comes to kill, steal, and destroy?

ABlessedMan said:

Curious.

So, it would seem that you would be of the mind that Paul, in the instance of his thorn, was not submitting to God? Would I be correct in saying this?

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Not at all. You can resist the devil and be attacked. One has nothing to do with the other. When you are not resisting the devil, you are submitting to the devil. Therefore you would be resisting God. When you're submitted to God you are resisting the devil and when you are submitting to the devil you're resisting God. It's pretty much that simple. We complicate it. I actually learned this at Rhema Bible Training Center in Doug Jones class. I believe it was life of honor.

pdudgeon said:

that's interesting! the way i have heard it taught was that it was Paul's pride and self-righteousness that needed to be submitted to God, and thus the buffeting and subsequent pleas to be released from the buffeting which Paul saw as a hinderance affecting his ability to minister in an even greater manner.

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I believe Paul was submitted. I believe the phrase exalted above measure has been misinterpreted by people as pride. It means because of the revelation that was given to him would cause him to be "exalted above measure" or "raised up, lifted up and thrown beyond the usual mark." That would mean that Paul with the Revelation that was given him would cause him to live at a higher level. The level of a righteous man full of grace. Satan didn't want that so a thorn was given to him to distract him.

It couldn't of been pride because Satan would have wanted Paul to get into pride. Satan was trying to stop Paul from living this revelation out.

ABlessedMan said:

I would be more of the mind that Paul fully submits to God. But as he taught us in Romans 7 sin is still in our flesh making us do things we will not to do. The messenger sent to buffet Paul needed some resisting, not a wave of God's mighty hand to make it go away. All the while, Paul was fully submitted to God, preaching the gospel, teaching the church, planting new churches, etc.

In other words, it wasn't submitting to God that made the buffeting stop, it was taking up his dominion and authority over the buffeting messenger of the enemy. God's grace was sufficient.

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Paul was submitted. Grace is Gods divine power and ability working in me and through me to give me His power and ability to accomplish the things I cannot do in my own power and ability...

So when God said My Grace is sufficient...He was saying, Paul, My divine power and ability working in you and through you giving you the power and ability to accomplish the things you can't do in your own power and ability is sufficient.

Now as far as Romans 7, Paul was weaving in and out of the law and grace for a few chapters. I think the church as a whole has misinterpreted that also.

pdudgeon said:

it might be more accurate to say that he learned to submit to God concerning that matter, since Paul asked and received the same answer from God three times before accepting the answer.

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Sorry, I wasn't referring to Paul but rather to the op... The devil kills, steals and destroys a lot of times because of a lack of knowledge on our part or because some have rejected knowledge...

I was praying about someone who was in trouble because of bad doctrine and i was excusing them because they didn't know any better and God corrected me, he said there was a time you didn't know any better either but you went to the word and found the answer...

The lesson in this for me is that we are all responsible for our doctrine, the truth is there and available to all who will pursue it... We are without excuse...

Optimax said:

Guess we need another "thorn in the flesh" thread.

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Not another one, these have been done to death in the last few years...

PreacherMike said:

I was praying about someone who was in trouble because of bad doctrine and i was excusing them because they didn't know any better and God corrected me, he said there was a time you didn't know any better either but you went to the word and found the answer...

The lesson in this for me is that we are all responsible for our doctrine, the truth is there and available to all who will pursue it... We are without excuse...

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This is awesome!
______________
a friend,

Harry

pdudgeon said:

that's interesting! the way i have heard it taught was that it was Paul's pride and self-righteousness that needed to be submitted to God, and thus the buffeting and subsequent pleas to be released from the buffeting which Paul saw as a hinderance affecting his ability to minister in an even greater manner.

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As in "Paul has pride" or as in "so he doesn't get prideful?"
Here, Paul won't boast. Nobody should think overly highly of him; and he will not allow himself to be exalted...

Satan would love to see Paul succumb to the same pride that fell him. He sends a messenger to buffet, to push and goad Paul into prideful thoughts and actions. Paul wants none of that. He will not boast. In fact, he cried to God three times. But God says "My Grace..." In other words: I know you're submitted to me; now resist the temptations.

**double post**

importunity said:

Not at all.

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Glad that we agree here.

importunity said:

You can resist the devil and be attacked. One has nothing to do with the other.

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This is true.

importunity said:

When you are not resisting the devil, you are submitting to the devil. Therefore you would be resisting God. When you're submitted to God you are resisting the devil and when you are submitting to the devil you're resisting God.

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This is not true. If I'm not resisting the devil I am not necessarily submitting to his ways.
(Of course you have to juxtapose that with the likes of Matthew 12:30 "He who is not with Me is against Me" and stories like the Sons of Sceva.)

The same as when we get sick. Why do we? Well, we have ceased walking in the blessing, we've entered the curse. But does that mean that the devil brought the sickness (always!)? Did the devil necessarily talk us into embracing sickness? Whoever says 'Yes' gives the devil too much credit.

We are carnal and we will tend to follow our carnal nature -- with or without the devil's suggestions. We follow a righteous path because of the leading of the Holy Spirit AND because in our free choice we chose to listen. When the devil comes with thoughts, ideas and suggestions to lead us astray, it is ADDED influence to our carnal nature.

So I can submit to God and still be buffeted of the devil (Paul's situation). I must resist. I can submit to God and do nothing about the buffeting...I will hurt. It's free choice, and although I may not be walking in the full blessing, I am certainly submitted to God and not the devil. To say that in "choosing" to not stand bold and resist the buffeting means that I am not submitting to God would be to say that to submit to God is giving up my free choice. These are not mutually exclusive.

Now in this I'm not saying that because of free choice it is in any way a good thing to choose to "do nothing." We are to put on the armor of God, we are to wield the sword, we are to defend, we are to resist, we are to fight. To do this perfectly would be wonderful! But we are carnal creatures who have put on the new man, but who, according to Paul, strive to do what is right but don't always succeed. We get tired; we get selfish; we get inward. When we do things that are not perfectly righteous, it isn't always the devil who led us there: sometimes it is simply us.

But just like a two year old who will kick and scream when it is time to put away the toys and eat lunch or take a nap, we kick and scream too. But Daddy will take us in His arms and hug us and love us and help us to grow up to be the strongest that we can be.

ABlessedMan said:

As in "Paul has pride" or as in "so he doesn't get prideful?"

2 Corinthians 12:5-7
5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.
​

Here, Paul won't boast. Nobody should think overly highly of him; and he will not allow himself to be exalted...

Satan would love to see Paul succumb to the same pride that fell him. He sends a messenger to buffet, to push and goad Paul into prideful thoughts and actions. Paul wants none of that. He will not boast. In fact, he cried to God three times. But God says "My Grace..." In other words: I know you're submitted to me; now resist the temptations.

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Don't want to drag up Paul's thorn again, I just have one point to share in, (2 Cor.12:6),.....second half states, "but I refrain lest "anyone" should think of "me" above what he sees me to be or hears from me.

I agree with you Bob, that Paul won't boast or be prideful, but I see Paul does not want the "people" to put "him" on a pedestal because of his abundance of revelations.

Paul wants the Corinthians to respect him and acknowledge his apostolic authority but Paul didn't want "them" to worship "him"....Paul's desire was not to draw attention to himself, but rather, his desire was that Christ should be glorified, not Paul.... Most Christians do not understand this part and concentrate on him being puffed up with with his own pride. Paul will not allow "himself to be exalted, nor will he allow the "people" to exalt "him".....or elevate "him" or put "him" on a pedestal.

There were two occasions where the people were exalting Paul and Barnabas as "God's" located in, (Acts 14:8-16) and (Acts 28:1-6). The first one was the healing of the lame man, and the second one is when Paul was bitten by a viper in the island of Malta.



I hope this adds to this post from my comments.
____________________
a friend,

Harry

ABlessedMan said:

Curious.

So, it would seem that you would be of the mind that Paul, in the instance of his thorn, was not submitting to God? Would I be correct in saying this?

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Hi Bob...

...erm...I'm jumping in here...and I haven't seen the brilliant things others have written...but as you know me, you know I have an allergic reaction to Paul's thorn.

James said, "Resist the devil...and he will flee..."

Paul pleaded with God three times instead...I see a nuance. Remember what the thorn in the flesh was? Not sin. Not sickness. Not blindness. Not dandruff, excema or psoriasis...It was a pain in the neck, "a messenger of satan..." God's strength was perfected in Paul's weakness, and Paul realized that with that perfect strength, he was already equipped to deal with satan's messenger...so he could boast in weakness because in weakness he wielded perfect strength...and satan fled. Praying three times was not the next logical step...if he was, indeed, as God told him, already equipped...but oh what a revelation he received for praying! And what great fodder for myriad threads to come on every forum through the ages to come!

It's amazing how we look at that triumphant passage, and claim defeat! Or we allow sages and doctors to make stuff up that doesn't make any sense at all, as if God in Paul was saying, as the gnostics who wrote The Robe would have us believe, that Paul was far better off paralized under demonic oppression than he would have been fulfilling the promise of God: "Whom the Son sets free is truly free..."

tbeachhead said:

Hi Bob...

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Hi Pete ... good to see ya.

tbeachhead said:

...erm...I'm jumping in here...and I haven't seen the brilliant things others have written...but as you know me, you know I have an allergic reaction to Paul's thorn.

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LOL. Gladly most here will teach is closer to right than what you might find out in the rest of the worl...er...church.

tbeachhead said:

James said, "Resist the devil...and he will flee..."

Paul pleaded with God three times instead...I see a nuance. Remember what the thorn in the flesh was? Not sin. Not sickness. Not blindness. Not dandruff, excema or psoriasis...It was a pain in the neck, "a messenger of satan..." God's strength was perfected in Paul's weakness, and Paul realized that with that perfect strength, he was already equipped to deal with satan's messenger...so he could boast in weakness because in weakness he wielded perfect strength...and satan fled. Praying three times was not the next logical step...if he was, indeed, as God told him, already equipped...but oh what a revelation he received for praying! And what great fodder for myriad threads to come on every forum through the ages to come!

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Amen!!

tbeachhead said:

It's amazing how we look at that triumphant passage, and claim defeat! Or we allow sages and doctors to make stuff up that doesn't make any sense at all, as if God in Paul was saying, as the gnostics who wrote The Robe would have us believe, that Paul was far better off paralized under demonic oppression than he would have been fulfilling the promise of God: "Whom the Son sets free is truly free..."

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Too many people justifying why their beliefs are strong enough, and not wanting to ante up to what God has put on the table. Well, I guess "ante up" would be a misnomer, since it was already PAID. Receiving what's been won.....

.

ABlessedMan said:

This is not true. If I'm not resisting the devil I am not necessarily submitting to his ways.
.

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What I said was true. You are either submitting to God or the devil. Directly or indirectly. Submitting to your flesh or this world system would be submitting to the devil. A person submitted is one yielded to another. Anytime you are not yielded to Gods way you are yielded to another. You don't have to be satanic or demon possessed to be yielded to the devil. The world as a whole is yielded to the devil.

tturt said:

The enemy comes to kill, steal, and destroy.What Scriptures define these?

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In John 10:8 Jesus says "All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. "

It is John 10:10 that he says "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly."

So, those that came to "steal, kill, and destroy" were everyone who came before Jesus.

lucaspa said:

In John 10:8 Jesus says "All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. "

It is John 10:10 that he says "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly."

So, those that came to "steal, kill, and destroy" were everyone who came before Jesus.

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A hireling is the thief here, this passage is not talking about the devil.

I look back on Lot , although a righteous man he had become tainted somewhat by his surrounding from the culture. Yet God chose to spare him. We serve a merciful God who looks beyond our environment straight to our heart. Although at times we are under influnces that seem to taint us they can't posess us due to the Holy Spirit within us. And in time God puts us back on track, even if he has to destroy 2 cities to do it.

tturt said:

The enemy comes to kill, steal, and destroy.

What Scriptures define these? I realize that the enemy wants to kill us but doesn't Yahweh have the final say in that? Steal - The word? Destroy - our faith? the church through division? We're to wear our spiritual armor. I just keep wondering if there are some dots on the puzzle that I'm missing. You guys have a better handle on this Scripture than I do. Kill who? Kill what? steal what? steal who? destroy what? destroy who? Other?

Also, Scripture says don't be ignorant of his devices II Cor 2.

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Matthew ch 10 verse 28 Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Hope this helps

importunity said:

A hireling is the thief here, this passage is not talking about the devil.

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There are really four players in this scene: Jesus (the good shepherd), the thief (the wolf), the hireling (not the shepherd), and 'all who came before.'

Chapter 10 of John is mostly about the Good Shepherd and His responsibility to the sheep (us). The part in blue above is a juxtaposition of what the Good Shepherd's brings versus what the thief brings. In this we see the opposition of Jesus against the devil. Jesus brings life. The devil brings stealing, killing and destroying.

The hireling is a focus on a group like "all who came before." The hireling is one who looks like a shepherd, but has no real care for the sheep. When the going gets tough, the hireling runs. He will watch the sheep for a time -- until the wolf shows up. Kinda like a certain hireling who ran a revival down in Florida in recent years who dumped his wife and ran off with his secratary in the middle of the revival! "Sheep...care for yourself; I've got my reward."

Hirelings often do a lot of good, and they can appear very sincere. But they work for wages and their conviction is lacking when the wolf comes around. One can actually learn about and be lead to Life from a hireling during calm times; but the hireling provides false protection and the sheep are vulnerable when the times turn less than calm.

On the other hand, the thief (the wolf) is ONLY there to steal, to kill and to destroy. There is no life from him. The sheep is in total danger around the thief.