When healing doesn't come

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"An interesting thread might be " do the 'healers' get healed? "

Some of 'em DO, and some of 'em Don't.

"Healers" are no more likely to be "healed" than anybody else, and the simple FACT is that MOST FOLKS, "Healers" or otherwise, who are prayed for to be healed in churches that believe in such things - aren't.

And a few are.

Sometimes I wondered why Kenneth Hagin passed away with a heart condition (failure) even when he and his family had enormous faith for healing. Papa Hagin was the person who inspired me on the topic faith many years ago. On the other hand, Smith Wigglesworth passed away peacefully. I hope I didn't say anything wrong about them.
 
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Bob Carabbio

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"he and his family had enormous faith for healing. "

But while Dad Hagin KNEW how to move in the Spirit, that DOESN'T mean that HE (or they) necessarily had ANY faith whatsoever for any SPECIFIC healing (including his own) - unless it was communicated to Him by God.
 
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Intheboat

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What are peoples' thoughts on something I have gleaned from my walk concerning a lot of peoples' belief that God cannot be glorified in sickness? Not the old chestnut of if you are sick it is " your fault" or you must have a "lack of Faith" but the warning I sometimes hear of people being discouraged from thinking God will use sickness for his Glory and so they are not to refuse prayer for healing or use the terms " if it be your will". So, to reiterate : what does it mean " God cannot be glorified in sickness"?
 
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Bob Carabbio

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"So, to reiterate : what does it mean " God cannot be glorified in sickness"?

It actually means NOTHING except to certain WoF groups who are FORCED by their paradigm to REJECT forcibly any possibility that God might be involved in a person being sick, or would use sickness or handicap in any positive redemptive way. Paul used HIS sickness in Galatia, which apparently prevented him for travelling, to start a church. Pretty good way to spend recoup time.

God, I think, planted Joni Eareckson Tada right in the middle of His Charismatic renewal just to prove that HE can be glorified as easily by his power in the life of a hopeless cripple, as He Is by an overachieving athlete. Maybe moreso.

In my generation it was Helen Keller that was His glory in her infirmity.
 
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What are peoples' thoughts on something I have gleaned from my walk concerning a lot of peoples' belief that God cannot be glorified in sickness? Not the old chestnut of if you are sick it is " your fault" or you must have a "lack of Faith" but the warning I sometimes hear of people being discouraged from thinking God will use sickness for his Glory and so they are not to refuse prayer for healing or use the terms " if it be your will". So, to reiterate : what does it mean " God cannot be glorified in sickness"?

Jesus had a good go at those who attributed God's work to the devil. He said that they were close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

The trouble is these days is that people who say that sickness is God's will attribute the devil's work to God. This is almost just as bad.

Neither way, God is not glorified by a person being sick. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, so when a sickness is healed, the devil's work in that person is destroyed and so God is glorified.
 
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"So, to reiterate : what does it mean " God cannot be glorified in sickness"?

It actually means NOTHING except to certain WoF groups who are FORCED by their paradigm to REJECT forcibly any possibility that God might be involved in a person being sick, or would use sickness or handicap in any positive redemptive way. Paul used HIS sickness in Galatia, which apparently prevented him for travelling, to start a church. Pretty good way to spend recoup time.

God, I think, planted Joni Eareckson Tada right in the middle of His Charismatic renewal just to prove that HE can be glorified as easily by his power in the life of a hopeless cripple, as He Is by an overachieving athlete. Maybe moreso.

In my generation it was Helen Keller that was His glory in her infirmity.

Smith Wigglesworth, who had many genuine, documented healings, and at least 9 people raised from the dead, had a daughter who was profoundly deaf and never healed. Some ignorant people accused Wigglesworth of being a fake because of that.

They missed the point. Jesus is our only model for healing. We are required to be obedient to His Word in ministering to the sick and declaring what the Word says about their sickness.

Do we make the newspaper boy accountable for everything that is written in the newspaper? What is the newspaper boy? The one who delivers it.

It is the same with the person who ministers healing. All he does is to declare what the Word of God says. If he is suffering from an illness himself, it does not negate the Word of God about healing. A wounded soldier can still fire his weapon at the enemy. Just because a solider gets wounded, do we blame the general for ordering him into combat? Of course not.

So to try and destroy the credibility of a healing ministry because he or she gets sick, is absolute nonsense displayed by people who are ignorant of the Word of God, and who have a rubbish theology that does not work.

Also, it is mostly out of jealousy, because their ministry is barren and does not work, while the ones they are pulling down are doing stuff that works, and they hate seeing it, so they do their best to discredit it.

Talking about Helen Keller: God would have received much greater glory if she had have been healed. Probably the people around her were too unbelieving and were saying a whole lot of nonsense that it was God's will that she was the way she was.
 
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Jedi.Kep

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What do you make of it when a person has had a sickness for many years and has been struggling with pain - and is charismatic and asks continually for God's healing and it doesn't come?

That tells me that something is hindering the healing process. I know of at least 13 Scriptures that speak of what will hinder prayer from being answered.

I'm sort of in this situation as a family member of mine has been suffering for many years - and as a Charismatic Christian I have asked for God's miraculous healing but the answer seems to always be "no."

Something is clearly out of whack. The answer isn't "No." The question is "Why?"

In fact the condition has only gotten worse with time. I must say it has gotten frustrating - though I have never stopped asking the Lord for his healing...

You can't base God's will on what you see or don't see. You can only discover God's will from His Word. Did Jesus ever, even one time, refuse to heal anyone? Of course not. Now, were there times in the Bible that judgment had fallen and healing wouldn't come? You betcha. Several old and new testament examples. Is that the case here? No clue.

Time to sit with your Bible. Turn off the chat rooms and the forums and allow God Himself to reveal to you what His Word says. Be brutally honest with the LORD (He knows what you are thinking anyway). Then over the next week, or month or however long it takes you to read through the Bible cover to cover, take time to mine the depths of His Words. Allow the Holy Spirit to reveal to you the answers that you seek. The answers are all there. When you find a possibile answer, write it down and keep searching. Don't stop until you've gone cover to cover. God will reveal His Word and His will to you.
 
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Humble Pie

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I was reading St Paul's passage about how he asked God for the removal of an affliction "thrice" and then accepted that God wasn't going to heal him. Well actually, he said God refused to heal him but it makes me think, are we supposed to keep praying after 3 times? Maybe 3 times is enough. I also read a passage where Jesus prayed the same prayer 3 times. Just something for me to chew on...I currently pray hundreds of times for the same thing.
 
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dollarsbill

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Do you actually read the Bible sometimes?
I will assume that by avoiding the question 'do you ever get sick?' that you do indeed get sick. So please explain your statement.

You wrote:

"Healing is in the Atonement. It is always God's will to heal, not put diseases and sicknesses on people."

and:

"The reason why people in our churches are sick and not healed is because of the unbelief of Christians and their church leaders. It is our fault, not God's fault, that people are not healed, because in most cases, we have neither the Scriptural knowledge or the faith to effectively minister healing to those who are sick."

Why do you get sick? Is it "because of unbelief" or lack of "Scriptural knowledge" as you have accused others of?
 
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dollarsbill

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Jesus had a good go at those who attributed God's work to the devil. He said that they were close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

The trouble is these days is that people who say that sickness is God's will attribute the devil's work to God. This is almost just as bad.

Neither way, God is not glorified by a person being sick. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, so when a sickness is healed, the devil's work in that person is destroyed and so God is glorified.
Whom do you suppose struck these down?

Acts 5:9-10 (NASB)
9 Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well." 10 And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

Have you read Revelation?
 
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Bob Carabbio

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"Smith Wigglesworth, who had many genuine, documented healings, and at least 9 people raised from the dead, had a daughter who was profoundly deaf and never healed. Some ignorant people accused Wigglesworth of being a fake because of that."

And actually for anybody who's been around "Full Gospel" folks for a while would see this as relatively "normal". In the AoG there was a healing evangelist in the '40s who had an open cancer on her back that eventually killed her, but (so the story goes) had a very effective healing ministry. I think the Lord gets a "Kick" out of contradictions - the FOOLISH THINGS to confound the wise. Humans "get off" on admiring their own "Wisdom" (theologically and otherwise), and the Lord, for our sakes "demonstrates our foolishness to us".

"It is the same with the person who ministers healing. All he does is to declare what the Word of God says. If he is suffering from an illness himself, it does not negate the Word of God about healing."

Exactly - the "POWER" is in the WORD - not the minister. That's an important distinction - often ignored/missed.

I've had 13 heart attacks, two open hearts, and I'm carrying 16 stents. And I'm still holding down a full-time job, and functioning like a normal 69 year old Geezer. The folks in my church see that as a testimony to God's power - which it is.

And I Have NO FAITH WHATSOEVER that God will heal ME. And that's unimportant, God HEALS whether I happen to "have faith for it" or not.

Oh - and MOST folks in our churches that ARE healed are "Surprised by it".

"Talking about Helen Keller: God would have received much greater glory if she had have been healed. Probably the people around her were too unbelieving and were saying a whole lot of nonsense that it was God's will that she was the way she was."

This would be nothing more than an assumption driven by what we WANT to be true in order to justify our "precious paradigms".

As it IS, Helen (in my day) touched MILLIONS.

IF Helen had been healed, she'd have been QUICKLY dismissed, and forgotten by the uncaring world, and the "Visible Church", but as it is, her victorious life in the face of horrendous disability was inspiring. Same goes for Joni, or Mother Theresa.
 
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Exactly - the "POWER" is in the WORD - not the minister. That's an important distinction - often ignored/missed.[/size]
For those who operate within the Manifestation of healings or within the Office of healings I would be more inclined to say that there POWER comes from the Holy Spirit who resides within them. As for the written Word this does not contain any inherent power other than it being the medium in which the Father has conveyed his general will and purposes to mankind.

For the rest of us who do not operate in this manner, when we pray to the Father for someone (or our own) healing then our faith must be first grounded in our knowledge of the written Word but but the power is still granted from the Spirit/Father; even here we cannot be assured of someones healing if their infirmity is the result of unrepentant sin as with 1 Co 11.
 
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For those who operate within the Manifestation of healings or within the Office of healings I would be more inclined to say that there POWER comes from the Holy Spirit who resides within them. As for the written Word this does not contain any inherent power other than it being the medium in which the Father has conveyed his general will and purposes to mankind.

For the rest of us who do not operate in this manner, when we pray to the Father for someone (or our own) healing then our faith must be first grounded in our knowledge of the written Word but but the power is still granted from the Spirit/Father; even here we cannot be assured of someones healing if their infirmity is the result of unrepentant sin as with 1 Co 11.

If you examine Scripture closely, in the New Covenant there is NOONE who has been given a special office of healing. The only anointed healer is Jesus Himself, and EVERY BELIEVER, including you, have been given the authority to use His name to lay hands on the sick and expect them to recover.

Any prominent healing ministry has been just an ordinary believer discovering the Scriptural way of ministering healing. The problem is that people have "hero worshiped" them and the doctrine has evolved that these men have received special callings and gifts that the ordinary believer would not have. Of course this is a demonic lie to limit the faith of ordinary believers and to make them believe that only special men and women can operate in the healing ministry. That idea is nothing but lying RUBBISH.

It is true that there are gifts of healing. These are specialised gifts that come to some believers to heal certain illnesses, like someone has a special gift of healing cancer, another arthritis, another broken limbs. But these are not great "healing evangelists" as we would picture them. They are ordinary believers who have discovered that Jesus has given them authority to heal the sick, and that they have been more successful in healing a particular ailment.

So let's get away from the deception that only special people can minister in the healing ministry. The Scripture says that these signs follow EVERY BELIEVER: they will cast out demons...they will lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.

Also, to say that an unrepentant person cannot be healed is another demonic lie to limit believers' faith. Look at the people Jesus healed. Did He stop and ask if they were repentant? NO. The people He healed were unconverted Jews. It was AFTER He healed people that He told them to go and sin no more.

A person can have unconfessed sin in their life and still be healed. What happens is that after the miracle has happened, the person gets right with God pretty quick!

Furthermore, Jesus did not wait until the sick person had faith to be healed. Did Lazarus have faith? No. If he did, he would have believed for healing and therefore would not have died in the first place. Even John Wesley's horse was healed when prayed for. Did the horse have faith for healing? The reality is that it is not the sick person who needs faith, it is the person ministering the healing who has to have the faith. It is based on the faith of the person praying for the sick person. If a sick person does not get healed, then the responsibility lies on the person praying. He has to go back to God to find out why the healing did not happen. He cannot blame the sick person for not getting healed.

You see, we have a backwards church which preaches repentance first then healing afterward. Jesus did it the other way around. He healed and delivered people first, then dealt with their sin. Maybe if we did it Jesus' way, we might see more of His results!
 
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Seems to me that when healing does not come, it is the unbelief of the one praying. When the disciples could not heal the epileptic, they asked Jesus why. He told them straight.

Yep. Very true. Actually, the belief that it is a lack of faith in the sick person is a demonic lie to upset the healing ministry and make it ineffective; as well as causing unnecessary torment, doubt, and distress in the sick person.
 
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Yep. Very true. Actually, the belief that it is a lack of faith in the sick person is a demonic lie to upset the healing ministry and make it ineffective; as well as causing unnecessary torment, doubt, and distress in the sick person.
Awesome, and thank you for the info! I think I'm in the right place now.
 
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The main problem with the "sick person must have faith" idea (promulgated by most Pentecostal/Charismatic churches) is that it is requiring the sick person to have faith in their faith. This is why the ministry does not work in most cases. It is not the fault of the sick person that he or she does not get healed. It is the fault of those who teach Divine Healing and who teach the doctrine that the sick person must have faith to be healed. The problem with that teaching is that Jesus never required it.

It is the person who is ministering the healing prayer who needs to have the required faith. So, if a sick person does not get healed, it is the fault of the person praying, not the person being prayed for.

Also, the popular may of ministering to the sick is to pray once and then walk away. Many people do not get healed because of this, because the people ministering give up after one prayer.

More people get healed when they are prayed for multiple times. Every time hands are laid on a person, more of the life of Christ goes into them until they are healed.

Giving up after one prayer could be more of unbelief than faith. Faith keeps asking, praying, ministering until it wins, no matter how long it takes.
 
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Bob Carabbio

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"Faith keeps asking, praying, ministering until it wins, no matter how long it takes."

Not so!!

Faith KNOWS that the Answer is THERE, and no longer has to "ASK".

WHY would you ASK when you already HAVE "the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, and the EVIDENCE of things not seen". It WOULD make perfect sense to continue to THANK GOD for His provision. But there's NO sense to "keep asking" for what you already have.

It's HOPE that "keeps asking, praying, ministering until it wins, no matter how long it takes."

Praying in HOPE isn't a BAD thing, and MOST PRAYERS ARE "Prayers of Hope" - because we DON'T KNOW what God's specific will is in the situation. Our Faith is in the love and character of God. And when you DON'T KNOW what the answer is, then pray with importunity.

Back in the day, we called it "Praying through" - and when faith came, then you KNEW the provision was on the way.
 
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"Faith keeps asking, praying, ministering until it wins, no matter how long it takes."

Not so!!

Faith KNOWS that the Answer is THERE, and no longer has to "ASK".

WHY would you ASK when you already HAVE "the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, and the EVIDENCE of things not seen". It WOULD make perfect sense to continue to THANK GOD for His provision. But there's NO sense to "keep asking" for what you already have.

It's HOPE that "keeps asking, praying, ministering until it wins, no matter how long it takes."

Praying in HOPE isn't a BAD thing, and MOST PRAYERS ARE "Prayers of Hope" - because we DON'T KNOW what God's specific will is in the situation. Our Faith is in the love and character of God. And when you DON'T KNOW what the answer is, then pray with importunity.

Back in the day, we called it "Praying through" - and when faith came, then you KNEW the provision was on the way.

I did not say "ask". Nowhere in the New Testament is there any indication that we should ever ask for healing; not the first time or any other time. Why would anyone ask for something that God has already given? Peter said that by His stripes we WERE healed. Past tense!

It is not that a person denies the symptoms or the physical indications of sickness. That is denying the reality of the presence of the sickness.

What Peter is meaning is that through the Atonement, God has declared healing and salvation, effective when Jesus died on the Cross. But it is made effective in a person when that person accepts Christ, and accepts the declaration that he or she is healed through the stripes that Jesus received when He was whipped as part of the sentence of death that He received. So, a person is saved by the shed blood of Christ, and is healed through His whipped and broken body.

A person ministering healing does not pray. He does not have to say anything. The Scripture says "they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover." There is nothing about having to pray or say anything. This means that you and I can minister to a sick person by just laying hands on the person and nothing more. The promise is that when we do that, the sick person will recover. It is simple as that.

Now, as long as the contact is made by the laying on of hands, the life of Christ is flowing into the person. The longer the contact is kept, the more of the life of Christ flows into the person.

This is how the Healing Rooms ministry functions. They encourage the sick person to return for subsequent sessions, and they keep laying hands on the sick person until the healing comes, no matter how long it takes. Sometimes it has taken quite a number of sessions before healing comes. If the person ministering laid hands once and walked away, the sick person may have remained sick. The fault would have been the ministering person's lack of perseverance.

We all know that Jesus is our Model for ministry. He said "As I am in the world, so are you." This means that as we minister to others, we are representing Jesus as if He were here in person. This enables us to do the same works that He did, with the Holy Spirit, living in us, providing the supernatural ability.

You will notice, if you carefully read the accounts of the way Jesus healed people, that not once did He ask the Father to heal anyone. He told sick people they were healed, and they were healed. He told some to do what they couldn't do before, like "take up your bed and walk". He told the centurion to go back home because his servant was now healed, and when he got home he found out that the servant's healing started at exactly the same time that Jesus declared it.

This is the way that Jesus means for us to minister healing. This means that we can lay hands on a sick person and tell them that they are healed. This is how Jesus did it, and He was totally dependent on the same Holy Spirit as we are. He was no different in His personal ability than we are. He did not heal people through His own divine attributes as the Son of God. He laid all that aside and became the same type of human being we are, with all the same limitations that we have. He voluntarily became totally dependent on the Holy Spirit for all the healings and miracles that He performed. If he had been using His divine attributes to heal people, we could never have been able to follow His model and we would not have been able to do the same works as He did. But because He had the same humanity as we have (without sin of course!), we can follow His model and know that the same Holy Spirit that provided the supernatural ability to heal for Him, will do the same for us.

So, if you believe that all you have to do is to pray once for a sick person and then walk away, it is no wonder that it does not work for you most times.
 
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Bob Carabbio

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"So, if you believe that all you have to do is to pray once for a sick person and then walk away, it is no wonder that it does not work for you most times."

Of course, as you well know, I never said anything like that.
 
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