Calculating Easter

Rick Otto · Apr 8, 2012

Trogool said:
I think it's funny that you're willing to believe Saint Polycarp, but not Pope Saint Anicetus. Gotta love those double standards.

Why do you say I don't believe Anicetus? What is it that St.Pope Anicetus said? De he say Sunday observance was apostolic? Which apostle taught it? Doesn't "apostolic" mean "taught by an apostle"?

How can I believe them both when only one cited an apostle & the other cited elders, or presbyters? Whats up with that?

KyrieEleison87 · Apr 8, 2012

Rick Otto said:
That's what I thought. No apostle.
So we redefine "apostolic" tradition?
No apostle need be tied to any tradition.

Lol. So you went from my statement that Tradition is mostly inherited from the Apostles collectively, to the conclusion that I'm saying that NO Apostle needs to be connected to Tradition? You're either not paying attention or intentionally distorting my position.

They are all "apostolic" if we can find one early church it happened in?

Wow. All of Christendom outside Asia Minor is the equivalent of one local church to you?

KyrieEleison87 · Apr 8, 2012

Rick Otto said:
Rick Otto said:

Why do you say I don't believe Anicetus? What is it that St.Pope Anicetus said? De he say Sunday observance was apostolic?

Click to expand...

Yes.

Which apostle taught it? Doesn't "apostolic" mean "taught by an apostle"?

Click to expand...

As we've already covered, "apostolic" does NOT usually mean, "coming from one particular Apostle." It more typically means, "from the Apostles [collectively.]"

How can I believe them both when only one cited an apostle & the other cited elders, or presbyters? Whats up with that?

Click to expand...

OK, first of all, who ordained those elders/presbyters? We're talking about a second century dispute; both sides were obviously very close to the source. Clearly both sides of the debate claimed apostolic origin for their tradition of celebrating on one or the other day. This is why the Council of Nicaea addressed the issue. Are you claiming that the Council was wrong? What else was it wrong about?

Standing Up · Apr 8, 2012

KyrieEleison87 said:
Lol. So you went from my statement that Tradition is mostly inherited from the Apostles collectively, to the conclusion that I'm saying that NO Apostle needs to be connected to Tradition? You're either not paying attention or intentionally distorting my position.

Wow. All of Christendom outside Asia Minor is the equivalent of one local church to you?

Chrysostom said all the church used to observe it one way (as Polycarp taught).

Anicetus chose to follow the formed custom of Sixtus (per Irenaeus). It happens. Firmilian in 256 will confirm that Rome didn't always follow apostolic teaching.

Touma · Apr 8, 2012

Does it really matter what day it lands on? I think the thing to really be worried about is whether or not you celebrate the Resurrection every day of your life as a follower of Christ.

Standing Up · Apr 8, 2012

Touma said:
Does it really matter what day it lands on? I think the thing to really be worried about is whether or not you celebrate the Resurrection every day of your life as a follower of Christ.

It matters because of what unfolded afterwards. But not the thread for that.

GratiaCorpusChristi · Apr 8, 2012

*sigh*

The Synod of Whitby 664 laid this issue to rest. The Columban monks of Ireland who evangelized Iona and Lindisfarne were celebrated it according to the Passover date, while the Continental Christians who had evangelized the Kingdom of Kent celebrated it according to the tradition of the Council of Nicea, 325, which was the unanimous Christian tradition on the Continent. The king of Northumbria, Oswiu, whose domains lay between the prominent monastic compounds of Iona (on the west coast of Britain) and Lindisfarne (on the east coast) and north of Kent, wanted a single date. From that point on, the debate was settled in favor of the ecumenical date.

The next debate over the date of Easter would arise not because of a difference in calculating the date relative to the vernal equinox, but because of a difference in determining the date of the vernal equinox itself. When the west moved to the Gregorian calendar, the East remained with the Julian calendar. It really doesn't have anything to do with the date of the Jewish Passover, which was the issue under debate and the dating system rejected at the Council of Nicea, 325.

a_ntv · Apr 8, 2012

GratiaCorpusChristi said:
The next debate over the date of Easter would arise not because of a difference in calculating the date relative to the vernal equinox, but because of a difference in determining the date of the vernal equinox itself. When the west moved to the Gregorian calendar, the East remained with the Julian calendar.

Well, it is more complicated. The Eastern Orthodox use the "Paschalion", i.e. a computed method to find the vernal equinox. This Paschalion uses a cycle which initially gave a reasonable approximation in a range of few decades, but after 1400 years it gives almost random results.
This "error" has to be summed to the Julian-Gregorian issue.

Standing Up · Apr 8, 2012

Trogool said:
I think it's funny that you're willing to believe Saint Polycarp, but not Pope Saint Anicetus. Gotta love those double standards.

Not exactly. Irenaeus tells us the two sources of the teaching---one is from apostles to Polycarp, and the other is from Sixtus I to Anicetus.

It's a simple choice that was made---believe the apostles or believe a bishop.

PS. It happens. For example, Origen told us that scripture says Mary had more children, while the protoevangelium of James maintained her ever-virginity. Origen chose the poj.

Standing Up · Apr 8, 2012

visionary said:
Passover Lamb that Yeshua is was sacrificed on Passover and resurrected on First Fruits which is always on sunday.

I used to think that too, but no longer. It's always on the 16th and the 16th of Nisan floated (changed) from year to year.

14, Passover--lamb sacrificed.
15, first day feast of unleavened bread--burial.
16, first fruits, resurrection.

It (first fruits is on the 16th) is easy to see if one reads the Septuagint, but not so easy if one uses the Masoretic text, upon which the KJV is based.

The "count" to pentecost does always start on a sunday.

zeke37 · Apr 9, 2012

KyrieEleison87 said:
While it was not called "Easter," the holiday in Greek was (and still is) called Pascha. The ECFs most certainly did celebrate it and regarded it as the commemoration of the Resurrection of Christ. It is true that there were some Christians that held on to a tradition of celebrating Pascha on the same day as the Jewish Passover, but I don't think they were at all in the majority, and the Church pretty early on settled that by declaring that Pascha should always be celebrated on a Sunday (whereas Passover occurs on different days of the week depending on the year), because that is the day Christ rose.

Passover is the english translation of Pascha. there is no difference.
easter is not in the greek manuscripts at all.
easter was it's own distinct heathen festival held at the spring solstace,
which is coincidentally close to Pascha/Passover's date of the 14th day at even, after the new year (spring solstace)

ps. Christ most prob. rose our Sat night...after sunset...after Sabbath.
not Sunday....but anyway.

3 days and 3 nights from our Wed's sunset right when Passover (Pascha) began
(as the Lord caused it to go dark early that day, as we all know)

zeke37 · Apr 9, 2012

KyrieEleison87 said:
When did the Apostles teach us to always celebrate Pascha on Passover irrespective of the day of the week?

1Cor5:7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Mat26:26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

zeke37 · Apr 9, 2012

Rick Otto said:
Polycarp told Anicetus that St. John taught him to celebrate the resurrection on Nisan 14. You didn't know that?

does it really matter what he said?
matter, because He was killed on Nisan 14, a Wed afternoon.
the next calander day started at sunset, making it Nisan 15 when He gave up the Ghost.
Nisan 15 that year was Passover and also called a Sabbath.

so obviously we should add 3 days to that to get Nisan 18
That year, Nisan 18 began on our Saturday night at sunset, (when the weekly Sabbath ended)
and went through till Sunday at sunset..

GratiaCorpusChristi · Apr 9, 2012

a_ntv said:
Well, it is more complicated. The Eastern Orthodox use the "Paschalion", i.e. a computed method to find the vernal equinox. This Paschalion uses a cycle which initially gave a reasonable approximation in a range of few decades, but after 1400 years it gives almost random results.
This "error" has to be summed to the Julian-Gregorian issue.

My mistake. I ought to have just stuck to what I know best- the Synod of Whitby.

GratiaCorpusChristi · Apr 9, 2012

zeke37 said:
Passover is the english translation of Pascha. there is no difference.
easter is not in the greek manuscripts at all.
easter was it's own distinct heathen festival held at the spring solstace,
which is coincidentally close to Pascha/Passover's date of the 14th day at even, after the new year (spring solstace)

ps. Christ most prob. rose our Sat night...after sunset...after Sabbath.
not Sunday....but anyway.

3 days and 3 nights from our Wed's sunset right when Passover (Pascha) began
(as the Lord caused it to go dark early that day, as we all know)

Yeah, we know that Christ rose during the night. That's why historic, apostolic churches hold the liturgy of the Easter Vigil on Saturday night.

Also, three days is inclusive reckoning, which was the standard way to count in the ancient world. Thus, three years from Nero's death in AD 68 is AD 70. And thus three days from Friday means Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. It's simply the way most people in the ancient world counted.

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 9, 2012

Originally Posted by KyrieEleison87 While it was not called "Easter," the holiday in Greek was (and still is) called Pascha. The ECFs most certainly did celebrate it and regarded it as the commemoration of the Resurrection of Christ. It is true that there were some Christians that held on to a tradition of celebrating Pascha on the same day as the Jewish Passover, but I don't think they were at all in the majority, and the Church pretty early on settled that by declaring that Pascha should always be celebrated on a Sunday (whereas Passover occurs on different days of the week depending on the year), because that is the day Christ rose.

visionary said:
Passover Lamb that Yeshua is was sacrificed on Passover and resurrected on First Fruits which is always on sunday.

So what day of the week would Passover be celebrated?

Rotherham) Exodus 34:26 The beginning of the firstfruits of thy ground, shalt thou bring into the house of Yahweh, thy God, Thou shalt not boil a kid, in the milk of its dam.

Rotherham) 1 Corinthians 15:20 But now hath Christ been raised from among the dead,--a firstfruit of them who have fallen asleep;

2 Timothy 2:5 If moreover any man contend even in the games, he is not crowned unless lawfully he contend;
6 The toiling husbandman ought first of the fruits to partake:

.

visionary · Apr 9, 2012

LittleLambofJesus said:
So what day of the week would Passover be celebrated?

Rotherham) Exodus 34:26 The beginning of the firstfruits of thy ground, shalt thou bring into the house of Yahweh, thy God, Thou shalt not boil a kid, in the milk of its dam.

Rotherham) 1 Corinthians 15:20 But now hath Christ been raised from among the dead,--a firstfruit of them who have fallen asleep;

2 Timothy 2:5 If moreover any man contend even in the games, he is not crowned unless lawfully he contend;
6 The toiling husbandman ought first of the fruits to partake:

.

Passover is 14 days from the New Moon. It is not tied to the day of the week like First Fruits or Pentecost. First Fruits is the "day after the sabbath" and it is also the start of the counting of the Omer [49 days] and Pentecost [50] is celebrated the next day. Since First Fruits/Wave Sheaf is always on a sunday.. 50 days later will also always land on sunday Pentecost.

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 9, 2012

visionary said:
Passover is 14 days from the New Moon. It is not tied to the day of the week like First Fruits or Pentecost. .

How often does a New Moon show during the year?
Interesting to note that the Roman army sieged Jerusalem on the feast of the Passover

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

..............The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem was the feast of the Passover.............

...............This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A.D. 70 :
its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.

...

visionary · Apr 9, 2012

You can see the counting of the Omer here

New Moon – March 22, 14:37
First Quarter – March 30, 19:41
Moon Phases, April 2012
Full Moon – April 6, 19:19
Last Quarter – April 13, 10:50
New Moon – April 21, 07:18
First Quarter – April 29, 09:57
Moon Phases, May 2012
Full Moon – May 6, 03:35
Last Quarter – May 12, 21:47
New Moon – May 20, 23:47

The moon becomes hidden and cannot be seen for approximately two days - or [slightly] less or slightly more - every month: approximately one day before its conjunction with the sun at the end of the month, and one day after its conjunction with the sun, [before] it is sighted in the west in the evening. The first night when the moon is sighted in the west after being hidden is the beginning of the month. Afterwards, 29 days are counted from that day. If the moon is sighted on the night of the thirtieth [day], the thirtieth day will be Rosh Chodesh [of the following month]. If it is not sighted, Rosh Chodesh will be on the thirty-first day, and the thirtieth day will be included in the previous month. There is no need [to sight] the moon on the thirty-first night; whether or not [the moon] is sighted [the new month begins that night]. For there are no lunar months longer than thirty days.

Rick Otto · Apr 9, 2012

zeke37 said:
does it really matter what he said?
matter, because He was killed on Nisan 14, a Wed afternoon.
the next calander day started at sunset, making it Nisan 15 when He gave up the Ghost.
Nisan 15 that year was Passover and also called a Sabbath.

so obviously we should add 3 days to that to get Nisan 18
That year, Nisan 18 began on our Saturday night at sunset, (when the weekly Sabbath ended)
and went through till Sunday at sunset..

Only if being "apostolic" matters & only if "apostolic" means "taught by one or more of them.
To me, it always matters at least more or less, what is said. That's why it's important to write it down.
To establish testimony of more than one witness.

Calculating Easter

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

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