When you were born again, Dan, your spirit was made perfect. Your soul is being regenerated over time toward perfection. But you are, in spirit, as Jesus was. It is a larger study to do it justice, but...
Hebrews 12:23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect
Our spirits have been made perfect, just like Jesus. Our souls are in prgress. Our flesh is carnally sinful. It is this perfection of spirit that allows us to understand when John says:
1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
We cannot sin (3:9) because our spirit is perfected. We do sin (1:9) because our flesh is sinful.
The Holy Spirit has come to live within us, to guide us; we have the Spirit without measure, Dan. We
can do all the works Jesus did, and greater works than these. Whether we walk in that faith is another matter (and really the matter of this thread).
This is all good stuff ABM, but not at all what I was talking about. Of course we are perfected in spirit. We are "one spirit" with Him, and "As He is, so are we in this world", we are "the spirits of just men made perfect", and our spirits "cannot sin". Also the "annointing which we have of him abideth in us", and we "know all things". So spiritually speaking we have no lack in our union with God through His Spirit joining with ours.
However, that is not what I was talking about. The Baptism in the Holy Ghost is not the Holy Spirit joined to our spirit, it is the
Holy Spirit upon our flesh:
16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
-Acts 2:16-18
And this is definitely not without measure.
Jesus had the Spirit without measure:
34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for
God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
-John 3:34-35
I am not going to go into a full study on this, I don't have time. But here are three things to consider:
- Jesus had all the gifts of the Spirit in operation in His life and ministry, while we do not. The Spirit divides the gifts to us severally as He will (1 Corninthians 12:11)
- The disciples were all filled with the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), yet a few days later they were filled again (Acts 4:31)
- The parable of the ten virgins shows that the oil in our vessels can run out (Matthew 25:1-12)
This is why the scripture that tells us to
be filled with the Spirit is more correctly translated by using the perfect indicative sense of
"be being":
18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess;
but be [be being] filled with the Spirit;
-Ephesians 4:18
Staying full of the Holy Spirit is not a one time event, nor do we get Him without measure on our flesh. It is a constant process of stayin full.
Your the second (at least) who has said this?? What version are you guys reading?? I don't know if I'd say it "demanded" and instant healing, but it certainly gave one--
Matthew 8:13 (NKJV)
Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that same hour.
"Same hour" is an idiom for "now." It is the "same, selfsame, that, this very, this" hour. Some translations say "that very moment." This healing did not take hours, days, months or years. It was immediate.
ASV: And the servant was healed in that hour.
BBE: And the servant was made well in that hour.
CEV: Right then his servant was healed.
DARBY: And his servant was healed in that hour.
ESV: And the servant was healed at that very moment.
HCSB: And his servant was cured that very moment.
ISV: And his servant was healed that very hour.
KJV: And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
KJ21: And his servant was healed in that selfsame hour.
NASB: And the servant was healed that very moment.
NIV: And his servant was healed at that moment.
YLT: and his young man was healed in that hour.
And also in Luke....
Luke 7:10 (NKJV)
Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.
Found him well. Didn't find him getting better, getting well, looking good. He was well.
And although the language "...began to amend..." is used here, this person definately did not display the faith of the centurion. Though he did "...believe the word that Jesus had spoken".
Sorry, a misapplication of a quote from another story.
I withdraw the analogy. I was confusing the story of the noblemans child with the centurions servant:
46So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman,
whose son was sick at Capernaum.
47When he heard that Jesus was come out of Judaea into Galilee, he went unto him, and besought him that he would come down, and heal his son: for he was at the point of death.
48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders,
ye will not believe.
49The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die.
50Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.
51And as he was now going down, his servants met him,
and told him, saying, Thy son liveth.
52Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend.
And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.
53So the father knew that it was at the same hour,
in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth:
and himself believed, and his whole house.
54This is again the second miracle that Jesus did,
when he was come out of Judaea into Galilee.
-John 4:46-54
And you bring up Daniel again? The atonement was bought at the cross. The OT saints did not have it available as they lived. They were under the Old Covenant. We are under the New Covenant. We have the atonement to our benefit, which procures our prosperity and it gives us authority over the devil who will try to interfere (as in Daniels case) or stop our blessing. Josua and Caleb waited 40 years because of the sin of the camp. Our sin is paid for -- it does not hinder or block our blessing. We are under a New Covenant.
I have adressed this above.
And what you say here does not preclude that one who has faith, may have "little faith" and may need to hear the Word and more of the Word. That is how faith cometh. This is why when you are going through something our teachers tell us that we need to lock ourselves into a room and study all the healing scripture that we can. We need to know that we know that we know.
Certainly not. I agree 100%.
And man went several thousand years without the indwelling Spirit and had to rely on miracles instead of healings. We have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and a spirit that has been perfected.
I'm not sure why you're focusing here on miraculous signs and wonders. I'm focusing on our healing benefit as part of the atonement.
Blade...head...full grain. Context, man, context. Mark 4 begins with the parable of the sower. Parables because (4:10-12) the believers get the mysteries of the kingdom of God; the unbelievers get parables. The meaning, v13+ is all about sowing the Word of God unto salvation for a lost world. Wayside...stony ground...thorns...good ground. The Word takes root and grows, faith comes alive and grows, faith and understanding become stronger. A baby, milk drinking Christian can then become a meat-eater (for Rom 14:2 - "whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables" -- oops, sorry, I'm a meat eater
).
So, yes,
faith works under this principle, this picture. But the
results of faith are not what is being spoken of. Rather the building of faith, the maturing in Christ, the growing into a strong Christian.
Signs and wonders are for the unbeliever, worked through the beleiver's faith. Even Jesus chided the Jews for demanding signs and wonders.
The healing and other blessings given to us in the atonement are not signs and wonders, they are God's promises and blessings in our lives. They are not miraculous in the sense of these type of miracles, but they are spiritual and should be part of our everyday life: we should LIVE healthy - we should not need a healing; we should LIVE prosperous - we should not need a bailout; we should LIVE in the blessing - and never walk in the curse.
Much of this I agree with, and I don't want to be too picky. However, there is a difference when we are talking about walking in the blessing, maintaining our health and healing and wholeness, and believing for healing for something that we were born with, or occured to us while a sinner, such as losing a limb, being born without limbs, genetic defects, deformities, etc.
In such cases, and immediate healing would be miraculous. And such miraculous healings don't often take place without a persons faith touching the annointing as per the gifts of the Spirit that operated in the life of Jesus. That is why I bring up this subject. The events of Jesus life portrayed to us the Father. But the time spans involved in things are not representative, IMHO. I mean, Jesus didn't enter ministry until he was 30. Should that be a rule? He only acted as a minister for 3 and one half years, should that be a rule? No, those were things that were particular to Jesus calling and mission and annointing. And so is the instantaneousness of the
miracles not representative of how faith normally operates in a fallen world (though I do believe it is of how faith would operate in a world not fallen and without opposition), but rather
representative of the giftings and presence of the Holy Spirit upon His flesh being without measure.
Do you think that these poeple didn't have any faith until Jesus showed up? Healing was all throught the Old Covenant. Are you saying no one started believing it until Jesus came? Well, of course not. People were believing, but their believing wasn't hooking up with the annointing per the gifts of the Spirit. They could certainly appropriate the promises to live a healthy life, and a properous one, following the principles of the word and faith, that is, first the blade, then the ear, then the full corn in the ear. But an instantaneous manifestation? That required the giftings of the Spirit with which Jesus walked without measure.
It is very much applicable to this discussion. Because you are using someone (Jesus) that walked in all the giftings of the Spirit, in fact, had the Spirit without measure, and are using that as the baseline. I like what Kenneth Hagin said about this in His book The Holy Spirit And His Gifts- He said that Jesus had the Spirit without measure, and He still has. We, as individual members of the body of Christ do not have it without measure, but collectively we do, as we are a part of His body.
Agreed. And this has been covered and discussed. One's love walk, one's forgiveness, etc., all impact. Faith without works is dead. This statement indicates that one can have faith (I'd assume full faith, "big" faith) but without works, without love, without forgivenes it won't function -- ever. Lack of love (that isn't repented) will still render your faith dead -- it doesn't just slow it down.
This would need to be prayed about and revealed to the person. But, to turn this back to the OP, the question here is about people being told to stand and stand and stand: when there is something wrong -- "little" faith, I say, is the most common culprit; lack of love, forgiveness, etc.; but in any case, the manifestation did not come: something is wrong and these people are simply "standing pat." If the healing does not come NOW, then something needs to change. Because God ALREADY PROVIDED your healing. It is no time to doubt, but it is time to get off your blue jean cladded butt and get moving toward the goal. It's on the table for you! Go get it!!
Agreed.
I overall agree with you here, except for the death part. We can influence death when it attacks prematurely. Whether you believe we've been given 70-80 years or whether 120 (me!), someone who dies prior to this succumbed to the curse. We know of cases where some have been raised from the dead. But given a full life, they will die again (short of the rapture).
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death
And sin has not been eradicated from this earth, we are covered by blood. We are still sinful in the flesh, and we still sin. Death is not removed from us....yet.
Romans 8:10
But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.
Christ is in us, yet we will still die (physically) but we have life (spiritually). And the next verse is apropos to this thread:
Romans 8:11
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
You see our spirit was made perfect by the Spirit who lives in us. And a benefit is that He gives life even to our physical, mortal bodies. That's health. And it is part of the atoning process -- but we have to have faith and take it.
1 Corinthians 15:25-26
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Death will only be defeated when He has put all enemies under His feet. Biblically, this is when He returns in glory.
So, temporary and premature death: yes - we need the boldness and the faith to raise them. Missing limbs, blind eyes, dumb tongues, shut ears ... they should be healed (miraculously). But we need a boldness and a surity in our faith. For that we need to hear and hear the Word of God and build that mountain moving faith.
Death was part of the curse that we have been delivered from. Sin, sickness, poverty and all the rest are symptoms of that death. We have been delivered from that death, but this deliverance has yet to be consummated. I see no difference between sickness and death except for degree. And it is we, the church, that will come into the unity of the faith, and the full measure of the Holy Ghost, until we walk right out of these corruptible bodies into our incorruptible ones, and meet the Lord in the air.
Peace...
