St. Patrick kept the 7th Day Sabbath!

Revelation 14:6-12 · Mar 25, 2012

Revelation 14:6-12 said:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7641630-16/#post60102783

God only codified them in Stone at Mt. Sinai. Yet each of the Ten Commandments can be found before Mt. Sinai in the Old Testament... [evidence upon request]

LittleLambofJesus said:
Please do provide for me. Thanks...

Born before the Codified Law of Ten Commandments of Mt. Sinai:

Some have said that there was no Law before Mt. Sinai and will quote [Romans 4:15, 5:13-14], but let us look at the texts themselves and see if this be so:

"Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression." [Romans 4:15]

"(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." [Romans 5:13];

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." [Romans 5:14]

There are many who misapply those verses to teach that the Ten Commandments Law was not known before Mt. Sinai, but those texts do not say such, let us show sin was known, and judgment.

Paul is simply saying that there indeed was transgression before Mt. Sinai and the codification of the Ten Commandments into Stone Tables, for Paul verily shows that there was sin in the world before Mt. Sinai [and since sin, which is transgression [1 John 3:4], there was God's Law to transgress, having sinned in diverse manners], and all are unrighteous [Psalms 14:3, 53:3; Romans 3:10,12].

Paul says that if there were no Law beforehand then there could have been no transgression and no sin, for in order to be a transgressor [sinner], there must of necessity be something such as the Law of God to transgress.

All were under the wrath of God, being "by nature the children of wrath, even as others" [Ephesians 2:3;p] and "condemned already" [John 3:18;p], for the "wrath of God" commeth upon all "the children of disobedience" [Colossians 3:6; Ephesisans 2:2, 5:6;p].

Those who were born before the "written [codified] law in stone tables" entered were still accountable to God, for He had made Adam in His "image" after God's "likeness", and so even as Paul and scripture clearly reveal that there was indeed "sin" [transgression of the law; 1 John 3:4] in the world before Mt. Sinai, and there were those men who knew that to transgress their conscience and resist the Holy Spirit who had continually pled with them, in their heart, was to be greivous sin...

God originally made man in His image, with the law written upon the heart. However, after many hundreds of years and continual transgression:

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually." [Genesis 6:5]

... it was being lost and erased from the heart of man through that continual transgression and refusal of the Holy Spirit to repent. They continually violated their God-given conscience and they grieved away the Holy Spirit:

"...My spirit shall not always strive with man..." [Genesis 6:3;p]

Thus the tables of stone entered that none may have excuse and the Jews, chosen of by God, were to be the Light in the world, taking His salvation and law to others, but they, even as we, have continaully transgressed and failed.

There are many examples in the accounts of Genesis, before Mt. Sinai, of those who knew what sin was:

"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." [Genesis 4:7]

"But the men of Sodom [were] wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly." [Genesis 13:13]

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" [2 Peter 3:4]

"And it was so, when the days of [their] feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings [according] to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually." [Job 1:5];

"In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly." [Job 1:22];

"Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die." [Job 2:9];

"But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." [Job 2:10]

"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." [Genesis 26:5]

"And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;" [Genesis 18:20]

"But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou [art but] a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she [is] a man's wife." [Genesis 20:3];

"But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?" [Genesis 20:4];

"Said he not unto me, She [is] my sister? and she, even she herself said, He [is] my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this." [Genesis 20:5];

"And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her." [Genesis 20:6]

"And Jacob was wroth, and chode with Laban: and Jacob answered and said to Laban, What [is] my trespass? what [is] my sin, that thou hast so hotly pursued after me?" [Genesis 31:36]

"And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD [is] righteous, and I and my people [are] wicked." [Exodus 9:27];

"And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants." [Exodus 9:34];

"Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste; and he said, I have sinned against the LORD your God, and against you." [Exodus 10:16]

"Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place [such] over them, [to be] rulers of thousands, [and] rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:" [Exodus 18:21]

"Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;" [Hebrews 11:25]

"And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I [am] the LORD that healeth thee." [Exodus 15:26]

"Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no." [Exodus 16:4];

"And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?" [Exodus 16:28]

"How long"? This would be such a silly question from God if he had just supposedly gave it to them and they had never ever knew about that commandment before that moment - never ever hearing of the 7th day at all from Genesis onward through the patriarchs [Genesis 18:19; 2 Peter 2:5; etc]?

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." [Romans 5:19]

Think about that text in what it implies in both directions.

Now we can then come to the Ten Commandments and the evidence of their transgression and knowledge before Mt. Sinai...

Albion · Mar 25, 2012

"Revelation 14," that's too colorful and gigantic for me to want to wade through, so I'll go back to TruthWave's comment here:

How is it, that you and others on this topic, refuse to confess that St. Patrick kept the 7th day Sabbath hundreds of years after the death of Jesus? Do you deny the solid biblical and historical basis for Patrick keeping the Sabbath? Even Catholic historians back up the SDA position on this issue. Do you think that the Catholic historians would have said that St. Patrick kept the Sabbath to bolster the SDA position on this issue? I don't think so! It proves that Patrick didn't go along with tradition if Rome during his time. This fact alone, explodes the idea that the Sabbath was done away with at the cross. If that was the case someone should have told St. Patrick about that!

Patrick may or may not have kept the Sabbath, but 1)it wasn't because he was defying anything ordered by Rome, and as far as exploding any idea that the Sabbath was done away with at the cross, that means 2)that it became a dead issue at the start of the new era of Grace, not that no one can be found who chose to continue in the old ways even so.

listed · Mar 25, 2012

Revelation 14:6-12 said:
Born before the Codified Law of Ten Commandments of Mt. Sinai:

Some have said that there was no Law before Mt. Sinai and will quote [Romans 4:15, 5:13-14], but let us look at the texts themselves and see if this be so:

"Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression." [Romans 4:15]

"(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." [Romans 5:13];

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." [Romans 5:14]

There are many who misapply those verses to teach that the Ten Commandments Law was not known before Mt. Sinai, but those texts do not say such, let us show sin was known, and judgment.

Paul is simply saying that there indeed was transgression before Mt. Sinai and the codification of the Ten Commandments into Stone Tables, for Paul verily shows that there was sin in the world before Mt. Sinai [and since sin, which is transgression [1 John 3:4], there was God's Law to transgress, having sinned in diverse manners], and all are unrighteous [Psalms 14:3, 53:3; Romans 3:10,12].

Paul says that if there were no Law beforehand then there could have been no transgression and no sin, for in order to be a transgressor [sinner], there must of necessity be something such as the Law of God to transgress.

All were under the wrath of God, being "by nature the children of wrath, even as others" [Ephesians 2:3;p] and "condemned already" [John 3:18;p], for the "wrath of God" commeth upon all "the children of disobedience" [Colossians 3:6; Ephesisans 2:2, 5:6;p].

Those who were born before the "written [codified] law in stone tables" entered were still accountable to God, for He had made Adam in His "image" after God's "likeness", and so even as Paul and scripture clearly reveal that there was indeed "sin" [transgression of the law; 1 John 3:4] in the world before Mt. Sinai, and there were those men who knew that to transgress their conscience and resist the Holy Spirit who had continually pled with them, in their heart, was to be greivous sin...

God originally made man in His image, with the law written upon the heart. However, after many hundreds of years and continual transgression:

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually." [Genesis 6:5]

... it was being lost and erased from the heart of man through that continual transgression and refusal of the Holy Spirit to repent. They continually violated their God-given conscience and they grieved away the Holy Spirit:

"...My spirit shall not always strive with man..." [Genesis 6:3;p]

Thus the tables of stone entered that none may have excuse and the Jews, chosen of by God, were to be the Light in the world, taking His salvation and law to others, but they, even as we, have continaully transgressed and failed.

There are many examples in the accounts of Genesis, before Mt. Sinai, of those who knew what sin was:

"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." [Genesis 4:7]

"But the men of Sodom [were] wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly." [Genesis 13:13]

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" [2 Peter 3:4]

"And it was so, when the days of [their] feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings [according] to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually." [Job 1:5];

"In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly." [Job 1:22];

"Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die." [Job 2:9];

"But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." [Job 2:10]

"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." [Genesis 26:5]

"And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;" [Genesis 18:20]

"But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou [art but] a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she [is] a man's wife." [Genesis 20:3];

"But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?" [Genesis 20:4];

"Said he not unto me, She [is] my sister? and she, even she herself said, He [is] my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this." [Genesis 20:5];

"And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her." [Genesis 20:6]

"And Jacob was wroth, and chode with Laban: and Jacob answered and said to Laban, What [is] my trespass? what [is] my sin, that thou hast so hotly pursued after me?" [Genesis 31:36]

"And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD [is] righteous, and I and my people [are] wicked." [Exodus 9:27];

"And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants." [Exodus 9:34];

"Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste; and he said, I have sinned against the LORD your God, and against you." [Exodus 10:16]

"Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place [such] over them, [to be] rulers of thousands, [and] rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:" [Exodus 18:21]

"Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;" [Hebrews 11:25]

"And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I [am] the LORD that healeth thee." [Exodus 15:26]

"Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no." [Exodus 16:4];

"And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?" [Exodus 16:28]

"How long"? This would be such a silly question from God if he had just supposedly gave it to them and they had never ever knew about that commandment before that moment - never ever hearing of the 7th day at all from Genesis onward through the patriarchs [Genesis 18:19; 2 Peter 2:5; etc]?

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." [Romans 5:19]

Think about that text in what it implies in both directions.

Now we can then come to the Ten Commandments and the evidence of their transgression and knowledge before Mt. Sinai...

Nice collection of Scriptures. Can't you please do just a few at a time? I got lost in your long barrage.

I think you need to read the whole verse if I John 3:4. It does say that transgression is exclusively sin but also transgresses the law. I wonder why the law people have such a problem with this verse.

Revelation 14:6-12 · Mar 25, 2012

listed said:
Nice collection of Scriptures. Cna't you please do just a few at a time? I got lost in you long barrage.

I think you need to read the whole verse if I John 3:4. It does say that transgression is exclusively sin but

listed said:
also transgresses the law. I wonder why the law people have such a problem with this verse.

Indeed, "also". There is only a problem for those who think that there is no law to transgress anymore, but the "also", negates that idea.

Other scriptural definitions of what sin is:

"...for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin." (Romans 14:23; partial) [See and Compare Matthew 23:23]

"All unrighteousness is sin..." (1 John 5:17; partial) [See and Compare Psalms 119:172]

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin." (James 4:17) [See and Compare Romans 7:12]

Therefore, every sin is "also" transgression of the Law.

Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4

Notice, the "whosoever" part as well... not just a "jewish" thing [Ecclesiastes 12:13].

Even before mankind was formed, (Lucifer, then to become known as Satan) sinned in Heaven. And what is sin according to the very scriptures?

“Sin is the transgression of the law” (1 John 3:4;p).

And what sins had Satan committed and were even pointed out by JESUS? Satan was a “murderer” (John 8:44) and “abode not in the truth” (John 8:44).

According to the scriptures what is this “murder” that Satan had done (and continues to do)?

It is the Transgression of the very 6th Commandment (“Thou shalt not Kill (Murder)” Exodus 20:13).

And what is the “Truth” that Satan chose not to abide in according to the very scriptures?

“Thy Law [is] the Truth” (Psalms 119:142),
“All thy Commandments [are] Truth” (Psalms 119:151),
“Thy Word is Truth” (John 17:17),
“A GOD of Truth” (Deuteronomy 32:4),
“(JESUS said) I AM the Truth” (John 14:6),
“The (HOLY) SPIRIT is Truth” (1 John 5:6),
“All the paths of the LORD are Mercy and Truth unto them that Keep HIS Covenant and HIS Testimonies” (Psalms 25:10).

Why then did Satan “Murder”?

Because he “coveted” (and “lusts” John 8:44) in his heart to take and steal that which is not his to have, “I will...” (Isaiah 14:13-14; Ezekiel 28:2,6) and thus sinned breaking the very 8th and 10th Commandments (“Thou shalt not steal ...Thou shalt not covet...” Exodus 20:15,17).

In his own heart he set himself up as GOD “I will be like the Most High” (Isaiah 14:13-14; Ezekiel 28:2,6), served himself and thus sinned breaking the very 1st, 2nd and 3rd Commandments (“...Thou shalt have no other gods before me. ...neither bow down thyself and serve them...not take the name of the LORD thy GOD in vain...&#8221 (Exodus 20:3,5,7).

And so he dishonored his FATHER in Heaven (and he became “the father” (John 8:44) of “the children of disobedience” (Ephesians 2:2, 5:6; Colossians 3:6)) and thus sinned breaking the very 5th Commandment (“Honour thy Father...&#8221 (Exodus 20:12).

In breaking with GOD, and seeking after himself, he not only committed Idolatry but also Adultery and unfaithfulness and thus sinned breaking the very 7th Commandment (“Thou shalt not commit adultery&#8221 (Exodus 20:14).

He led 1/3 of the other angels in Heaven in rebellion and disobedience (Revelation 12:4) because he delighted to “speaketh a lie” (John 8:44) and thus sinned breaking the very 9th Commandment (“Thou shalt not bear false witness...&#8221 (Exodus 20:16).

And so even in breaking one Commandment of GOD, Satan has broken them all (“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.&#8221 (James 2:10).

Even above all of this sin and rebellion against GOD, there was finally “war in heaven” (Revelation 12:7) and thus the Peace, the Rest of Heaven (the Peace, Love, Joy, Trust, Faith, Obedience, etc.) was broken, and so Satan sinned...and continues to do so, and teaches as many others as he can to do so, knowing full well his own recompense; “for the wages of sin [is] death” (Romans 6:23; Ezekiel 26:21, 28:18-19) and theirs (2 Thessalonians 1:8; Revelation 21:8).

James is absolutely right and so bears repeating “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.” (James 2:10)

Satan was once Lucifer, the cherub that coverth the very throne of God, he was closest to the very Law of God, and was at one time its guardian.

Lysimachus · Mar 25, 2012

listed said:
Sophia 7 already covered this in a couple posts early in the thread.

She hasn't convinced me. Her data has never compelled me.

It's called "picking at straws", and trying to take people's minds away from the "big controversy picture".

At any rate, the point is: There is ample proof that the Celtic Church did observe the Sabbath.

Here is more overwhelming proof:
St. Patrick Kept the Biblical Sabbath!

But let's assume the Celts did not. There is overwhelming proof of Sabbath keeping Christians scattered all throughout Europe. Even the Pope called these "Sabbatarians", "preachers of Antichrist" in the 6th century A.D.

Have you watched The Seventh Day Series narrated by Hal Holbrook?

I would watch the whole thing if I were you. I would also read the book "Truth Triumphant" by Benjamin G. Wilkinson.
http://www.sabbathtruth.com/portals/20/documents/Truth_Triumphant.pdf

Revelation 14:6-12 · Mar 25, 2012

Revelation 14:6-12 said:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7641630-17/#post60106557 ...Now we can then come to the Ten Commandments and the evidence of their transgression and knowledge before Mt. Sinai... http://www.christianforums.com/t7641630-17/#post60106662

For a Reference:

The TEN COMMANDMENTS codified in Two Tables Of Sapphire Stone at Mt. Sinai:

[01] I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. [Exodus 20:2] Thou shalt have no other gods before me. [Exodus 20:3]

[02] Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: [Exodus 20:4] Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; [Exodus 20:5] And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. [Exodus 20:6]

[03] Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. [Exodus 20:7]

[04] Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. [Exodus 20:8] Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: [Exodus 20:9] But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates: [Exodus 20:10] For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. [Exodus 20:11]

[05] Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. [Exodus 20:12]

[06] Thou shalt not kill. [Exodus 20:13]

[07] Thou shalt not commit adultery. [Exodus 20:14]

[08] Thou shalt not steal. [Exodus 20:15]

[09] Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. [Exodus 20:16]

[10] Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that [is] thy neighbour's. [Exodus 20:17]

The TEN COMMANDMENTS given again from the lips of Moses, spoken before the Promised Land:

[01] [Deuteronomy 5:6-7]

[02] [Deuteronomy 5:8-10]

[03] [Deuteronomy 5:11]

[04] [Deuteronomy 5:12-15]

[05] [Deuteronomy 5:16]

[06] [Deuteronomy 5:17]

[07] [Deuteronomy 5:18]

[08] [Deuteronomy 5:19]

[09] [Deuteronomy 5:20]

[10] [Deuteronomy 5:21]

The TEN COMMANDMENTS of the New Testament:

[01] [Matthew 4:10][Mark 12:30][Luke 10:27] [1 Corinthians 8:5-6]

[02] [1 John 5:21][Acts 15:20, 17:29][1 Corinthians 10:7,14, 12:2][2 Corinthians 6:16][1 Thessalonians 1:9][Galatians 5:20-21][Ephesians 5:5][Colossians 3:5][1 Peter 4:3][Revelation 2:14,20, 9:20, 21:18, 22:15]

[03] [Matthew 12:36][Romans 2:24][Colossians 3:8][Ephesians 5:4][1 Timothy 6:1][Revelation 16:9]

[04] [Matthew 12:8,12, 24:20][Mark 1:21, 2:27-28, 3:4, 6:2, 16:1][Luke 4:16,31, 6:5-6, 13:10,15-16, 14:1, 23:56][John 5:9, 9:14][Acts 4:24, 13:14-16,42,44, 14:15, 15:21, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4,11][Hebrews 4:4-11][Revelation 1:10, 10:6, 14:7; etc]

[05] [Matthew 15:4, 19:19][Mark 7:10, 10:19][Luke 18:20][Ephesians 6:1-3][Colossians 3:20]

[06] [Matthew 5:21-22, 19:18][Mark 10:19][Luke 18:20][Romans 1:29,32, 13:9][James 2:11]

[07] [Matthew 5:27-28,32, 19:18][Mark 10:11-12,19][Luke 16:18, 18:20][Romans 13:9][Colossians 3:18-19][James 2:11][2 Peter 2:14]

[08] [Matthew 19:18][Mark 10:19, 12:17][Luke 18:20][Romans 2:21, 13:9][Ephesians 4:28]

[09] [Matthew 15:9, 19:18][Mark 10:19][Luke 18:20][Romans 13:9][Colossians 3:9]

[10] [Matthew 6:19][Mark 7:22-23][Luke 12:15][Romans 1:29,32, 7:7, 13:9][Ephesians 5:3][Colossians 3:5][Hebrews 13:5][2 Peter 2:14]

The TEN COMMANDMENTS known from the Beginning [passages to consider]:

[01] [Genesis 3:5,17, 24:48, 35:2-4]

[02] [Genesis 35:2-4]

[03] [Genesis 3:6, 9:26, 24:27][Job 1:5, 2:9-10][Exodus 5:2]

[04] [Genesis 2:2-3, 26:5][Exodus 5:4-5, 15:26, 16:4,23-30][Exodus 16 takes place 2 weeks before Mt. Sinai]

[05] [Genesis 2:16-17, 9:22-24, 27:8,13,43, 49:2]

[06] [Genesis 2:17, 3:1,4,6,19, 4:5-10, 49:6]

[07] [Genesis 2:24, 12:15,17-19, 18:20, 20:3-9,18, 39:9-10, 49:4]

[08] [Genesis 3:6, 31:19,30,32,34,36-37, 44:4-9]

[09] [Genesis 3:1,4, 4:9, 27:12,19,24,31]

[10] [Genesis 3:6, 20:11, 37:11][Exodus 18:21][Hebrews 11:25]

etc...

Judgments of the world and the flood... wickedness, etc... Tower of Babel...

Lysimachus · Mar 25, 2012

listed said:
Great. Now cut and paste the revelant parts of that professor. I won't argue something that isn't here. A refenence to something doesn't preenent any contents.

Professor?

I wrote that article btw, not a professor.
Is the Seal of God the Holy Spirit or the Law?

listed · Mar 25, 2012

Revelation 14:6-12 said:
Indeed, "also". There is only a problem for those who think that there is no law to transgress anymore, but the "also", negates that idea.

Other scriptural definitions of what sin is:

"...for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin." (Romans 14:23; partial) [See and Compare Matthew 23:23]

"All unrighteousness is sin..." (1 John 5:17; partial) [See and Compare Psalms 119:172]

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin." (James 4:17) [See and Compare Romans 7:12]

Therefore, every sin is "also" transgression of the Law.

Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4

Notice, the "whosoever" part as well... not just a "jewish" thing [Ecclesiastes 12:13].

Even before mankind was formed, (Lucifer, then to become known as Satan) sinned in Heaven. And what is sin according to the very scriptures?

Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4;p).

And what sins had Satan committed and were even pointed out by JESUS? Satan was a murderer (John 8:44) and abode not in the truth (John 8:44).

According to the scriptures what is this murder that Satan had done (and continues to do)?

It is the Transgression of the very 6th Commandment (Thou shalt not Kill (Murder) Exodus 20:13).

And what is the Truth that Satan chose not to abide in according to the very scriptures?

Thy Law [is] the Truth (Psalms 119:142),
All thy Commandments [are] Truth (Psalms 119:151),
Thy Word is Truth (John 17:17),
A GOD of Truth (Deuteronomy 32:4),
(JESUS said) I AM the Truth (John 14:6),
The (HOLY) SPIRIT is Truth (1 John 5:6),
All the paths of the LORD are Mercy and Truth unto them that Keep HIS Covenant and HIS Testimonies (Psalms 25:10).

Why then did Satan Murder?

Because he coveted (and lusts John 8:44) in his heart to take and steal that which is not his to have, I will... (Isaiah 14:13-14; Ezekiel 28:2,6) and thus sinned breaking the very 8th and 10th Commandments (Thou shalt not steal ...Thou shalt not covet... Exodus 20:15,17).

In his own heart he set himself up as GOD I will be like the Most High (Isaiah 14:13-14; Ezekiel 28:2,6), served himself and thus sinned breaking the very 1st, 2nd and 3rd Commandments (...Thou shalt have no other gods before me. ...neither bow down thyself and serve them...not take the name of the LORD thy GOD in vain...) (Exodus 20:3,5,7).

And so he dishonored his FATHER in Heaven (and he became the father (John 8:44) of the children of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2, 5:6; Colossians 3:6)) and thus sinned breaking the very 5th Commandment (Honour thy Father...) (Exodus 20:12).

In breaking with GOD, and seeking after himself, he not only committed Idolatry but also Adultery and unfaithfulness and thus sinned breaking the very 7th Commandment (Thou shalt not commit adultery) (Exodus 20:14).

He led 1/3 of the other angels in Heaven in rebellion and disobedience (Revelation 12:4) because he delighted to speaketh a lie (John 8:44) and thus sinned breaking the very 9th Commandment (Thou shalt not bear false witness...) (Exodus 20:16).

And so even in breaking one Commandment of GOD, Satan has broken them all (For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.) (James 2:10).

Even above all of this sin and rebellion against GOD, there was finally war in heaven (Revelation 12:7) and thus the Peace, the Rest of Heaven (the Peace, Love, Joy, Trust, Faith, Obedience, etc.) was broken, and so Satan sinned...and continues to do so, and teaches as many others as he can to do so, knowing full well his own recompense; for the wages of sin [is] death (Romans 6:23; Ezekiel 26:21, 28:18-19) and theirs (2 Thessalonians 1:8; Revelation 21:8).

James is absolutely right and so bears repeating For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all. (James 2:10)

Satan was once Lucifer, the cherub that coverth the very throne of God, he was closest to the very Law of God, and was at one time its guardian.

Yes but unfortunately it isn't the law issued at Sinai. I would settle for - 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

listed · Mar 25, 2012

Lysimachus said:
She hasn't convinced me. Her data has never compelled me.

It's called "picking at straws", and trying to take people's minds away from the "big controversy picture".

At any rate, the point is: There is ample proof that the Celtic Church did observe the Sabbath.

Here is more overwhelming proof:
St. Patrick Kept the Biblical Sabbath!

But let's assume the Celts did not. There is overwhelming proof of Sabbath keeping Christians scattered all throughout Europe. Even the Pope called these "Sabbatarians", "preachers of Antichrist" in the 6th century A.D.

Have you watched The Seventh Day Series narrated by Hal Holbrook?

I would watch the whole thing if I were you. I would also read the book "Truth Triumphant" by Benjamin G. Wilkinson.
http://www.sabbathtruth.com/portals/20/documents/Truth_Triumphant.pdf

Of course not. you automatically throw it out becacuse you're told told to by EGW.The bigest reason an SDA is hard to reach with the truth.

There is no big controversy except the made up one.

No I haven't. Why should I? Can't convince me so you gotta tell me go study some other writing, it will convince you. Why don't you point people to the Bible?

TruthWave7 · Mar 25, 2012

listed said:
Yes but unfortunately it isn't the law issued at Sinai. I would settle for - 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The Holy Spirit was given to free mankind from sin. What is sin? But,the breaking of the law of God. Therefore, if Jesus makes you free, you will be obeying God's holy laws. A sinner is one who is controlled by his fallen sinful human nature, and is the sport of Satan. Obedience is the difference between those who say they are Christians but don't deliver when it comes to being obeying God's Law.

listed · Mar 25, 2012

Lysimachus said:
Professor?

I wrote that article btw, not a professor.
Is the Seal of God the Holy Spirit or the Law?

You sure do a lot of writing to not be a professor.

Lysimachus · Mar 25, 2012

listed said:
Yes but unfortunately it isn't the law issued at Sinai. I would settle for - 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

What is the law of the Spirit? What does that mean?

Is this just some mystical thing that has no definition to it?

listed · Mar 26, 2012

Lysimachus said:
What is the law of the Spirit? What does that mean?

Is this just some mystical thing that has no definition to it?

It certianly isn't the spirit of the law. But you left off a very important part of the sentence. The whole phrase is - 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Revelation 14:6-12 · Mar 26, 2012

listed said:
Yes but unfortunately it isn't the law issued at Sinai. I would settle for - 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Do you understand what will result from that theology [in regards to the first sentence]?

We have come full circle again, as you are back to Romans 8, but we have already been through this...

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:4

How can it be fulfilled in us, if it is no longer?

What results by walking after the Spirit?

The spirit of the law [in anger without cause/murder]...

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22

Anger [spiritual] without cause [proper to God's word], leads to Murder, but if we, by the Grace of God and His Holy Spirit, keep the spirit of the law, shall we ever Murder?

No. Thus we see that when the Spirit is fulfilled the letter is always fulfilled.

To break the letter is sin. To break the spirit is sin, because the letter would never have been broken if the Spirit had been kept.

Notice that the 10 Commandments are mostly "Thou Shalt Not's...", which means in order to fulfil them, we are to continually never do any of those things, but there are Two Commandments 4 [7th Day Sabbath of the Lord thy God] and 5 [Honour thy Father and Mother], that are positively given, which means in order to fulfill them, we are to never cease from doing them, we are to always honour father and mother, as in the Lord, and we are to always keep the 7th Day Holy, and thus, all of the commandments gathered together, we find rest in Christ Jesus, rest from sin which is the bondage [and bonds of iniquity], rest from fear of wrath and death, rest from condemnation - rest.

We may rest in the Creator and Redeemer, and by faith, because we beleive that He [Jesus] is the Creator [who created in 6 literal days and rested the 7th, blessed and sanctified it, and rested in it], and is the Redeemer, who rested in the 7th Day in Redemption, we can know, by Faith, that the Creator will recreate us in redemption. This is why the 7th Day is the sign/seal to the people of God - for it is of faith, and as James says, I will shew thee my faith by my works, for in resting in Him, we cease from rebellion, sin, slavery to satan and rest in what He [Jesus] Commands.

Exodus 20:8-11

Rest.

listed · Mar 26, 2012

Revelation 14:6-12 said:
Do you understand what will result from that theology [in regards to the first sentence]?

We have come full circle again, as you are back to Romans 8, but we have already been through this...

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:4

How can it be fulfilled in us, if it is no longer?

What results by walking after the Spirit?

The spirit of the law [in anger without cause/murder]...

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22

Anger [spiritual] without cause [proper to God's word], leads to Murder, but if we, by the Grace of God and His Holy Spirit, keep the spirit of the law, shall we ever Murder?

No. Thus we see that when the Spirit is fulfilled the letter is always fulfilled.

To break the letter is sin. To break the spirit is sin, because the letter would never have been broken if the Spirit had been kept.

Notice that the 10 Commandments are mostly "Thou Shalt Not's...", which means in order to fulfil them, we are to continually never do any of those things, but there are Two Commandments 4 [7th Day Sabbath of the Lord thy God] and 5 [Honour thy Father and Mother], that are positively given, which means in order to fulfill them, we are to never cease from doing them, we are to always honour father and mother, as in the Lord, and we are to always keep the 7th Day Holy, and thus, all of the commandments gathered together, we find rest in Christ Jesus, rest from sin which is the bondage [and bonds of iniquity], rest from fear of wrath and death, rest from condemnation - rest.

We may rest in the Creator and Redeemer, and by faith, because we beleive that He [Jesus] is the Creator [who created in 6 literal days and rested the 7th, blessed and sanctified it, and rested in it], and is the Redeemer, who rested in the 7th Day in Redemption, we can know, by Faith, that the Creator will recreate us in redemption. This is why the 7th Day is the sign/seal to the people of God - for it is of faith, and as James says, I will shew thee my faith by my works, for in resting in Him, we cease from rebellion, sin, slavery to satan and rest in what He [Jesus] Commands.

Exodus 20:8-11

Rest.

There is a slight difference between the words in and by. you read
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled by us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:4 Just read the forum and what you post.

It plainly says in as you quoted.

The verse explains the how the righteousness of the law is fulfilled right in the verse but you won't listen. This has to do with what Jesus did on the cross. But you reject the Scripture. Is it because Paul said it and it interfres with EGW teaching? Bet it is.

Where do you get spirit of the law? Verse 2 clearly says law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. It also says it makes me free from the law of sin and death. This law of sin and death is a direct reference to the law issued at Sinai.

Look you simply can't cause me to be required to keep a covenant I'm not and have never been subject to.

According to the Scripture I've already been recreated as expressed by both Jesus (John 3) and Paul ( Rom 6 for starters).

Revelation 14:6-12 · Mar 26, 2012

listed said:
There is a slight difference between the words in and by. you read
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled by us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:4 Just read the forum and what you post.

It plainly says in as you quoted.

The verse explains the how the righteousness of the law is fulfilled right in the verse but you won't listen. This has to do with what Jesus did on the cross. But you reject the Scripture. Is it because Paul said it and it interfres with EGW teaching? Bet it is.

Where do you get spirit of the law? Verse 2 clearly says law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. It also says it makes me free from the law of sin and death. This law of sin and death is a direct reference to the law issued at Sinai.

Look you simply can't cause me to be required to keep a covenant I'm not and have never been subject to.

According to the Scripture I've already been recreated as expressed by both Jesus (John 3) and Paul ( Rom 6 for starters).

I read "in", even as you have said, "quoted".

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

Recreation, is one who walks in the Law of the Lord, for they have a new heart, a heart of loving obedience to the Will of God, not one of rebellion against His Law... an "enmity".

I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart. Psalms 40:8

Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven. Matthew 6:10

Lysimachus · Mar 26, 2012

listed said:
It certianly isn't the spirit of the law. But you left off a very important part of the sentence. The whole phrase is - 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

So what does living a life in Christ Jesus mean?

Obedience to God's commandments, or breaking God's commandments?

Did Jesus break His own law?

Lysimachus · Mar 26, 2012

This is the problem, many Christians today keep telling us that we now keep the "law of the spirit", yet they always fail to give us examples of what this means. Is it nothing more than a mere mental ascent to the truth?

listed · Mar 26, 2012

Revelation 14:6-12 said:
I read "in", even as you have said, "quoted".

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

Recreation, is one who walks in the Law of the Lord, for they have a new heart, a heart of loving obedience to the Will of God, not one of rebellion against His Law... an "enmity".

I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart. Psalms 40:8

Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven. Matthew 6:10

Yes it says in and not by. There is a difference.

In Eph 2:10 it says in and not by. It doesn't say works of the law. Neither Paul nor James say or imply works of the law.

Just read your post. It says very clearly works of the law.

listed · Mar 26, 2012

Lysimachus said:
So what does living a life in Christ Jesus mean?

Obedience to God's commandments, or breaking God's commandments?

Did Jesus break His own law?

Jesus obeyed His Father's commandments as John 15:10 states. Jesus didn't issue the ten commandments. We are pretty sure that Jesus didn't lie, covent, commit adultery, murder, obeyed His earthly parents and His Father, kept the Sabbath of the Lord His God. Now which commandments are His Father's. I need to see that Jesus kept something else besides the law, if you insist that Jesus issed the ten commandments.

St. Patrick kept the 7th Day Sabbath!

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