the importance of Virginity?

To the op - Thanks for posting on this. It confuses the heck out of me too. Women aren't considered property anymore (at least in Western society), so whether or not she's had sex has no bearing on her potential economic value as a bride. And men were never told that had to be virgins when they married, only not to defile someone else's property. Moreover, virginity purely a socially engineered concept; there's no medical indicators for it in either gender. Anyone's sexuality isn't a commodity, and I don't get why people always treat it like it is. The 1,000th time someone has sex is just as significant and special as the first time. My best guess is that it's so ingrained in our social mentality after thousands of years that most people can't let it go, despite the massive cultural paradigm shift.

I didn't read through the previous four pages, so sorry if this is redundant.
To everybody that posted before me, thanks for not turning this into a rabid shouting/flaming match. I'm really getting sick of people being unable to have discussions and disagree like adults.

groups postings said:

Sex really isn't that difficult.
It's pretty intuitive, actually.

It's a myth that two people have to "test drive" the car before marriage bec. they might not be sexually compatible, though some couples have problems.

Doesn't take much for two virgins to figure out what to do.
And if one is worried, or wants to know better what to do, there are good Christian sex manuals like Sheet Music, which also advises having a surgeon break the bride's hymen for easier access. Have read of the difficulties some Christian couples experience.

When I first had sex, @17-18 with my HS GF, we figured things out pretty well.
It wasn't great, but it wasn't rocket science.

This was before I became of faith a year later in college.
Yes, I've apologized to her for my actions, me thinking only of myself and not being the man I should have been to her.

Am not proud of that early sex, which I think screwed me up and made me nervous and afraid of women through most of my 20s.
That remains my biggest life regret.

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I've said before, and it's still true, that this is only the case when people have fairly conventional interests. When you've been raised all your life to think hitting women is the worst thing you can do, and your girlfriend says she'd love for you to hold her down and slap her face, it just got complicated.

The communication necessary for good sex would be intuitive, if people were raised with the expectation that they would let other people know what their needs and desires are, and that they'd respect the needs and desires of others. As it is, we're raised to think that having needs makes you needy--that saying, "Hey guys, I don't think I'm up for this outing. It just doesn't feel right to me," makes you a scaredy cat or a diva. That saying, "I don't eat meat," is an invitation for other people to lecture you on why that's ridiculous. That telling somebody "what you're doing isn't right," will result in them getting mad at you, or feeling hurt. Generally, people--especially women!-- are raised to think that expressing needs or desires is an imposition and lowers people's respect for you.

A person who feels like that isn't going to feel comfortable announcing that what you're doing isn't turning them on, or that they need a solid 45 minutes of foreplay before they're able to even contemplate penetration. Especially, if they don't even know that about themself.

Check out the sex tips in Cosmo sometimes--I don't know how many people take them seriously, but I know that a ton of people read them, and people are influenced by what they read, whether they take it seriously or not. The underlying message of nearly all of them is that if you say what you want, you're being unbearably forward and will probably scare your partner away.

I've heard pretty consistently that the most common demographic among people visiting prostitutes is married, middle-aged socially conservative men. Likewise, you've got middle-aged women who are sick of faking [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] but don't know how to improve their sex life.

As simple as it might be to figure out how the bits work (which, itself, isn't necessarily simple), apparently, a fair number of people struggle with it.

groups postings said:

Sex really isn't that difficult.
It's pretty intuitive, actually.

It's a myth that two people have to "test drive" the car before marriage bec. they might not be sexually compatible, though some couples have problems.

Doesn't take much for two virgins to figure out what to do.
And if one is worried, or wants to know better what to do, there are good Christian sex manuals like Sheet Music, which also advises having a surgeon break the bride's hymen for easier access. Have read of the difficulties some Christian couples experience.

When I first had sex, @17-18 with my HS GF, we figured things out pretty well.
It wasn't great, but it wasn't rocket science.

This was before I became of faith a year later in college.
Yes, I've apologized to her for my actions, me thinking only of myself and not being the man I should have been to her.

Am not proud of that early sex, which I think screwed me up and made me nervous and afraid of women through most of my 20s.
That remains my biggest life regret.

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Pretty much agree with what Mling is saying. Also, we're not just discussing the mere mechanics of sex. Of course it's not hard to figure out what to do, but the question becomes do you actually know what you're doing? It's about knowing what your partner likes and what they're comfortable doing. Knowing the mechanics of sex doesn't make any difference if your partner isn't comfortable with themselves. If you're not actually taking the time to know what your partner's needs and desires are, knowing every sexual position the sun doesn't make the least bit of difference.

Mling said:

As simple as it might be to figure out how the bits work (which, itself, isn't necessarily simple), apparently, a fair number of people struggle with it.

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Am not naive here. There are real issues.

But for the most part, I think it's overblown.

Wasn't a virgin in my 20s, though I wished I was.

Really, was content hugging and kissing my HS GF @17-18. But one night at the drive-in movie in my car, she told me "I never tried anything...."
So I started exploring and after awhile, we found ourselves having sex.

Only did that maybe 3-4X and it always felt yucky.
Wasn't a Christian then, but wasn't ANTI-Christian or an atheist. Just didn't know anything about it.

She (a Catholic) and I both felt intense guilt, so I knew it was wrong.
A condom scare and guilt made me stop to think if I really wanted to be parent, so asked her if we could stop.

It was all on me, though, and I still feel guilt over it.
God... I could have been a better man to her...

Even 30 yrs. later, can vividly remember what happened that first time, her reaction, etc.

Guys/gals, it's true.
You NEVER forget your first time. NEVER.

The "test driving" I think can be worse than any problems which may happen after the wedding ceremony.

JustMeSee said:

Inexperience is a virtue. It goes along with buying a new car. The value diminishes once you drive it off the lot.

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The main difference is that humans aren't cars, we aren't objects so please don't treat a human like that.


I consider protecting virginity for the sake of virginity is something very irrational.

gattaca said:

i just don't understand why people believe that Virginity is so important?
it just doesn't make sense to me.

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From a Christian point of view, it's a matter of sex being viewed as belonging to marriage - not outside or before it. Having said that, it isn't important to me. S..t happens, and people make mistakes.

groups postings said:

Am not naive here. There are real issues.

But for the most part, I think it's overblown.

Wasn't a virgin in my 20s, though I wished I was.

Really, was content hugging and kissing my HS GF @17-18. But one night at the drive-in movie in my car, she told me "I never tried anything...."
So I started exploring and after awhile, we found ourselves having sex.

Only did that maybe 3-4X and it always felt yucky.
Wasn't a Christian then, but wasn't ANTI-Christian or an atheist. Just didn't know anything about it.

She (a Catholic) and I both felt intense guilt, so I knew it was wrong.
A condom scare and guilt made me stop to think if I really wanted to be parent, so asked her if we could stop.

It was all on me, though, and I still feel guilt over it.
God... I could have been a better man to her...

Even 30 yrs. later, can vividly remember what happened that first time, her reaction, etc.

Guys/gals, it's true.
You NEVER forget your first time. NEVER.

The "test driving" I think can be worse than any problems which may happen after the wedding ceremony.

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This is a clear example of what sex-obsessed religions can do to a person's psyche. If you are still feeling guilt over a sexual episode that happened years and years ago (that was consentual for all parties involved), then you're doing it wrong.

orangelight said:

The main difference is that humans aren't cars, we aren't objects so please don't treat a human like that.


I consider protecting virginity for the sake of virginity is something very irrational.

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Wow, even without the smiley face at the end of my post, I would have thought that people would recognize that I was being facetious. As long as the adults are being responsible, I don't draw much of a distinction between amounts of sexual encounters.

The very term is nebulous and outdated.

JustMeSee said:

Inexperience is a virtue. It goes along with buying a new car. The value diminishes once you drive it off the lot.

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yasic said:

Experience is a virtue. It goes along with hiring a new tutor. I would want one that has had experience tutoring before rather than one trying it for the first time.

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But you don't need experience for everything in life.

Virgin wool, an unopened product (easier to return to the store if not opened), a new car....

Mling said:

People aren't objects--you don't buy them and you don't own them. They don't pop into existence when you meet them and exist primarily for your enjoyment.

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What? What do you mean?

groups postings said:

But you don't need experience for everything in life.

Virgin wool, an unopened product (easier to return to the store if not opened), a new car....

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Virgin olive oil, too! Virgin Islands, great place to visit!

JustMeSee said:

Inexperience is a virtue. It goes along with buying a new car. The value diminishes once you drive it off the lot.

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Cars diminish in value because they wear out. Are you saying your wife's or husband's "value" diminishes when you have sex with them because they "wear out?" It's this kind of twisted morality and warped logic that allows so many people to commit such atrocities in the names of their religions.

sandwiches said:

Cars diminish in value because they wear out. Are you saying your wife's or husband's "value" diminishes when you have sex with them because they "wear out?"

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No, but the more someone engages in intimate acts, like sex, the less important it can become (to them).

Take prostitutes or inappropriate content actresses.
Nothing particularly "special" about the sex there.

groups postings said:

No, but the more someone engages in intimate acts, like sex, the less important it can become (to them).

Take prostitutes or inappropriate content actresses.
Nothing particularly "special" about the sex there.

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Or people in years-long committed relationships. We all know how, past the 10 year mark, nobody really cares about anything like keeping the sex life alive, because it's just not important anymore.

Mling said:

Or people in years-long committed relationships. We all know how, past the 10 year mark, nobody really cares about anything like keeping the sex life alive, because it's just not important anymore.

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You ever hear guys talk about (some) girls?

Heard one talk about a woman who was very popular with the guys.
He said he could "date" her, but then likely wouldn't bec. "every other guy goes with her..."
Meaning... she sleeps with A LOT of guys...

Reminds me of a gal named Mary Hill, who used to hang out in Cherry Hill Park:

Mary Hill loved to ride the merry-go-round.
All the guys got eager eyes watchin' Mary-go-'round.

All the girls they criticized her
But all the guys they idolized her.

In the daytime, she was a teaser.
But come the night, she was such a pleaser.
"Cause Mary Hill was such a thrill after dark...
Playin' games with everyone 'till way after dark...
Cherry Hill Park by Billy Joe Royal lyrics - YouTube



Guess having sex with almost everyone you date, Kind of lessens a person's value there, huh?

groups postings said:

You ever hear guys talk about (some) girls?

Heard one talk about a woman who was very popular with the guys.
He said he could "date" her, but then likely wouldn't bec. "every other guy goes with her..."
Meaning... she sleeps with A LOT of guys...

Reminds me of a gal named Mary Hill, who used to hang out in Cherry Hill Park:

Mary Hill loved to ride the merry-go-round.
All the guys got eager eyes watchin' Mary-go-'round.

All the girls they criticized her
But all the guys they idolized her.

In the daytime, she was a teaser.
But come the night, she was such a pleaser.
"Cause Mary Hill was such a thrill after dark...
Playin' games with everyone 'till way after dark...


Guess having sex with almost everyone you date, Kind of lessens a person's value there, huh?

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Nope. I guess the guys who talk about women like that are jerks who don't deserve to sleep with anybody at all.

Let's not give people a free pass to treat others like carp, just because the other person chose to exercise their nature-given right to use their body as they wish. (especially when it seems, the person doing the judging is making the exact same choice).

It is not the womens' fault that men like that are treating them badly.

They are not being treated badly because they have less value as a person.

They are not being treated badly because they did something to deserve it.

They are being treated badly because some men don't have respect for women who choose to live as if they're human beings.

They are being treated badly because those men are the kinds of people who treat people badly.

Those men are treating them badly because, given the option of doing so, they will choose to abuse people.

Or, put more casually, those women are being treated badly, because those men are jerks.

And if you read something like that, and your response is, "see, the women have less value now!" then evidently, you are too.


(And, to answer the question, no I haven't heard men talk about women like that, because I hang out with men who, even when they have the opportunity to treat people badly, turn it down and choose to treat people well.)

(Ps: I think we should start playing rape-culture-bingo. "If women make their own choices, it's their fault if men abuse them for it," is the center tile.)

groups postings said:

No, but the more someone engages in intimate acts, like sex, the less important it can become (to them).

Take prostitutes or inappropriate content actresses.
Nothing particularly "special" about the sex there.

Click to expand...

Should a married couple then abstain from having too much sex that its value doesn't decrease?

groups postings said:

You ever hear guys talk about (some) girls?

Heard one talk about a woman who was very popular with the guys.
He said he could "date" her, but then likely wouldn't bec. "every other guy goes with her..."
Meaning... she sleeps with A LOT of guys...

Reminds me of a gal named Mary Hill, who used to hang out in Cherry Hill Park:

Mary Hill loved to ride the merry-go-round.
All the guys got eager eyes watchin' Mary-go-'round.

All the girls they criticized her
But all the guys they idolized her.

In the daytime, she was a teaser.
But come the night, she was such a pleaser.
"Cause Mary Hill was such a thrill after dark...
Playin' games with everyone 'till way after dark...
Cherry Hill Park by Billy Joe Royal lyrics - YouTube



Guess having sex with almost everyone you date, Kind of lessens a person's value there, huh?

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Only if you are an yutz who think that kind of thing is important. Now I do agree there is an issue if a woman is having sex because of low self esteem or some other issue it is a bad situation but I see no reason why a woman should be valued less simply because she enjoys having sex with multiple people. My GF currently has two boyfriends, a girlfriend, a sub, and a play toy she gets to see occasionally. She is still a wonderful person and I value her love and companionship very highly.

I think part of the problem is people keep seeing sex as some sort of limited resource. If you love multiple people does it make your love less valuable? Do you love your wife less if you love your kids as well?

I only read the first and last pages of this thread and my eye is already twitching.

Seconding the rape-culture bingo idea, though. "Well, look at how she was dressed!", "Well what did she expect, drinking like that?" and "She's probably making it up because everyone knows she's a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] now!" can be tiles too.

P.S. If you think that a woman (or anyone, really, but this nonsense is aimed at women far more than it is at men) is less of a person because they enjoy sex, you are the one with the problem. Hope that helps.

Oh, and also: People can place great importance on sex even if they have it with multiple partners. Love is love, and sex with someone you love can be a pretty powerful thing even if the sex itself isn't even particularly good every time, as any married or long-term couple can attest.

Mling said:

Or, put more casually, those women are being treated badly, because those men are jerks.

And if you read something like that, and your response is, "see, the women have less value now!" then evidently, you are too.

(And, to answer the question, no I haven't heard men talk about women like that, because I hang out with men who, even when they have the opportunity to treat people badly, turn it down and choose to treat people well.)

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TBH,
Haven't really heard much talk like that.
In no way was I condoning people talking that way about another person.

However, it does say something about a woman (and man, for that matter ) if they like have sex with everyone they date....

If I dated a woman like that, really, I wouldn't throw rocks at her.
It's just not the type of woman I'd want to spend my life with.

(Ps: I think we should start playing rape-culture-bingo. "If women make their own choices, it's their fault if men abuse them for it," is the center tile.)

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Let's not hurl rape accusations here. They don't fit.

Belk said:

I think part of the problem is people keep seeing sex as some sort of limited resource. If you love multiple people does it make your love less valuable? Do you love your wife less if you love your kids as well?

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Take a look at this thread.... people in there bragging about having sex with like 30-75 partners before they turned 30....

LoveShack.org Community Forums

So pardon me if I feel differently about this issue.