revert to the old cov was to spurn the Spirit of grace and the blood of the Cov, it was sin Heb 10:26-29.,

Christ is the end of the law Rom 10:4.

there was a time when there was no law Rom 5:13,

it was a ministry of death and condemnation, 2 Corinthians 3.

Whew!

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And yet…we’ll still be judged by the Law, because it’s not he who hears the law but he who obeys it who will be declared righteous. (Rom 2:12-13)

Why? Because the Law is holy, spiritual, and good. (Rom 7)
But I’m not:
“We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.” (Rom 7:14)

Who will rescue man from this plight? (Rom 7:24)
“Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!” Rom 7:25

By reconciling man with God and instituting the New Covenant, Jesus ushers in the promises prophesied by the Prophet Jeremiah. By responding with faith in God, where His Spirit begins to live in man again, (becoming his God again), God accomplishes in us what we can’t do on our own:

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.” Jer 31:33

The problem, IMO, comes when we make justification, and therefore salvation, out to be a one-time event rather than a process. If righteousness is merely imputed, if we’re only declared to be a new creation, permanently, then the Law would have served it’s purpose and have no more reason to exist. But the truth is that we’re simultaneously saint and sinner until the ideal becomes the reality, until God, the Potter and Author, is finished with His molding and writing. Therefore the Law still has meaning and purpose simply because we’re, practically speaking, still sinners.

fhansen said:

And yet…we’ll still be judged by the Law, because it’s not he who hears the law but he who obeys it who will be declared righteous. (Rom 2:12-13)

Why? Because the Law is holy, spiritual, and good. (Rom 7)
But I’m not:
“We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.” (Rom 7:14)

Who will rescue man from this plight? (Rom 7:24)
“Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!” Rom 7:25

By reconciling man with God and instituting the New Covenant, Jesus ushers in the promises prophesied by the Prophet Jeremiah. By responding with faith in God, where His Spirit begins to live in man again, (becoming his God again), God accomplishes in us what we can’t do on our own:

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.” Jer 31:33

The problem, IMO, comes when we make justification, and therefore salvation, out to be a one-time event rather than a process. If righteousness is merely imputed, if we’re only declared to be a new creation, permanently, then the Law would have served it’s purpose and have no more reason to exist. But the truth is that we’re simultaneously saint and sinner until the ideal becomes the reality, until God, the Potter and Author, is finished with His molding and writing. Therefore the Law still has meaning and purpose simply because we’re, practically speaking, still sinners.

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dude, if u can't see, that 2;13 was a polemic against the jews, who heard, heard the law, as per 2;13, every sabby, but could not keep it, or did not obey, there is no point in continuing on. You don't seem to understand the context, and emotions of the diatribe of those chapters.

why would Paul overthrow his whole theology after many years, and his theology RIGHT IN THIS EPPISTLE, AND IMPLY THAT MEN ARE SAVED BY WORKS? DID U SEE THE CULMINATIVE THOUGHT IN 3:20? NO ONE IS SAVED BY LAW, BUT THEY GET A KNOWLEDGE OF SIN, THE VERTY SIN, THAT WAS AROUSED BY THE LAW , IN ROM 7.

soooo, we see that the spirutal law, did not justify, as you imply by 2;13, and it aroused sin, in Romans 7:5.


5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death

We wil not be judged by law, as per Romans 8;1, no condemnation, as per salvation, rewards yeah, but not salvation.

fhansen said:

And yet…we’ll still be judged by the Law, because it’s not he who hears the law but he who obeys it who will be declared righteous. (Rom 2:12-13)

Why? Because the Law is holy, spiritual, and good. (Rom 7)
But I’m not:
“We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.” (Rom 7:14)

Who will rescue man from this plight? (Rom 7:24)
“Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!” Rom 7:25

By reconciling man with God and instituting the New Covenant, Jesus ushers in the promises prophesied by the Prophet Jeremiah. By responding with faith in God, where His Spirit begins to live in man again, (becoming his God again), God accomplishes in us what we can’t do on our own:

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.” Jer 31:33

The problem, IMO, comes when we make justification, and therefore salvation, out to be a one-time event rather than a process. If righteousness is merely imputed, if we’re only declared to be a new creation, permanently, then the Law would have served it’s purpose and have no more reason to exist. But the truth is that we’re simultaneously saint and sinner until the ideal becomes the reality, until God, the Potter and Author, is finished with His molding and writing. Therefore the Law still has meaning and purpose simply because we’re, practically speaking, still sinners.

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if u think God is writing the same laws on our hearts, get rid of the catholic prisethood, because Jesus is a heavenly priest, and could not even be a priest under levitical law, so there goes the catholic priesthood big time, see heb 7;13, 7;17, 7;18, and 7;16, plus heb 8;4.

those laws were not for Christ, much more not for your earthly priests.

in other words, the new cov is not wiring old cov priesthood laws, so there is no claim under the new cov, for the catholic priesthood, those laws are not written.

Lion King said:

Did James the apostle teach adultery to the children of Israel, then? Did James also actually encourage Paul to commit adultery too?

When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers and sisters received us warmly. The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.
When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. Acts 21:17-24

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Consider this if you will:

Luke 20:13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
Luke 20:14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
Luke 20:15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
Luke 20:16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.

The Jews were God chosen, anointed and appointed husbandmen of the vineyard. Jesus prophesised to them that God would come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others.

Remember how David would not harm even the hem of king Saul, even though God had chosen David over Saul to be king. Even though king Saul had fallen, whilst he still lived, he was still the anointed of God. David was still subject to the rule of king Saul, whilst he still lived.
David would not do anything to usurp God’s anointed king, as it was for God to remove king Saul and until God did that, Saul still reigned as king.

The Church in Jerusalem was still subject to Jewish rule and laws, until God removed them as His husbandmen, of the vineyard.

Partaker of Christ said:

The Church in Jerusalem was still subject to Jewish rule and laws, until God removed them as His husbandmen, of the vineyard.

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What are you talking about? Didn't you just say that the Law was crucified with Christ? So, why did James insist that Paul follow the Mosaic customs, even after Christ ascension?

Partaker of Christ said:

The Jews were God chosen, anointed and appointed husbandmen of the vineyard. Jesus prophesised to them that God would come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others.

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The Jews are still God's chosen people for the sake of their ancestors...

ViaCrucis said:

It's God's grace, apprehended through the faith He gives us.

Saying we have faith, believing all the right things without putting our faith into practice, however, is deadness and we might as well admit that we have no faith.

As Luther put it, one can no more separate faith from good works as one can separate heat from a flame. Faith does good works.

-CryptoLutheran

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Bingo.

Lion King said:

What are you talking about? Didn't you just say that the Law was crucified with Christ? So, why did James insist that Paul follow the Mosaic customs, even after Christ ascension?

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gimmie a break, acts 15? He and peter said not to burden with the law, a yoke! james was just saying to paul, tell them not to freak out the jews, by eating blood..yeah, don't offer to demons too, but u r ignoring soo much, as u strain in acts 15 to promote law.

Jesus said i add no further burden, same words as james in acts 15, as in rev 2:24, so your theological prooftext won't stand.

Lion King said:

The Jews are still God's chosen people for the sake of their ancestors...

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gentiles are also the elect as per rom 11;7, and the jews have to let go of lineage, law, judaism etc, let me know if u want text to back it up.

fhansen said:

And yet…we’ll still be judged by the Law, because it’s not he who hears the law but he who obeys it who will be declared righteous. (Rom 2:12-13)

Why? Because the Law is holy, spiritual, and good. (Rom 7)
But I’m not:
“We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.” (Rom 7:14)

Who will rescue man from this plight? (Rom 7:24)
“Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!” Rom 7:25

By reconciling man with God and instituting the New Covenant, Jesus ushers in the promises prophesied by the Prophet Jeremiah. By responding with faith in God, where His Spirit begins to live in man again, (becoming his God again), God accomplishes in us what we can’t do on our own:

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.” Jer 31:33

The problem, IMO, comes when we make justification, and therefore salvation, out to be a one-time event rather than a process. If righteousness is merely imputed, if we’re only declared to be a new creation, permanently, then the Law would have served it’s purpose and have no more reason to exist. But the truth is that we’re simultaneously saint and sinner until the ideal becomes the reality, until God, the Potter and Author, is finished with His molding and writing. Therefore the Law still has meaning and purpose simply because we’re, practically speaking, still sinners.

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I completely agree, and the Formula of Concord, the pinnacle of the Lutheran confessions, says exactly this. Imputation of forensic righteousness is always followed by infusion of love, and faith works itself out in love guided by the law in its "third use."

What Lutherans take exception to is the idea that God's total adoption of the sinner in baptism is ever superseded by additional infusions of grace in subsequent sacraments or that, having been marked as righteous by baptismal grace alone, we are later judged according to some standard other than our baptism.

Thus, the Lutheran theology of the sacrament of confession and absolution, while including the idea of infused grace that empowers us to carry out God's law, does not include penance. Our conception of absolution is that absolution points a person back to their baptism and a status they have always retained but of which they have lost sight. It says to us, doubly: "You are baptized, so of course you are forgiven; You are baptized, now act like it."

LaSpino3 said:

But Christian's are not bound by the law, and being in Christ, are saved by His finished work, and by the grace of God; they having saving faith.

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Romans 2 applies to everyone. Everyone is bound by the Law, considered in light of Jesus’ summing up the Law and the Prophets with the two greatest commandments, because the Law is the will of God for man. God never willed man to break the Law to begin with and He doesn’t desire man to remain a lawbreaker now. The Law was simply incapable, by and of itself, to justify man; even though the Law is holy, spiritual, and good. It could only serve as a teacher to instruct us in how we should be, and how we fall short of being who we should be. The New Covenant is not freedom from the Law-as if God's no longer concerned with sin; the New Covenant is freedom from sin and therefore the enablement by God to obey the Law, to help us be who we were created to be.

We’re all bound by the Law, because we’re all bound to love, but we’re not under the Law, as if it could justify us, i.e. as if it could produce love in us; we’re under grace for that purpose, and then ‘love fulfills the Law’.

LaSpino3 said:

The following is self explanatory.

Gal.3:12-13, "The law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them (attempts to keep them) shall live (and die) in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us."

Phil LaSpino

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The Law is based on the righteousness of God, spoken of in Phil 3:9. Fallen man, OTOH, has a "righteousness" of his own, because it's not based on faith but based on the Law. Both the Law and faith seek the same thing: obedience of God. The difference is in how we obey; one is from my own efforts, by my own "righteousness", while the other is based on faith/trust in God, allowing His, authentic, righteousness to operate and prevail. Either way, authentic righteousness is still required, not a merely imputed righteousness.

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Rom 2:6-7

As Christians we are to accept all the Scripture found in the New Testament as being authored by men, but dictated to those men by the Holy Spirit. This includes the epistles which St. Paul wrote. All the books are to be seen as of equal value, rather than some accepted as Scripture while others are seen as wannabe Scripture. This means that we are indeed saved by grace, rather than works of the law.

I have seen the tactic of attempting to relegate St. Paul's epistles to the scrapheap before, and each time I saw it the motive behind it had nothing whatsoever to do with enlightenment. Instead, it was a manipulative tactic used by certain sects on the fringe of Christianity, who were attempting to talk us Christians into rejecting St. Paul's epistles so that they could put the necessity to obey their ecclesiatical laws in his place. At least four different denominations/sects have attempted to convince me that I need to set aside the epistles of St. Paul as being of no value, only to also convince me that I need the leadership of that particular denomination/sect in order to earn my salvation (four different denominations/sects all claiming to be the sole means of obtaining salvation cannot all be true. It is more appropriate to see all four denominations/sects as being false, and Scripture itself as being true, including the epistles of St. Paul).

St. Paul's epistles have been a barrier to many people who have conspired to lead Christians astray. Instead of accepting that God himself has provided the means of our salvation, they would have us believe that it is only through our obeying their leadership that we have assurance of salvation. Instead of accepting the Scripture which states that we are no longer slaves to the law, but that our sins have been cleansed and expiated through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, they would have us believe that we are bound by the laws as their heirarchy interprets those laws to be. But when their true goal is seen for what it is, namely, a desire to have absolute power over others, then their message is seen for what it is rather than for what they would have it be seen as being.

Frogster said:

dude, if u can't see, that 2;13 was a polemic against the jews...

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That's a conveniently self-serving take on the verse.

Frogster said:

why would Paul overthrow his whole theology after many years, and his theology RIGHT IN THIS EPPISTLE, AND IMPLY THAT MEN ARE SAVED BY WORKS? DID U SEE THE CULMINATIVE THOUGHT IN 3:20? NO ONE IS SAVED BY LAW, BUT THEY GET A KNOWLEDGE OF SIN, THE VERTY SIN, THAT WAS AROUSED BY THE LAW , IN ROM 7.

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No, man is not justified or saved by the Law but man must still obey the Law. Paul doesn't need to overthrow his whole theology because He understood this fact well. Under the OC obedience was impossible; under the NC, the convenant of grace, all things are possible, because the NC is 'God with us', becoming our God again, as was originally meant to be, man and God communing. This is the only way in which man's moral integrity/justice can be attained.

fhansen said:

No, man is not justified or saved by the Law but man must still obey the Law. Paul doesn't need to overthrow his whole theology because He understood this fact well. Under the OC obedience was impossible; under the NC, the convenant of grace, all things are possible, because the NC is 'God with us', becoming our God again, as was originally meant to be, man and God communing. This is the only way in which man's moral integrity/justice can be attained.

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"Man is not justfied or saved by the Law but man must still obey the Law."

This is not the issue over which Luther was excommunicated. Lutherans and Calvnists have always maintained that we must obey God's law. Lutherans, in particular, had a major debate over this in the 1570s and the result- that the law is still operative as a guide for Christians- is enshrined in our confessions, the Book of Concord. And moreover, we contend strongly that one of the great ends of justification is that it brings us to a place of ethical behavior in accordance with God's will for creation.

Catholic dogma, as codified at Trent, however, includes the notion of meritorious rewards for works which increase a person's standing before God. Lets not brush that under the carpet.

GratiaCorpusChristi said:

"Man is not justfied or saved by the Law but man must still obey the Law."

This is not the issue over which Luther was excommunicated. Lutherans and Calvnists have always maintained that we must obey God's law. Lutherans, in particular, had a major debate over this in the 1570s and the result- that the law is still operative as a guide for Christians- is enshrined in our confessions, the Book of Concord. And moreover, we contend strongly that one of the great ends of justification is that it brings us to a place of ethical behavior in accordance with God's will for creation.

Catholic dogma, as codified at Trent, however, includes the notion of meritorious rewards for works which increase a person's standing before God. Lets not brush that under the carpet.

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We must obey God as he leads, as the wicked and lazy servant in the Parable of the Talents refused to do. We absolutely can increase in justice, i.e. grow in love, that's what sanctification is, BTW. Otherwise however we find ourselves now is as good as it gets.

fhansen said:

We must obey God as he leads, as the wicked and lazy servant in the Parable of the Talents refused to do. We absolutely can increase in justice, i.e. grow in love, that's what sanctification is, BTW. Otherwise however we find ourselves now is as good as it gets.

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Yes, we can increase in good deeds, and become better vis-a-vis the world. But becoming vis-a-vis the world doesn't make us any more just in the sight of God. Lutherans have always made a distinction between the passive righteousness of the sinner corum Deo (the righteousness freely given as a gift which avails before the face of God), and active righteousness corum mundo (righteousness which we work out in good deeds which hopefully increase from day to day vis-a-vis our neighbors). When Lutherans speak about forensic justification by grace alone through faith alone, we mean that about our status before God; but our status in sanctification, and our relationship to others, is of course grounded in our good works which flow from the infusion of God's graces.

Faith, works, or both?

I made a post like this, and came across many that prefer faith with out works. They stick to Paul like white on rice and won't give James the time of day.

I've thought about both ends of the spectrum, all will be saved because Christ made everyone right. Or, only a hand fill will be saved and I'm not one of them. The work I've thought to be saved is outlined by dialogue and actions. Christ and the disciples left their home, they traveled. Told those to get their heart right, get rid of their possessions to be saved.

But,

What would that question look like at the end of the conversation between the thief and Christ as they hung?

....Exactly.

GratiaCorpusChristi said:

...Catholic dogma, as codified at Trent, however, includes the notion of meritorious rewards for works which increase a person's standing before God. Lets not brush that under the carpet.

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Peace be with you,

Matthew 19 ends with the terms of salvation for the rich guy. Matthew 20 starts with a parable that crushes the prospect of being rewarded for doing good. It's written: "God doesn't show favoritism".
That parable ends with the end saying of the previous chapter.

Trust the voice of the Truth that lives in you, not the voice of a imperial religion.

Peace and grace be to you all.

Yarddog said:

No, we have a different view of grace.

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We do.
Which then leads to a different understanding of the gospel.

I think your mistake is the same as the mistake the Galatians made (no matter how well intended)