Is Homosexuality a Choice?

Psych · Apr 8, 2012

Here goes, attempt no. 2 after this got shut down for being in the wrong place.

Once again, this is not a state-your-opinion-and-begone thread, but an actual attempt at a discussion, so please back up your argument with some kind of logic.

Schroeder · Apr 8, 2012

I think it is a choice. scripture says its a sin (rom 1). i think one is born prone towards certain tendencies. One can be born shy and feminine. Over time this person may be bullied or mistreated etc or being told over and over he is girlish and therefor society says they are gay. Its a long process of becoming gay with choices you make in listening to those around you and taking them to mean something that will effect your life in the future. just like kids that are told they are mean all the time or stupid or whatever eventually they will act that way just for the fact that they are always told that that is who they are. Its very complicated process but easier now then ever becasue of the acceptance of being gay even though they keep yelling they are not.

His_disciple3 · Apr 8, 2012

it is a choice, you choose who you lay down with, just as in fornication. point being has anyone ever turned from being a homosexual and either quit having any sex or started having sex with the opposite sex? yes, so there, it is a choice!!! and a bad choice at that!

Romans 1:26-28
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
KJV

Cotjones · Apr 8, 2012

It is a choice, but it's not that simple.

Does an alcoholic have a choice to stop drinking?
Does a drug addict have a choice to stop using?

As someone not addicted to drinking it seems as simple as just not picking up a drink. In reality the brain is far more complicated in these situations.

If a person can no longer perceive that they have a choice do they really have a choice?
That's what's happening here.

Of course, saying that it is intrinsically totally choice is also wrong.
There are is a plethora of genetic disorders such as adrenal hyperplasia, and Klinefelter's syndrome which cause "ambiguous development."

It's estimated that in around 1 in 1500 births a sex specialist is needed to differentiate.
In these scenarios how can you say that a person surgically altered to be a boy wasn't supposed to be a girl. The only real difference is in hormones. Granted like you said, ultimately you must make a decision to sleep with the same sex. But you can be STRONGLY genetically predisposed to any action or lifestyle.

Genetics have a lot to do with predispositions even if they don't completely rule them. We have to remember that Humans in many cases aren't really exposed to natural selection and thus negative genetic factors are free to run wild and remain in the population.

Personally, I don't believe that it's ALWAYS wrong because of the complications I've noticed. That said, I do believe that there are many that use these arguments, that don't actually share the excuses. I believe that there are many who view homosexuality as more of a pop culture thing even if only subconsciously.

Christownsme · Apr 8, 2012

It's a choice to get involved in the first place, just like Hisdisciple_3 said, and his reasonings, but after that the person may want to get out of the situation. And it's now a cross of suffering to find victory over the temptation. Believe me, although I haven't ever been homosexual, I've gotten involved in different situations where when you start, you're making a clear choice. But once you're hooked, and the Holy Spirit convicts you, you bear a cross of suffering to discipline your body, as Paul said, in order not to do those things again. Sometimes it's one step forward and 2 backward, but we always get back up because Jesus is our victory.

food4thought · Apr 8, 2012

Sexuality is such a powerful and complex thing... do I believe homosexuality is a choice? I guess that depends on how you define homosexuality.

If one is to define homosexuality as the act of sexual relations between members of the same sex, then yes it is without question a choice.

If one is to define homosexuality as the condition of having feelings of sexual desire for the same sex, then I don't really believe that it is a choice these people make any more than you or I have a choice of whether we have feelings of sexual desire for a person of the opposite sex... BUT there is a choice of whether one feeds that desire, welcomes that desire, acts on that desire. There is a clear choice of whether one chooses to embrace that desire as central to their sexual lives, just the same as we all have a clear choice of whether to embrace promiscuity as central to our sexual lives. How does one identify him/herself? To what extent does our sexual drive control us, and to what extent do we control it? As Christians, we identify ourselves in Christ, we are called to deny ourselves and follow Jesus through the power and guidance of the Holy Spirit... and that same Holy Spirit inspired the writers of the Bible, both Old and New Testament, to name homosexuality as sin. To deny homosexuality is sin is to deny the testimony of the Holy Spirit; and at the very least those who deny it is a sin are quenching the Holy Spirit in their lives, at worst they are not saved.

straydog · Apr 8, 2012

Psych said:
Here goes, attempt no. 2 after this got shut down for being in the wrong place.

Once again, this is not a state-your-opinion-and-begone thread, but an actual attempt at a discussion, so please back up your argument with some kind of logic.

Leviticus 18:22:Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13:If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Deuteronomy 23:17:There shall be no harlot of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.

1 Kings 14:24:And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.

1 Kings 15:12:And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.

1 Kings 22:46:And the remnant of the sodomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he took out of the land.

2 Kings 23:7:And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove.

1 Corinthians 6:9:Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Here is a 50's anti-homosexual video(youtube)

Boys Beware! Homosexuals are on the prowl! - YouTube

Cotjones · Apr 9, 2012

Again we are forgetting that for many of these people its not a matter of, "I was straight my entire life and then temptation came along."

Think about babies born with crack cocaine addictions because of their mothers. Would you go preach to them? They would look at you laughing while they sucked on their fingers. It's another matter where wisdom is crucial. I have a homosexual friend who has medically dangerous low levels of testosterone just naturally. Is anyone surprised that he turned out homosexual? To speak to him he will tell you that he doesn't feel like a gay man, he feels like a straight woman, but his reflection in the mirror doesn't make sense to him. Can any of you honestly say you understand the reasoning behind his life and actions?

Medically, he is only a man because of his genitals. His hormonal levels and arguably thoughts and emotions are more feminine than most women.

I am yet again distressed by the level of dogmatism and lack of wisdom I witness from the majority of the christian community.

It as if those in the churches today are all playing make believe with this construct of reality that doesn't exist anymore. However, the one sure way to make something exist is in your imagination. You people think that all Homosexuals have had a life just like yours and randomly one day just decided to live in sin. How would you feel toward God if you were a young adult that honestly wasn't sure whether you were male or female encountering the spewing of hate and ignorance that is common place for the church.

The "good" Christian will always "SAY" hate the sin, love the sinner. But that is a message completely eclipsed by the actions and expressed opinions of the Church.

holyrokker · Apr 9, 2012

Not a choice. It's the result of a series of choices stemming back to early childhood.

Cotjones · Apr 9, 2012

straydog said:
Leviticus 18:22:Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13:If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Deuteronomy 23:17:There shall be no harlot of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.

1 Kings 14:24:And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.

1 Kings 15:12:And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.

1 Kings 22:46:And the remnant of the sodomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he took out of the land.

2 Kings 23:7:And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove.

1 Corinthians 6:9:Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Deuteronomy also says:
If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.

Leviticus also says:
Such slaves you have, male or female, should come from the nations around you. From them you may buy slaves.

1 kings also says:
Solomon had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines. IT also clearly doesn't denounce the practice of polygamy but instead it denounces that Solomon had wives which led him astray.

1 corinthians also says:
"Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says." (1 Corinthians 14:34)

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 NASB
If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity.

I find it amusing that you choose to ignore and follow verses based on your interests.

Cotjones · Apr 9, 2012

holyrokker said:
Not a choice. It's the result of a series of choices stemming back to early childhood.

Even this is a better view.
By I still believe we must account for genetics.

Does someone with tourettes go to hell for cursing the Lord's name?

peggy sue · Apr 9, 2012

Psych said:
Here goes, attempt no. 2 after this got shut down for being in the wrong place.

Once again, this is not a state-your-opinion-and-begone thread, but an actual attempt at a discussion, so please back up your argument with some kind of logic.

well considering nothing of the Spirit of God fits in human logic, i imagine you will follow a more human logic than a Godly one, things unseen are more real than what is visable
2 Corinthians 4:18
18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

homosexuality is a result of an ungratful, unthankful, person who in these days worships themselves rather than what was seen in Pauls day, where they worshiped carved images, although we still see some religions still bowing before statues and praying before them, and homosexuality and pedophilia is very evident among their ranks.

the apostle Paul says that God gives you over to a debased mind that seeks to do those things which are not fitting. if you have possibly found yourself in the place where God has given you over to vile passions, realize that you can be changed, but its going to require that you repent

much like all of satans addictions its not easy getting free, much like drug addiction, or inappropriate content, the memories of these things linger on for some time, i believe homosexuality is one of satans most difficult deceptions to get free from.because it runs so deep in the person mind, they have allowed the themselves to be given over to a debased mind

rejecting the lie is crucial, much like anyone fighting the craving for inappropriate content, they know while it draws them to look they will not be satisfied and recieve fulfilment like it promises, they will be left feeling weak and dirty, and separated from God for giving into debased thinking, that is why its pictures along with its tantilizing thoughts must be rebuked as lies.

the whole battle is in the mind, if you can harness what you allow yourself to think about, your body will obey what your mind has already decided, this takes some time, especially if someone has allowed themselves to deeply fantisize about all sorts of perverted things. if you happen to be someone caught in this delusion, the people who have escaped claim never giving up was key in reaching complete deliverence.

peggy sue · Apr 9, 2012

Cotjones said:
Even this is a better view.
By I still believe we must account for genetics.

Does someone with tourettes go to hell for cursing the Lord's name?

isn't it odd that some children with tourettes always scream out blasphemies against God and Jesus, i've yet to see a tourettes victim have out burst against Buddah or Allah or some other false god

straydog · Apr 9, 2012

Cotjones said:
Deuteronomy also says:
If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.

Leviticus also says:
Such slaves you have, male or female, should come from the nations around you. From them you may buy slaves.

1 kings also says:
Solomon had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines. IT also clearly doesn't denounce the practice of polygamy but instead it denounces that Solomon had wives which led him astray.

1 corinthians also says:
"Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says." (1 Corinthians 14:34)

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 NASB
If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity.

I find it amusing that you choose to ignore and follow verses based on your interests.

I just posted passages regarding homosexuality and sodomites,that were relevant to the topic....

This thread is about homosexuality....unless you want to get off topic??

Osage Bluestem · Apr 9, 2012

Psych said:
Here goes, attempt no. 2 after this got shut down for being in the wrong place.

Once again, this is not a state-your-opinion-and-begone thread, but an actual attempt at a discussion, so please back up your argument with some kind of logic.

I think all sins (homosexuality included) are a result of the evil that comes from people because they are wicked naturally since the fall. The only cure is salvation through Christ.

Sketcher · Apr 9, 2012

Indulging in homosexual behavior is undeniably a choice.

LOCO · Apr 9, 2012

Heterosexual people do not choose to be heterosexuals.

Homosexual people do not choose to be homosexual. It is however, outside the norm.

It is not inherited. It may be a combination of genetic and environmental factors.

They should be treated with the same respect, regard and compassion you treat others.

I as a Catholic in good conscience am compelled to treat all homosexuals with love and care as our Catechism teaches (below).

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection

So from the Catholic understanding to be 'homosexual' is not a sin. Engaging in homosexual acts is a sin.

straydog · Apr 9, 2012

LOCO said:
They should be treated with the same respect, regard and compassion you treat others.

Well that goes against the Bible....

In the OT,it is an abomination,punishable by death...in the NT,homosexuals lack the chance to ''inherit the kingdom of God''

So why should they be treated with Respect and Compassion?

Psych · Apr 9, 2012

Medium to Long Post ahead. Go on and skip down to my reply to your own post if you don't want to read it all.
| | |
VVV

For clarification: homosexuality is understood to be an enduring sexual attraction and/or behavior toward members of the same gender. Meaning both attraction without behavior and behavior without attraction count.

Schroeder said:
I think it is a choice. scripture says its a sin (rom 1). i think one is born prone towards certain tendencies. One can be born shy and feminine. Over time this person may be bullied or mistreated etc or being told over and over he is girlish and therefor society says they are gay. Its a long process of becoming gay with choices you make in listening to those around you and taking them to mean something that will effect your life in the future. just like kids that are told they are mean all the time or stupid or whatever eventually they will act that way just for the fact that they are always told that that is who they are. Its very complicated process but easier now then ever becasue of the acceptance of being gay even though they keep yelling they are not.

What about gay people who aren't in the slightest effeminate, yet for some reason are unwaveringly attracted to their own gender? Those people exist too. And plenty of straight people have totally "gay" personalities, and might even be teased for it, but end up straight because, well, they actually thought that would be more fun. Also, do you really think other people saying you're gay would actually be strong enough to make someone feel homosexual attractions, and simultaneously block out all straight attractions? Think about it. As persecuted as gays are, if you've got straight feelings and gay feelings, you're going to choose straight. (Unless your family/ friends have no problem with it; then you might decide to be bi).

And for the record, if someone is yelling they are not gay, that is a good indicator that they are because of the confusing but very identifiable Reaction Formation phenomenon. If they aren't gay, they have nothing to worry about when someone says they are (granted, some irritable kids are going to fight back no matter what the other guy is saying, but that is not ALL PEOPLE).

His_disciple3 said:
it is a choice, you choose who you lay down with, just as in fornication. point being has anyone ever turned from being a homosexual and either quit having any sex or started having sex with the opposite sex? yes, so there, it is a choice!!! and a bad choice at that!

"point being has anyone ever earnestly tried turning from being a homosexual and either not been able to or just quit having any sex at all the rest of their life? yes, so there, it is not a choice!!!"

see how that logic doesn't work? Although I do think my side is a better argument, because if you succeed at something 50% of the time (gay therapy's success rate is less than that) and fail 50%, then all you had was the choice to try [to quit being homosexual].

Also, outside of what the Bible insinuates, what makes it a bad choice?

Christownsme said:
It's a choice to get involved in the first place, just like Hisdisciple_3 said, and his reasonings, but after that the person may want to get out of the situation. And it's now a cross of suffering to find victory over the temptation. Believe me, although I haven't ever been homosexual, I've gotten involved in different situations where when you start, you're making a clear choice. But once you're hooked, and the Holy Spirit convicts you, you bear a cross of suffering to discipline your body, as Paul said, in order not to do those things again.

One of my close friends is gay, and I know enough that to say there's always a point of a clear-cut choice is wrong. Sometimes gay people have dreams with homosexual content, long before they ever realize they are gay (and none with heterosexual content). How do you explain that? Once again, a person with heterosexual attractions and homosexual attractions will choose heterosexual.

Christownsme said:
Sometimes it's one step forward and 2 backward, but we always get back up because Jesus is our victory.

Explain the countless gay Christians who after praying and pursuing the Holy Spirit about it for years and years, don't "get back up".

Also, fun fact: teenagers with a Christian upbringing are 1/3 as likely to have sex before marriage, 1/5 as likely to abuse drugs, but just as likely to be homosexual as their non-religious peers.

straydog said:
Here is a 50's anti-homosexual video(youtube)

Boys Beware! Homosexuals are on the prowl! - YouTube

I don't know whether, with posting that video, you were trying to imply (wrongly) that disproportionately many sex offenders are gay, or you were trying to shock me with the fact that until APA took it out in 1973 homosexuality was classified as a mental disorder.

Cotjones said:
Does someone with tourettes go to hell for cursing the Lord's name?

Demons!

holyrokker · Apr 9, 2012

Osage Bluestem said:
I think all sins (homosexuality included) are a result of the evil that comes from people because they are wicked naturally since the fall.

I strongly disagree with the notion that people are "wicked naturally". Each person is the originator of his or her own sinful attitudes and trappings.

James 1:14-16 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own desire. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.

Jesus was made like us in every way. He had the same flesh, the same desires, the same type of temptations.

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