St. Patrick kept the 7th Day Sabbath!

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A step back? Actually, I'm trying to be among the first to express the heart of what true Adventism believes. Sadly, and unfortunately, most SDA's defend their doctrine on a superficial leve, not understanding just how intricate and massive this theological structure is--it is built on a firm platform of 2000 years of solid hewn bricks.

If you would like to evaluate a full study on the subject of the Seal of God vs. the Mark of the Beast, I wrote an article dealing with it here:

Is The Seal of God the Law or the Holy Spirit?



I made a typo. I meant "do not understand".



That is wishful thinking. People who are saved by grace through faith alone will keep all 10 commandments to prove it. "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." (Romans 2:13)

Notice that Paul is not saying that the "law justifies". No, the law does not justify. Only Jesus can justify you. Only faith can save you. Yet Paul is dogmatic about the fact that only "doers" of the law will be justified. Doing does not justify, but only doers will be justified. Get the difference?

And this is something you don't want to see listed.

I'm sorry, but I must take these scriptures seriously. You can cling to all the verses that talk about grace and faith, and leave out the ones on works, but that's not my style of Biblical exegesis. My style is to take in the Bible in its totality, and form doctrine from here a little there a little, precept upon precept, line upon line.

Just like it may appear that Paul contradicts itself, in a similar manner, consider the possibility that this may be exactly why SDA's and even Ellen White "contradict" themselves.

True Adventism strives to reflect what the Scriptures teach in its totality, despite the fact that a number of missinformed Adventists fail miserably in performing this balance.



I don't doubt there are false SDA's out there that live by works. That's their problem. But that's not how I judge the foundations of a belief structure. I don't judge the theological structure based on how the people act. I judge it on its own merits, then if it lines up with the Bible, I determine myself to live up to it the right way, despite those who advocate it may be poor representations of it. A decline in numbers in the SDA Church means absolutely nothing to me. In the time of the flood, it narrowed down to only 8 people left. :)



I've even engaged in debates with them. No need to show me. There are ex-Arminians, ex-Catholics, ex-Baptists, ex-Dispensationalists, ex-Calvinists--and all are throwing anathemas at one another calling eachother cults. I've been out in the real world amongst Christian evangelicals. There are pastors leaving every imaginable church to join the next one--swapping even! And writing books about why their former religion was garbage and built on heresy.

I've seen it all listed. :)



You need to quit worrying so much about SDA folks, and just focus on the scriptures they have presented. Forget people, focus on what is right--despite the fact that the people advocating it may be terrible representations of it.



If you think that I agree with how many SDA folks go about expressing their religion, then you're wrong. Have you read the sermons of A.T. Jones and Waggoner--powerful SDA pioneers? Their entire focus was on Christ and Him Crucified. Yet they understood the importance of keeping the commandments. But they didn't go around emphasizing this. Those who were converted as a result of understanding the love of God and the great sacrifice of Jesus were automatically convicted to keep God's commandments without having to be urged.

Even Ellen White herself warned the SDA Church of focussing too much on "the law", "the law", "the law". Yes, while it was true that the Adventist Church had the correct understanding of the law, they were presenting it in a wrong light--as if that was the focus.

Ellen White highly emphasized the importance of looking to Christ Jesus and Him Crucified. She talked about how we are to emphasize Christ--as He is a living and walking manifestation of the righteousness of the law. It is a transcript of His character. Why? The law is perfect, converting the soul (Psalms 19:7), and Jesus is perfect.



I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, because John 15:10 seems to support what we've been trying to help you see, so what are you trying to say?



Again, too much focus on individuals and people rather than if the core, historic doctrines line up with Scripture.



Then are you willing to deal with the scriptures that Revelation 14:6-12 has provided?

There are a lot of them that seem to get ignored I noticed.
Something else that really bugs me with the SDA crowd is their personalization to manipulate others. Really is an unrecognized problem for most folks.
 
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Lysimachus

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The sabbath isn't the seal of God and has nothing to do with the sealing of the Christian.

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Eph 1

30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Eph 4

There is no such similar statement in the Scripture anywhere about the sabbath. Such is a concoction of EGW. It does matter if you say the Holy Spirit is the Agent that does the sealing or not. In this respect the sabbath would have the exact same function. Eph 1 says very clearly and directly sealed with. It doesn't say sealed by.

I deal with these verses meticulously in my article on the Seal of God and the Holy Spirit.

Your problem is in ascertaining how the Spirit and the Law are intrinsically connected.
 
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Pythons

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Something else that really bugs me with the SDA crowd is their personalization to manipulate others. Really is an unrecognized problem for most folks.

They mean well - they know going into a discussion such as this that their theology is alien and odd....
...Therefore they attempt to use familiar words and terms however they pour new meanings into them.
...Pretending as if those words always had the SDA meaning.

St Patrick never "KEPT" the Sabbath - I'm sure he practiced some type of Liturgy on Saturday....
....However he would have practiced even more of his religion on Sunday.
....Besides that he would have eaten "pork" on the sabbath.

I've already asked one of the SDA's if they would be keeping the sabbath IF they ate pork....
....Don't recall getting an answer to that question - so looks like the answer is no.
 
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Lysimachus

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I'm not allowed to discuss you per the rules. I certianly regret this.

Neither am I interested in debating Jones or Wagner. If you wish to talk about what they said present it. Then I'll deal with it. I have not time to go explore some rabbit trail time consuming research. Personally I think that dividing my time is what you're trying to do here. Neat tatic for the unseasoned debator.

You sure have a habit of quoting people's entire quotes dozens of time with short responses.

Is it not possible for you to quote it once, then break down your response?

My point is this: Before you attack Adventism, become familiar with its historic teachings.

Ellen White endorsed these men because they lifted up Jesus. My point is, before you think you know waht the heart of Adventism teaches, you need to first do yourself the responsible favor by becoming acquianted with true Adventist teaching, and not go by how you see Adventists behaving or how they are acting.
 
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Pythons

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You sure have a habit of quoting people's entire quotes dozens of time with short responses.

Is it not possible for you to quote it once, then break down your response?

My point is this: Before you attack Adventism, become familiar with its historic teachings.

Ellen White endorsed these men because they lifted up Jesus. My point is, before you think you know waht the heart of Adventism teaches, you need to first do yourself the responsible favor by becoming acquianted with true Adventist teaching, and not go by how you see Adventists behaving or how they are acting.

Lifted up Jesus?


J.H. Waggoner
Surely, we say right, that the doctrine of a trinity degrades the atonement, by bringing this sacrifice, the blood of our purchase, down to the standard of socinianism." , The Atonement (Oakland, Cal.: Pacific Press, 1884), p. 174.


J.H. Waggoner, Review and Herald Nov 10, 1863
As before remarked, the great mistake of Trinitarians, in arguing this subject, is this: they make no distinction between a denial of a trinity and a denial of the divinity of Christ. They see only the two extremes, between which the truth lies; and take every expression referring to the pre-existence of Christ as evidence of a trinity. The Scriptures abundantly teach the pre-existence of Christ and his divinity; but they are entirely silent in regard to a trinity. The declaration, that the divine Son of God could not die, is as far from the teachings of the Bible as darkness is from light. And we would ask the Trinitarian, to which of the two natures are we indebted for redemption? The answer must, of course, be, To that one which died or shed his blood for us; for “we have redemption through his blood.” Then it is evident that if only the human nature died, our Redeemer is only human, and that the divine Son of God took no part in the work of redemption, for he could neither suffer nor die. Surely, we say right, that the doctrine of a trinity degrades the Atonement, by bringing the sacrifice, the blood of our purchase, down to the standard of Socinianism. (J. H. Waggoner, 1884, The Atonement In The Light Of Nature And Revelation, page 173) (This is also found in Review & Herald, November 10, 1863, vol. 22, page 189)

Which "Trinitarian" ever taught this Lysimachus ?
 
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Lysimachus

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St Patrick never "KEPT" the Sabbath - I'm sure he practiced some type of Liturgy on Saturday....
....However he would have practiced even more of his religion on Sunday.
....Besides that he would have eaten "pork" on the sabbath.

You have no evidence that he did "not" keep the Sabbath. You're better off saying there is no "direct" evidence that he observed the Sabbath in the same way we do, but historical sources confirm that the Celtic Church certainly observed the Sabbath, and we know that St. Patrick was a part of this church. So it is not "off-the-charts" to theorize that he most likely did.

"Saint Patrick" and the Early Celtic Church: Sunday-Keeping Catholics or Sabbath-observant Christians?
 
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Pythons

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You have no evidence that he did "not" keep the Sabbath. You're better off saying there is no "direct" evidence that he observed the Sabbath in the same way we do, but historical sources confirm that the Celtic Church certainly observed the Sabbath, and we know that St. Patrick was a part of this church. So it is not "off-the-charts" to theorize that he most likely did.

"Saint Patrick" and the Early Celtic Church: Sunday-Keeping Catholics or Sabbath-observant Christians?

Yer PM box is full BTW.

That St. Patrick participated in some type of Liturgical Service of the Church on the Sabbath I have no doubt...
...What I'm saying is that whatever service it was was secondary in importance.
...To the Liturgical Service celebrated on Sunday.

The closest denomination to the SDA ( outside the Adventist ones ) that I know of is the Ethiopian Orthodox Church...
....Who hold rubrics every Sabbath without exception and also follow the law of Moses whereas clean unclean food is concerned.
....However the Tewahedo also practice their primary Liturgy on Sunday.
....As they claim to always have done since the time St. Mark gave the Faith to them.
 
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I deal with these verses meticulously in my article on the Seal of God and the Holy Spirit.

Your problem is in ascertaining how the Spirit and the Law are intrinsically connected.
Great. Now cut and paste the revelant parts of that professor. I won't argue something that isn't here. A refenence to something doesn't preenent any contents.
 
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They mean well - they know going into a discussion such as this that their theology is alien and odd....
...Therefore they attempt to use familiar words and terms however they pour new meanings into them.
...Pretending as if those words always had the SDA meaning.

St Patrick never "KEPT" the Sabbath - I'm sure he practiced some type of Liturgy on Saturday....
....However he would have practiced even more of his religion on Sunday.
....Besides that he would have eaten "pork" on the sabbath.

I've already asked one of the SDA's if they would be keeping the sabbath IF they ate pork....
....Don't recall getting an answer to that question - so looks like the answer is no.
Great explanation of the SDA code and its purpose.
 
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You sure have a habit of quoting people's entire quotes dozens of time with short responses.

Is it not possible for you to quote it once, then break down your response?

My point is this: Before you attack Adventism, become familiar with its historic teachings.

Ellen White endorsed these men because they lifted up Jesus. My point is, before you think you know waht the heart of Adventism teaches, you need to first do yourself the responsible favor by becoming acquianted with true Adventist teaching, and not go by how you see Adventists behaving or how they are acting.
Gripe, gripe, gripe and gripe some more. I don't like long posts. You present lots of information in your long posts and it gets lost. Many times there isn't a real good place to break into a post. Besides not many read long posts. They tend to get lost in all thos words. Sprry bout your psersonal problems. Besides it is much easier to recover from a malfunction. I do lose material from time to time for some technical reason. Some times this thing won't let me change a function withough posting then edit or starting over. Really fustrating.

There is no need for me to understand every jot and tittle of Adventism. I'd never get to debate any doctrine. I think it is worng that you promote the idea I don't know about the SDA teaching and practice. This IMO is an atttempt to silence me. Ya gotta try something else, professor.
 
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Lifted up Jesus?


J.H. Waggoner
Surely, we say right, that the doctrine of a trinity degrades the atonement, by bringing this sacrifice, the blood of our purchase, down to the standard of socinianism." , The Atonement (Oakland, Cal.: Pacific Press, 1884), p. 174.


J.H. Waggoner, Review and Herald Nov 10, 1863
As before remarked, the great mistake of Trinitarians, in arguing this subject, is this: they make no distinction between a denial of a trinity and a denial of the divinity of Christ. They see only the two extremes, between which the truth lies; and take every expression referring to the pre-existence of Christ as evidence of a trinity. The Scriptures abundantly teach the pre-existence of Christ and his divinity; but they are entirely silent in regard to a trinity. The declaration, that the divine Son of God could not die, is as far from the teachings of the Bible as darkness is from light. And we would ask the Trinitarian, to which of the two natures are we indebted for redemption? The answer must, of course, be, To that one which died or shed his blood for us; for “we have redemption through his blood.” Then it is evident that if only the human nature died, our Redeemer is only human, and that the divine Son of God took no part in the work of redemption, for he could neither suffer nor die. Surely, we say right, that the doctrine of a trinity degrades the Atonement, by bringing the sacrifice, the blood of our purchase, down to the standard of Socinianism. (J. H. Waggoner, 1884, The Atonement In The Light Of Nature And Revelation, page 173) (This is also found in Review & Herald, November 10, 1863, vol. 22, page 189)

Which "Trinitarian" ever taught this Lysimachus ?
Excellent, excellent I say excellent. This is a prme example why I don't chase down this other stuff. After looking at your quotes and chasing down what I didn't know I think our fiend was hoping it would slip by me. I have no need to study other peoples works. It is exactly what the SDA teach which has been denied.
 
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You have no evidence that he did "not" keep the Sabbath. You're better off saying there is no "direct" evidence that he observed the Sabbath in the same way we do, but historical sources confirm that the Celtic Church certainly observed the Sabbath, and we know that St. Patrick was a part of this church. So it is not "off-the-charts" to theorize that he most likely did.

"Saint Patrick" and the Early Celtic Church: Sunday-Keeping Catholics or Sabbath-observant Christians?
Sophia 7 already covered this in a couple posts early in the thread.
 
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Revelation 14:6-12

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I know the SDA speak in code. It has even been joked about here. It has been asked to be given and refused. It is the same for some other well known religious organizations. It is the primary means of deception. The same words are used with different meanings.


The SDA folks here won't define anything. The problem is it gets them into trouble with their doctrine. Just read the forum and count on probably one finger the number of times they cooperate and define anything using standard meanings from the dictionary or demand exclusive meanings to words such as commandments.


The first thing ans SDA brings up is do you love God? The answer ususally is Yes.


Then the second question is do you keep the commandments? It too ususally gets a yes.


Then John 14:15 is always used to make it appear they are lying and really hate Jesus. Now the average person is really trapped. Some fall and other are just stubborn and still don't understand why and what they believe. Ask me how I know. Well in case no one does, it is personal first hand experience in person.


Some years ago I ask Truthwave7 then BrightCandle about John 15:10 and he never heard of it. I'm sure that this would be catagorically denied. That is standard procedure. Few understand the predicament this puts an SDA in. None of their choices are good. I have yet to find any that will face the music of the truth. It will be very costly to them. Oh would I love to get into that.


...


Jesus said [quoted] in the NT:

If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15

Jesus said [as He first spoke and then wrote [twice] the Ten Commandments] in the OT:


And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:6

Which commandments do both sentences refer to directly?

Please see Exodus 20:2-17; The Ten Commandments.

Now as to John 15:10...

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:10

...shall we consider a bit more context?

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. John 15:12

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. John 15:14

These things I command you, that ye love one another. John 15:17

This is the same as that which was given in the OT [Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:17-18, love of God and Neighbour [neigh brother]]

What were the commandments that the Father gave unto the Son?

If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. John 15:24

Notice, that Jesus was to do those things that were "done among them the works which none other man did".

We see this throughout John, especially the commandment to lay down His life, which He [Jesus] freely gave:

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. John 10:18

See also the many "works" Jesus was to finish:

Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. John 4:34

For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. John 5:20

For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. John 5:21

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. John 5:30

But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36

I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. John 5:43

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. John 6:39

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40

As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. John 6:57

His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest. John 7:3

Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. John 9:3

I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. John 9:4

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. John 10:25

If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. John 10:37

But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him. John 10:38

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. John 12:49

And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. John 12:50

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. John 14:12

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. John 14:13

But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence. John 14:31

If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. John 15:24

See also:

The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, Luke 4:18

[To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, [and] them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. Isaiah 42:7]

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Hebrews 10:7

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. Hebrews 10:9

[Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me, Psalms 40:7 and I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart. Psalms 40:8... etc, see also Zechariah 2:10]

He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. Isaiah 42:4

The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make [it] honourable. Isaiah 42:21

etc.

But let us also go back to John 15:14:

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. John 15:14

...and consider this a bit more:

Noah was a preacher of righteousness [2 Peter 2:5] and "walked with God" [Genesis 6:9], as did faithful "Enoch" [Genesis 5:22.24] who "pleased God" [Hebrews 11:5] and to Keep Holy the Sabbath Day is to please God [Isaiah 58:13].

All of God's Commandments are righteousness [Psalms 119:172] and Noah was a preacher of righteousness.

The Patriarchs knew of the Ten Commandments -

Job, himself, was "a perfect and upright man, fearing GOD and hating evil" [Job 1:1, 2:3] [To Fear God is to Keep His Commandments, Ecclesiastes 12:13].

Abraham was called the "friend of God" [2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:3] and he obeyed the voice of the Lord and Kept His Commandments [Genesis 26:5] and taught them to his children [Genesis 18:19]

Also "the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend" [Exodus 33:11] and we know Moses was to keep the Ten Commandments...

...but even further still another link in the chain, Jesus Himself says to us "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."[John 15:14] and He says as before, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." [John 14:15], as we see first in Exodus 20:6 unto Moses and all the peoples. Moses, rather than enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season... [Hebrews 11:25].

God only codified them in Stone at Mt. Sinai. Yet each of the Ten Commandments can be found before Mt. Sinai in the Old Testament... [evidence upon request]
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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God only codified them in Stone at Mt. Sinai. Yet each of the Ten Commandments can be found before Mt. Sinai in the Old Testament... [evidence upon request]
Please do provide for me. Thanks

Hebrew 12:18 For not ye have come toward to being handled a mountain, and to having been kindled to fire and to murkiness and to darkness and to tempest.

Reve 8:8 And the second Messenger trumpets and as-like a mountain, great to fire burning, was cast into the Sea and became the third of the Sea blood
[Matthew 21:21/Galatian 4:24, 25/Hebrew 12:18]
 
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Please do provide for me. Thanks

Hebrew 12:18 For not ye have come toward to being handled a mountain, and to having been kindled to fire and to murkiness and to darkness and to tempest.

Reve 8:8 And the second Messenger trumpets and as-like a mountain, great to fire burning, was cast into the Sea and became the third of the Sea blood
[Matthew 21:21/Galatian 4:24, 25/Hebrew 12:18]
I'm also interested in such evidence.
 
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Jesus said [quoted] in the NT:

If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15

Jesus said [as He first spoke and then wrote [twice] the Ten Commandments] in the OT:

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:6

Which commandments do both sentences refer to directly?

Please see Exodus 20:2-17; The Ten Commandments.

Now as to John 15:10...

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:10

...shall we consider a bit more context?

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. John 15:12

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. John 15:14

These things I command you, that ye love one another. John 15:17

This is the same as that which was given in the OT [Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:17-18, love of God and Neighbour [neigh brother]]

What were the commandments that the Father gave unto the Son?

If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. John 15:24

Notice, that Jesus was to do those things that were "done among them the works which none other man did".

We see this throughout John, especially the commandment to lay down His life, which He [Jesus] freely gave:

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. John 10:18

See also the many "works" Jesus was to finish:

Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. John 4:34

For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. John 5:20

For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. John 5:21

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. John 5:30

But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36

I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. John 5:43

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. John 6:39

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40

As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. John 6:57

His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest. John 7:3

Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. John 9:3

I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. John 9:4

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. John 10:25

If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. John 10:37

But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him. John 10:38

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. John 12:49

And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. John 12:50

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. John 14:12

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. John 14:13

But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence. John 14:31

If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. John 15:24

See also:

The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, Luke 4:18

[To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, [and] them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. Isaiah 42:7]

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Hebrews 10:7

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. Hebrews 10:9

[Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me, Psalms 40:7 and I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart. Psalms 40:8... etc, see also Zechariah 2:10]

He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. Isaiah 42:4

The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make [it] honourable. Isaiah 42:21

etc.

But let us also go back to John 15:14:

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. John 15:14

...and consider this a bit more:

Noah was a preacher of righteousness [2 Peter 2:5] and "walked with God" [Genesis 6:9], as did faithful "Enoch" [Genesis 5:22.24] who "pleased God" [Hebrews 11:5] and to Keep Holy the Sabbath Day is to please God [Isaiah 58:13].

All of God's Commandments are righteousness [Psalms 119:172] and Noah was a preacher of righteousness.

The Patriarchs knew of the Ten Commandments -

Job, himself, was "a perfect and upright man, fearing GOD and hating evil" [Job 1:1, 2:3] [To Fear God is to Keep His Commandments, Ecclesiastes 12:13].

Abraham was called the "friend of God" [2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:3] and he obeyed the voice of the Lord and Kept His Commandments [Genesis 26:5] and taught them to his children [Genesis 18:19]

Also "the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend" [Exodus 33:11] and we know Moses was to keep the Ten Commandments...

...but even further still another link in the chain, Jesus Himself says to us "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."[John 15:14] and He says as before, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." [John 14:15], as we see first in Exodus 20:6 unto Moses and all the peoples. Moses, rather than enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season... [Hebrews 11:25].

God only codified them in Stone at Mt. Sinai. Yet each of the Ten Commandments can be found before Mt. Sinai in the Old Testament... [evidence upon request]
Twist it up however you like. As a rule I don't ask for no existant evidence. On the basis I missed something provide this evidence you offer. Remember to deal with Gal 3:19, Mat 11:13 and LK 16:16.
 
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TruthWave7

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Twist it up however you like. As a rule I don't ask for no existant evidence. On the basis I missed something provide this evidence you offer. Remember to deal with Gal 3:19, Mat 11:13 and LK 16:16.

How is it, that you and others on this topic, refuse to confess that St. Patrick kept the 7th day Sabbath hundreds of years after the death of Jesus? Do you deny the solid biblical and historical basis for Patrick keeping the Sabbath? Even Catholic historians back up the SDA position on this issue. Do you think that the Catholic historians would have said that St. Patrick kept the Sabbath to bolster the SDA position on this issue? I don't think so! It proves that Patrick didn't go along with tradition if Rome during his time. This fact alone, explodes the idea that the Sabbath was done away with at the cross. If that was the case someone should have told St. Patrick about that!
 
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Revelation 14:6-12

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Twist it up however you like. As a rule I don't ask for no existant evidence. On the basis I missed something provide this evidence you offer. Remember to deal with Gal 3:19, Mat 11:13 and LK 16:16.

If you would not mind, I shall like to open to the scriptures of Matthew 11:13 and Luke 16:16, first, since they are somewhat related to one another [as for Galatians 3:19, we can come to in just a moment, ok?]:

Let us look at the scriptures [together] upon this subject:


For
all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. Matthew 11:13

The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Luke 16:16

[the word "were" is added by translators and not in the Greek, which is why it is in [brackets], follow after Matthew 11:13]

There are a great many passages in scripture, which is called the "law and the prophets"; that prophesied about Christ Jesus in His First coming/Advent...

...yet there are a great many that Prophesy even now about His Second Coming/Advent...


...which is drawing more and more nigh...

Do these passages say that there are no more prophets, no more law [hence no more Bible; the law and the testimony; Isaiah 8:20, etc]? No.

Let us see what further scripture has to say:

Behold,
I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: Malachi 4:5

You might consider this brief study here, [but let us continue]: The Last Elijah Message

Jesus indeed did come the First time and John the Baptist did preach in the "spirit and power of Elijah"
[Luke 1:17]and Jesus did say that John the Baptist was an Elijah to come [Matthew 11:14, 17:12; Mark 9:12-13], but Malachi 4:5 clearly says that there would be an end-time "Elijah" message and scripture also says that the Great and Dreadful Day of the LORD [His Second Coming/Advent] is yet to come...

Jesus, even warned against the many false prophets to come, as did Peter and John...
[Matthew 7:15, 24:11,24, Mark 13:22, 2 Peter 2:1, 1 John 4:1]

The question then to ask is, "Why bother to warn about false prophets if there were to be no more True Prophets?"
[Acts 13:6; 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 4:1; Revelation 16:13, 19:20, 20:10]

Why, would He not instead warn against all prophets that were to come?, yet we can know by scripture that there would be more True Prophets to continue until the end of time...

And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joel 2:28

And
it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams. Acts 2:17

And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out
in those daysof my Spirit; and they shall prophesy. Acts 2:18

Jesus Himself was also a Prophet
[Deuteronomy 18:15,18; John 4:44, 6:14, 9:17; Acts 3:22-23, 7:37]

There were Prophets in the Church even after Jesus ascended into Heaven:

Agabus
[Acts 11:28, 21:10]

Philips Four Daughters [Acts 21:9]

Peter who saw vision [Acts 10]

Paul who saw visions [Acts; 2 Corinthians 12:2]


Church members:

Having then
giftsdiffering according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith; Romans 12:6

[Acts 19:6; 1 Corinthians 13:9, 14:1,5,24,31,37,39]

John [the Apostle] in
[Revelation 1:1,4]

Those in the latter days with the endtime Three Angels Messages
[Revelation 14]and Elijah Message [And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. Revelation 10:11]

Scripture says that Prophets were to continue to be a manifested gift in the church:

.... And
the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Acts 11:26;p

And
in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch. Acts 11:27

Now
there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets... Acts 13:1;p

And
Judas and Silas, being prophets alsothemselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed [them]. Acts 15:32

For God hath set the Prophets in the Church:

And
God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:28

[Are] all apostles? [are] all
prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles? 1 Corinthians 12:29
Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 1 Corinthians 14:29

And
the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 1 Corinthians 14:32

And are
built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; Ephesians 2:20

Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as
it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; Ephesians 3:5

And
he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Ephesians 4:11

...
thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,.... Revelation 11:18

For
they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. Revelation 16:6

Rejoice over her, [thou] heaven, and [ye] holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. Revelation 18:20

And
in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. Revelation 18:24

And so that the Church would come behind in no gift, including Prophets:

So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1 Corinthians 1:7

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Ephesians 4:12

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Ephesians 4:13

...there is an endtime Elijah message, that is going before the Lord, and soon He shall come...

...to be continued...
 
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Revelation 14:6-12

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...to be continued...

...continued...

Now if we may go back to Matthew 11 and Luke 16 [and gather some more context]:


Matthew:

And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind? Matthew 11:7

But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft [clothing] are in kings' houses. Matthew 11:8

But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet. Matthew 11:9

For this is [he], of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Matthew 11:10

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Matthew 11:11

And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. Matthew 11:12

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. Matthew 11:13

And if ye will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to come. Matthew 11:14

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Matthew 11:15

...notice further that the context of Matthew 11, is in the scene of repentance and the "day of judgment".

...and so we continue in Matthew [also Luke, even Mark] and see in Matthew 17, the transfiguration of Christ Jesus upon the Mount [as He had said, "
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." Matthew 16:28 and "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Matthew 16:29 and "And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." Mark 9:1 and "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." Luke 9:27; notice in each that after 6 days [being on the 7th Day; and so after 6,000 years, then the Millennium [1,000 years]], they then saw Jesus Glorified between Moses and Elijah, representing the Law and the Prophets, to whom both point to], where He spake with the actual Living and resurrected Moses, and the Living and translated Elijah [the two, which are types of the end time events, Those who will be resurrected at the Second Coming, and those who will be translated alive and changed in an instant at that event].

The disciples that were with Him, then were greatly perplexed about this, for they had some knowledge about the Second Coming from the prophecies and so asked Jesus:

And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. Matthew 17:9

And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? Matthew 17:10

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. Matthew 17:11

...Notice... "Shall first come, and restore all things." [FUTURE TENSE]...speaking of the Second Coming Herald...

But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Matthew 17:12

....Notice... "That Elias is come already, and they knew him not..." [PAST TENSE, PRESENT TENSE]...speaking of the First Coming Herald...

...so the "is come" [First Advent] is John the Baptist...

Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. Matthew 17:13

Notice also the same in Mark 9:

And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. Mark 9:9

And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean. Mark 9:10

And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come? Mark 9:11

And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. Mark 9:12

...Notice... "Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things" [FUTURE TENSE]...speaking of the Second Coming Herald...

But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him. Mark 9:13

....Notice... "That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him..." [PAST TENSE, PRESENT TENSE]...speaking of the First Coming Herald...

...so the "is indeed come" [First Advent] is John the Baptist...


For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Matthew 3:3

The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Mark 1:3

And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. Luke 1:7

As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Luke 3:4

He said, I [am] the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. John 1:23

As Prophesied in the OT of the First Coming/Advent...

The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Isaiah 40:3

...the Second Coming, "Prophesy again", for Lo, He comes;
Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Matthew 3:12 [also Luke 3:17]...:

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Revelation 19:10

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. Revelation 10:7

And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. Revelation 10:11

...the "little book" is now "open" [Revelation 10:2] [which are the Parts of Daniel that were sealed; "
shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end" Daniel 12:4]

...see Revelation 14:6-12, the Three Angels Messages, which are even now going forth... and Revelation 18, soon to come...

...ended for now...
 
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