Born From Mary's Side?

Standing Up · Apr 7, 2012

In the Protoevangelium of James (PoJ) thread, it was shown to be gnostic and docetic (Christ only appeared to have flesh, wasn't really born normally) and contradictory to scripture.

Docetism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As the conversation unfolded about His birth (off topic to the PoJ), I opened a new thread on the Birth of Christ to explore the nature of His birth further. Some thought He was born normally; others thought it more unnaturally. Sure enough, someone mentioned the east gate was closed to support the unnatural birth. In turn someone said that doesn't make sense, it'd be the south gate where normal birth occurs.

:idea:

The light bulb went off and I said the east gate was referring to the old belief Christ was born out from Mary's side. Not sure anyone agreed with the lightbulb

.

Lo and behold, I stumbled upon this from John of Damascus c700ad.

The conception, indeed, was through the sense of hearing, but the birth through the usual path by which children come, although some tell tales of His birth through the side of [Mary] the Mother of God.
NPNF2-09. Hilary of Poitiers, John of Damascus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Although I don't have any further connections backwards from John yet, the birth through the side of Mary idea traces back to the gnostic PoJ.

So, Jesus born normally (the usual path of water, baby, placenta) OR Jesus born from Mary's side.

Which do you agree with?

Fireinfolding · Apr 7, 2012

Thats what I was saying on another thread, when it expresses her east gate (verses another direction) I thought it sounded more like a divine C section verses an opening of the womb (through the birth canal)

I mean woman come from the side of man and it speaks of the same man and woman being the mystery of Christ and the Church, unless its Christ being the one who is understood to come from the side of woman?

I dont understand the east gate as it refers to Mary bring forth Christ, I could understand a little if it was the south gate (for obvious reasons)

InSpiritInTruth · Apr 7, 2012

Exodus 13:12
That thou shalt set apart unto the LORD all that openeth the matrix, and every firstling that cometh of a beast which thou hast; the males shall be the LORD's.

Exodus 34:19
All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.
Numbers 3:12
And I, behold, I have taken the Levites from among the children of Israel instead of all the firstborn that openeth the matrix among the children of Israel: therefore the Levites shall be mine;
Numbers 18:15
Every thing that openeth the matrix in all flesh, which they bring unto the LORD, whether it be of men or beasts, shall be thine: nevertheless the firstborn of man shalt thou surely redeem, and the firstling of unclean beasts shalt thou redeem.

Next....

LaSpino3 · Apr 7, 2012

Now we are not speaking of Luke 1:35, When "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee (Mary,) and the power of the Highest (God) shall overshadow thee."

So the confusion seems to be about Jesus birth. Hmmmmm, let's see, 2000 years ago, in a very, very small place; in a place where animals were kept, no doctors, nurses, surgical tools, etc. hmmmm,

I would say Jesus was born in a natural way as are all young children. He had taken on human form, he was a child born of a woman; Scriptures speak of no abnormal type of delivery, or birth, so lets all agree that Jesus was born as any normal child is.

These are the types of questions and comments that drive people goofy; cause confusion among new believers, and make the Christian faith appear to be a joke. So please, its Easter, enjoy it. Tell people what Easter is all about, and stop trying to make something as wonderful, and miraculous as the birth of a child into something monsterious, or un-natural.

Phil LaSpino

SolomonVII · Apr 7, 2012

InSpiritInTruth said:
Exodus 13:12
That thou shalt set apart unto the LORD all that openeth the matrix, and every firstling that cometh of a beast which thou hast; the males shall be the LORD's.

Exodus 34:19
All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.
Numbers 3:12
And I, behold, I have taken the Levites from among the children of Israel instead of all the firstborn that openeth the matrix among the children of Israel: therefore the Levites shall be mine;
Numbers 18:15
Every thing that openeth the matrix in all flesh, which they bring unto the LORD, whether it be of men or beasts, shall be thine: nevertheless the firstborn of man shalt thou surely redeem, and the firstling of unclean beasts shalt thou redeem.

Next....

Next what? West matrix? North matrix?

How many matrixes (matrices?) does a woman have anyway?

SolomonVII · Apr 7, 2012

The OP article on docetism helps us understand that this wasn't just some quaint obscure little myth from antiquity, but shows us just how much of an impact that the mindset that wrote POJ had.
For example, from the Koran:

The Qur'an Sura 4:157–158 reads:
“And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger — they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.”[Quran 4:157–158 (Pickthall)]
The Qur'an was compiled in the mid-seventh century AD (around 650 CE), corresponding to the period when docetism was still commonly accepted and taught among some Christian sects.
While in this sense Islam is undeniably docetic

Frankly, I have never heard about this East gate theory, until reading some of this on the thread that was already closed. From the POJ, once it is understood that some people believe in a birth from the side, this idea would get a lot of support from the POJ narrative for sure.

Is this somehow a belief from within orthodox Christianity as well?

Fireinfolding · Apr 7, 2012

SolomonVII said:
Next what? West matrix? North matrix?

How many matrixes (matrices?) does a woman have anyway?

A womans matrix is southward

(At least mine is ^_^

)

I have watch the baby channel and so I know other womens are south too, I dont understand east

hedrick · Apr 7, 2012

Since there's nothing in Scripture about this, I think we have to assume that the birth was normal. Anything else (including perpetual virginity) encourages docetism. As we see in the Protoevangelium, various docetic ideas were common in the early church. While mainstream theology avoided most of them, some of the Marian ideas did make it in.

Knee V · Apr 7, 2012

The passage in Ezekiel is that the East Gate is closed so that ONLY the Prince enters through it. So if that is a foreshadowing of Mary and Christ, then it would be foreshadowing Christ, and no one else, being born of her.

Christ was born naturally like every other baby who is born naturally.

And SolomonVII, no, Christ being born from Mary's side is not Orthodox teaching and is rejected as nonsense. Unless you meant orthodox with a little o...

And the PoJ is not the source of any doctrine. It may have little tidbits that aren't completely out there (just as the Book of Mormon and the Quran are not wrong 100% of the time ... just 99.9'something %) which may agree with orthodox teaching, but we should not look to it as a source of teaching.

Fireinfolding · Apr 7, 2012

How can he enter the east gate when she was overshadowed (come upon her) north gate (from above) and come out south gate (from below).

Someone has to be able to make some sense of east (as it relates to Mary)

SolomonVII · Apr 7, 2012

knee-v said:
The passage in Ezekiel is that the East Gate is closed so that ONLY the Prince enters through it. So if that is a foreshadowing of Mary and Christ, then it would be foreshadowing Christ, and no one else, being born of her.

Christ was born naturally like every other baby who is born naturally.

And SolomonVII, no, Christ being born from Mary's side is not Orthodox teaching and is rejected as nonsense. Unless you meant orthodox with a little o...

And the PoJ is not the source of any doctrine. It may have little tidbits that aren't completely out there (just as the Book of Mormon and the Quran are not wrong 100% of the time ... just 99.9'something %) which may agree with orthodox teaching, but we should not look to it as a source of teaching.

I meant orthodox with a little o.

SolomonVII · Apr 7, 2012

Fireinfolding said:
How can he enter the east gate when she was overshadowed (come upon her) north gate (from above) and come out south gate (from below).

Someone has to be able to make some sense of east (as it relates to Mary)

It seems like one of those cases where different things will be heard whether one is listening to the left mouth or to the right mouth.

Fireinfolding · Apr 7, 2012

SolomonVII said:
It seems like one of those cases where different things will be heard whether one is listening to the left mouth or to the right mouth.

You mean like speaking out of both sides of your mouth, but depnding on what side you are speaking out of either? ^_^

SolomonVII · Apr 7, 2012

Fireinfolding said:
A womans matrix is southward

(At least mine is )

I have watch the baby channel and so I know other womens are south too, I dont understand east

South is plenty enough for me too! :angel:

Fireinfolding · Apr 7, 2012

SolomonVII said:
South is plenty enough for me too!

I might be like, alright, thats fair, lets go from there, this might have "some merit" lol

But east?

Im like... HUH? ^_^

InSpiritInTruth · Apr 7, 2012

Fireinfolding said:
How can he enter the east gate when she was overshadowed (come upon her) north gate (from above) and come out south gate (from below).

Someone has to be able to make some sense of east (as it relates to Mary)

They can't because the gates are spiritual and Mary is carnal.

Ezekiel 44

1Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.
2Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut. 3It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.

Jesus said I am the way.

Did Christ ascend back up through Mary in any way, shape, or form? That doctrine is carnal, and is foolishness. :doh:

Knee V · Apr 7, 2012

I think that if we're going to get particular about the various gates corresponding to different areas of the body, then we would have to say that the Prince passed through a tunnel more or less underneath the Temple. North is only up if we're holding our map that way.

If the passage in Ezekiel is about Christ being the only one to be in Mary's womb, then "East" would have some significance other than a description of Mary's anatomy.

Fireinfolding · Apr 7, 2012

InSpiritInTruth said:
They can't because the gates are spiritual and Mary is carnal.

Ezekiel 44

1Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.
2Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut. 3It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.

Jesus said I am the way.

Did Christ ascend back up through Mary in any way, shape, or form? That doctrine is carnal, and is foolishness.

Ok what about the porch of that gate?

Ok we have I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Then the strait gate and and east gate...?

I so dont know my gates ^_^

InSpiritInTruth · Apr 7, 2012

Fireinfolding said:
Ok what about the porch of that gate?

Ok we have I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Then the strait gate and and east gate...?

I so dont know my gates

I believe the outward sanctuary is the porch of that gate. Outward meaning outside of the heavenly. Just as the heavenly witness came down in the form of earthly by way of the man Jesus Christ (the door way) by which also we have access to the Father in Him, and through Him(the Way).

The doorway being the dividing line between the heavenly and the earthly. Does that make sense?

Fireinfolding · Apr 7, 2012

InSpiritInTruth said:
I believe the outward sanctuary is the porch of that gate. Outward meaning outside of the heavenly. Just as the heavenly witness came down in the form of earthly by way of the man Jesus Christ (the door way) by which also we have access to the Father in Him, and through Him(the Way).

The doorway being the dividing line between the heavenly and the earthly. Does that make sense?

Much better, but how might we see it as wrong to show Mary as somehow being the outward sanctuary of that gate through which he enters into (this world)?

Im still trying to wrap my brain around it, becuase he too is the gate (or door) by which we enter into the heavenly sanctuary right?

Im as bad with gates as I am with math ^_^

The porch part and east part is would be that which hinders me in either the earthly or the heavenly, I really should brush up on this, I havent studied the patern (obviously).

But I have asked many times before its just no one seems to have an expressed understanding to show why this is, but simply say this is so.

Now I dont you dont believe that, but how might it be proven incorrect if one is the outward sanctuary and the heavenly (as you might show).

Know what I am asking?

Born From Mary's Side?

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