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PROTECT JERUSALEM!!!! Some of you may know, but the latest disgrace against Israel is currently being undertaken.
As odd as the March itself is with the characters involved in it, I actually get more humored at those within Jerusalem who may be Zionists against the March for fear of violence....and yet are of the mindset that the Holocaust was necessary for the State of Israel to exist, believing that what happened with the violence was apart of God's plan to establish the nation --Hitler being seen akin as a servant put in power by the Lord..as said Lubavitcher Rebbe’s comparison of Hitler with “God’s servant” Nebuchadnezzer ( 2 Kings 24:1-3, 2 Kings 25, Ezra 5:11-13, Jeremiah 21:6-8 , Jeremiah 25:8-10 , Jeremiah 27:7-9 , Jeremiah 29 , Jeremiah 43:9-11, Ezekiel 29:18-20 Daniel 1-4 )...and others thinking it's the same with other leaders who may be hostile toward Israel currently. For those Messianic Jews who are persecuted by other Jews that don't believe, the Non-Belieing Jews are akin to the false rulers in the times of OT Israel who persecuted prophets before being exiled....and in other camps, as it concerns Arab Christians, they're related to "Ancient Enemies" the Lord wanted wiped out while the Jews were the only ones blessed...and of course, for Palestinian Jews caught in the middle, they're treated as if they are simply the Samaritans who need to be kicked out due to how they're impure just as the Samaritans were considered impure in the days of Christ.



And within all of it, not many seem concerned with what Luke 10:24-39 says on what it means to really be a neighbor to others. But it is interesting to see how things come together.
 
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I was curious as it concerns what was mentioned in the article when it said "4 rabbis from the extreme anti-Zionist Neturei Karta sect were marching with them." More discussed in Radical Jews join anti-Israel Jordan rally - Israel News, Ynetnews and the following:




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Neturei Karta members in Lebanon rally (Photo: Reuters)

600_ntdakndo0fjeiblr4llhuxwquropn0up.jpg

Rabbi Pinchos Feldman (L) and David Feldman of the organisation Jews United Against Zionism join activities near the Jordanian side of the Jordan River to mark Land Day, March 30, 2012. Land Day commemorates the killing by Israeli security forces of six Arabs in 1976 during protests against government plans to confiscate land in northern Israel’s Galilee region.​



The Orthodox Jews known as Neturei Karta have always brought some interesting factors to the mix...and not suprisingly, what occurred on Land Day serves to shake things up..but I was curious as to whether or not they were violent as well. I know that one of the movement leaders told Amman media outlets that they came to support the Palestinians and demonstrate that Judaism is different than Zionism. "We are against Zionism and in favor of the rights of Palestinians," he said. And sure enough, it seems that they were also supporting the Global March to Jerusalem:



And on where others from Neturei Karta have spoken, such as Rabbi Goldstein when he gave a historic overview of Zionism and the creation of the Zionist state, explaining its incompatibility with Judaism from his view:​

 
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aniello

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Great Documentaries, as it concerns the people who often get caught in the cross-fire and are not considered--and good material, as it concerns land issues, discussed best here in the article entitled "Is Jordan Palestine?"








Holocaust Survivor Hedy Epstein Speaks @ FSU Regarding the Israeli Occupation 3/1/12

“It would be my greatest sadness to see Zionists (Jews) do to Palestinian Arabs much of what Nazis did to Jews.”
― Albert Einstein

As the author of "Blood Brothers", said best on the matter:
“ You who live in the United States, if you are pro-Israel, on behalf of the Palestinian children I call unto you: give further friendship to Israel. They need your friendship. But stop interpreting that friendship as an automatic antipathy against me, the Palestinian who is paying the bill for what others have done against my beloved Jewish brothers and sisters in the Holocaust and Auschwitz and elsewhere.

And if you have been enlightened enough to take the side of the Palestinians -- oh, bless your hearts -- take our sides, because for once you will be on the right side, right? But if taking our side would mean to become one-sided against my Jewish brothers and sisters, back up. We do not need such friendship. We need one more common friend. We do not need one more enemy, for God's sake."



I agree with others noting that they're pro-people. For the earliest Christian communities in Palestine were of Jewish descent. Those were joined in the first and second centuries by Greeks. The vast majority of Palestinian Christians followed the Byzantine Christianity of the emperors after the Council of Chalcedon in 451 A.D., and were known by other Syrian Christian as Melkites. The Melkites were heavily Hellenised in the following centuries abandoning their distinct Western Aramaic languages in favour of Greek. By the 7th century, Jerusalem and Palestine became the epicentre of Greek culture in the orient. Soon after the Muslim conquests, the Melkites began abandoning Greek for Arabic, a process which made them the most Arabicised Christians in the Levant. Most Palestinian Christians nowadays see themselves as Arab Christians. In addition, they claim descent from a mixture of Jews who converted to Christianity in the first three centuries AD (also known as Jewish Christians, Byzantine, pre-Islamic Arabs (Ghassanids), Crusaders and Armenians. The region called Israel/Palestine is considered the Holy Land by Christians. Major Christian holy cities such as Bethlehem, Nazareth and Jerusalem are located in Israel and the Palestinian territories.



Around 50% of Palestinian Christians belong to the Orthodox Church of Jerusalem, one of the 16 churches of Eastern Orthodoxy. This community has also been known as the Arab Orthodox Christians. There are also Maronites, Melkite-Eastern Catholics, Jacobites, Chaldeans, Roman Catholics (locally known as Latins), Syriac Catholics, Orthodox Copts, Catholic Copts, Armenian Orthodox and Armenian Catholic. These are the people of Christ and the Apostles.
 
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Yeah....Satmar and Adass etc are pretty much anti-Zionist. They claim all the early haredim were as well, and that Zionism has won over the other sects through emotive appeal etc.
The Satmar Orthodox sect of Judaism and certain other Orthodox Jews, who form the Neturei Karta movement against Zionism, do not support an Israeli state due to its formation by people instead of according to G-d's Messianic prophecy...as they feel the state was made by the hands of man/forced through means counter to God's expressed laws on how to treat aliens/sojourners and not look to military force for security....even though the vast majority of Orthodox Jews (Traditional, Modern, Hasidic Haredi, and non-Hasidic Haredi) do support both Israel and Zionism.

But there is something to be said on how the Zionist movement is largely secular. And I have to give creedence to what other Jews have noted when saying Zionism is NOT the same as Judaism. It is political in nature and has nothing to do with Jewish worship...and many Orthodox Jews completely reject Zionism. For them, they feel that the Lord wanted establish his people when they returned to Him in worship. As most of the people returning did not return in worship and the nation itself is still largely AGNOSTIC---and ironically, using spiritual language of land "promised" to the Jewish people and yet not serving the one who promised the Land---other Jews feel that the Jewish people were meant to remain in exile---and therefore, trying to force a homeland is destined to bring God's judgement (in their view) just as trying to have a nation without God led to their being exiled many times before----be it with the Babylonian exile or the exile after the Second Temple and 70 A.D.

I can definately see where the original Chassidim were coming from, as it concerns their being opposed the Zionist movement because it was men stepping out to try to achieve prophetic fulfillment on their own terms instead of waiting on the timing of YHWH (always a recipe for disaster)---and as wild as it may sound at times, I can definately see why many feel that the present Jewish state is going to be almost entirely wiped out due to their rejection of the Lord...although I think that it's not going to be where all Jewish believers/Jews are harmed. It could easily be akin to the concept of the first return of the Jews being in disbelief--with the second one being what the Lord desired since it may get so bad for the standard Israeli that they will actually turn to YHWH instead of the US, UN and NATO and call out to him for deliverance...leadiing to Messiah, YHWH Yeshua, coming through the clouds---and after seeing him whom they pierced, they may repent of rejecting him, and accept his Kingdom.

But that's just one eschatological view...and apart from that, it's still a significant point that many Jews are not Zionists.

This is from an article from The New York Times on Jews who reject Zionism:
If American Zionists who oppose the West Bank occupation face withering criticism from the conservative part of American Jewry, which has tended to dominate the major communal and lobbying groups, then the unapologetic foes of Zionism in the council are met with apoplexy and indignation.

The rejection of Zion, though, goes back to the Torah itself, with its accounts of the Hebrews’ rebelling against Moses on the journey toward the Promised Land and pleading to return to Egypt. Until Theodore Herzl created the modern Zionist movement early in the 20th century, the biblical injunction to return to Israel was widely understood as a theological construct rather than a pragmatic instruction.

Most Orthodox Jewish leaders before the Holocaust rejected Zionism, saying the exile was a divine punishment and Israel could be restored only in the messianic age. The Reform movement maintained that Judaism is a religion, not a nationality.

“This country is our Palestine,” a Reform rabbi in Charleston, S.C., put it in 1841, “this city our Jerusalem, this house of God our temple.” The Reform movement’s 1885 platform dismissed a “return to Palestine” as a relic akin to animal sacrifice.

Only when the Reform leadership, on the eve of World War II, reversed course did its anti-Zionist faction break away, ultimately forming the council in 1942. Its discourse was simultaneously idealistic and contemptuous — a proposed curriculum in 1952 described Zionism as racist, self-segregated and non-American — and for a time it boasted leaders like Lessing J. Rosenwald, heir to the Sears fortune, and a membership of 14,000.

If the 1967 and 1973 wars shoved the council toward obsolescence, then Israel’s controversial wars since 2000 have brought it back from the grave. One hears echoes of its positions in Tony Judt, the historian who has called for a binational state in Palestine; in Tony Kushner, whose screenplay for the film “Munich” portrayed an Israeli’s true home as America; in Michael Chabon, whose novel “The Yiddish Policeman’s Union” parodied Zionism; and in the emerging disengagement from Israel on the part of young, non-Orthodox Jews, as Peter Beinart noted recently in an essay in The New York Review of Books.

What is numerically true, thus not open to debate, is that only a tiny proportion of American Jews have ever rejected exile here to emigrate to Israel.

“I think we represent a silent majority,” said Allan C. Brownfeld, a longtime member of the council and editor of its magazines, Issues and Special Interest Report. “We are Americans by nationality and Jews by religion. And while we wish Israel well, we don’t view it as our homeland.”

As stated in this article, Zionism was created in the 20th Century by Theodor Herzl. And Herzl's stance has caused damage on several fronts, IMHO. For more, one can look up the following:

Dr. Hajo Meyer delivered his talk, ‘The Misuse of the Holocaust for Political Purposes’ and gave some excellent information...and others have done so as well, especially as it concerns the attempts at being honest about where it was never the case that all who were Jewish were solely in the role of victims/victimized while all other groups were oppressors. That's often not something that is easily discussed, especially in regards to the traditional viewpoints given in history. I'm reminded of how odd it can be for many to come to terms with how the Slave Trade itself was something that many Jews played a significant part in......and yet it's not discussed as much as the Holocaust of the Jews. But that's another issue...and for some good places to go on that, perhaps the best book ever that does an excellent job discussing the good/bad is entitled Jews and the American Slave Trade by Saul S. Friedman. Apart from that, there are other good places one can go..such as here, here, or here or the following:



By no means do I endorse ALL things mentioned by the individuals who spoke, such as Tony Martin--but I do think they had some worthwhile points that needed to be mentioned. From the Talmud (one version) that was used to justify alot of hatred toward Gentiles:

  • When a Jew murders Gentile, there is no death penalty. What a Jew steals from Gentile he may keep (Sanhedrin 57a)
  • All Gentile children are animals (Yebamoth 98a)
  • If Jew is tempted to do evil, he should do evil (Moed Kattan 17a)
  • If Gentile hits Jew, Gentile must be killed. Hitting a Jew is same as hitting God (Sanhedrin 58b)
  • Jews may use lies to circumvent a Gentile (Baba Kamma 113a)
  • Jew need not pay a Gentile any wages (Sanhedrin 57a)
  • Goyim are boiled in hot excrement in hell (Erubin 21b)
Amazing to see some of the things that were used from those passages/others to justify alot of things...but even more surprising is to see how often it seems many deny that anyone Jewish could be as corrupt as people coming against Jewish people as well. We often hear of Anti-Semitism...but rarely will anyone discuss what happens when it goes down in reverse.​



Much of what was noted goes back to the earlier point of how Philio-Semitism is something many are not even aware of as being damaging to the Jewish people just as much as Anti-Semitism....for exalting all things "Jewish" to a level of flawless perfection hinders people from realizing how human all men are....and how all men have their struggles.​
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Interestingly enough, the claim has actually been addressed a number of times when it comes to the claims that Jordan is Palestine, as that's more of a slogan than factual.....even though it is true that others for the logic have valid points when noting how Palestinians have been greatly mistreated in Jordan just as they have been in Israel (seen here and here/here).

Jordanians that are of Palestinian origin, having been forced from their homeland during the 1948 and 1967 wars with Israel, have interesting struggles. Jordan was the only Arab state to grant all Palestinians the right to Jordanian citizenship and many have exercised that option, playing an important part in the political and economic life of Jordan. Some Palestinians continue to live in a number of refugee camps scattered throughout the West Bank and the northern part of Jordan, where the United Nations Relief Works Agency (UNRWA) is responsible for the welfare of the refugees, including their health and education. There are currently close to 1.4 million Palestinian refugees registered in Jordan. Although massive influxes of refugees have strained Jordan’s economy, Palestinian Jordanians have contributed greatly to the health and prosperity of the country.

Nonetheless, for many that may do well, it does not change the reality of those that've suffered...and others have often noted how being in Jordan doesn't mean that Jordan was ever meant to be Palestine.​

For a good review:

"Jordan is Palestine" - Problems and Insights



As much as I disagree with Daniel Pipes on a host of issues, especially in regards to some of the comments he has made on Palestinians and his views on how Israel was founded by Zionists (seen here), there are certain things that I think he has some wisdom on. As another said best on the matter:​

...the facebook group "Jordan = The Real Palestinian State" had 239 members as of yesterday. And then there's this talking head who is trying to be a reputable source. After a long, painful Google search, I found a total of one article that took an academic, contextual approach to this question. One. One article. And it's from 1998, written by Pipes and Garfinkle, refuting these Jordan=Palestine arguments. It's incredible to me that more people aren't responding to these absurdities. Since the work's already been done, allow me to summarize the work here briefly.
The Jordan-is-Palestine argument rests on four arguments: "that Palestine historically included Jordan; that the British-governed Mandate of Palestine included the entire territory of today's Israel and Jordan; that the two regions are geographically indistinguishable; and that Palestinian and Jordanian leaders themselves believe Jordan and Palestine identical."​


Refuting argument 1: Palestine, historically, included Jordan:



Palestine was a concept, not a clearly defined location, and thus various periods included various definitions. In the Torah/Bible, Numbers 34:1-12, the East Bank of the Jordan was NOT a part of Israel/the promised land. Read it, and also consider that Moses saw Palestine from Mt. Nebo rather than entering it, before dying as punishment. He didn't enter the promised land, despite marching all over what we call Jordan. Under various empires, Jordan and Palestine were sometimes jointly administered, sometimes independently of each other. "To take Roman times as an example, the Jordan River initially formed a boundary; after 66 C.E. it did not. Conversely, the first Jewish revolt extended beyond the Jordan, the second ended at the river." Pipes and Garfinkle explain the various Arab empire divisions, concluding that "The territory promised by the Balfour Declaration [by the British in 1917] can justifiably be interpreted as ending at the Jordan River or as extending further."​



Refuting Argument 2: the British Mandate regarded Jordan as Palestine



For 8 glorious months between 1920 and 1921. But, in 1921, Churchill, who was directing Britain's colonies at the time, created the Emirate of Transjordan and gave rulership to Abdullah, great-grandfather of the current king. So yes, for eight months the Brits found it convenient for their colonial purposes to put Palestine and Jordan together. And then promptly did an about-face, setting up the independent state we have and love today. So Jordan is Palestine in the same way that Ohio is the Northwest Territory (but about five years briefer).​



Refuting Argument 3: Jordan and Palestine are Identical Culturally



In this section, Pipes and Garfinkle talk about the Jordan River as a traditionally large, natural border, difficult to cross in the days before Syrian and Israeli irrigation. I think it's even more important to note, though, that Palestinians and Jordanians certainly do not regard themselves as the same. Check out anything on Jordan's Palestinian relations these days for evidence. And, of course, even if they had at one time been the same, decades of administrative differences as a result of colonial line-drawing means that even historical sameness is now regarded in a statist fashion. That is to say, Syria and Lebanon were once one cultural unit; now, not so much. No one has suggested uniting them. In short, culturally and as far the people's identity, Jordan is Palestine in about the same way that Canada is the USA.​



Refuting Argument 4: Mutual Claims from Palestinians and Jordanians



The PLO in 1971, and again in 1972, declared that it wanted one government in Palestine and Transjordan. Which at that time, made sense - King Hussain was claiming administrative control of the West Bank, in absence of any effective government there. And indeed, all of the Arab world was using rhetoric like this, that all Arabs were in fact one nation. King Hussain did indeed assert in 1981, as J-is-P folks love to remind us, that "Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan."​


As Pipes and Garfinkle discuss, this means that he intended for Jordan to be a prime advocate and defender of Palestinians, as a sympathizer with Palestinians, and as a nation with many Palestinian residents. His last word on the topic? In 1988, Hussain said: "Jordan is not Palestine." Meaning, we are not the same people, we are not the same government, and we relinquish any claim to administering Palestinian territory.​



Context, guys. It's magical. History - it's informative. And common sense is vital and underused, especially with regard to this conflict.​


There are practical ways that may be more appropriate in dealing with the situation...and personally, I think one of them would be for having the creation of a three-state solution, also called the Egyptian-Jordanian solution, and the Jordan-Egypt option, by giving control of the West Bank to Jordan and control of the Gaza Strip to Egypt. The three-state solution essentially replicates the situation that existed between the 1949 Armistice Agreements and the 1967 Six-Day War. Beginning in 1949, Egypt occupied the Gaza Strip, Jordan occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and no Palestinian Arab state existed

Demographics may make the issue of a One State, Two State or Three State solution a bit sticky since it can change rapidly depending on the increased development of a group...but a Three-STATE solution seems reasonable on some levels. As seen in a September 2008 publication of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, as Giora Eiland wrote:
This proposal suggests that rather than establishing another Arab state, the parties could return control over most of the West Bank to Jordan. Until recently, such an idea was rejected completely by everyone, especially the Jordanians themselves. Today, however, more and more Jordanians, Palestinians, and Israelis have come to believe that this is the right solution. The main reason for this change of heart is the rise of Hamas. Israel can curb the group’s ascendancy, but only as long as Israel occupies the West Bank. If a Palestinian state is established there, many fear that it would be taken over by Hamas. Such a scenario could have far-reaching consequences for Jordan. To be sure, the notion of pursuing alternative solutions is not yet politically correct, and therefore no official Jordanian or Palestinian support could be given to such efforts at the moment. Nevertheless, tacit support for this idea has been expressed in private talks.
During the parliamentary election, Jordanian politicians expressed fears that if the 2010 Israeli-Palestinian direct talks broke down and the Palestinian Authority collapsed, Jordan would be forced to re-absorb the West Bank and grant citizenship to its residents...and concern was also expressed that Israel may prefer this solution over the traditional two-state solution. Jordan, which already has Palestinian majority, would be further cemented as a de facto Palestinian state. That is not something that many are for.....and I agree that trying to say "Jordan is Palestine" doesn't seem to cut it, IMHO.


Last November, Israel's hard-line foreign minister has praised Jordan and condemned talk of it becoming the Palestinian state. At Israel's parliament , Avigdor Lieberman said, "Talk about Jordan as a Palestinian state damages Israel." He praised the neighboring country as a "stabilizing element in the region." Palestinians make up about half of Jordan's population. A fringe minority of Israelis believe a Palestinian state should be founded there. A Lieberman spokesman said he has never said Jordan should be the Palestinian state....more shared here.


What perplexes many is that talk of "Jordan is Palestine" comes after the decades-long political assumption that an independent Palestinian state would be part and parcel of any future peace agreement. At one point, Palestinian statehood seemed a common realization, one that even the U.S. and Israel finally came to terms with. Now, U.S. and Israeli leaders, many of them elected officials or holding senior government positions, openly make public statements not only dismissing right to exist as a people in certain areas.


Shalom...
 
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There was an excellent magazine on the issue that had some good insights, called How Would a One-State Israel & Palestine Work? - Tikkun Magazine, concerning exploring the reasons why there often doesn't seem to be comfortability with others having a One-State dynamic in motion...and on others showing the situation in Israel:



And for anyone interested, an interesting article that had many good insights on many of the conflicts within Israel..and practical ways of dealing with them. In their words:
Isaac posted along the subject very near and dear to my heart, Israel. He highlighted the New York Times article about non-violent resistance (which isn't the only example -- here's Palestinians dressed as the Na'vi), and asks the sage question:
I believe that violence against civilians is inexcusable and violence against the IDF is counterproductive if peace is what you're aiming for... but when the Palestinians lay down their weapons, what happens then? Is Israel really going to go "ah yes, here's the West Bank in its pre-1967 state, including all that water we use for our farms"? I hope so, but I doubt it.

The question is, is non-violence going to work for Palestinians? What's the end-game here?


This all is close to my heart because I am an Israeli-American. My family left Israel when I was a little baby, partially because my father was serving in the Israeli military at the time that the First Lebanon War was going on. With that in mind, my parents did not want my brother or myself serving in the Israeli military when we grew up; they also thought there might be better opportunities in the US, Australia, or Canada. The US was the place where my dad was first able to get a job and a visa, so that's where we went.


Isaac is right that Palestinians are increasingly seeking non-violent paths to protest. The Times and, of course, the Israeli government are downplaying the extent to which the violence has declined in the West Bank. Back at the height of the Second Intifada, when right-wing leaders Ariel Sharon and Yassir Arafat were facing off, car and bus bombings in Jerusalem would happen multiple times a year. According to the Israeli Foreign Ministry, the number in the peak year (2002) was 55. This year it was 1. (The validity of the numbers isn't necessarily important; even Israel, whose bias would be to inflate the numbers, only count 1 this year).


The main thrust of this has to do with the little-commented on battle between Fatah and Hamas that, by the end of 2007, left Hamas with unilateral control over Gaza, and Fatah with almost unilateral control of the West Bank. Fatah, who may be corrupt up to their neck, have taken a fairly good-faith approach to negotiations; Hamas continues to call for the eradication of Israel.


However, you'll notice that the title of the New York Times article is "Palestinians Try a Less Violent Path to Resistance." Not "West Bank Palestinians Try a Less Violent Path to Resistance." Currently, Israeli and Western policy ties the future of the West Bank and Gaza together. In practice, what that means is that Israel can't reward the non-violence in the West Bank if rockets are still falling on Israel from Gaza (in December 2009, it had been over 500 rockets and 200 mortar shells since the Gaza operation, according to Israel's internal security)


Here's the thing, though: in Gaza, the problem is the Qassam rockets. Qassam are not much more sophisticated than fire-works: they're basically a tube full of gunpowder. Note that for all the rockets launched, the death toll (according to Wikipedia) has not been what you might call at war-levels. At the end of the day, Qassam rockets are just high-stress versions of knifings (or ax attacks). It takes one or two individuals sneaking to the Gaza border, shooting off a rocket, and scattering. Looking at the numbers, there is a clear difference between Hamas encouraging violence and Hamas deciding to lay low. But it's not a situation in which even Hamas could fully end the rocket attacks if they were trying.


But suppose that Hamas is fully responsible for the Qassam. The Palestinians in the West Bank certainly are not. At this point, the blockade has largely separated the populations of the two; they are administered separately, have different leadership structures that don't talk to each other -- by any measure you could think to choose, they are two separate regions. Except, of course, race and religion.


The right-wing fringe, which have undue influence on Israel (they control the Interior Ministry, who control the expansion of settlements, and the Foreign Ministry) and control Gaza, can create a cycle of violence that is mutually beneficial to both fringes; measurably, both Israel and Gaza continue their steady march to the right politically. Currently, Israel's major right wing, center left wing, and the largest third party all are led by people who used to be part of the right wing party (Likud). That would be as though the Republican, Democratic, and Green parties where all led by former Republican party members and operatives.


Because of this cycle, any time that the non-violent protesters in the West Bank might make any progress, Gaza increases the rockets a little, and then Israeli tanks move in, and we're back at square one. Never mind that the West Bank has created a stable and peaceful infrastructure that polices itself (after all, they drove out Hamas) and has created meaningful (if weak) economic growth. So long as Hamas refuses to recognize Israel, there will be no peace.


So here's my solution. It's a three state solution. If Gaza and the West Bank are administered separately, then Israel should propose a good-faith peace negotiation with the Palestinian Authority that treats Gaza as a separate entity. That means a settlement freeze, withdrawal to 1967-borders-or-similar (in the West bank), tearing down the West Bank Barrier, and Jerusalem as a joint capital on the table. Unlike Isaac, I don't know if Israel needs to give up the right-of-return (although it can't keep the question completely closed before negotiations begin), but at the very least it needs to create some sort of compensation system.


As peace progresses, Hamas should regularly be given the option of laying down arms and conducting a referendum on whether or not to rejoin the West Bank as a unified state. If Gaza chooses to join the peace process as a separate entity from the West Bank, let them; so long as they are peaceful, there is no need to broker a unity government between them and Fatah. This removes the fear from Hamas that if they join the peace process, they will be forced to concede power to Fatah.


From the people of Gaza's perspective, they can watch the West Bank. If the West Bank achieves meaningful concessions from Israel, gets some level of autonomy, economic growth, territorial integrity, and even some of the big dreams like shared control of Jerusalem, than Hamas' argument that Israel is operating in bad faith will be seriously eroded, and Gazans may start to realize that they can join the process, and Hamas' support will be eroded as well. Gaza will turn the tide of extremism, and start to follow the path of non-violence.


This is all a pipe-dream, however. The problem right now is that Hamas' argument that Israel is operating in bad faith is true. And I fear that Israel's intentions will only worsen in the near future. They are not thinking strategically about how to approach security; they are only responding to threats in increasingly blunt and harmful ways. Humiliating diplomats, stealing passports to assassinate people in other countries, repeatedly timing announcements of settlement increases to humiliate our VP and our President -- it is clear that the Netenyahu government is not after peace. And the only major alternative is the group of people who brought you Operation Cast Lead.
 
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How many here have seen the "Palestinian refugee camp?"

They are Not camps, No dirt roads, No tents, No fences or gates or guards. They are full-blown permanent autonomous towns, some even cities.
They are municipalities with utilities and self governance. The PLO has been given (and still are) literally billions of $$ by the US and Israel. What these towns do or do not have is due to how much of the $$ the PLO leadership has kept fro themselves and how much they have released to their people. It is very effective in keeping the animus toward Israel alive and vitriolic to keep the common Arab poor. Those common people (and the world media) believe their leadership that the "evil Jews" are keeping them poverty stricken. The majority of Arabs, Palestinian or otherwise, even college educated Arabs, believe the Protocols of Zion, that vile anti-Semitic fictional trash, is in fact true - every last word including the Blood Libel.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}
 
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Gxg (G²)

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How many here have seen the "Palestinian refugee camp?"

They are Not camps, No dirt roads, No tents, No fences or gates or guards. They are full-blown permanent autonomous towns, some even cities.

They are municipalities with utilities and self governance. The PLO has been given (and still are) literally billions of $$ by the US and Israel. What these towns do or do not have is due to how much of the $$ the PLO leadership has kept fro themselves and how much they have released to their people. It is very effective in keeping the animus toward Israel alive and vitriolic to keep the common Arab poor. Those common people (and the world media) believe their leadership that the "evil Jews" are keeping them poverty stricken.

The majority of Arabs, Palestinian or otherwise, even college educated Arabs, believe the Protocols of Zion, that vile anti-Semitic fictional trash, is in fact true - every last word including the Blood Libel.
Actually had solid friends visit the camps and see for themselves just how poor many of them are--and how dangerous life can be for others. Of course, with finances, there is alot misused by leadership in Palestinian circles...just as there can be abuse in Jewish leadership. All are guilty to one level or another. And when much of the money is indeed used for simple medical treatment and trying to catch up on things exaceberated by one side, that's an issue


Never has it been at any point where all Palestinian people believe all Palestinian leaders are innocent, just as it has never been the case that all Israelis believe Israeli leadership is pure/innocent and without fault..and it has never been the case that there have never been anything done on the part of Israel that's worth getting people a bit upset....especially as it concerns homes destoryed/people labeled as "terrorist" simply because they're Palestinian...or racist comments that say Palestinians are not a people.


The same goes for claims (unsubtantiated) that all Arabs as a majority believe in the foolishness that is Protocols of Zion (used by the Nazis ) since there are significant majorities that have never suscribed to the ideology that tries to proclaim there's a Jewish plan for global domination---and never came close to even thinking what others did with being against Jewish people. To say such is not based on fact, on the same level as saying all Jews are automatically for the belief that the Israeli state is flawless and that all Jews will be saved regardless of what they may do simply due to their Jewish heritage.


Sadly, there is a bit of reverse discrimination when others assume nearly all Arabs want Global domination/Jews killed as well. And that's just as corrupt.



For those Jews who lived with Palestinians and had peace with them, it can be awkward for them since they don't see all Palestinians as in error. However, they may not take as much heat as those who are considered to be "half-breeds" .... mistreated and still are villified Jewish people as well as Arabs.













As teacher/scholar Tony Malouf (of Lebonese descent) said in his book entitled "Arabs in the Shadow of Israel", one doesn't have to "hate/curse an Arab in order to love a Jew"--and it often seems that in the process of trying to avoid anything anti-semitic, people often end up adopting an Anti-Arab stance in the process that's just as deadly...for just because something is Pro-Semitic doesn't mean its truly Pro-Yeshua (who condemned many attitudes tolerated by his own people and praised things in groups outside of His people. Jews and Arabs are BLOOD brothers..always have been, always will be, by God's Design---and they were meant to work together. Thank goodness for those who do so in peace...There is NO basis whatsoever to say that all Arabs (even in the majority) are Anti-Semitic--as that's no more demonstrated than saying all Blacks hate Whites.
 
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yedida

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Another, from Golda Meir:

"We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children; we can not forgive them for forcing us to kill their's. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us."

Statement to the National Press Club in Washington, D. C. in 1957, as quoted in A Land of Our Own : An Oral Autobiography (1973) edited by Marie Syrkin, p. 242

It's as true today as it was then. ;,,(


b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Very wise lady. Too bad there are so few wise people in this crazy world.
 
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I'll look into it more so when I have the chance, as well as ask some of my friends on it who've worked with Israelis/Palestinians..one of whom just got back and that I was blessed to talk to last night (As she lived in Egypt and Israel working with Arabs/Jews for some time after finishing up her internship at the House of Prayer in Cartersville).

Have you been to it personally and how did you come across it? And why do you recommend it? If and when you have time, would love to hear your thoughts on that. But till then, blessings/shalom:)
 
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