Eastern Empire, Constantine Christianity & Life: How much of Catholic History's True?

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Thekla

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So many Saints were ... a "mess".

David, Moses had his moments, and on through the ages.

I recall what on monastic said; God consistently "paints" using broken brushes. Moses was her example - God's spokesman to the Pharaoh was a stutterer.

Looking at the effect Constantine had, despite his brokeness, is a testimony to God's majesty.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Amazing to consider that no matter how many centuries may pass, people are STILL people who do human things, no matter how messed up, and yet are capable of doing righteousness as well. Really humbles you...

yep, and it shows, as scary as it is, that the rest of us have no excuse.

but I think something to keep in mind is that at any time, if any of us bore hatred in our heart, that makes us just as guilty in God's eyes as someone who pulls a trigger. so none of us can judge people like Sts Constantine or Justinian. it's fair enough that you might not feel close to them personally, but I don't wanna be the guy who is before Christ on Judgment Day, and sees someone I slandered at His right hand because I didn't think they were worthy.

to piggy back what someone else had brought up, I think someone said the wise thief was made worthy of Paradise in one hour
 
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Gxg (G²)

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So many Saints were ... a "mess".

David, Moses had his moments, and on through the ages.

I recall what on monastic said; God consistently "paints" using broken brushes. Moses was her example - God's spokesman to the Pharaoh was a stutterer.

Looking at the effect Constantine had, despite his brokeness, is a testimony to God's majesty.
Beautiful phrase, in regards to the statement "God consistently paints using broken brushes."

When looking at the people in scripture and the many ways they were messed up and yet used mightily for the Lord, it's odd to see how many of us may think the same isn't possible for others today.

Constantine made many mistakes and yet he was used greatly by the Lord to ensure that many things were made possible. This does not mean that all choices made by the man that may've been good in one level were automatically beneficial for all groups in the future. I'm reminded of some of the things I was blessed to learn from the book entitled In the Heart of the Desert, Revised: The Spirituality of the Desert Fathers and Mothers by Rev. Dr. John Chryssavgis (e here ), as it concerns Eastern Monastic circles that radically disconnected themselves from the rest of the world....for the Desert Fathers felt they needed to become sectarian/flee from the corruption in the empire, regardless of many of the things done by Constantine when it came to mandatory council set up in order to get things established.

Nonetheless, the Lord used others such as Constantine---imperfect as he was was---to set into motion many things that have enabled believers to be where they are today. For anyone saying he could never have been saved or used of the Lord IMHO, there seems to be alot of circles praising individuals whom many proclaim preached the "Gospel" and yet their lifestyles had a HOST of issues within them that went counter to scriptural command---be it with Martin Luther being well known for being anti-semitic in his writings/hateful toward Jews (even though he led the Reformation)--or John Calvin in his ruthless treatment/abuse toward those who were Anabaptists and Michael Servetus/others.....or Jonathan Edwards, known for his "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God" speech during the Great Awakening, even though MANY ministers (such as John Wesley) condemned the man as a sinnner for tolerating slavery/owning slaves during his lifetime rather than advocating for freedom. The same with Martin Luther King, who proclaimed the GOspel even though he was apparently involved in affairs. There was once a discussion I kept up with that happened on Martin Luther King's Birthday where others were condeming the man because of his errors...saying he wasn't like great men of old in their proclaiming the GOspel---and comparision went down in showing what the GOspel was and who did a better job at it, as seen in an article entitled "Why Martin Luther King’s Gospel Was Closer to Jesus Than the Reformers" ( )

For me, what comes to my mind is Hebrews 11 when it comes to faith and how ALOT of the folks in the list---including Samson and Gideon (both of whom were sexually immoral with Samson sleeping with prostitutes and Gideon having a prostitute as well as a golden ephod starting idolatry in Judges 6-8)---it wasn't their actions alone. For the Lord worked IN SPITE Of who they were. I wonder if the same would be true of Whitney...just as it was with others in the past who did alot of corrupt things. If a preacher is off on one area of doctrine, or sins by having an affair or getting drunk or whatever, does that mean his minsitry was not from God? Let's just imagine we took that approach to some of the Old Testament heroes. Gideon heard God. But he did that fleece thing. If we went all 'heretic hunter' on Gideon like some of the websites do with modern preachers, might we not reject him as a pagan? Also, since Gideon collected gold to build an idol, might not a heretic hunter, using the same approach as used with modern preachers, right off his great victory as not being from God?

What about Samson? If we use the same approach to Samson, would we reject his supernatural strength as being from God because he touched a dead animal, slept with a prostitute, sold out his secret to Delilah, and got his hair cut? For more, one can do a good study throughout the Book of I-II Kings and Chronicles to examine the lives of differing kings and how they were of the Lord though some areas were off. Remember the phrase "In all things he loved the Lord, EXCEPT........." (Jehosophat being an example, as well as others)

The same dynamic may be present with Constantine, who had alot of areas where he was nowhere near hitting the mark (even though much of his other works touched people for the Lord).
 
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Gxg (G²)

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yep, and it shows, as scary as it is, that the rest of us have no excuse.

but I think something to keep in mind is that at any time, if any of us bore hatred in our heart, that makes us just as guilty in God's eyes as someone who pulls a trigger. so none of us can judge people like Sts Constantine or Justinian. it's fair enough that you might not feel close to them personally, but I don't wanna be the guy who is before Christ on Judgment Day, and sees someone I slandered at His right hand because I didn't think they were worthy.
Sobering yet real thought...

I think many of us will be surprised by who is...or isn't in Heaven when we arrive..
to piggy back what someone else had brought up, I think someone said the wise thief was made worthy of Paradise in one hour
The Lord can and does do Deathbed conversions---and I'd go even further in suggesting that people can be used of the Lord even when they may not be fully aware of who He is and what He is about.
 
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buzuxi02

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Easy G (G²);60144455 said:
Sobering yet real thought...

I think many of us will be surprised by who is...or isn't in Heaven when we arrive..
The Lord can and does do Deathbed conversions---.


Just in case no one here has yet to say it. Constantine was indeed a deathbed conversion. He was baptised on his deathbed. He only lived a few more days after his baptism refusing to put on the imperial purple robes, wearing his white baptismal robe instead.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think many of us will be surprised by who is...or isn't in Heaven when we arrive..

yep, there is a story as well of a pious Christian ruler who got rid of all classic philosophic learning because the philosophers were pagan. one night in a dream Sophocles appeared and told him that when Christ went to Hades, he was among the first of the pagans to convert. the ruler then allowed the ancient philosophy to be taught again.

so yeah, with the acception of a very few, we really don't know.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Just in case no one here has yet to say it. Constantine was indeed a deathbed conversion. He was baptised on his deathbed. He only lived a few more days after his baptism refusing to put on the imperial purple robes, wearing his white baptismal robe instead.
Intriguing...
 
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Gxg (G²)

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yep, there is a story as well of a pious Christian ruler who got rid of all classic philosophic learning because the philosophers were pagan. one night in a dream Sophocles appeared and told him that when Christ went to Hades, he was among the first of the pagans to convert. the ruler then allowed the ancient philosophy to be taught again.

so yeah, with the acception of a very few, we really don't know.
Would you say, then, that it is impossible for one to know who is not going to Heaven based on actions?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Would you say, then, that it is impossible for one to know who is not going to Heaven based on actions?

for the most part. how do I know that Hitler, before the bullet and cyanide took effect, did not repent of what he did? as St John Chrysostom says, Christ accepts those at the last hour as He does the first. so unless the Church reveals it, like Judas, we really don't know. so even though I might have a good idea about the Hitlers and Stalins and Pol Pots of the world, only God really knows.
 
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Protoevangel

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Easy G (G²);60146246 said:
Would you say, then, that it is impossible for one to know who is not going to Heaven based on actions?
Even the best actions can be done from selfish motivation. The most vile evil can be performed by one who is not mentally culpable for the actions taken. Only God knows the heart.
 
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With the exception of all players past, present, and future, of the San Francisco Giants, you're right, we just don't know who'll be in heaven! ^_^:cool::p

yep, there is a story as well of a pious Christian ruler who got rid of all classic philosophic learning because the philosophers were pagan. one night in a dream Sophocles appeared and told him that when Christ went to Hades, he was among the first of the pagans to convert. the ruler then allowed the ancient philosophy to be taught again.

so yeah, with the acception of a very few, we really don't know.
 
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Ortho_Cat

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So many Saints were ... a "mess".

David, Moses had his moments, and on through the ages.

I recall what on monastic said; God consistently "paints" using broken brushes. Moses was her example - God's spokesman to the Pharaoh was a stutterer.

Looking at the effect Constantine had, despite his brokeness, is a testimony to God's majesty.

and Paul too (back when he was Saul)... :)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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What about Judas? Was it possible for him to be saved in the end in light of how the Lord was able to save/work through Him?


Luke 9
Jesus Sends Out the Twelve

1 When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. 3 He told them: “Take nothing for the journey—no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra shirt. 4 Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town. 5 If people do not welcome you, leave their town and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.” 6 So they set out and went from village to village, proclaiming the good news and healing people everywhere.



Hit me recently, in regards to how Mark 6:7 says that Jesus sent them out two by two, that one of the disciples was paired with Judas since he was one of the 12. And all of them no...t only cast out demons/healed the sick, but proclaimed the Gospel accurately---and yet scripture never seems to say that Judas himself was changed by it. Wondering how wild (and yet, sad in hindsight) it must have been to be the disciple with Judas as a partner---seeing amazing things in ministry/encouraging one another to do what Jesus empowered them to do.......and yet never realize your partner wasn't going to last the journey with you since he wasn't truly changed by a message that changed lives. I wonder what conversations Judas may've had with his partner in ministry....and if there was ever a point his partner asked him how he was REALLY doing rather than assuming it was all good because they preached the same message, as it can be so easy to avoid check-ups with other brothers/sisters in the Lord when you see God working through them.



But with Judas, although he committed suicide, I don't see anywhere that it says he was not saved by the Lord in the end or able to repent. Perhaps I'm missing something..
 
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ArmyMatt

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What about Judas? Was it possible for him to be saved in the end in light of how the Lord was able to save/work through Him?

possible? yes. God always accepts and Judas never lost his free will. however, Christ Himself said it was better for him to have never been born, so I am pretty sure he is damned.
 
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Andrew21091

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The first video is very sad. It struck a nerve when he said that Catholics worship the devil. The most Christian people I've ever known were Roman Catholics. Many Protestants don't believe that they are even Christian (they would lump us in the same category). What does the preacher think Christianity is? What did it look like before Luther? Well, I hate to break it to him, but it looked like Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity. I think this is proven when you look at churches like the Indian Orthodox Church and even more so, the Assyrian Church of the East. They have all the same stuff that the Catholics do. Real presence in the Eucharist, Saint and Mary veneration, Liturgy, etc. What Constantine did was huge, but I don't believe his "paganization" would have stretched over all of Christendom (from Rome to Ethiopia to India) and I think the similarities between the ancient churches that were long separated by geography and culture attest to this.
 
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I agree, Andrew. I find it disgusting how this "are you Catholic or Christian?" stuff comes out of the mouths of my sixth graders when we are learning about Christianity in the Roman Empire. They ask each other stuff like that in the lunch line and I have to explain how absurd that question really is in a nice way! :p:o

The first video is very sad. It struck a nerve when he said that Catholics worship the devil. The most Christian people I've ever known were Roman Catholics. Many Protestants don't believe that they are even Christian (they would lump us in the same category). What does the preacher think Christianity is? What did it look like before Luther? Well, I hate to break it to him, but it looked like Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity. I think this is proven when you look at churches like the Indian Orthodox Church and even more so, the Assyrian Church of the East. They have all the same stuff that the Catholics do. Real presence in the Eucharist, Saint and Mary veneration, Liturgy, etc. What Constantine did was huge, but I don't believe his "paganization" would have stretched over all of Christendom (from Rome to Ethiopia to India) and I think the similarities between the ancient churches that were long separated by geography and culture attest to this.
 
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Ortho_Cat

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I agree, Andrew. I find it disgusting how this "are you Catholic or Christian?" stuff comes out of the mouths of my sixth graders when we are learning about Christianity in the Roman Empire. They ask each other stuff like that in the lunch line and I have to explain how absurd that question really is in a nice way! :p:o

I don't who first started this Christian vs. Catholic dichotomy, but whoever it was did a good job of selling it...I grew up hearing the same thing (Catholics aren't Christian).
 
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This sounds awful for me to say, but sometimes I wonder about our American brethren. When I tell them I'm going to convert to Orthodoxy, the general reply is, "I had no idea you were interested in becoming Jewish?" sigh....

Then the old hillbilly ideas that Catholics worship statues, worship Mary, and all sorts of other stuff still circulate.

My grandpa told me that, when he was engaged to my grandmother (memory eternal), his supervisor on his job down in Long Beach said, "has the priest tried her out yet?" My Grandpa said, "come again?" His reply, "everybody knows that the Catholics all have to have sex with the priest in order to get confirmed. Old tradition they don't tell outsiders."

My grandpa and all of us are still scratching our heads on that little honey!

I don't who first started this Christian vs. Catholic dichotomy, but whoever it was did a good job of selling it...I grew up hearing the same thing (Catholics aren't Christian).
 
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Ortho_Cat

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This sounds awful for me to say, but sometimes I wonder about our American brethren. When I tell them I'm going to convert to Orthodoxy, the general reply is, "I had no idea you were interested in becoming Jewish?" sigh....

Then the old hillbilly ideas that Catholics worship statues, worship Mary, and all sorts of other stuff still circulate.

My grandpa told me that, when he was engaged to my grandmother (memory eternal), his supervisor on his job down in Long Beach said, "has the priest tried her out yet?" My Grandpa said, "come again?" His reply, "everybody knows that the Catholics all have to have sex with the priest in order to get confirmed. Old tradition they don't tell outsiders."

My grandpa and all of us are still scratching our heads on that little honey!

aw man...that's crass :doh: surprised your gpa didn't knock him out! ;) I've heard similar offensive things from my brother, who maintains that i'm a "russian catholic" and there is essentially no difference between the two.
(RC and EO...they all worship mary, etc. etc.)
 
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