Praying if it be thy will indicates that you don't know what God's will is.

franky67 · Mar 17, 2012

Faulty said:
Even the verses you quoted in the OP has Jesus saying "If you are willing, let the cup pass from me".

It's there, like it or not.

You still have the leper, who knowing Jesus has been healing people, asking Him, "if it be your will, you can heal me", then Jesus, who only responds to a prayer of faith, heals the leper.

Scripture proves it to be a prayer of faith.

Now if the leper knew that God heals, and he asked "if it be your will", and the prayer was honored and answered as a prayer of faith, who are any of you to think you know better than Jesus and come around saying that if I or someone else who knows that God heals, and prays in the same manner, somehow lacks faith? Do you know something Jesus wasn't aware of?

The 'if it be thy will" prayer is not a confession of not knowing the will of God. It's a confession of knowing God is soverign and does as He pleases. We ask, and if He finds it in His good pleasure to answer in that moment, He does, and if not we wait and keep asking.

No, "if it be thy will" is saying to God, "I don't know your will on this" God answers our prayers according to His promises, not "His good pleasure"

His promises are His will, but I don't have scripture to tell me if I am to move here or there, or take this job, or that job, sooo....... I ask him those things according to His will.

Yes God is sovereign but He is self bound to fulfill His covenant promises, which He has made in His covenant to last forever.

God is not so sovereign that He will break any promises He has made.

If that were true we wouldn't have much to believe in.

hislegacy · Mar 17, 2012

franky67 said:
No, "if it be thy will" is saying to God, "I don't know your will on this" God answers our prayers according to His promises, not "His good pleasure"

His promises are His will, but I don't have scripture to tell me if I am to move here or there, or take this job, or that job, sooo....... I ask him those things according to His will.

Yes God is sovereign but He is self bound to fulfill His covenant promises, which He has made in His covenant to last forever.

God is not so sovereign that He will break any promises He has made.

If that were true we wouldn't have much to believe in.

Spot on!

hislegacy · Mar 17, 2012

JimB said:
Oh, I see, you have to hold your mouth right to get an answer to prayer. I haven't considered that. I guess God is not concerned with the heart as much as he is with our choice of words. Pity the poor uneducated sap; he'll never get anything from God until he gets better training.

[/FONT]

I have no reasonable reply to this statement. It doesn't come from anything I have said and is non sensical to me. I can say that anyone who hears such nonsense, should run, not walk away from such teachings.

JimB said:
Apparently that little word "if" is a gigantic problem for you. But Jesus was not afraid of it. In Gethsemane he prayed, "And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, 'My Father, IF it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will." ... Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, 'My Father, IF this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done.'" (Matt. 26.39, 42). How that differs from "if it be thy will," I don't know. I'll let you strain at that gnat.

Personally I have never considered the Word of God a gnat.

Optimax · Mar 17, 2012

Simply Put said:
[/font]

I have no reasonable reply to this statement. It doesn't come from anything I have said and is non sensical to me. I can say that anyone who hears such nonsense, should run, not walk away from such teachings.

Personally I have never considered the Word of God a gnat.

Jim likes that gnat verse. He uses it a lot when He doesn't know what to say.

hislegacy · Mar 17, 2012

God's will is readily available to anyone in covenant with Him. We are called into a living relationship with Him and have communion with Him through Jesus, the written word and the leading of the Holy Spirit.

The problem comes when we pray for something and it doesn't come out the way we think it should. Instead of taking the issue to the Word or to God, we shrug and say, well it must not have been God's will.

We are not supposed to be guessing at the things of God, we are supposed to be living and demonstrating the things of God in reaching the lost.

Laureate · Mar 17, 2012

...your own right hand can save you.

Job 40:14
Then will I also confess unto you that, your own right hand can save you.

The Biblical word for faith, 'AMN' also translates as, 'right hand' in the Bible.

Matthew 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off,and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Meaning, if something we believe to be true with conviction, causes us to offend the law of love, then we need to drop those aspects of our faith, or suffer the consequences.

AMN, is also translated as 'truth', 'believe',and 'trust', and contextually pertains to conviction, being loyal, reliable, valid(ate), sincere, etc.

Faith without conviction is dead.

When a hypnotist sucessfully hypnotizes someone, the subject is convinced, and acts accordingly, without doubt or hesitation; because there is conviction, their faith is strong. Conviction eliminates all existing doubt, and hesitation, therefore it is what puts the sincere Works in one's Faith, without one having to wrestle or premeditate whether or not they will comply or act according to their proposed faith.

How can one say he relies on something he does not understand.

Idaish 6:10
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

How can you believe Yeshua was the son of Eloheem, if you don't even know/realize what believe/AMN is, or you do not Know or recognize who the son is that you may believe, or if you do not know who YHWH is? Whatsoever you lack of these things is also lacking in your conviction which is the strength of one's faith.

To say, we don't know his will may be a little strong, perhaps it would be more accurate to say, we do not fully understand his will, which we are(clearly) aware/know of.

Therefore, the doctrine that says, all you have to do is profess with your lips, and believe in your heart..., is only good if you really understand what you believe; to profess things we do not understand is fruitless; that is why we continue in his word, that we may come to the Truth/AMN/Faith, that sets us free from sin, and its requirement for death.

Can I get an Amen?

hislegacy · Mar 17, 2012

Laureate said:
..

Can I get an Amen?

Probably not.

JimB · Mar 17, 2012

Simply Put said:
God's will is readily available to anyone in covenant with Him. We are called into a living relationship with Him and have communion with Him through Jesus, the written word and the leading of the Holy Spirit.

The problem comes when we pray for something and it doesn't come out the way we think it should. Instead of taking the issue to the Word or to God, we shrug and say, well it must not have been God's will.

We are not supposed to be guessing at the things of God, we are supposed to be living and demonstrating the things of God in reaching the lost.

I really don't worry too much about it. I simply pray, have the assurance that my Father heard me and will answer the prayer I have prayed in the best way possible. I know this, so I just do not concern myself with it. My job is to pray, tell him what I want, and leave the rest up to him. He sees everything clearly but I see through a glass darkly.

~Jim

JimB · Mar 17, 2012

Optimax said:
Jim likes that gnat verse. He uses it a lot when He doesn't know what to say.

Yep. It pretty much defines what goes on in this forum.

~Jim

probinson · Mar 17, 2012

Faulty said:
It's not a prayer of uncertainty. It's a prayer of sovereignty. Just like the leper.

A "prayer of sovereignty"? What does that even mean?

Let's try this from another angle;

Let's say I tell my children I'm going to take them to Disney World for vacation this year. My children then run around saying "If my dad wants to, he's going to take us to Disney World." This is not a statement of confidence in what I already told them. To the contrary, it would demonstrate that my children did not take me at my word when I plainly told them what I was going to do for them.

Because we on my side of this debate believe that healing is God's will and is already settled, it is therefore a statement of doubt to us to say "If you want to heal us", because we believe God has already made clear that He does want to heal us from the very clear picture Jesus showed us in how He dealt with sickness and disease.

The problem is not in praying "if it be Thy will", which I believe is appropriate in situations where there is no clear direction found in scripture. The difference is that some people believe that healing is God's will, and some people aren't so sure. That's why to the person who is unsure of God's will, they see it as a prayer of submission to whatever God wants, whereas the person who believes healing is God's will sees it as a prayer of doubt and uncertainty.

Laureate · Mar 18, 2012

Simply Put said:
Probably not.

Truly did not expect one, lol, I just couldn't resist myself there at the end of the thread, shame on me!

JimB · Mar 18, 2012

Today I taught on "Touching Lepers." As I read Matt. 8 again I read where the poor leper who came to Jesus prayed if it be your will. He said, "Lord, if you will, you can make me clean" (v.2). and Jesus honored his prayer and healed him.

~Jim

Optimax · Mar 18, 2012

JimB said:
Today I taught on "Touching Lepers." As I read Matt. 8 again I read where the poor leper who came to Jesus prayed if it be your will. He said, "Lord, if you will, you can make me clean" (v.2). and Jesus honored his prayer and healed him.

~Jim

That is right! Jesus showed his will was that the guy be healed. He said "I will" and healed him.

Matt 8:3
And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will ; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. KJV

The Centurion ask Jesus if he would heal his servant.

Jesus said I will.

Matt 8:7
And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. KJV

God is no respecter of persons.

Acts 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: KJV

God is no respecter of persons, therefore it is His will that all be healed.

TasManOfGod · Mar 19, 2012

It is also a mistake to consider those talking to Jesus as recorded in the gospels equates to talking to God
The question to Jesus "If you will-----" should receive the same answer from us as what Jesus gave.

probinson · Mar 19, 2012

JimB said:
Today I taught on "Touching Lepers." As I read Matt. 8 again I read where the poor leper who came to Jesus prayed if it be your will. He said, "Lord, if you will, you can make me clean" (v.2). and Jesus honored his prayer and healed him.

I didn't realize the poor leper was the example we were supposed to emulate.

There was also a sick woman with an issue of blood that doctors could not cure who fought through a crowd because she said within herself that she would be healed if she could touch the hem of Jesus' garment. The instant she touched the hem, she was healed. Jesus didn't even know who had touched Him, but He knew someone had touched Him in faith.

Jesus' "will" had nothing at all to do with that woman's healing. In fact, Jesus straight up said to her, "Your faith has made you whole". For lack of a better terminology, that woman "took" her healing from Jesus without Him even knowing it, and He commended her for it.

If you want to emulate the leper, I suppose that's your prerogative, but IMO I think the woman with the issue of blood is a much better example to emulate.

hislegacy · Mar 19, 2012

JimB said:
Today I taught on "Touching Lepers." As I read Matt. 8 again I read where the poor leper who came to Jesus prayed if it be your will. He said, "Lord, if you will, you can make me clean" (v.2). and Jesus honored his prayer and healed him.

~Jim

. Super cool.

Will you be following up with "touching faith"?

Unlike the "will" question of the leper, there are a few more references than one

The blind men.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes, saying, According to your faith let it be to you.
Matthew 9:28-30 (in Context) Matthew 9 (Whole Chapter)

The Syrophen woman

Matthew 15:28
Then Jesus answered and said to her, O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire. And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Matthew 15:27-29 (in Context) Matthew 15 (Whole Chapter)

The blind men

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes, saying, According to your faith let it be to you.
Matthew 9:28-30 (in Context) Matthew 9 (Whole Chapter)

Mark 5:34
And He said to her, Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace, and be healed of your affliction.
Mark 5:33-35 (in Context) Mark 5 (Whole Chapter)

:priest:

JimB · Mar 19, 2012

I "touched" on that

in the lesson in an effort to encourage our people, when "touching lepers," to touch them appropriately--i.e., affectionaly, an embrace--not just some formal, sterile touch on the forhead with a dab of Wesson vegetable oil. Jesus touched (I believe he embraced) a man who probably had not felt a human touch in years. Even if the man had not been healed phsycially, he may have been healed emotionally. What this taught me was that as important as physical healing may be, there's more to healing than just a person feeling physically better. ~Jim

Laura Phillips · Mar 19, 2012

I think they just say it out of politeness.

TasManOfGod · Mar 19, 2012

Laura Phillips said:
I think they just say it out of politeness.

That might well be so but it also might be politely wrong to do so

Laura Phillips · Mar 19, 2012

>>That might well be so but it also might be politely wrong to do so

yah I pray its not though. Notice I didn't say "if it be thy will....."

Praying if it be thy will indicates that you don't know what God's will is.

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