Was the Lord's supper Passover?

Yahudim · Mar 15, 2012

Oops, I should has said that this was from her thread Ta'anit B'Khorim

Lulav · Mar 15, 2012

I just realized my previous post disappeared?? I posted right after Henaynei's double post? oh well,

The gist of what I wrote was to look at the commandment regarding Passover.

But the man that is clean, and is not in a journey, and forbeareth to keep the passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people: because he brought not the offering of the LORD in his appointed season, that man shall bear his sin.

Numbers 9

The apostles were, by what we are told in the Gospels, clean and in Jerusalem, so by law they were required to keep the Passover.

We have no record of any of them but who is assumed to be John attending the Crucifixion.

We are told that after the Shabbat they were still in Jerusalem gathered together behind closed doors.

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

So the obvious question would be, if what they experienced on the night before the crucifixion was not the Passover Seder, when did they keep it?

Lulav · Mar 15, 2012

pat34lee said:
There are a couple of things that suggest that it could not have been a Passover seder that they ate.

1. Wrong day. This was the night before Passover was eaten. Which brings another problem.

2. No lamb. There was only one place to get a Passover lamb killed. Do you think the priests would have killed one for him a day ahead of time?

So how were the disciples preparing the Passover that day? They had to check the room for leaven.
The phrase "prepare the Passover" found in Matthew 26:19, Mark 14:16, and Luke 22:13 comes from the Greek phrase hetoimasan to pascha. According to Strong's Concordance, the Greek verb root hetoimazo means: "1) to make ready, prepare 1a) to make the necessary preparations, get everything ready . . . drawn from the oriental custom of sending on before kings on their journeys persons to level the roads and make them passable." Clearly, the reason the disciples questioned Yeshua about where they were going to eat the Passover meal was because Jewish custom required that the location be prepared by removing the leaven from it on the night of Nisan 14.
Last Supper - Was it the Passover Meal? - Here a little, there a little - Holy Days

But then what do we do with what Matthew says?

Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him,

"Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

18 And he said , Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith , My time is at hand;

I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

There seems to be this same thought in Luke, just more expanded (pertinent parts highlighted).

7 Then came the Day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover (Lamb or kid) must be killed.

8 And He sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and prepare the Passover for us, that we may eat." 9 So they said to Him, "Where do You want us to prepare?" 10 And He said to them, "Behold, when you have entered the city, a man will meet you carrying a pitcher of water; follow him into the house which he enters. 11 Then you shall say to the master of the house, 'The Teacher says to you, "Where is the guest room where I may eat the Passover with My disciples?" '

12 Then he will show you a large, furnished upper room; there make ready." 13 So they went and found it just as He had said to them, and they prepared the Passover.

14 When the hour had come, He sat down, and the twelve apostles with Him. 15 Then He said to them, "With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."

Henaynei · Mar 15, 2012

Lulav said:
I just realized my previous post disappeared?? I posted right after Henaynei's double post? oh well,

The gist of what I wrote was to look at the commandment regarding Passover.

Numbers 9

The apostles were, by what we are told in the Gospels, clean and in Jerusalem, so by law they were required to keep the Passover.

We have no record of any of them but who is assumed to be John attending the Crucifixion.

We are told that after the Shabbat they were still in Jerusalem gathered together behind closed doors.

So the obvious question would be, if what they experienced on the night before the crucifixion was not the Passover Seder, when did they keep it?

On Passover. After sunset Nissan 14th, Nissan 15th

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Yahudim · Mar 15, 2012

I don't know about you friends, but for me and my family, preparation for the Passover starts several days prior to the actual Passover. Considering that the ritual of Spring cleaning is often attributed to the preparation of Passover, I'm pretty confident that there was an extended time of preparation, even then.

Also, considering what Visionary offered on the topic, I can easily see how the translators and scribes of the gospel accounts might have taken liberties to make the account fit their understanding of the practice. It wouldn't be the first time. But I am just thinking out loud...

pat34lee · Mar 16, 2012

Lulav said:
But then what do we do with what Matthew says?

There seems to be this same thought in Luke, just more expanded (pertinent parts highlighted).

He hadn't told the disciples all of what was coming yet, so he had them get the room as if it were any other Passover approaching.

ContraMundum · Mar 16, 2012

Henaynei said:
for us, my family, co-religionists and our students, the Pesakh and what is called the L-rd's Supper are the same event - celebrating more than one Deliverance or Redemption.

Yeah, I gathered that. I personally can not see it in that manner, for reasons that I really wouldn;t go into here. The scriptures tell us we "proclaim the Lord's death until He comes" in the Thanksgiving meal. The passover is to remember the deliverance from Pharoah etc. The events converge on Golgotha, but one remembers the early redepemption, the other the redemption of all mankind. One is tied to a time of the year, the other is not. One is tied to a certain nation, the other is tied to all who believe in the Cross. One has spiritual promise and power (and curse if abused 1 Cor 11:27-31) and the other is pretty much more ritual and religion these days. The two are related, but different. Why not have both if you are Jewish?

As we understand it:
No it was not The Pesakh Seder that Yeshua shared with His disciples that night
Yes they had likely had this teaching Seder gathering the other years they were following Messiah
Yes we believe He was teaching ABOUT The Pesakh Seder. Thus we do During our traditional Pesakh Seder as He taught, with the Matzah and Cup "after the meal" - aka The Cup of Redemption in the traditional Seder.
b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

I'm glad that you wrote "as we understand it" at the start, because there doesn't seem to be any direct evidence to make those beliefs a "binding dogma" when you look at it- there are a number of assumptions that form the basis of those points, don't you think? Those are theological deductions and they might preach good, but without a clear, unambiguous teaching of scripture on it, I wouldn't want to be so adamant about it being the pure truth of scripture as perhaps your group is.

Messianic Jewboy · Mar 16, 2012

ContraMundum said:
Yeah, I gathered that. I personally can not see it in that manner, for reasons that I really wouldn;t go into here. The scriptures tell us we "proclaim the Lord's death until He comes" in the Thanksgiving meal. The passover is to remember the deliverance from Pharoah etc. The events converge on Golgotha, but one remembers the early redepemption, the other the redemption of all mankind. One is tied to a time of the year, the other is not. One is tied to a certain nation, the other is tied to all who believe in the Cross. One has spiritual promise and power (and curse if abused 1 Cor 11:27-31) and the other is pretty much more ritual and religion these days. The two are related, but different. Why not have both if you are Jewish?

When you say having both are you saying have a Passover Seder then a totally separate Lord's Supper, communion? Some Messianic congregations do that, they'll have the Lord's Supper once a month.

Personally doing that seems oxymoronic because the what's called the Lord's Supper was part of the same meal as the Passover celebration. They were both together. But most importantly the two are related both say to remember. From a Jewish standpoint I would find it an impossibility that the supper they had and the suppers they had in the past were not related to Passover.

Some I'm not sure why you ask should Jewish people have both? Christians have communion once a month mostly. Christians don't celebrate remembering God's redemption from Egypt.

Know let's not be dogmatic and I don't want too. Should Jews celebrate both in the same meal? Assuming my points in previous posts hopefully helped to prove that they did and that what's called the Last Supper we read in scripture was an added element where the physical points to the spiritual. In other words when you remember God redeeming our ancestors from suffering from Egypt remember My suffering and deliverance from your sins.

yonah_mishael · Mar 16, 2012

Just for those who would like my opinion, and I certainly cannot discuss it here, it seems to me that the Synoptic gospels taken as a whole show that this was indeed the Passover meal that was being eaten. John's gospel, on the other hand, shows that it was before the Passover. If you read only the Synoptics, you will come away with the idea that Jesus ate that Passover meal before his death. If you read only John, you will come away with the idea that Jesus was crucified at the same time as the slaughtering of the Passover lambs. It's a basic contradiction between the accounts.

That's, of course, all I can say about it. Can't debate, but wanted to just lay it out that this is another alternative.

Messianic Jewboy · Mar 16, 2012

yonah_mishael said:
Just for those who would like my opinion, and I certainly cannot discuss it here, it seems to me that the Synoptic gospels taken as a whole show that this was indeed the Passover meal that was being eaten. John's gospel, on the other hand, shows that it was before the Passover. If you read only the Synoptics, you will come away with the idea that Jesus ate that Passover meal before his death. If you read only John, you will come away with the idea that Jesus was crucified at the same time as the slaughtering of the Passover lambs. It's a basic contradiction between the accounts.

That's, of course, all I can say about it. Can't debate, but wanted to just lay it out that this is another alternative.

This is interesting discussion, So the question is doesn't the feast of Unleavened Bread start AFTER the Passover? If so how can you eat the Passover on the 1st day of Unleavened bread when the Passover had already passed?

Matthew 26:17; On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

Luke 22:7-8; 7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.
8 Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover.”

In Mark 14:1 it says

Mark 14:1; Now the Passover and the Festival of Unleavened Bread were only two days away, and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were scheming to arrest Jesus secretly and kill him.

Passover AND Unleavened Bread was 2 days away then 2 days later Mark 14:12 says;

Mark 14:12; 12 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

So the question is doesn't the feast of Unleavened Bread start AFTER the Passover? If so how can you eat the Passover on the 1st day of Unleavened bread when the Passover had already passed?

yonah_mishael · Mar 16, 2012

mpossoff said:
When was the Passover to be eaten, meaning the actual sacrifice, in conjunction to Unleavened Bread?

The first night of Passover. The sacrifice was made on the 14th day of Nisan/Aviv. Then after nightfall, the festive meal was eaten. It's still that way today, but outside of Israel there are two seder nights. (Many have two seder nights in Israel, too.)

Messianic Jewboy · Mar 16, 2012

Delete

Messianic Jewboy · Mar 16, 2012

yonah_mishael said:
The first night of Passover. The sacrifice was made on the 14th day of Nisan/Aviv. Then after nightfall, the festive meal was eaten. It's still that way today, but outside of Israel there are two seder nights. (Many have two seder nights in Israel, too.)

So is the sacrifice eaten on the first day of Unleavened bread according to scripture on the 15th of Nisan?

Messianic Jewboy · Mar 16, 2012

yonah_mishael said:
The first night of Passover. The sacrifice was made on the 14th day of Nisan/Aviv. Then after nightfall, the festive meal was eaten. It's still that way today, but outside of Israel there are two seder nights. (Many have two seder nights in Israel, too.)

No the Passover which is the sacrifice wasn't the next day being the 15th of Nisan. The Passover the sacrifice is the 14th of Nisan. The sacrifice is to be eaten on the 14th of Nisan, right? That's why we have a Seder which represents that.

Lev 23:5; In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight,[a] is the Lord's Passover.

yonah_mishael · Mar 16, 2012

mpossoff said:
No the Passover which is the sacrifice wasn't the next day being the 15th of Nisan. The Passover the sacrifice is the 14th of Nisan. The sacrifice is to be eaten on the 14th of Nisan, right? That's why we have a Seder which represents that.

Lev 23:5; In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight,[a] is the Lord's Passover.

The date switches at nightfall. The sacrifice was made on the 14th. It was prepared that afternoon and eaten at twilight at the end of the 14th and beginning of the 15th. It's wholly eaten on the 15th (after nightfall).

Messianic Jewboy · Mar 16, 2012

yonah_mishael said:
The date switches at nightfall. The sacrifice was made on the 14th. It was prepared that afternoon and eaten at twilight at the end of the 14th and beginning of the 15th. It's wholly eaten on the 15th (after nightfall).

Right you're missing my point though. You can't eat and/or prepare the Passover on the 1st day of Unleavened Bread.

yonah_mishael · Mar 16, 2012

mpossoff said:
Right you're missing my point though. You can't eat and/or prepare the Passover on the 1st day of Unleavened Bread.

Yeah, I’m missing your point. The Synoptics have Jesus killed on Nisan 15, having already eaten the seder with his friends the night before. John has Jesus killed on Nisan 14, the day on which the sacrifice was being made. This is why only John makes the comment that the Jewish leaders could not enter the palace of the governor because they did not want to be made unclean and disqualified from eating the Passover (John 18:28). That statement didn’t come up in the Synoptics, since in those gospels the priests would already have eaten the meal the night before they brought Jesus for trial. Whatever your point, I don’t think it’s necessarily relevant. By the time of the NT, the Passover was seen as part of the feast of matsot, and it still is. Passover is the first day of Unleavened Breads, but it wasn’t called that in the Torah.

Gxg (G²) · Mar 16, 2012

ContraMundum said:
The scriptures tell us we "proclaim the Lord's death until He comes" in the Thanksgiving meal. The passover is to remember the deliverance from Pharoah etc. The events converge on Golgotha, but one remembers the early redepemption, the other the redemption of all mankind. One is tied to a time of the year, the other is not. One is tied to a certain nation, the other is tied to all who believe in the Cross. One has spiritual promise and power (and curse if abused 1 Cor 11:27-31) and the other is pretty much more ritual and religion these days. The two are related, but different. Why not have both if you are Jewish?

.

Many people, from what I understand, don't really care to do things like Communion/the Last SUpper due to the belief that anything/everything from the Torah itself is the only thing that should be celebrated. Moreover, in their minds, most of what they see with Communion is not to be tolerated since the think it is not truly "Jewish."

This is seen, for example, whenever others have raised issue saying "Communion itself done by Churches is fake since they use wafers rather than REAL bread like the OT culture!!!!". I disagree with them whenever they've done that (as it's mainly Gentiles saying such)---and many Jewish brothers/sisters have never had an issue trying to celebrate both in a godly manner. For those who are Hebrew Catholics and who saw wafers just as they saw unleaven bread broken, that is something I'll not dismiss quickly.

There was an excellent read you may be interested in, called "The Blessing of Bread: The Many Rich Traditions of Jewish Bread Baking Around the World " which described one type of bread in Israel that was a precursor to waffers (as it discussed here). The example of Manna comes immediately to mind since Exodus 16:30-32 says it was "white like coriander seed and tasted like wafers made with honey." As manna was given in the wilderness to provide for God's people ( Numbers 11, Deuteronomy 8, Nehemiah 9:19-21 Psalm 78:23-25 ) and the Lord described Himself as the Manna--the BRead--that came from Heaven to feed the people ( John 6:57-59 / John 6, Revelation 2:16-18, etc )..and as the Last Supper incorporated the same theme of believers partaking of the Lord symbolically, it's why waffer's are utilized in remembrance when it comes to celebrating. It is indeed apart of a Jewish heritage..and something to take seriously as with other things connected to Yeshua (as I Corinthians 11:17 notes).

As it concerns seeing things differently than before, Yeshua had the same dynamic go down when he instituted the Last Supper and did it DIFFERENTLY than a traditional passover was done with the drinking of wine/the cup he used. Christ did not eat matzah at the Last Supper, which was not the Passover Meal. He was crucified on the eve of Passover, before the Passover Meal. The afikomen and cups of wine WERE added to the Passover feast. The fact that Jesus used the cups of wine shows that He had no heartburn with them, but incorporated the wine into His Communion Supper with His disciples--which we remember to this day, every time we partake of the bread and wine in Holy Communion. It was a new ritual 'the cup of the new covenant'. Mosaic Torah does NOT command drinking the fruit of the vine at a Pesach Seder commemorating the Egyptian Exodus -- BUT Messiah DOES command drinking the fruit of the vine during the L-RD'S Supper at His Table commemorating Yeshua's death according to Matthew 26:26-32 and 1st Corinthians 11:23-29

To be clear, Yeshua's usage of wine was not fully disconnected from all aspects of the Hebrew traditions, as the betrothal period is spent in the parents' home preparing and being prepared for life as a wife or husband. When remembering that and seeing what occurred in the Last Supper in places like John 13 and John 14.2-3, one can see aspects of betrothal language.

The bridegroom would go to his father's house and prepare a place for his bride to live and work to provide for her needs, and he was only allowed to go and get his Bride when his father said he was ready to take care of her. Yeshua cannot return for his Bride, for whom he is preparing a place, until his Father says, "Go and bring your Bride."

The 'cup after supper' that Yeshua passed was a part of the betrothal tradition, as the potential groom would bring a cup of wine and sip it. He would then hand it to the potential bride. If she sipped it, she was accepting his proposal of marriage and from that moment they were legally hitched. Combined with Jn.14.2-3, and the probability that the disciples understood all this tradition, every one of the disciples who drank of that cup knew what it was - including Judas.

As one of my brothers in Christ said best:

To start with, the Passover meal has always been a meal consumed in the home with family.

The institution of the 4 cups predates Jesus time.

Exodus 6:6
Say, therefore, to the sons of Israel, ‘I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from their bondage. I will also redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments. 7 Then I will take you for My people,

The symbolism of the cups is based on Exodus 6:6-7.

First cup - Bring you out from Egypt
Second cup - Delivery from bondage
Third cup - Redemption
Fourth cup- Take you for My people

In the scriptural depiction of Jesus last supper Passover seder, the timing shows that the cup which represents Jesus blood is the cup of redemption. The third cup is consumed right after the meal.

Luke 22:20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

1 Cor 11:25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

This is one of those times, I say be cautious about taking away from what was occurring and what it meant to the Jewish disciples, to separate the NT from the Tenakh and the Jewish people.

There are a few things which are priestly, but singing is not a concern.

But, I do agree that Jesus established a NT Passover. While the Passover of Egypt can not be truly celebrated as commanded without the Temple, neither can it be celebrated outside of Jerusalem by Gentiles. By altering the meaning, being about Jesus, and including the Gentiles where they were previously forbidden, the Passover becomes a new NT Holy Day.

I've heard that Yeshua's use of bread and wine at Pesach signified a change in the priesthood. Malki-Tzedek, a cohen of El'Elyon, had served bread and wine to Avram when he blessed him (Genesis 14:18-20). Now Yeshua served the same to his talmidim (Matthew 26:26-29), and he has been made cohen forever, a different kind of cohen, like Malki-Tzedek (Hebrews 7-8). Cool to consider, of course. But all of that is to say how certain aspects of Jewish tradition were never meant to occur the same in all cases.

For some good resources to review:

Gxg (G²) · Mar 16, 2012

ContraMundum said:
We Jews are traditionally big on eating together.
.

So very glad to be able to live life with other Jews who truly do LOVE eating together and know how the dinner table is truly the heart of so many events ( Song of Songs 2:3-5 , Isaiah 25:5-7 / Isaiah 25 , Matthew 22:1-3 /Revelation 19:8-10 ). And the amount of times Christ was EXCITED TO eat with his disciples was amazing ( John 21:4-6 /John 21, Luke 24:41-43 , etc ).

Sad to see how many within MJism only witness where the focus is upon liturgy and the celebrating of Jewish customs, yet the aspect of feasting is left out altogether....and that's sad because when it came to things like communion before the Lord, Paul brought up how it was to be done often in remebrance of him and food/feasting was to be done also:

I Corinthians 11:17-34
The Lord’s Supper

17 In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval. 20 When you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat, 21 for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22 Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!

23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32 When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.
33 So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for each other. 34 If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment

Gxg (G²) · Mar 16, 2012

ContraMundum said:
Many in the Eastern Orthodox tradition believe that the Lord's Supper was initiated the night before Pesach. Thus the Bread and Wine was a kiddush (although this happens as part of a seder as well). What some note is that if this the case then in fact Jesus was crucified while the Passover lambs were being slaughtered at the Temple. .

Amazing to consider. From what I've seen, the Lord's supper seemed to be something that was unique on certain levels even though the Supper itself was complimentary to what occurred later on with Passover--an event meant to point to the greater spiritual reality of what Christ came to do.

There's other interesting things of note, but I don't think people on this forum are interested in any depth on this topic, as most here refuse the Lord's Supper in their spiritual life anyway (as we have found out many, many times on this topic through the years)

I'd be interested to find out more on what you were saying and I'm certain there are others (lurkers as well) who'd LOVE to know, although it is sad to see that many do not celebrate the Lord's Supper. Are there any threads you know of where I could see this for myself in investigation?

Was the Lord's supper Passover?

Y'shua HaMoshiach Messianic

Y'shua is His Name

Y'shua is His Name

Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Echud! Al pi Adonai...

Y'shua HaMoshiach Messianic

Messianic

Messianic Jewish Christian

Senior Veteran

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

Senior Veteran

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

Senior Veteran

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Similar threads