Comparing 1 Thes.4, with 1 Cor.15.

Choose Wisely · Feb 25, 2012

Dwylcs said:
Not wanting to interrupt here.

Hi ChooseWisely,
I like the idea of the "first fruits" you mention, as it relates to mercy, which always comes before truth when the two are mentioned in the Bible.

I've been wondering, if possible, could you provide a chronological list of all the 'raptures' 'gleanings' / 'reapings' through to the final outcome, as you see them - with references.

I can't read a lot sometimes, so something brief would be enough.
Thanks
Dwylcs

Chronological lists of raptures?

Pre trib rapture. Includes dead in Christ and alive believers (the Church). Like the Days of Noah. Occurs at the trump of God, 1 Thes 4. Likely to occur on Pentecost an early summer harvest....Know that summer is near. This is the harvest that will bring the 7th king and a world gov to power.

Then God deals with Israel.......his elect. Before this harvest can occur the first fruits must be presented. These are the 144,000 from the 12 tribes. When they are sealed.....they are taken. Rev 7, Rev 14.

Then the havest will occur.........the main harvest. The harvest occurs after the tribulation (Rev 6). 1 Cor 15 at the last trump. Likely occurs on the Feast of Trumpets when the last trump is blown. It will be like the days of Lot. This is the great multitude of Rev 7 and the harvest is shown in Rev14:15-16.

Then the two witnesses are taken at the end of the wrath of God.

The error that pre tribbers make is that they mistake the second harvest for the second coming of Christ.

The errors that post tribbers make are too numerous to list.

Dwylcs · Feb 26, 2012

Thanks. Much appreciated.

I think a lot has to happen before a pre-tribulation rapture.

zeke37 · Feb 26, 2012

juvenissun said:
Who are they?

the text says that they are Israel.
from the twelve tribes, not just "jews"

juvenissun · Feb 26, 2012

zeke37 said:
the text says that they are Israel.
from the twelve tribes, not just "jews"

So you mean that some Palestinians who live in Israel could be included?

Or, are you saying that some Israelis live in Galilee also count.

zeke37 · Feb 26, 2012

juvenissun said:
So you mean that some Palestinians who live in Israel could be included?

no that is not what i meant.

Or, are you saying that some Israelis live in Galilee also count.

whether that is true or not is up to the Lord
but that is not what i was refering to either.

the whole house of Israel includes many more peopel than just "jews".

zeke37 · Feb 26, 2012

Dwylcs said:
Thanks. Much appreciated.

I think a lot has to happen before a pre-tribulation rapture.

there is no such thing as a pre trib rapture.
the raptrure is after the Lord brings the dead in Christ from heaven, to earth,
and raises them on the last day.

after that, we (His elect) shall be changed and gathered together with them.

Dwylcs · Feb 26, 2012

zeke37 said:
there is no such thing as a pre trib rapture.
the raptrure is after the Lord brings the dead in Christ from heaven, to earth,
and raises them on the last day.

after that, we (His elect) shall be changed and gathered together with them.

From post #19

The universal subjugation of the world to the 'Beastly Kingdom' without just cause is indefensible.

Proverbs 26:2 'the curse causeless shall not come."

If you find this 'just cause' you'll find "the key" to this whole matter.

Choose Wisely · Feb 26, 2012

Dwylcs said:
Thanks. Much appreciated.

I think a lot has to happen before a pre-tribulation rapture.

Can you give me a short list of what has to happen before a pre trib rapture?

Dwylcs · Feb 27, 2012

Choose Wisely said:
Can you give me a short list of what has to happen before a pre trib rapture?

I hope to post soon, God willing. It will be different to what you might expect.

juvenissun · Feb 27, 2012

zeke37 said:
no that is not what i meant.

whether that is true or not is up to the Lord
but that is not what i was refering to either.

the whole house of Israel includes many more peopel than just "jews".

I see. OK.

But, you are saying that you don't think the rapture will happen pre-tribulation.

Otherwise, there will be no believing gentiles when the 144,000 is called. The Church era is already over.

And, if faithful gentiles still count, then the 144,000 number is probably too small. I would guess tens of millions would be about the right number.

zeke37 · Feb 27, 2012

Dwylcs said:
From post #19

The universal subjugation of the world to the 'Beastly Kingdom' without just cause is indefensible.

Proverbs 26:2 'the curse causeless shall not come."

If you find this 'just cause' you'll find "the key" to this whole matter.

well, the whole world will be subjugated to the World Beastly Kingdom
only the elect will not be "seduced".

when I post here, i don't post in riddles.
i don't know why some want to do that...

if you have the meaning of the "key" then please by all means, tell us.

juvenissun said:
I see. OK.

But, you are saying that you don't think the rapture will happen pre-tribulation.

of course. i'm a post tribber.
the rapture happens AFTER the Lord returns here with the dead in Chist
and raises them here on the last day. 1Thes4/John6, 11

after that, the rapture.

Otherwise, there will be no believing gentiles when the 144,000 is called. The Church era is already over.

huh?
IMO the 144000 represent all of the "natural" ancient Israel's dedscendants,
that have been scattered to the 4 winds over time
beginning with the Assyrian captivity, near 3 thousand years ago.

the gentiles are spoken to in Rev18:4,
after babylon has fallen, yet before the plagues come.
they are the "grafted in" ones....wild olive tree.
but just as loved.

just my theory.
but i'm completely sure about the "rapture" being "post trib.

And, if faithful gentiles still count, then the 144,000 number is probably too small. I would guess tens of millions would be about the right number.

i don't believe that the 144000 is a literal number anyway...
it's a biblical number, 12x12x1000
each number means something in the bible.
12 being governmental perfection

Bible2 · Feb 28, 2012

juvenissun said in post #30:

But, you are saying that you don't think the rapture will happen pre-tribulation.

Otherwise, there will be no believing gentiles when the 144,000 is called. The Church era is already over.

Note that there's no such thing as "the Church era", because the church will continue on the earth throughout all eras (Ephesians 3:21). The church will continue on the earth during the coming tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4), and then during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), and then on the subsequent new earth (Revelation 21:1-4).

Regarding the 144,000, they're Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they're members of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They're the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4b) in the sense of being its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They're male virgins (Revelation 14:4) who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century and who could all be alive on the earth today. They will all be alive on the earth when the future tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18 begins, and so they will all enter into it (Revelation 7:4, Revelation 9:4), just as all the rest of the church alive on the earth when the tribulation begins will enter into it (cf. Revelation 7:9,14), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Mark 13:24-27).

The 144,000 can include both Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. For just as all genetic Jews in the church remain members of the tribe of Israel into which they were born (Romans 11:1b, Acts 4:36b), so all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b).

This is necessary because all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9b,12b).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he's a part of, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the twelve tribes of the 144,000 (Revelation 7:5-8), because the Israel the 144,000 are from isn't genetic Israel with its twelve genetic tribes (Genesis 49:28) which include Dan (Genesis 49:17), but rather spiritual Israel, which is different than genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-8), and which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both Jews and Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

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All obedient believers will be spiritually protected during the coming tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). And some in the church will also be physically protected during some or all of that time, while others in the church won't be physically protected during that time.

The 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:4), along with some others in the church, will be physically protected so that they will survive the first stage (Revelation 6) of the coming tribulation, while many others in the church won't be physically protected, so that they will die during that first stage, and their souls will enter into heaven (Revelation 7:9,14).

After the first stage is over, the 144,000 part of the church will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection (Revelation 9:4) before the seventh seal of the tribulation is unsealed (Revelation 8:1). Out of the seventh seal will come the seven trumpets of the tribulation (Revelation 8:1-2). The events of the first six trumpets up to Revelation 9:19 will be the second stage of the tribulation. The seal that the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all other believers receive: Ephesians 1:13b) will physically protect them during this second stage (Revelation 9:4). Everyone else in the church still alive on the earth at that time won't necessarily be physically protected, but at least some will be.

This physical protection of some in the church but not others in the church during the coming tribulation will be similar to how the first-century local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) was physically protected during one specific first-century tribulation (Revelation 3:10) while the first-century local church congregation in the city of Smyrna in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) wasn't physically protected during that one specific first-century tribulation (Revelation 2:10).

After the second stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 is over, the 144,000 male virgins part of the church (like Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies into heaven: Hebrews 11:5, 2 Kings 2:11) will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 12:5; Revelation 14:4-5, TR), right before the third stage of the tribulation, the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), begins (Revelation 12:5-6, Revelation 13:5-8). This 3.5-year time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11-14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:9-13).

The 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:1,4) will remain up in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, TR) during the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-10) while two other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents all those in the church who will flee into wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14), and the remnant of the woman's seed (Revelation 12:17) who will be all those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

After the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist is declared legally over at the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the seven plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly temple opening of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5-16:1). These seven vials will be the fourth and final stage (Revelation 16) of the tribulation.

Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials of God's wrath will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth during that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18 while remaining on the earth. They are those who will be alive on the earth at the second coming of Jesus to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (cf. Psalms 91) throughout the entire tribulation, without having to have been part of the 144,000.

---

The number 144,000 in Revelation 7:4 and Revelation 14:1,3 is a literal number of people, which will consist of twelve groups with 12,000 people in each group (Revelation 7:5-8).

Similarly, the 144,000 will be literal male virgins, never having had intercourse with women (Revelation 14:4), just as 1 Corinthians 7:25 refers to literal virgins.

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There is such a thing as the best part of the church, for the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church is the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). This doesn't create a schism in the church, for as believers the 144,000 are still an integral part of the one and only body of the church made up of all believers (Ephesians 4:4-6). But in this one body, all believers "have not the same office" (Romans 12:4); some believers have better offices/gifts than others (1 Corinthians 12:28-31).

---

During the coming tribulation, the unsaved (and the apostate) people who will be assigned to have the mark of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) placed on their foreheads (instead of on their right hands) (Revelation 13:16) could be those who will be an elite, illumined, cognoscenti class of Gnostic Luciferians who alone will have been given knowledge of the ultimate secrets of the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism. The Antichrist will be both a Luciferian (Revelation 13:4) and a Gnostic, denying that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and forbidding marriage and the eating of meat (1 Timothy 4:1-3). The cream of his cognoscenti could be a faux 144,000, consisting of male virgins (as a counterfeit of Revelation 14:4) who have never eaten meat. If they receive the mark of the Antichrist's name (instead of a representation of the number of his name) (Revelation 13:17) on their foreheads, this will be as a counterfeit of YHWH's 144,000 in Revelation 14:1. But the Antichrist won't pretend that he's YHWH, just as he won't pretend that he's Christ. Instead, as a Gnostic he will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And his Gnostic denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being the Christ.

Dwylcs · Feb 28, 2012

Choose Wisely said:
Can you give me a short list of what has to happen before a pre trib rapture?

I don't know if I could put this in a list, so here's a 'brief' outline.
I'll start with what I wrote earlier:

From post #19
"The universal subjugation of the world to the 'Beastly Kingdom' without just cause is indefensible.

Proverbs 26:2 "the curse causeless shall not come."

If you find this 'just cause' you'll find "the key" to this whole matter."

The shift that is to take place between this present state and the Beastly realm is momentous.
Whatever is to take place must, under God's Government, be sound - both morally and practically.

Because we are under a Government of motive, and not coercion and force, there are certain moral obligations to its subjects which ought to respect their free choice.

Based on this Governmental propriety, we as subjects retain the first right of refusal; this also applies to the Beastly realm to come.
Therefore, to subject all peoples to this Beastly kingdom without 'just reason', would not only amount to a breach of this propriety, but also of moral obligation, and a betrayal of trust - which would bring into disrepute the character of God.
This is indefensible.

We clearly get a choice. What are the conditions?
The clear indicator is given to us in Rev 3:10, the keeping of 'the word of his patience', which also relates to many other verses.
'In short it's saying, 'if you keep, I will keep'.

But what is this word of His Patience? Is it different to what we already have, and if so what 'special word' would be required to determine who 'goes' and who 'stays'?

The Effects of this 'Word'
While Paul mentions in Romans that there is no good thing in his flesh, and also the vanity we are all subject to - Jesus provides the solution to this in his prayer - "sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

(There is no disgrace in this present subjection to this 'vanity', for in the wisdom of God, our existing efforts to rise above this vanity was all part of our right to 'self-government')

Jesus also talked of the Manna from Heaven.
This I believe is yet to be poured out on all flesh to sanctify it, and hearts. This will make ready - in 'His' way - willing subjects for their removal, but firstly it will guarantee that God is unhampered in his works of drawing as many as are willing to him.
Spiritually it draws us even closer to him - 'we will be one with him' - while giving us "new wineskins" (sanctification of the flesh) to contain this greater blessing.

This work would give everyone a chance, in other words - he will invite all, 'both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond', to receive this great blessing - a universal blessing, before a universal curse.

Now I know this is quite different to what we normally contemplate, but it can only really be confirmed to the individual from above.

Dwylcs

Bible2 · Mar 5, 2012

Dwylcs said in post #33:

The universal subjugation of the world to the 'Beastly Kingdom' without just cause is indefensible.

Proverbs 26:2 …"the curse causeless shall not come."

God sometimes allows exceptions to Proverbs 26:2, insofar as just as God allowed Jesus to be cursed (Galatians 3:13b) despite Jesus being completely innocent (2 Corinthians 5:21), and just as God allowed Job to suffer at the hands of Satan despite Job being righteous in God's eyes (Job chapters 1-2), and just as God allowed the church in Smyrna to suffer at the hands of Satan (Revelation 2:10) despite that church being righteous in God's eyes (Revelation 2:9), so God will allow the righteous church in every nation to suffer at the hands of Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) during the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18/Matthew 24 (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). By the power of Satan working against him (Job 1:12), Job first suffered the loss of his wealth and his servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14-15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But Job remained patient through all his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was completed, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3), and giving him the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16b).

While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against Job, because Job was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the coming tribulation, the suffering of Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all his wealth, family and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the coming tribulation: they will need to continue to love God even when God allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) to make war against Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4).

Christians must so love God and so trust God that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus Christ himself in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).

Christians must in no way love their mortal lives on this earth to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians must not love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their family members from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians must not love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24, 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus requires that Christians forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8, 2 Corinthians 5:15, 1 Corinthians 15:3).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

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The Bible gives us clear warning ahead of time about everything that we're going to have to face during the coming tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation 1:3, Revelation 22:16) of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18, so that we can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Mark 13:5-6,21-23, Luke 21:8, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that we can be better prepared mentally to endure the coming tribulation with patience and faith unto the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13), and not get so mad at God over our and our loved ones' awful physical suffering during the coming tribulation (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21) that we wrongly employ our free will to depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Luke 8:13, Matthew 24:9-13), to the ultimate loss of our salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Hebrews 10:38-39).

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Dwylcs said in post #33:

Because we are under a Government of motive, and not coercion and force, there are certain moral obligations to its subjects which ought to respect their free choice.

Based on this Governmental propriety, we as subjects retain the first right of refusal; this also applies to the Beastly realm to come.
Therefore, to subject all peoples to this Beastly kingdom without 'just reason', would not only amount to a breach of this propriety, but also of moral obligation, and a betrayal of trust - which would bring into disrepute the character of God.

That's a dangerous argument, for it could lead some believers to reject God as unjust during the coming tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22). Indeed, that argument is used by atheists to try to bring into disrepute the character of God for God not asking Job's permission to let Satan torment him (Job chapters 1-2). God also didn't ask the righteous church of Smyrna's permission to let Satan torment it (Revelation 2:10). And God won't ask the righteous church in every nation's permission to let Satan torment it during the coming tribulation (Revelation 12:17). God has no obligation to ask our permission before he permits or does anything, because he is our Sovereign Creator (Daniel 4:35, Romans 9:20, Isaiah 40:17).

Indeed, he is so Sovereign as our Creator that he has the right to create only some people to be his elect while creating other people to be the nonelect without giving them any choice in the matter (Romans 9:11-22).

The elect are those individuals who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11, 2 Thessalonians 2:13b), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8b, 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12), and so it's impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus Christ and the gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31, 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or through their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18-2:16). Unsaved people can't possibly understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14, 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

The nonelect can't possibly believe in Jesus Christ and the gospel and be initially saved, even when they're shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), because the ability to believe in Jesus Christ and the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Acts 13:48, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25b, Acts 11:18b). Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers so that on their own they can't repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4, 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

God doesn't love everyone: he hates the nonelect (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens the nonelect in their sinfulness instead of showing them his mercy (Romans 9:18), because he created them to be vessels of his wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4); they were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4); they were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8b, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them or anyone else to commit sin; he never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All people will be justly held accountable on judgment day for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8) because neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of people.

God created nonelect people to be vessels of his wrath instead of vessels of his mercy so that he might eternally make known his wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11), just as God created elect people to be vessels of his mercy so that he might eternally make known his mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).

God wants these aspects of his nature to be made known both to humans and to angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9, 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath won't be known to humans and angels until the devil and his fallen angels and all of unsaved humanity are cast into the eternal punishment of the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11), and saved humans and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the new earth to witness the punishment of the unsaved in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by actually seeing it not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it (by way of contrast) the extent of God's mercy toward them (cf. Lamentations 3:22-23).

Just as "up" can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal co-existence of "down", so God's mercy can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal co-existence of his wrath.

As mere humans, we must be careful not to condemn the way that God himself has chosen to reveal all that he is (Romans 9:20-24), both a loving being (1 John 4:8, John 15:13, Matthew 26:28) and a vengeful being (Hebrews 12:29, Luke 12:49, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9). We mustn't say that it's evil for God not to save everyone and to send the unsaved into eternal punishment (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11). For by saying this we would be making humans more important than God and his wishes. And this is something which Satan causes people to do, just as Jesus at one point "said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men" (Matthew 16:23).

No matter how it may irk the Satanic pride of us humans, wanting to be important like God (Isaiah 14:12-14), so important that God would never even think of not saving all of us and casting some of us into hell forever (Isaiah 14:15, Revelation 20:10,15), we must always remember that it's God's right to do whatever he wants with his creatures (Romans 9:21-23). We must always remember that even all of humanity together is infinitesimal and worth less than nothing compared with God (Isaiah 40:17-18, Daniel 4:35). We must resist our Satanic, human pride (which we can unconsciously disguise with good-sounding words about God's love for us), and completely humble ourselves before God (James 4:7-10, 1 Peter 5:6-8), pleading that he might have mercy upon us sinners (Luke 18:13-14).

The devil would love nothing more than to get us humans in our sinful pride to wrongly reject the God of the Bible (YHWH) as evil, so that we will end up in the lake of fire forever with the devil and his fallen angels (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:43-44). The coming Antichrist, who will be empowered by the devil (2 Thessalonians 2:9, Revelation 13:4), will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), and no doubt one of his chief blasphemies against YHWH will be that YHWH is an evil god. (This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh: 2 John 1:7.) During the coming worldwide reign of the Antichrist, the world will be deceived into rejecting YHWH and worshipping Lucifer (the dragon, the devil) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) instead (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9).

It's the ultimate proof of the humility of believers (James 4:10, Acts 20:19a, Matthew 23:12) for them to accept the facts of double predestination (Romans 9:11-24) and an eternal hell (Matthew 25:41,46) without rejecting YHWH as being evil for these things, because it means that believers have humbly accepted the fact that the wholly-good YHWH (Deuteronomy 32:4, 1 John 1:5) is infinitely more important than even all of humanity together (Isaiah 40:17, Daniel 4:35).

Bible2 · Mar 5, 2012

Dwylcs said in post #33:

Rev 3:10

The seven epistles to seven churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to seven literal first-century local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b), just as Paul wrote epistles to seven literal first-century local church congregations in seven places in the Roman Empire: Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colosse, and Thessalonica.

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal first-century local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) would be kept safe from a persecution which would come upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman Emperor Domitian. For John saw his Revelation vision near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and according to many historians, Domitian heavily persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The literal first-century local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of ten days (Revelation 2:10).

It should be pointed out that the first-century church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (ek) that persecution, for, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the first-century church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself (or from the earth) in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself (or from the classroom) in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can still be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the first-century persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman Empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

-

Regarding Revelation 3:10's immediate context (Revelation 3:11 and Revelation 3:9):

While Revelation 3:10 (like Revelation 2:10) was fulfilled in the first century AD, the second coming of Jesus spoken of in Revelation 3:11 (and also in, for example, Revelation 16:15, spoken during the final stage of the future tribulation) hasn't yet been fulfilled. The second coming won't occur until Revelation 19:7-21, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18/Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Also, even though some 2,000 years will have passed between the time Revelation 3:11 was spoken in the first century AD and the time of the fulfillment of the second coming in our future, Jesus will still come "quickly" (Revelation 3:11), just as all the preceding events of the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-18) will unfold "shortly" after John saw his vision in the first century AD (Revelation 1:1,3). For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of the tribulation and second coming in Revelation chapters 6-19 from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (cf. 2 Peter 3:9).

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Revelation 3:9 and Revelation 2:9b were referring to unbelieving Jews who were outside of the literal first-century local church congregations in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) that were being addressed, but who were living in the cities where those congregations were located.

Unbelieving genetic Jews aren't truly Jews in the sense that even though unbelieving genetic Jews are physically circumcised, they're spiritually uncircumcised (Acts 7:51) and so they're spiritually not Jews (Romans 2:28-29, Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9).

But all believers, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Revelation 3:9b was fulfilled in the first century in the local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b). For Revelation 3:8's "open door" meant that Jesus had made it so that congregation could preach the gospel to the people living in that city (cf. 2 Corinthians 2:12, Colossians 4:3, 1 Corinthians 16:9), which evangelism must have eventually resulted in the salvation of the formerly unbelieving Jews living there (Revelation 3:9b).

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Dwylcs said in post #33:

This will make ready - in 'His' way - willing subjects for their removal . . .

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-trib rapture. Instead, the Bible makes clear that the rapture will be immediately after the tribulation. For Matthew 24:30-31 is referring to the same second coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which is referring to the same second coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Matthew 24:29 shows that these things won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18. That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' second coming and the resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7-20:6, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church and the Antichrist sits in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of a third Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' return, his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30) and then marry in the clouds the obedient portion of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, cf. Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" (Revelation 3:5), before they mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the unsaved armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the just-resurrected and married obedient portion of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9, 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient portion of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Dwylcs · Mar 6, 2012

Hi Bible2
Just so you know, I was asked to provide the 'key' to the understanding of these matters which has been shown to me. I have not hidden behind a 'riddle' but I declared it.
Having been shown this from 'above', as I claim, I've also added that this can only be confirmed from above.
I was given a number of promises in the 70s, and various visions and signs since, some have been fulfilled others are being fulfilled. Without these I could not have written what I have.
I hasten to add that I have been a passenger in the whole experience.

I'd like to say as well that I am coming from a totally different aspect than what you may be used to, or have heard before.
In fact, I respect the different views of the rapture, that's one of the reasons you won't see me much in the debates, for I believe there will be a choice.
The reasons why certain Christians will refuse this Manna to come is deeply personal in some cases. I could touch on that if you want, but out of respect I haven't so far. Suffice is to say that Christ honors those who are either "hot or cold" concerning this matter. He will honor those who suffer for him during this time.

You mention 'exceptions'. Yes I agree, this comes under Governmental Expedience, which although the exercise of it can be inconsistent with the letter of the law, it can never be inconsistent with the spirit of the law.
Please note, I chose my words carefully, I did say "universal" subjugation which is very different to individual subjugation given the obligations of Public Justice.

Let's not forget that while we have the fine example of Job, we also have the examples of Enoch and Elijah - each is different.

Many Christians have already laid down their lives before death by doing the will of God - not their own - in this way they are giving their lives for God. Jesus said, he that does the "will of my Father" shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
It's about a love commitment, for without it, even giving one's body to be burnt profits them nothing.

"That's a dangerous argument, for it could lead some believers to reject God as unjust during the coming tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22). Indeed, that argument is used by atheists to try to bring into disrepute the character of God for God not asking Job's permission to let Satan torment him (Job chapters 1-2).

Again I did say "all peoples", and I have mentioned "Governmental Expedience" which covers the 'exceptions' you speak of.
It is even more dangerous to be neglectful of moral obligation where Public Justice demands it, and would bring into disrepute God's character if he did not offer a choice beforehand, especially in this momentous and far-reaching imposition over "everyone's" lives. This, without choice, would amount to 'indefensible encroachment' - and ironically, it would be completely consistent with the nature of the Adversarial Government to come, which it is at total odds with.

You mention Romans 3: 9-12
Let's not forget the 'victims' which it implies later in the passage, when it says 'Their feet are swift to shed blood'. This is a case in point where many things are inadvertently overlooked in scripture, for I have not heard anyone mention this point when referring to the passage in over forty years. This point, as well as others, is very significant in the context.

It's most important to note here that it is to the 'poor in spirit' whom God looks to for rest, the one's Jesus spoke of first - after Israel waited thousands of years for him to arrive.
He has built his whole ministry around caring for and defending these 'least' first. So what is first for him in his estimation is first for me. "The last shall be first, and the first shall be last."
If we factor in 'His' perspective, we get a totally different view of the whole picture.

This is the premise of the Gospel, which melds inexorably with his character.
All views which take into consideration 'their' cause first can only be eminent.

Dwylcs

Bible2 · Mar 14, 2012

Dwylcs said in post #36:

I respect the different views of the rapture.

Note again that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-trib rapture. See the last part of post #35.

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Dwylcs said in post #36:

The reasons why certain Christians will refuse this Manna to come is deeply personal in some cases.

The true manna, or true bread from heaven, came down from heaven 2,000 years ago (John 6:31-38). We eat of it presently, whenever we partake of the divine flesh and blood of communion (John 6:51-58, Matthew 26:26-28, 1 Corinthians 10:16, 1 Corinthians 11:27-30).

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Dwylcs said in post #36:

You mention 'exceptions'. Yes I agree, this comes under Governmental Expedience, which although the exercise of it can be inconsistent with the letter of the law, it can never be inconsistent with the spirit of the law.

Note that neither the letter nor the spirit of the law of God ever requires that he give people a choice before they suffer and die.

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Dwylcs said in post #36:

I did say "universal" subjugation which is very different to individual subjugation given the obligations of Public Justice.

We need to be interested only in Divine Justice (i.e. that which is shown in the scriptures), which doesn't require that the Sovereign God give people a choice before they enter into even universal subjugation.

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Dwylcs said in post #36:

Let's not forget that while we have the fine example of Job, we also have the examples of Enoch and Elijah - each is different.

And none shows God giving them a choice before what happened to them happened to them.

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Dwylcs said in post #36:

Jesus said, he that does the "will of my Father" shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

That's true regardless of whether they live or actually, physically die (1 Thessalonians 5:10), and regardless of whether they're given any choice about whether they live or die.

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Dwylcs said in post #36:

. . . would bring into disrepute God's character if he did not offer a choice beforehand . . .

God not offering a choice beforehand, will bring his character into disrepute only in the eyes of those who want to reject what the scriptures show in order to follow their own, man-made (or even Satanic) ideas of what's right (cf. 2 Timothy 4:3-4, 1 Timothy 4:1), as was shown in detail in the "dangerous argument" part of post #34.

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Dwylcs said in post #36:

This, without choice, would amount to 'indefensible encroachment' . . .

Actually, it wouldn't, if we stick with what the scriptures show: God has no obligation to ask our permission before he permits or does anything, because he is our Sovereign Creator (Daniel 4:35, Romans 9:20, Isaiah 40:17).

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Dwylcs said in post #36:

. . . and ironically, it would be completely consistent with the nature of the Adversarial Government to come, which it is at total odds with.

Only like light is totally at odds with darkness, despite them both "subjugating" the whole world each day and night without asking anyone's permission.

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Dwylcs said in post #36:

You mention Romans 3: 9-12
Let's not forget the 'victims' which it implies later in the passage, when it says 'Their feet are swift to shed blood'. This is a case in point where many things are inadvertently overlooked in scripture, for I have not heard anyone mention this point when referring to the passage in over forty years. This point, as well as others, is very significant in the context.

Note that it says nothing about the victims being given a choice beforehand.

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Dwylcs said in post #36:

He has built his whole ministry around caring for and defending these 'least' first.

But he doesn't have to physically defend them (Luke 21:16), and he doesn't have to give them a choice beforehand if he doesn't.

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Dwylcs said in post #36 (in the signature):

We are reminded how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out.

Indeed, meaning that we shouldn't presume to limit his Sovereignty with man-made ideas.

Also, the ode to the Sovereign Creator in Romans 11:33-36 is in response to Romans 11:32, where the Sovereign "God hath concluded them all in unbelief" (i.e. subjugated them all into unbelief), without asking their permission first.

Dwylcs · Mar 14, 2012

Just as a reminder, I did preface my post saying that 'this can only be confirmed from above'.

Dwylcs said in post #36:

I respect the different views of the rapture.

"Note again that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-trib rapture. See the last part of post #35".

I believe it does.

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Dwylcs said in post #36:

The reasons why certain Christians will refuse this Manna to come is deeply personal in some cases.

"The true manna, or true bread from heaven, came down from heaven 2,000 years ago (John 6:31-38). We eat of it presently, whenever we partake of the divine flesh and blood of communion (John 6:51-58, Matthew 26:26-28, 1 Corinthians 10:16, 1 Corinthians 11:27-30)."

Presently we enjoy the first fruits of the Gospel, the Manna to come is a deeper word which the Church as a whole doesn't know about yet. It is mentioned a number of times in scripture. It is part of the mystery.
It will sanctify the flesh, and will make those who accept it "One" with the Lord - John 17, Acts 2: 17 - presently the vanity, the lust of the flesh hampers his works.
Is the church one? Is it united? Does it please the Lord as Enoch pleased the Lord? Do Christians suffer from the flesh, the lusts, and vanity mentioned in Romans?
Has God poured out his Spirit upon 'all flesh' yet?
When he does pour out his Spirit all these matters will be dealt with simultaneously with the outpouring of the Manna from Heaven. This will be more wonderful than we can imagine.
It is then that the keeping of it, misuse of it, or the rejection of it will determine individual outcome, based on choice - which is "Just", and given the incomparable differences between God's government and the Devil's, this is the wisdom of God making a 'just' way to give all peoples a chance to escape the kingdom of the Devil.
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Dwylcs said in post #36:

You mention 'exceptions'. Yes I agree, this comes under Governmental Expedience, which although the exercise of it can be inconsistent with the letter of the law, it can never be inconsistent with the spirit of the law.

"Note that neither the letter nor the spirit of the law of God ever requires that he give people a choice before they suffer and die."

This is a different level altogether.
I have written a number of posts on the choices we never had - the last verse in your post in its fullness answers the question.
Again, there is a different level of governmental agencies which have different levels of authority over us, which we are exhorted to respect.
God's authority is one where he is able to deal/minister with people on a deeper level who are committed to him, such as Job.
No one else, who has not been committed to God, has suffered like Job has, as far as we know. The devil's planned onslaught upon Job was mitigated by a stipulation from God that he would 'save his life.' This is in stark contrast to the Great tribulation, where the Beast is given power to overcome the Saints - the stipulation has changed. Why?
Just as we Christians often pray 'have thine own way Lord', Job was committed as well to God. This in Job's experience vindicated God utilizing governmental expedience wisely to bring about a better end.

Now shift this scenario to a different level, to people who aren't committed to God. Such an execution of volition to abandon them wholesale to the mercy of the Devil without a very good reason would be indefensible.
Moreover, Job's sufferings, as severe as they were, cannot be properly compared to the Great Tribulation, for as Jesus says there 'shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be'.
It's so important to keep this in mind.
Again we are comparing an individual subjugation of one committed to God to a comparatively different tribulation suffered - to the "universal" subjugation of 'uncommitted' people - and those believers who for reasons of their own reject the Manna - to an incomparable tribulation to come.

This is clearly Divinely Just when taking into account that the most precious word of his gracious outpouring "on all flesh" has either been refused or blatantly misused.

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Dwylcs said in post #36:

I did say "universal" subjugation which is very different to individual subjugation given the obligations of Public Justice.

"We need to be interested only in Divine Justice (i.e. that which is shown in the scriptures), which doesn't require that the Sovereign God give people a choice before they enter into even universal subjugation."

Please note: God cannot do anything unjust, and the momentous difference between life under the existing Government of motive of God, compared to the universal subjugation of the world to the Devil - Darkness vs Light.

(Instances of Public Justice
1 The work of the Cross served the highest good of public interest, etc.
2 Israel's insistence on being ruled by a King was allowed by God, even though he wasn't in favor of it.
3 The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
4 Jesus washing the disciples feet.
5 Jesus affirmed man's individual choice. "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: "if" any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." John 6:51
etc.)

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Dwylcs said in post #36:

Let's not forget that while we have the fine example of Job, we also have the examples of Enoch and Elijah - each is different.

"And none shows God giving them a choice before what happened to them happened to them."

They were committed to God and his will for their lives, this was 'their' choice.

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Dwylcs said in post #36:

Jesus said, he that does the "will of my Father" shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"That's true regardless of whether they live or actually, physically die (1 Thessalonians 5:10), and regardless of whether they're given any choice about whether they live or die."

Death was a consequence of transgression, not based upon Governmental volition.
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Dwylcs said in post #36:

. . . would bring into disrepute God's character if he did not offer a choice beforehand . . .

"God not offering a choice beforehand, will bring his character into disrepute only in the eyes of those who want to reject what the scriptures show in order to follow their own, man-made (or even Satanic) ideas of what's right (cf. 2 Timothy 4:3-4, 1 Timothy 4:1), as was shown in detail in the "dangerous argument" part of post #34."

When the Manna comes it will sanctify people readying them for the Lord to take them. The enemy having lost his foothold on them through the flesh, will be reduced to seducing them away from this new wine, this Manna - this is what this means.
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Dwylcs said in post #36:

This, without choice, would amount to 'indefensible encroachment' . . .

"Actually, it wouldn't, if we stick with what the scriptures show: God has no obligation to ask our permission before he permits or does anything, because he is our Sovereign Creator (Daniel 4:35, Romans 9:20, Isaiah 40:17)."

He doesn't do anything contrary to his character, 'for his tender mercies are over all his works'. We are given many other scriptures as well so that we can have confidence in him, and not be subject to slavish fear.
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Dwylcs said in post #36:

. . . and ironically, it would be completely consistent with the nature of the Adversarial Government to come, which it is at total odds with.

"Only like light is totally at odds with darkness, despite them both "subjugating" the whole world each day and night without asking anyone's permission."

Again this comes under different level of government, and each person is subject to many things, in other words 'our lot' which comes under Public Justice, for the highest well being of all - Rom 11:32. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
"That he might have mercy upon all."

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Dwylcs said in post #36:

You mention Romans 3: 9-12
Let's not forget the 'victims' which it implies later in the passage, when it says 'Their feet are swift to shed blood'. This is a case in point where many things are inadvertently overlooked in scripture, for I have not heard anyone mention this point when referring to the passage in over forty years. This point, as well as others, is very significant in the context.

"Note that it says nothing about the victims being given a choice beforehand."

Again, these are the consequences of the 'fall' of man, not by Governmental volition.

My original point was that many things are inadvertently 'missed' in scripture.
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Dwylcs said in post #36:

He has built his whole ministry around caring for and defending these 'least' first.

"But he doesn't have to physically defend them (Luke 21:16), and he doesn't have to give them a choice beforehand if he doesn't."

Where the case exceeds the bounds of Government under God, and is given tacit approval by him to be subject to the curse of the realm of the Beast, there needs to be a good reason.
This was the main question which I originally asked, so far there has been no reply.
"The curse causeless shall not come." Prov 26:2
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Dwylcs said in post #36 (in the signature):

We are reminded how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out.

"Indeed, meaning that we shouldn't presume to limit his Sovereignty with man-made ideas."

Yes, nor interpret that Sovereignty without taking into account his revealed nature; the primary focus of his heart; his Government, and the constraints of it in relation to righteousness, his nature, and the respect for mankind's choice.

"Also, the ode to the Sovereign Creator in Romans 11:33-36 is in response to Romans 11:32, where the Sovereign "God hath concluded them all in unbelief" (i.e. subjugated them all into unbelief), without asking their permission first."

I am glad you mentioned Romans 11:32
"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."

This comes under Governmental Expedience.

If we compare the enemy's start to ours, we will see why subjecting us to a state where we could not believe (as the devil would have automatically done so) is wise for the ultimate reason that this allows God to exercise mercy upon all.
Here is a few - comparing the devil start and ours:
His start was enhancing to him; ours depleted us.
He had no enemies; we are beset with them.
He began with purity; we are enveloped with corruption.
He began with liberty; we are manacled with constraint.
He was fortunate; we are unfortunates.
He was secure; we are born susceptible.
He was bathed in goodness; we are at the mercy of every evil wind.
He enjoyed tranquility; we are born into trouble.
He didn't know hate; we suffer it's repression, etc, etc.

This was all for mercy in the wisdom of God.

Just to add, neither legislation nor sanctions subdue the heart, but real consideration/respect does.
There is great grace to come, the 'word' which is 'Him', is the sanctifier of the heart and flesh.

Dwylcs

Bible2 · Mar 21, 2012

Dwylcs said in post #38:

I did preface my post saying that 'this can only be confirmed from above'.

Note that it will never be truly confirmed from above to anyone (no matter what anyone may imagine: Jeremiah 23:28), because it's not in accord with the scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16-4:4).

I believe it does.

On what verses do your base your belief that the Bible teaches or requires a pre-trib rapture?

Presently we enjoy the first fruits of the Gospel, the Manna to come is a deeper word which the Church as a whole doesn't know about yet. It is mentioned a number of times in scripture.

Please provide verse references for all of the times.

It is part of the mystery.

Which scriptural mystery are you referring to?

It will sanctify the flesh, and will make those who accept it "One" with the Lord - John 17, Acts 2: 17 . . .

Regarding the sanctifying of the flesh, note that even the animal sacrifices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law sanctified the flesh (Hebrews 9:13). And Christians who have repented from all their sins and confessed them to God are already wholly sanctified, in spirit, soul, and body (1 Thessalonians 5:23, 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, 2 Timothy 2:21, 1 John 1:9), so that even the flesh of their unbelieving spouses and children is already sanctified (1 Corinthians 7:14).

Such Christians have already been sanctified by God the Father (Jude 1:1), and by the Holy Spirit (Romans 15:16, 1 Corinthians 6:11, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Peter 1:2), through faith in Jesus (Acts 26:18, 1 Corinthians 1:2,30) and his sacrifice for our sins (Hebrews 10:10,14,29, Hebrews 13:12), and through faith in God's Word the Bible (Ephesians 5:26, John 17:17, Acts 20:32), just as even the meat that Christians eat is sanctified by his Word (1 Timothy 4:5).

And because such Christians have already been wholly sanctified, they're already one with Jesus (Hebrews 2:11), and already one with their fellow believers in the Word (John 17:20-21, Colossians 3:15-16). They're already one body joined to Jesus its head (Colossians 1:18, Ephesians 5:23, Colossians 2:19). They're one body through their faith in Jesus (Romans 12:5, Ephesians 4:4-5) and his sacrifice for their sins (Ephesians 2:16), and through partaking of the Holy Spirit and baptism (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-5), and through partaking of the one bread of communion (1 Corinthians 10:17), which bread is the true manna from heaven (John 6:31-38,51-58, Matthew 26:26-28, 1 Corinthians 10:16, 1 Corinthians 11:27-30).

-

Regarding Acts 2:17, note that just as when Matthew says "this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias" (Matthew 3:3-4) he means that John the Baptist is the fulfillment of Isaiah 40:3, so when Peter says "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel" (Acts 2:16-18) he means that what happened at the Pentecost in Acts 2 began the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-29. For just as Joel 2:28-29 prophesied the receiving of the Holy Spirit in the "last days" (Acts 2:16-17), so the disciples had just received the Holy Spirit at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:4), and this happened in the "last days" because the "last days" began at the first coming of Jesus (Hebrews 1:2).

Also, Acts 2:17 continues to be fulfilled today whenever a Christian receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46, Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6).

Also, note that the original Greek word translated as "all" in Acts 2:17 can simply mean "all manner of" (Acts 10:12), just as the original Hebrew word translated as "all" in Joel 2:28 can simply mean "all manner of" (Leviticus 19:23). Neither word has to mean absolutely all.

Does it please the Lord as Enoch pleased the Lord?

Note that, despite what's sometimes claimed, Enoch wasn't translated into the third heaven so that he wouldn't have to go through the flood (along with righteous Noah in the ark, who wasn't given any choice), for Enoch (Noah's great grandfather) was translated (also without being given any choice) 669 years before the flood.

Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. This is based on verses in the Bible which make it possible to work back from the year that Solomon's temple began to be built:

Historians say that Solomon's temple began to be built about 966 BC.
And 1 Kings 6:1 says that Solomon's temple began to be built 480 years after the Exodus of Israel from Egypt.
And Exodus 12:40-41 says that Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus.
And Genesis 47:9 shows that Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 years old.
And Genesis 25:26 says that Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 years old.
And Genesis 21:5 says that Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 years old.
And Genesis 11:26 shows that Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 years old.
And Genesis 11:24 says that Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 years old.
And Genesis 11:22 says that Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 years old.
And Genesis 11:20 says that Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 years old.
And Genesis 11:18 says that Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 years old.
And Genesis 11:16 says that Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 years old.
And Genesis 11:14 says that Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 years old.
And Genesis 11:12 says that Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 years old.
And Genesis 11:10 says that Arphaxad was born two years after the flood.

So all we have to do is add up the numbers of years above to see that Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC.

Then, to determine when Enoch was translated, we need to work further back:

If Arphaxad was born two years after the flood, then Arphaxad was born about 2456 BC.
And Genesis 11:10 says that Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 years old.
And Genesis 11:10 and Genesis 7:6 taken together show that Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 years old.
And Genesis 5:28-29 says that Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 years old.
And Genesis 5:25 says that Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 years old.
And Genesis 5:21 says that Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 years old.

Adding up the numbers of years above, we find that Enoch was born about 3492 BC. He was translated when he was 365 years old (Genesis 5:23-24), so he was translated about 3127 BC, 669 years before the flood.

Adding those 669 years to Enoch's age of 365 years, we find that Enoch was 1,034 years old at the time of the flood. This means that had he stayed on the earth, he would have almost certainly died from old age before the flood came (cf. Isaiah 57:1). For Methuselah (Noah's grandfather) was the longest-living person who stayed on the earth, and Methuselah died at the age of 969 (Genesis 5:27).

Methuselah died the same year as the flood. For Enoch was born about 3492 BC, and Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 years old (Genesis 5:21). So Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and he died 969 years later, which was about 2458 BC, the same year as the flood. Methuselah could have died of old age right before the flood started. God could have waited to bring the flood until after Methuselah died of old age and was buried.

Lamech (Noah's father) had already died, some 5 years before the flood. For Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 years old (Genesis 5:25). So Lamech was born about 3240 BC, and he died 777 years later (Genesis 5:31), which was about 2463 BC, 5 years before the flood.

. . . this is the wisdom of God making a 'just' way to give all peoples a chance to escape the kingdom of the Devil.

Note that God is still just despite the fact that he doesn't give the nonelect any way to ever be saved (see the "nonelect" part of post #34).

This is a different level altogether.

How is it different at all?

Bible2 · Mar 21, 2012

Dwylcs said in post #38:

... the last verse in your post in its fullness answers the question.

Romans 11:32 means only that all the elect (Romans 11:28) are shown mercy with regard to their initial salvation as individuals (Romans 9:11-24), not that all people will be shown mercy. For some people were created by God to be nonelect vessels of his wrath who will never be shown mercy (Romans 9:11-22, Matthew 13:38-42, John 8:42-47).

No one else, who has not been committed to God, has suffered like Job has, as far as we know.

No unbeliever has ever lost his wealth, family, and health, like Job did? Not even the unbelieving Jews in the Holocaust? Not even the unbelieving people in the death camps of Pol Pot, or Mao, or Stalin?

The devil's planned onslaught upon Job was mitigated by a stipulation from God that he would 'save his life.' This is in stark contrast to the Great tribulation, where the Beast is given power to overcome the Saints - the stipulation has changed. Why?

Note that the stipulation with regard to Job wasn't universal at the time of Job, for Satan since the Fall of man has always had the power of death over all of mankind, whether believers or not (Hebrews 2:14, Romans 5:12). And he's always had the power of death even over obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10, which refers to a 1st century congregation). Nothing will change in this regard during the future tribulation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12-13).

Now shift this scenario to a different level, to people who aren't committed to God. Such an execution of volition to abandon them wholesale to the mercy of the Devil without a very good reason would be indefensible.

Note that the very good reason was given in the latter part of post #34, beginning with the paragraph that starts "God created nonelect people to be vessels of his wrath".

Moreover, Job's sufferings, as severe as they were, cannot be properly compared to the Great Tribulation, for as Jesus says there 'shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be'.

Matthew 24:21 is referring to a future, worldwide tribulation like has never affected the whole world before. Matthew 24:21 doesn't require that the future tribulation will be worse for every individual than Job's personal tribulation, or the tribulation of the Jews in the Holocaust, or the tribulation of the early church (e.g. Revelation 2:10). For some Christians will be protected on the earth during the future tribulation (Revelation 12:6).

God cannot do anything unjust, and the momentous difference between life under the existing Government of motive of God, compared to the universal subjugation of the world to the Devil - Darkness vs Light.

Note that (as was pointed out in post #37), while light is totally different than darkness, they both "subjugate" the whole world every day and night without asking anyone's permission.

Jesus affirmed man's individual choice. "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: "if" any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." John 6:51

John 6:51's "if" refers only to the choice of whether or not one will eat the true manna (the divine flesh) of the bread of communion (John 6:31-38,51-58, Matthew 26:26-28, 1 Corinthians 10:16, 1 Corinthians 11:27-30), not to any choice of whether or not one is elect (Romans 9:11-24), or to any choice of whether or not one will go through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9).

They were committed to God and his will for their lives, this was 'their' choice.

Yes, but still, God didn't give Enoch and Elijah a choice before what happened to them happened to them, just as he gave no choice to obedient Job, or to the Jews in the Holocaust, or to the obedient 1st century church in Revelation 2:10; and just as he will give no choice to the obedient church in Revelation 12:17, which will end up being blessed (not cursed) in its dying during the future tribulation (Revelation 14:12-13).

Death was a consequence of transgression, not based upon Governmental volition.

Note that death is based on divine governmental volition, because it's by divine governmental volition that the wages of sin is death (Ezekiel 18:4, Romans 6:23), without having to ask any sinner's permission. And even human government has been granted the power of capital punishment for crimes (Romans 13:4), without having to ask any criminal's permission.

He doesn't do anything contrary to his character, 'for his tender mercies are over all his works'.

Note that Psalms 145:9's original Hebrew word (kol, H3605) translated as "all" can simply mean "all manner of" (e.g. Leviticus 19:23, 1 Chronicles 22:15, Nehemiah 13:16). It doesn't have to mean absolutely all. We can't understand the Hebrew of Psalm 145:9 in a way that contradicts other verses of the Bible, such as Malachi 1:3, Romans 9:11-23, and Matthew 25:41,46, which show that God doesn't love everyone, and that he doesn't show mercy to everyone.

We are given many other scriptures as well so that we can have confidence in him, and not be subject to slavish fear.

Regarding having confidence in him, Philippians 1:6, for example, does mean that God will complete the work he has begun in saved people. But other passages show that he will do this only if they continue to cooperate with him and work along with him (1 Corinthians 3:9a, 2 Corinthians 5:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:12-14), and don't wrongly employ their free will to, for example, become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

Regarding fear, believers are commanded to fear God (1 Peter 2:17, Luke 12:5, Hebrews 12:28-29, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). They must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46). They must work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b, 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8), knowing the terror of the coming judgment of believers (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), at the second coming of Jesus, when some believers will end up losing their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8).

Where the case exceeds the bounds of Government under God, and is given tacit approval by him to be subject to the curse of the realm of the Beast, there needs to be a good reason.

It would be the same good reason that innocent Job was subject to Satan's curse (see post #34), or the innocent 1st-century church of Smyrna was subject to Satan's curse (Revelation 2:10), or the Jews in Europe were subject to the Holocaust, or the people in Russia were subject to Stalin, or the people in Cambodia were subject to Pol Pot, or the people in China were subject to Mao.

This was the main question which I originally asked, so far there has been no reply.
"The curse causeless shall not come." Prov 26:2

Note that there was a reply (see post #34).

Yes, nor interpret that Sovereignty without taking into account his revealed nature; the primary focus of his heart; his Government, and the constraints of it in relation to righteousness, his nature, and the respect for mankind's choice.

Note that nothing with regard to "his revealed nature; the primary focus of his heart; his Government, and the constraints of it in relation to righteousness" requires that in his Divine Sovereignty, God need have any "respect for mankind's choice" at all (Daniel 4:35, Romans 9:20, Isaiah 40:17).

. . . we are at the mercy of every evil wind.

Which includes that of the future tribulation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12-13), and with no choice at all given to us.

. . . neither legislation nor sanctions subdue the heart, but real consideration/respect does.

A real consideration/respect for God, i.e. a real fear of God (e.g. Revelation 14:7), is based on his threatened sanctions (e.g. Revelation 14:10-11). Satan would love to deceive us into not having this fear of God, for he knows that it's the lack of a fear of God which keeps people in wickedness (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and that it's by the fear of God that people depart from wickedness (Proverbs 16:6b, Proverbs 14:27, Proverbs 3:7). And Satan can make his deceptions appear as if they're on the side of good (2 Corinthians 11:14), when in fact his deceptions reject the sound doctrine of the Bible (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:3-4) when the entire Bible is taken into consideration, instead of taking just a verse by itself and trying to misapply it (e.g. Matthew 4:6).

There is great grace to come . . .

Yes, but not until immediately after the tribulation, at the revelation of Jesus (1 Peter 1:13, 1 Peter 4:12-13, Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7-20:6).

Comparing 1 Thes.4, with 1 Cor.15.

Forgiven

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... and God saw that it was good.

IMO...

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... and God saw that it was good.

IMO...

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