A message from Adam to all of humanity as given to Pastor Rick Joyner!

Where do you personally think that Pastor Rick Joyner got this message?

  • I tend to strongly suspect that his message is from God and is probably true!

  • I suspect that Rick Joyner is one of the most intelligent Christian deceivers.

  • I suspect that Rick Joyner may have been involved in LSD tests in the '60's!

  • OK, that is pretty good...I think I will read it one more time!!!!


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Chaplain David

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Of course not. I was just wondering how you view someone as your brother. Why would I make any slurs at you? gosh, I was just trying to understand.

I personally use Yeshua's version found here.



And from Luke 8

Just because someone uses the label, 'christian' does not mean they are a follower of Jesus.

We are to have discernment.


From that for guidance I consider R
ick Joyner and "Todd Bentley to fall in the latter group of 'Many' and if Jesus would not consider them his brothers, neither do I.

But it's still your opinion. If that Bentley was a quack it still doesn't mean he's not a Christian and it's nobody's job to say that he's not except for God's. And I'm not impressed by the use of scripture here. It's used out of convenience, one moment God's word, and the next, stated as not being completely true. Jesus was a lot more compassionate than you make him out to be.

There's some serious religious self righteousness going on in this forum combined with large doses of holier than thouism. Humility was a quality Jesus had that fights all of these spiritual defects. Love was the greatest though. It's in my signature below, especially part 2 ----Love thy neighbor as thyself and that means put love into action. Just a parting thought. think about some of the people Jesus loved, thieves, prostitutes, beggars and others. If one follows Jesus, they will truly learn how to love.
 
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Chaplain David

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Thanks. Pray that they start a forum for
those who have the "Christian" icon...

You need to get out more brother. We have scores of other forums here of many flavors. Cruise around the board a bit. I bet you'll find one or two that you really like.
 
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Lulav

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But it's still your opinion. If that Bentley was a quack it still doesn't mean he's not a Christian and it's nobody's job to say that he's not except for God's.
Then the term Christian is being used very loosely. A demon possessed man, by his own admission, continues on claiming to be imparting the holy spirit by kicking women in the face, and giving people false hope, is not a Christian in my eyes, and yes I do have a right to make an opinion. If it's nobodys job to say who is a Christian and who is not, maybe you should talk to the owner here who by his TOS states who is and who isn't. Also, better yet, perhaps you should make an inquiry of Rome who up until recently didn't recognize any Protestants as Christian.


And I'm not impressed by the use of scripture here. It's used out of convenience, one moment God's word, and the next, stated as not being completely true. Jesus was a lot more compassionate than you make him out to be.
I wasn't trying to impress you or anyone else. What I posted is not in conflict with previous scripture so does not present a problem to me.
The person who obeys my heavenly Father's will is my brother and sister and mother."

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but
he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Just about every word he preaches goes against G-ds word, and I will speak out about it, this is showing love it, not all feel good and flowers.

There's some serious religious self righteousness going on in this forum combined with large doses of holier than thouism. Humility was a quality Jesus had that fights all of these spiritual defects. Love was the greatest though. It's in my signature below, especially part 2 ----Love thy neighbor as thyself and that means put love into action. Just a parting thought. think about some of the people Jesus loved, thieves, prostitutes, beggars and others. If one follows Jesus, they will truly learn how to love.

Yes put love into action, that means telling someone or warning someone when their soul is in danger, if you want to call that holier than thou, be my guest, but name calling won't change my loving.

David, did you watch any of those videos? If you did, can you really say anyone that supports that false prophet behavior and total disregard for people is a Christian?
 
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Gxg (G²)

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was a big fan of his until i was reading "final quest" and ran across the words "its not a sin to take the mark" i stopped reading anything eles he ever wrote
Heard about others who noted there were similar issues of errror within the "Final Quest" book--and in reading it, I have to agree with that there are alot things that others need to consider whenever going counter to what the book says.


In regards to Joyner as well as some of the other teachers discussed in the thread (like Todd Bently), Something to consider...

Jude 1:17-23




20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mer cy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.




As one man said best (John Macarther):
“Many Christians today are weary of the long war over truth. They are uneasy about whether doctrinal disagreements and divisions are a blight on the spiritual unity of the church and therefore a poor testimony to the World.







These and similar questions are constantly heard nowadays:
  • “Isn’t it time to set aiside our differences and just love one another?’
  • “Rather than battling people with whom we disagree over various points of doctrine, why not stage a cordial dialouge with them and listen to their ideas?”
  • “Can’t we have a friendly conversation rather than a bitter clash?”
  • “Shouldn’t we be congenial rather than CONTENTIOUS?”
  • “Does the current generation really need to perpetuate the fight over beliefs and ideologies? Or can we at last declare peace and set aside all the debates over doctrine?”
Of course, there is a legitimate concen in the tone of such question. Scriptures commands us:
Romans 12:18
18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

Hebrews 12:14-15
Warning Against Refusing God 14Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.

Galatians 5:22-23
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Taken together, these pasages make it clear that what Scripture demands of us is the POLAR OPPOSITE of aCANTANKEROUS ATTITUDE.

No one who exhibhits the Fruit of the Spirit can possibly take delight in the conflict….So it should be plain that the call to contend for the faith is NOT A LICENSE FOR PURGNACIOUS SPIRITS TO PROMOTE STRIFE DELIBERATELY over INSIGNIGICANT MATTERS.

Even when conflict proves unavoidable, WE ARE NOT TO ADOPT A MEAN SPIRIT

But conflict is not always avoidable. That is Jude’s whole point in writing his epistle. To remain faithful to the truth, sometimes it is even necessary to wage “Civil War” within the church—especially when the enemies of truth posing as bretheren and believers are smuggling dangerous heresy by stealth.’…….


Verses 3-4 (Jude 1:3-4) constitute one of the most compelling and sobering introductions to any epistle in the New Testament. Think of it: Jude is saying that he sat down to write a positive, encouraging epistle celebrating the joy of salvation, but—-grasping the current urgency and willingly following the Holy Spirit’s sovereign control and inspiration—-he was compelled to write something other than he had intended. His letter thus became a short, strongly worded warning urging them to fight for the faith.
Perhaps before he started writing, he recieved information from somewhere—a report, a letter, or an eyewitness account telling him of a threat to the spiritual well-being of this flock. Or it could be simply that the Lord supernaturally revealed something to him that prompted this change in the message. Whatever the case, the Holy Spirit compelled Jude to take up an issue he had not planned to adress. The glorious salvation about which Jude had planned to write was in danger of being severely compromised unless the church rose to the occasion of fighting for the gospel.


So what evidently started out as a warm, friendly attempt to offer comforyt and encouragement turned out instead to be a shrill CALL TO ARMS. The whole epistle is a war cry that applies to all believers in all ages. Jude urges us to join the Truth War and side with the Lord.

This was necessary even in the days of the apostles…….from the very beginning, the enemies of truth launched an effort to infiltrate and confuse the people of God by mangling the truth and by blending the lies with Christian Doctrine. Attacks against the truth REGULARLY came not only from perscutors outside but also from FALSE teachers and professing believers within the visible community of the church.

Satan’s strategy of placing his ministers within the church to sow bad doctrine was proving dangerously effective even while the NEW TESTAMENT was still being written (II Corinthians 11:14-15)…….false teachers had infiltrated the church. They were at the moment safely ensconeced in the community of believers. They were being accepted by fellow believers, and their poisnouis false teaching was spreading in the church….and Jude urged believers to OPPOSE THEM rather than EMBRACE THEM, FOR THE LIFE OF THE CHURCH DEPENDED ON IT.

Our task is simply to interpret, understand, publish, and defend the truth God has once and for all delivered to the Church. That is what the TRUTH WAR is ultimately all about. It is not mere wrangling between competing earthly ideologies.

It is not simply a campaign to refine someone’s religious creed or win a denominational spitting contest. It is not a battle of wits over arcane theological fine points. It is not an argument for sport. It is not like a school debate, staged to sse who is more skilled or more clever in the art of argumentation.

It is not merely academic in any sense. And it is certainly not a game. It is a very serious struggle to safeguard the heart and soul of the truth itself and to unleash that truth aginst the powers of darkness—in hopes of rescuing the eternal souls of men and women who have been unwittingly ensnared by the trap of devilish deception.


This is a battle we cannot wage effectively if we ALWAYS (i.e. IN EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE WE ENCOUNTER) try to COME across to the world as merely nice, nonchalant, docile, agrreable, and fun-loving people. We must not take our cues from people who are merely happy to compromise the truth whenever possible “FOR HARMONY’S SAKE”….ALONE


Friendly dialouge may sound may sound affable and pleasant. Butt neither Christ nor the Apostles ever confronted SERIOUS, SOUL-DESTROYING ERROR by building collegial relationships with FALSE TEACHERS . In fact, we are expressly forbidden to do that (Romans 16:17, II Corinthians 6:14-15; II Thessalonians 3:6, II Timothy 3:5, II John 1: 10-11.) Scripture is clear about how we are to respond when the very foundations of the Christian faith are UNDER ATTACK, and Jude states siccinctly: It is our bounden duty to contend earnestly for the faith.


However, notice carefully: JUDE IS NOT SUGGESTING (nor am I) that CHRISTIANS SHOULD CONTEND AMONG THEMSELVES over EVERY PETTY DISAGREEMENT or DIVIDE into FACTIONS OVER EVERY PERSONALITY CONFLICT.In fact, that is the very thing the apostle Paul CONDEMNED in I Corinthians 3:3-7. Divisiveness and SECTARIANISM are terrible sins that hurt the church when major divisions are manufactured out of PETTY DIFFERENCES over TRIVIAL, DOUBTFUL, INDIFFERENT, or less-than-vital matters



Paul is in no way suggesting that herectics’ mouths must be stopped by physcial force. He is very clear about how Titus was to silence the “insurbordinate……idle talkers and decievers” (Titus 1:10): Titus needed to confront and refute their lies thoroughly with the clear proclamation of the truth. There is a negative aspect to that:
“Rebuke them SHARPLY, that they may be sound in the faith” (Titus 1:13)
“Rebuke them SHARPLY, that they may be sound in the faith” (Titus 1:13)
. And there is positive duty for this as well:
As for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine” (Titus 2:1)
“As for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine” (Titus 2:1)


And even though it is clear from the context that Paul is not advocating the use of any kind of brute violence, his statement about stopping the mouths of false teachers has both a tone of authority and a settled certainty to it that makes it sould less-than-politically-correct to postmodern ears. This is not a message suited for our age. But then again, SCRIPTURE HAS ALWAYS BEEN CONTRARY TO WORLDLY CULTURE.

As Paul warned Titus, we need to be on guard/o n the lookout for people who ACTIVELY SPREAD/TEACH WRONG DOCTRINES AND LEAD OTHERS INTO ERRORAnd whether those false teachers teach simply out of confusion, speaking misguided opinions without checking them against the Word, or whether they have evil motives and pretend to be Christians only so they can get more money (“dishonest gain”), additional buisness or a feeling of power from being a leader in the church, we’re still again warned to be on the lookout for them since their teachings attack the foundations of truth and integrity upon which the Christian faith is built (Mark 13:22, Acts 20:29, II Thessalonians 2:3-12, II Peter 3:3-7 and given directions in how to deal with such people (Titus 1:10-14)

And to be clear, as said before, one who spreads a false teaching doesn't equate with them automatically being "unsaved" or not a believer who loves the Lord. What is clear, however, is that one can still be saved and yet involved in teachings that can greatly harm others...and thus, there can be no worship of individuals in accepting WHATEVER they say if/when it goes against the scriptures.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Extremely well said Easy G! I read part of your post over four times and all of it twice....that is somewhat out of the ordinary for me!

I have the book the vision open here beside me and there is a paragraph that hits me like a sword so well, and cuts so deep into where I have been at almost all my life...that it may help to explain why I read Rick Joyner so much during this season of my life:

......Rick Joyner from page 139, subtitle The Writer's Remorse:


This paragraph is pretty much the story of my life!!!!!
I agree with Joyner in what he noted when it comes to pointing others to Christ more so than to themselves, as that happens often enough. As it concerns Joyner, what often happens is that even truths spoken by men may not always be applied to them by others following---and with Joyner, although I have read his material, digesting him daily is not something I see one being able to do without coming into conflict with some points in the Word where one has to disagree if/when it goes counter to what Christ advocated. For not everything the man writes or does takes others to Jesus.

One of the major reasons why I was so impressed with Garner Ted Armstrong and his dad Herbert W. is because they gave me material to work with that allowed me to win just about any debate with almost anybody as long as we took a sola scritura approach to the debate!!!!
Alot of their material, to be truthful, has often been addressed as not really lining up with the Word at all points--and even with Sola Scriptura, "winning" is not the purpose of discussion, as anyone can do that when simply reading a scripture but not having the full context of it. I'm aware of how Armstrong taught the observance of principles that he believed could be inferred from biblical intent--although truthfully, that does not always play out nor can it ever do so without issue since all people do that when it comes to simply reading text without understanding the Jewish/Hebraic culture, historical background and the ways things were interpreted.


Alot of what Hebert W noted was addressed later by members of the church...one of the most notable being how the use of medicine and doctors was discouraged because members were expected to place their faith in God for healing...and another being on long hair not being allowed for men, nor piercings.


Herbert Amstrong said many good things in line with scripture and yet was one who was often checked publically repeatedly for making claims he said were based on the Bible and yet many of them were far from what scripture even noted. ..with these theological doctrines and teachings referred to as Armstrongism....especially as it concerns his teachings of biblical prophecy in light of British Israelism ( discussed here). For that is a racist ideology toward Jewish believers in Christ, often confused for being Messianic) or other things. And to be clear, concerning how Armstrong taught a form of British Israelism, British Israelism is the belief that those of Western European descent, notably England (Ephraim) and the United States (Manasseh), are direct descendants of the ancient northern Kingdom of Israel. This theory is inconsistent with the findings of modern research on the genetic history of Jews..and has been discussed often, even though others holding to it may be in support of other things done by Messianics (i.e. Dietary Codes, Kosher, Celebrating Sabbath, etc). Grace Communion International, the lineal successor to Armstrong's original church, no longer teaches the doctrine, but many offshoot churches continue to teach it even though critics assert that British Israelism is inconsistent with the findings of modern genetics.

More on this has been shared on the boards before---as seen here and here and here. ..as well as explained by other solid MEssianic Ministries discussing the variations within what's known as "Two-House" and how it can easily be corrupted if not knowing the difference between Gentiles being apart of the Messianic Movement and British Israelism. For more, one can consider J.K McKee of TNN Online..as seen here:

The fact that Armstrong was not for Birracial marriages and Interracial marriage was also discouraged as Armstrong emphasized requirements for Ancient Israelites (who, according to British Israelism, became Western Europeans) to remain racially and religiously separate from other nations....that is something that should be enough of a warning for one to be cautious when considering what the man has to say.


For more on that:


And for more on others who were impacted negatively by Armstrong:




  • Herbert W. Armstrong inappropriate contentographer » The Painful Truth Blog
  • The Painful Truth: A collection of Facts, Opinions and Comments from survivors of Herbert W. Armstrong, Garner Ted Armstrong, The Worldwide Church of God and its Daughters". Herbert W. Armstrong, Garner Ted Armstrong, Worldwide Church of God.
  • Exit and Support Network: Aiding those spiritually abused by Worldwide Church of God, Philadelphia Church of God and all affiliated high demand offshoots". Exit and Support Network
. I'm still bothered by the sexual advances Garner Ted Armstrong made on a woman during a massage before he was asked to step down..




Not saying that neither of them were "Christians"--but on the same token, there are simply way too many things for one to be casual in accepting (or being enthusiastic) on everything they note...


My motivation to be here at this discussion forum is partly good....but also partly an ego trip just like that writer whose books had been a major source of encouragement for Rick Joyner himself!
If ego is involved, it's generally not a good thing to continue in it until it is not apart of the focus. For that's when it's no longer about what the Lord desires of us in the Word--but on what we personally think...
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Henaynei

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sacerdote said:
But it's still your opinion. If that Bentley was a quack it still doesn't mean he's not a Christian and it's nobody's job to say that he's not except for God's. And I'm not impressed by the use of scripture here. It's used out of convenience, one moment God's word, and the next, stated as not being completely true. Jesus was a lot more compassionate than you make him out to be.

There's some serious religious self righteousness going on in this forum combined with large doses of holier than thouism. Humility was a quality Jesus had that fights all of these spiritual defects. Love was the greatest though. It's in my signature below, especially part 2 ----Love thy neighbor as thyself and that means put love into action. Just a parting thought. think about some of the people Jesus loved, thieves, prostitutes, beggars and others. If one follows Jesus, they will truly learn how to love.

Yeshua said "by their fruit you will know them." If their fruit is contrary to Scripture then it is:
1) not our opinion but G-d's
2) we would be disobedient to call one who's fruit is anti-Scriptural mishpokha (family)
3) Scripture warns us to flee from those who make their own gospel or join the Gospel of Truth with that which is pagan or unscriptural
4) the time is coming, and may now be, when "many will come in [His] Name" but are not of G-d
5) we must use Both charity AND wise discernment to keep the vision of ourselves and our fellow travelers on the straight and narrow path of Truth and Righteousness. Our very eternal spiritual survival and that of those around us who are as yet unsaved is at stake.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}
 
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DennisTate

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First, why would Adam come to him?

Adam is dead, we are told not to seek to talk to the spirits.


.....


Hi Lulav: I thought about this question quite a bit yesterday and it hit me that a simple two page message from Adam to somebody in our time period would play a significant role in .....

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Malachi 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

There is also a fascinating account of Rabbi Jesus/Yahushua standing to his feet in 1995 that would certainly help to explain much of what has been happening on earth since that time.....

The Hordes of Hell are Marching


The Lord then stood up. Then all of those who were seated upon the thrones for as far as I could see also stood up. His eyes burned with a fire I had not seen before.

"You have called upon Me for grace. This request I never deny. You shall return, and the Holy Spirit shall be with you. Here you have tasted of both My kindness and My severity. You must remember both if you are to stay on the path of life. The true love of God includes the judgment of God. You must know both my kindness and severity or you will fall to deception. This is the grace that you have been given here, to know both. The conversations you had with your brethren here were My grace. Remember them."

He then pointed His sword toward my heart, then my mouth, then my hands.

When He did this fire came from His sword and burned me with a great pain. "This too is grace," He said. "You are but one of many who have been prepared for this hour. Preach and write about all that you have seen here. What I have said to you say to My brethren. Go and call My captains to the last battle. Go and defend the poor and the oppressed, the widows and the orphans. This is the commission of My captains, and it is where you will find them. My children are worth more to Me than the stars in the heavens. Feed My lambs. Watch over My little ones. Give the word of God to them that they may live. Go to the battle. Go and do not retreat. Go quickly for I will come quickly. Obey Me and hasten the day of My coming."

A company of angels then came and escorted me away from the throne. The leader walked beside me and began to speak.

"Now that He has stood He will not sit again until the last battle is over. He has been seated until the time when His enemies are to be put under His feet. The time has now come. The legions of angels that have been standing ready since the night of passion have now been released upon the earth. The hordes of hell have also been released. This is the time that all of creation has been waiting for. The great mystery of God will soon be finished. We will now fight until the end. We will fight with you and your brethren."

I awoke.


Rabbi Jesus was probably born somewhere between 6 BCE to 4 BCE so 1995 would be 2000 years, two metaphorical days since his birth as a human in Bethlehem.
 
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Avodat

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But it's still your opinion. If that Bentley was a quack it still doesn't mean he's not a Christian and it's nobody's job to say that he's not except for God's. And I'm not impressed by the use of scripture here. It's used out of convenience, one moment God's word, and the next, stated as not being completely true. Jesus was a lot more compassionate than you make him out to be.

There's some serious religious self righteousness going on in this forum combined with large doses of holier than thouism. Humility was a quality Jesus had that fights all of these spiritual defects. Love was the greatest though. It's in my signature below, especially part 2 ----Love thy neighbor as thyself and that means put love into action. Just a parting thought. think about some of the people Jesus loved, thieves, prostitutes, beggars and others. If one follows Jesus, they will truly learn how to love.


Matthew 7 and 18 must be a bit of an embarrassment to you, then? Not to mention various other places where he insults people, calls them names and where he says it would better if some had a weight tied round their necks and were thrown into a river, plus a few more things, like walking away from people who wanted to be healed. Wonder how he would survive on here with some of his actions and the claims he made at times?
 
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DennisTate

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Originally Posted by DennisTate
I personally strongly suspect that God of Abraham/The Creator is also the first intelligent life form composed of truly fundamental energy.


I am wide open to the possibility that the Creator has planned and choreographed a nearly infinite number of Big Bang events over essentially infinite time in the past...actually time itself was invented at the same time as space....time and space actually depend on each other for their existence.


A being composed of truly fundamental energy would be dependent on neither time or space for existence!

Easy G (G²);60234873 said:
......
[/INDENT][/INDENT]Would you mind explaining what you meant? FOr it seems like you're advocating that the Lord is a created being---and I wasn't certain if that is what you were about.


Good question Easy G....After teaching English in Quito, Ecuador for over a year I returned home to Canada determined to be more socially and politically active. I ran for public office as an independent three times and joined one of Canada's Political Parties in 2009.

Here in Canada the provincial level of government has jurisdiction over education and i believe that it is possible to write up a number of variations on Theistic Evolutionary Theory that actually could end up being taught in schools within a few years or decades.

I personally could not write such a text book but this blog could be used to get some people together who could handle such a project.

Dogmatic Atheists Lack Mathematical Aptitude.
Dogmatic Atheists Lack Mathematical Aptitude.

In a sense I am taking this verse in Genesis much further than it usually is taken:

Gen 1:27
So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

How does human life start?

Well, as a spermatozoa that could perhaps be compared with a Super String and with a ova that could perhaps be compared with Super Energetic Matter or Super Wave?!

I really should start a separate thread with this topic because in a Catholic discussion board a high percentage of those polled thought that the idea that perhaps our Creator has in a sense evolved or learned or gotten better and better and better at creating sounded rather blasphemous!?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7648510/#post60246893
Theistic Evolutionary Theory, could our Creator have evolved/learned?
 
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Henaynei

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DennisTate said:
I really should start a separate thread with this topic because in a Catholic discussion board a high percentage of those polled thought that the idea that perhaps our Creator has in a sense evolved or learned or gotten better and better and better at creating sounded rather blasphemous!?

It IS blasphemous.

It also sounds like you've been going around hunting an audience for your unscriptural and blasphemous ideas.

Why have you come to our Forum? You are not here to learn about MJism (the only legitimate reason for you being here), rather you are teaching paganism and blasphemy.

To the Forum: "DANGER Will Robin!!"

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}
 
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DennisTate

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It IS blasphemous.

It also sounds like you've been going around hunting an audience for your unscriptural and blasphemous ideas.

Why have you come to our Forum? You are not here to learn about MJism (the only legitimate reason for you being here), rather you are teaching paganism and blasphemy.

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i appreciate your zeal Henaynei. You could be right but I do feel that it is time for God's people to get more and more involved in political parties. This is the best that I personally can do with this idea at this time.

We need some variation on Intelligent Design or Theistic Evolutionary Theory that could give our young people an alternative to the extreme skepticism or outright atheism that they are taught at this time.

I personally believe that Adam and Eve were created from the dust of the ground as a separate species made in the image of the Creator but I am open to the idea that our Creator conducted an infinite number of Big Bang events over essentially infinite time in the past that could in a sense be termed at least somewhat experimental.

I believe that that the fall of Lucifer in a sense could be compared with an experiment going wrong in that once created beings are given genuine freedom of choice they of course can go off in entirely the wrong direction.

I believe that Gods' people are facing difficult choices that fit with the report brought to them by Joshua and Caleb that they are capable of going in and taking the land vs the idea that we are too weak and unlearned and lack the finances to do so.
 
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Good question Easy G....After teaching English in Quito, Ecuador for over a year I returned home to Canada determined to be more socially and politically active. I ran for public office as an independent three times and joined one of Canada's Political Parties in 2009.

Here in Canada the provincial level of government has jurisdiction over education and i believe that it is possible to write up a number of variations on Theistic Evolutionary Theory that actually could end up being taught in schools within a few years or decades.

I personally could not write such a text book but this blog could be used to get some people together who could handle such a project.

Dogmatic Atheists Lack Mathematical Aptitude.
Dogmatic Atheists Lack Mathematical Aptitude.
Got ya. Thanks for the backdrop..
In a sense I am taking this verse in Genesis much further than it usually is taken:

Gen 1:27
Pause, as the first dynamic in scripture is NEVER going beyond where the context of scripture was intended to go or saying something the intended audience of Scripture never was accepting of. For within Jewish culture, it has always been the thought that God is not a created being who evolved to become like he was. Within sci-fi/humanism, that thought is readily accepted--like Q from the Q continum in "Startrek the Next Generation" or the Wormhole Aliens/"Prophets" from "Startrek: Deep Space Nine"..but never within Judaism (or Christianity).

How does human life start?

Well, as a spermatozoa that could perhaps be compared with a Super String and with a ova that could perhaps be compared with Super Energetic Matter or Super Wave?!
Dude, none of what you noted has ever been verified or proven scientifically---and many times, it's outright rejected in the world of science. Pseudo-Science is often what it is called..
I really should start a separate thread with this topic because in a Catholic discussion board a high percentage of those polled thought that the idea that perhaps our Creator has in a sense evolved or learned or gotten better and better and better at creating sounded rather blasphemous!?
Sincerly, I'm not surprised. The reason they did so was because it was.....and always will be blasphemous, to say that God started out like out us, ignorant...and has since grown.


To be clear, what is noted is not the same as saying it's impossible for the Lord to learn/interact with His creation. ..or that the Lord may not choose in His Sovereignty to limit aspects of what He can know. For that is what branches within Christianity advocate such as Open Theism--be it Greg Boyd ( more discussed here in Greg’s Letter.doc ) or John Sanders and many others. Some of this I've discussed before on the forums in debate....and there's nothing wrong with it when it comes to wrestling with how the character of the Lord is described, such as Genesis 6 when the Lord said "I am grieved I have made man" prior to the Flood or texts such as "And the Lord changed His mind." when Moses interceded for the Israelities so that the Lord would not destroy them (Exodus 32, Numbers 13-14, etc)...and many others. This goes in line with the thought that there are certain aspects of creation which the Lord has left open to possibilities rather than all things being set in stone....and all hold to that concept on one level or another.

As Greg Boyd noted:


Here’s something to ponder: Whatever a person may theoretically believe, they act like the future is partly open. It’s not their fault. For, as a matter of fact, there’s no other way to act.

Think about it. Every time we deliberate between options on the way toward making a decision, we assume (and we have to assume) that a) the future consists of possibilities and b) that it is up to us to resolve these possibilities into one actuality (that is, our concrete decision). It’s utterly impossible to deliberate in a way that manifests a different set of beliefs.

Go ahead and try it. Right now, think about a matter you need to resolve. Consider your possibilities and weigh your options. Now, try to do this without presupposing that these possibilities are genuinely real and genuinely up to you to resolve. You may consciously believe that the fact of what you’re going to decide has been “out there” for an eternity in the mind of God, but you can’t act on this belief as you deliberate. In fact, you act against this belief in your very act of deliberation.

What makes this interesting is that it’s something of a truism that we reflect our true convictions more by how we act than by what we say or even think (for our conscious minds are frequently deceived). If I truly believe my car is rigged to explode when I started it, for example, and if I truly believe life is worth living, then I will not get into my car and start it. If I profess these two beliefs and yet get into my car and start it up, you’ll know that I’m either insincere or self-deceived in professing one or both of these beliefs. Again, the truth of a conviction is rooted in how we act, not in what we say or think.

If this is so, does it not follow that everybody – including those who adamantly deny it – really believes the future is partly open? Just watch them deliberate. It’s obvious.

So, go ahead and deliberate about what you should believe about the nature of the future. Is it open or exhaustively settled? Weigh all the philosophical options carefully. But realize that in the very act of deliberating about what you should believe, you’re already manifesting what you already believe.

That said..




Saying that God was like us in the beginning...truthfully, it comes off akin to what is said in Mormonism when they claim that God was a man once like us and was created--later evolving into what He is and given us the same opportunity.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7648510/#post60246893
Theistic Evolutionary Theory, could our Creator have evolved/learned?
Theistic Evolutionary Theory isn't something others should have an issue with, IMHO, if describing the means that the Lord created the world --and that is something that many, in the debates of the origins of life, have brought up when it comes to differing views...be it Young Earth Creationism, Old Earth Creationism or Gap Theory and a host of other things that are often discussed whenever it comes to addressing the issue of Secular evolutionary theory that says the world simply came out of nowhere. The same goes for the concept of how the Lord, as a creator, loves to Create and has done so with many differing things/in differing ways---some of this discussed on the MJish boards before here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here.


However, within that, being a disciple of Christ requires that one not believe that the Lord HIMSELF evolved over time. For that is a central concept within Christianity and Judaism---that the Lord was not a being made of energy that grew into What he was and has His own evolution going on...but rather, that He was UNCREATED, without BEGINNING or END

Isaiah 46:10
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

Revelation 21:6
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.
Revelation 21:5-7

Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Revelation 22:12-14
If others in the unbelieving world don't wish to believe in God unless they can see Him as another creation like themselves, it doesn't mean that believers must find ways to find/make up theories that would appease them...and even others who may be Theistic Evolutionists themselves have noted that often when it comes to pandering to whatever people in the world want without realizing that they do not get to set the terms of engagement.
 
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It IS blasphemous.
Agreed, as it concerns certain aspects...and dangerous to mess with. Talking with other young adults (as I'm a Youth Worker), the thought that God evolved with the universe (i.e. many Big Bangs until it turned out right, God growing in energy, etc) were ideas that've come up before and yet they were never something that attracted them to Christ


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If not being aware of it, that's one thing. But continuing in it would be another, as it's not apart of the SOP or what CF was about in the larger sense.
 
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Easy G (G²);60247048 said:
....

Dude, none of what you noted has ever been verified or proven scientifically---and many times, it's outright rejected in the world of science. Pseudo-Science is often what it is called..
The reason they did so was because it was.....and always will be blasphemous, to say that God started out like out and has since grown.


To be clear, what is noted is not the same as saying it's impossible for the Lord to learn/interact with His creation. ........



I do believe firmly that God always existed...but I question if something similar to time going by occurred before God knew exactly how to make a squirrel???

They are amazing little creatures that in a sense could be compared to prophets because when a hunter goes into the woods looking for a deer, the squirrels warn every animal for many kilometres that danger is approaching. Frankly, I have good reason to believe that many squirrels have actually been shot for doing exactly that...the comparison is obvious!

Time at all as we know it would not exist previous to the creation of space and from what I have read regarding fundamental energy it would ALWAYS have existed!



.....In spite of
these bizarre overtones, it seems probable that in future a "theory of everything" will make use of the idea of unseen higher dimensions."
....

"Although nature manifests four distinct forces, physicists believe that
each may be part of a smaller number of more primitive forces. At high energy, the electromagnetic and weak forces appear to merge into a single "electroweak" force. Some "grand unified theories" suggest that a further amalgamation takes place between the electroweak and strong forces at as yet unattained energies. The most ambitious unification schemes envisage an amalgamation of all four forces into a single "superforce" at ultra-high levels of energy.
...


">"The real burden in the next three centuries will not be the development of fancy mathematics, but the experimental testing of these ambitious theories. All current thinking about total unification assumes that the effects of linking all the forces and particles together will only become manifest at energies that are some trillion times greater than those currently attainable in particle accelerators. Probably we shall never reach such energies directly" ( A Theory of Everything" Volume 21 of "The World of Science)
 
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Theistic Evolutionary Theory, could our Creator have evolved/learned?
Again, there's a difference between what historical Christianity (as well as Judaism) has noted when saying that the Lord has left certain things open-ended/interacts with His creation and saying that the Lord was like us once in that even He evolved and was created.....as that latter thought is what Mormonism teaches.

And for the sake of clarity, as said before in another discussion:

There is a difference with what God desired and what He knew what would happen.


Sometimes I'm amazed when something happens even though I know it would. Messiah Yeshua may have temporarily voluntarily given up His foreknowledge to what would happen when He was on earth.

Easy G (G²);57484012 said:
Indeed, though the real issue is showing that God knows all things that WOULD happen even when/if he desires something.....and whether or not its impossible for the Lord to experience both.


That's amazing to consider as well...


For some good articles on the issue, one can go to his site and look up the following articles:

The issue that may wrestle with is whether or not its possible that the Lord ordained for Himself to go through pain...willing his own displeasure/being willing to endure it for the sake of illustrating to others who He is.



It really does make for interesting discussion...though it also does serve to make one ponder how things all began to come together.

"Did God Plan The Fall of Man?" or "Was the Fall Necessary for Man to See God truly as He was?....and on that, I have issue. For one must wonder that even in Paradise, man was with perfect communion with the Lord and yet to a degree, He may've been unable to see the Lord as He was fully when it comes to love since the ultimate expression of love is seen in being able to give up one's life for another, John 15:12-14/John 15, 1 John 3:15-17 / 1 John 3.

Again, that's a very complex issue---especially seeing that on the flip side, God made clear in many places that He did not desire sin/suffering to occur originally, hence, why man was given a choice IN THE garden/warning from the Lord (which was genuine and that man was not bound to do so/could've chosen differently) and is continually given one daily to make since one doesn't HAVE to sin in order to understand grace. With the garden, one must also wonder in light of the "Middle Knowledge" perspective if it was planned by the Lord to give Adam free-will and yet somehow setting up circumstances whereby Adams choice would naturally go toward rebellion---as in what occured when the Accuser was kicked out of Heaven and allowed to come to the Earth to tempt Adam through His wife.

To a degree, it does seem like a Divine Soap Opera and much of Human History going according to a script. And as Christ was prepared before the foundation of the World to die, one can either see things playing out in the sense of the "Christus Victor" view where God literally had to rescue us from the Dominion of Darknes or in the sense of the Lord really playing us like on a Divine Chess Board or puppets in a "play"...

To a significant degree, I'm reminded of “The Matrix” Trilogy..paticularly, the second one known as "The Matrix Reloaded" ()where Neo discovers that the entire issue of "The One" prophecy and his choosing to leave the Matrix to wage war on the Machines was in no way really true freedom--as it was all set up as a system of control, with the Oracle playing off of intuition/knowledge of free-will choices and influences others toward certain action.


Architect.gif


the_architect.jpg


matrixreloaded61.jpg



But from a Christian perspective, as God (whether directly or indirectly) causes no man to sin (James 1) andGod is not the author of our sin, man is the first cause of his own actions.

One cannot deny that Adam’s choice to sin was within the sovereign plan of God---where it was allowed and the Lord was more than prepared for it, even though the effects of it grieved Him significantly, as seen in Gen 6:6 where the Lord was greatly saddened at the turn-out of man. But I will not agree when others say that Adam sinned because God ordained him to sin...as in essence, that's akin to saying that if a man rapes a child/sins just like Adam, man is not the FIRST cause of his actions or choices. IMHO, God is the First cause of ALL, and God created man (in His own image a moral agent), consequently meaning that man is the first cause of his own actions and choices. But it is still something I'm wrestling with/over...

Something that one of my brothers in Christ said on the issue when it came to addressing the issues of Arminism and Calvinism in regards to how could God both plan an event and yet allow free will to men or change His mind if He does know all things:
There are two perspectives involved, that of God's eternal plan which is unfailingly carried out, and that of temporal events. Thus, God's relation to any event (or moment) is two-fold. For example, God hates all sin. One aspect of God's relation to any sin is that it is against His will and incurs His wrath. But the other aspect of God's relation to that sin is that it is part of God's eternal plan, having been incorporated at the beginning for God's ultimate glory. Sinful acts were necessary in the crucifixion of Christ, and yet it was accomplished by God as part of His plan. So I would say that God does change His mind within time, but always in accordance with the eternal plan that He formed before time began.


All of that I thought was highly intriguing. On the issue he brought up with changing His mind in accordance with what's akin to His "Master Blueprint" which was already laid out, I couldn't help but be reminded of the passage itself in Numbers where the Lord made clear He would do otherwise if his people acted one way and then chose to do opposite when they went against Him did not seem to be dealt with. It'd seem to be avoiding the text if saying "God chose to respond to the Israelites exactly as He always planned" when it seems clear from other texts that He also made clear certain outcomes could be avoided/that He would do differently.


It's the entire issue of having infinite knowledge of multiple possibilities/knowing how you'll respond in each and every scenario rather than saying that one will respond only a certain way. God changed His mind, knowing full well how he would react to certain actions, acting consistent with His nature...just like with Moses in Exodus 32/Exodus 32:1 when He intercedded with the Lord. God relented, yet it did not mean that God changed His mnd in the sense that a parent decides not to discipline a child. Instead, He changed His behavior to remain consistent with His nature.

Whe God first wanted to destroy the people, He was acting in accordance with His justice. But when Moses interceded for the people, God relented in order to act consistently with His Mercy. God had often told the people that if they changed their ways, he would not condemn them. And many times, they changed, thus activating the other possibility of what He had planned beforehand on how He'd choose to respond based on what He had laid down before time. That's part of the issue of promises, blessings and curses.

As it seems, what the issue also comes down to is whether or not all things in the future are PRE-Determined by the Lord or whether or not there're other things open for possibility...and that'll always be at the "crux of the matter" whenever discussing Open Theism and its implications.

.
On the issue of "temporal perspective", I came across an article that sought to refine many of the points people may bring up in Open Theism...and one of them dealt with the concept of the Lord "learning" in regards to scripture where God said "Now I know.." after testing someone, much as it was with Hezekiah when He tested Him to know all that was in His Heart in 2 Chronicles 32:30-32 /2 Chronicles 32or other passages where it makes clear the Lord was waiting to see what His people would do.

As an excerpt from one article said (on Greg Boyd's stance) dealing with the example of the Testing of Abraham in Hebrews 11:16-18 /Hebrews 11:
The Testing of Abraham's Fear of God
Genesis 22:9-12
Then they came to the place of which God had told him; and Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood, and bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." 12 He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."

Observations:

1. Boyd says that God did not know if Abraham would remain faithful and that the words "now I know" are disingenuous if this were not so. The test would be a charade if God already knew the outcome.

2. There is another way to think about God's knowing here. If God knows what will come to pass, does that mean that all testings in history are pointless? we don't think so. God has not created the world simply so that it might have been foreknown. He created the world to be actualized in history. That is, he wills not just to foreknow, but also to know by observation and experience. That is the point of creating a real world, rather than just knowing one that might be. Therefore, may not God truly know what Abraham is going to do, and yet also want to externalize that reality in a test that enables him to know it by observation, not just prognostication? "Now I know," thus may mean, "Now I see . . . now I experience by observation of your real action."

Seeing that really made me reconsider many things----as it made perfect sense, especially when the reality is that one's dealing with a God BEYOND our comprehension who is more than able to do that which may seem like paradoxes to us, in that it is more than possible for God to live in the realm of eternity/knowing all things and yet simultaneously choose to experience "temporal" time and limited knowledge as we do in differing situations. Trying to make sense of that would be no more logical than trying to say "How can God be everywhere and yet in a single place all at once?"


Personally, I have no problem believing God works with the leaders of the world to bring about certain things. He can use those people to bring judgments on others...and has shown repeatedly in the Word where that's the case. But where I have a problem is the idea that God actively controls every single detail in every single person, every single day

There is a specific view that seemed to make the most sense to me (to a degree) with reconcilling issues. The view advocates that God foreknows not only what will come to pass but also what would have come to pass under any and all circumstances in any and all possible worlds....and in regards to the view, it seems logical that can embrace both God's sovereignty and man's free choice. Though even with the view, there're variations. In example, Gregory Boyd discussed it best when describing something on his site under the article title of Neo-Molinism and the Infinite Intelligence of God ( )--in which the argument came up describing how "classical Molinism overlooked a whole left category of truths that an omniscient God would know: namely, the category of truths about what free agents might and might not do"



 
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I do believe firmly that God always existed...but I question if something similar to time going by occurred before God knew exactly how to make a squirrel???

They are amazing little creatures that in a sense could be compared to prophets because when a hunter goes into the woods looking for a deer, the squirrels warn every animal for many kilometres that danger is approaching. Frankly, I have good reason to believe that many squirrels have actually been shot for doing exactly that...the comparison is obvious!

Squirrelly prophets. I like that.^_^
 
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Easy G (G²);60247048 said:
Got ya. Thanks for the backdrop..

Pause, as the first dynamic in scripture is NEVER going beyond where the context of scripture was intended to go or saying something the intended audience of Scripture never was accepting of. For within Jewish culture, it has always been the thought that God is not a created being who evolved to become like he was. Within sci-fi/humanism, that thought is readily accepted--like[URL="http://en.memory-......


I am of the belief that our generation, although physically and mentally weaker by far than the generation of the first century church is set up to understand a level of meaning in scripture that could not have been comprehended previous to the information explosion of our era.


Jeremiah 23:20
The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
 
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