Waiting for healing?

Does Luke 17:12-19 fall into this category also? 14"And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed."

the first time he laid hands on him he was partially healed " he saw men as trees ". Meaning he saw the shapes , he now could see a little. Kind of like someone today asking Christ to come into their hearts . They are initially healed , they can see a little .

The second time he was fully healed . My opinion is this teaches us to ask Jesus to heal us fully. Not just so we can see a little, but to see clearly , and have full life renewal through Him. So by not falling away , or back into our old lives and habits after being touched once by Him, we get truly healed , all the way

PreacherMike said:

I actually took this off the original thread as I didn't want to muddy the waters over there...



I always wondered about this too... This is the only example I can recall of this in the NT...

Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Why did this happen in this manner, was Jesus teaching us that it is possible for someone to be healed gradually, although in this instance it was within a few minutes of Jesus laying hands on him...

Why did Jesus have to lay hands on him twice and what is the lesson we learn from it?

Click to expand...

I believe it has more to do with this...
I mean here we have Jesus and He can't heal people. Realize that it does not say that He wouldn't heal them. It says He "could do" no mighty work.

Also, once again we do not have an example of a healing taking a few days, a month or two, a year. We either have (a) NOW (or 'that hour'), or we have (b) unbelief on the part of the receiver.

We also have the same dynamic at work with Peter.
Now look carefully. We have Jesus who is walking on water. Peter who has faith enough to step out. What made him sink? He looked at his surroundings. "He was afraid."

And Jesus told him what his problem was: "O you of little faith."

Jesus wasn't concerned with being politically correct. He wasn't concerned with being compassionate at this moment. He told it like it was: it was the believer's problem; it was "little faith."

Note also that Peter walked on water. Yes, he did indeed. He HAD THE FAITH for a moment. He had the faith big enough to walk on water until -- until he looked at his condition, his surroundings.

Why do we never question whether we are saved? Because we can't see it. We accept by faith the Word of the Gospel message that if we believe on the name of Jesus we WILL be saved.

Why do we sometimes not get healed? Because we can see our condition. And our condition knocks us down. Consider this....
Jairus comes to Jesus because his daughter is dying. Because of the woman with the issue of blood, he had to wait. But he had faith in Jesus. Then his circumstances showed up: "Your daughter is dead..."

Jesus IMMEDIATELY turned to him and said: "Do not be afraid! Only believe!!" In other words, do not let the circumstances that you can see, hear, taste, smell and touch knock down your faith.

It is about the believer's faith. It is about keeping it "big" faith -- Jesus turned immediately to him and said "Keep your faith big; do not let it become "little faith" and your daughter will be made well."

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, but if you are not being healed is it not God's fault (He's not waiting on something), it's not your neighbor's fault, it's not your spouses fault -- it is your fault. Sorry if that doesn't sound compassionate.

And it is not about doubting your faith: it is about taking "little faith" and buiding it up to be "big faith." Get to it.

Just another thought. Sometimes people are never healed. Paul had great " faith " I would think , and he talks about a torn in his flesh. If we could heal ourselves with strong faith Paul surely could have right ?

Also , Timothy had a stomach issue in which Paul says " take some wine..." again Paul and Timothy had tremendous faith. God flat out does not heal people sometimes, no matter their faith.

PreacherMike said:

Paul never said he was sick, he said he had a thorn in his flesh... usually anytime someone is annoying us we describe them as a thorn in our flesh but most people totally disregard that when it comes to paul and try to make it a sickness, read the previous chapter, he was talking about people who were being used as messengers of satan to buffet him.,..

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Ah , that is interesting. I never thought of it that way : )

I wish you would go in the widows forum and tell them that.Not being mean.I believe in healing.The pain over there is real guys.Jesus would not place blame.He would pick up that one and move on with them.

Timothy is an interesting case. It wasn't just his stomach, he also had "often infirmities". Those that ciriticize the faith message often use Timothy as an example to try and prove that God doesn't 'will' to heal everybody. But that is not even a consideration in these forums. We, in the WOF forums, believe that the Bible is clear that Gods perfect will for all is total physical healing. Add to that the fact that Timothy is the only example we have of a New Testament believer who was sick, then such an interpretation violates the rest of the Bible in context, so there must be another reason for this having been inspired by the Holy Spirit to be in the text.

So first, was Timothy sick? The answer to that is that he was more likely 'sickly' than 'sick':

23Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
-1 Timothy 5:23

Now, we don't know what this means exactly, but I know how I read it. Infirmities doesn't always mean sickness, it can also be translated as weakness, but I think that the context shows that it was a physical ailment of some sort.

He had stomach problems and oftimes experiences infirmities of the flesh. He could have had some genetic or chemical or hormonal or cellular imbalance that caused these things, a challenge most of us don't face. Then again, he could have gotten some kinda bacteria from the water or, as PreacherMike mentioned, goats milk. But most all sickness is caused by bacteria and/or viruses, so that would still mean it was a sickness.

He wasn't incapacitated, he just had stomach and physical ailment 'issues' that appear to have been chronic at the time, to which he had not yet received a full manifestation of healing for. Keep in mind also that letters took a long time to get from one place to another in those days. So this wasn't something that had just happened. For Paul to be writing to him about it suggests that it had been a struggle for Timothy for some time.

Was Timothy believing for his healing? I, personally, and certain of that. Did he have faith? I am certain of that also. Why am I certain of that? Because Paul said so in his letters to him:

Pauls said he had faith;

5When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.
-2 Timothy 1:5

Paul said he had attained to the words of faith:

6If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
-1 Timothy 4:6

And Paul remimded him to fight the good fight of faith:

12Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
-1 Timothy 6:12

Nothing in these verses claims that he was using his faith specifically for healing, but as a dsciple of Pauls, I have no doubt that he was.

So if Timothy was 'sickly', what do we learn from this passage of scripture:

If we accept the fact that Timothy knew about divine healing and was excercising his faith in that regard, then what is the Holy Spirit telling us by this verse:

23Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
-1 Timothy 5:23

I think there are two lessons.

1. healing doesn't always manifest instantaneously, regardless of the level of faith
2. medication (and by extrapolation doctors) are encouraged during the time that you are believing for your healing but have not yet received it
3. whether a persons healing has manifested yet is no indicator of their level of faith, only their confession is, as we fight the fight of faith with our words

Thank you for your time.

Peace...

PreacherMike said:

I actually took this off the original thread as I didn't want to muddy the waters over there...

I always wondered about this too... This is the only example I can recall of this in the NT...

Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Why did this happen in this manner, was Jesus teaching us that it is possible for someone to be healed gradually, although in this instance it was within a few minutes of Jesus laying hands on him...

Why did Jesus have to lay hands on him twice and what is the lesson we learn from it?

Click to expand...

i think JESUS was helping the guy RECEIVE NOW...... people always received now with JESUS..... and for some reason this is what the guy needed to receive now..... a second touch of GOD'S power..... to deal with whatever was happening now with the man's faith..... or his doctrines..... or who knows what was going on with the blind guy..... JESUS KNEW and did something to help him receive NOW....

The Luke 17 account of the lepers - At first, all ten were cleansed then sent to the priest. On their way, one leper realized he was healed, returned to give praise, and was healed completely (which shows getting into an atmosphere of praising Him, His healing will occur - actually I think it was worship because that's when we get our minds off ourselves). We seem to concentrating on physical healing but the Luke 17 account indicates more than physical healing plus it was gradual. (Scriptures at bottom). Not that Yahweh can't heal spirit, soul, and body in a snap.

Also, Luke 13 the account of a woman who had a spiritual problem that manifest itself as a physical one for 18 years. The cause of her sickness - v. 16 "And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound,..." v 11 explains how he had done that - with a spirit of infirmity. v. 11 she was "...was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself." When Yeshua laid hands on her, she was delivered/healed and stood up straight (v 13). (which supports asking them to do something that they had not been able to do). Of course, not everyone whose sick needs deliverance imo.

Luke 17:13 "And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us. 14And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed. 18There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger. 19And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole."

Rememberme said:

I wish you would go in the widows forum and tell them that.Not being mean.I believe in healing.The pain over there is real guys.Jesus would not place blame.He would pick up that one and move on with them.

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Who are you responding to, and what are you talking about?

Peace...

dkbwarrior said:

Timothy is an interesting case. It wasn't just his stomach, he also had "often infirmities". Those that ciriticize the faith message often use Timothy as an example to try and prove that God doesn't 'will' to heal everybody. But that is not even a consideration in these forums. We, in the WOF forums, believe that the Bible is clear that Gods perfect will for all is total physical healing.

Paul said he had attained to the words of faith:

6If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
-1 Timothy 4:6

And Paul remimded him to fight the good fight of faith:

12Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
-1 Timothy 6:12

Thank you for your time.

Peace...

Click to expand...

the entire BIBLE has recorded the various failings of the greatest FAITH people.... abraham.... david.... paul.... timothy.... etc.... lots of failings all through the BIBLE.... but....

i don't believe GOD wanted these failings to be used to create doctrine....

they are recorded/included in the BIBLE because they happened.... the BIBLE is full of honest statements on everything.... (no sugar-coating or re-writing history).... to prove to us that no matter how bad it is.... or how bad we mess up.... (even the most FAITH -ful of us can mess up).... GOD is still able to redeem us and our situations..... our GOD and HIS WORD always WINS.... that is what JESUS' consistently proved..... in the entire BIBLE JESUS is GOD'S SURE example of GOD'S SURE will.... and therefor doctrine....

doesn't GOD want ALL our doctrine to come ONLY from HIS clearly expressed WORDS/WILL.... and especially JESUS' WORDS.... LIFE..... MINISTRY.... as GOD'S perfect example of GOD'S will for all men for all time on earth.....

why compare paul/timothy/other's failures to JESUS perfect example and WORDS?..... we want JESUS' example of GOD'S will for our lives.... no one else's.... i see JESUS and i see paul and timothy..... i choose JESUS.... i want the fullness of what HE offered.... not the partial that paul and timothy offered/exemplified....

especially considering JESUS said we would do greater than HIM.... i don't see the examples of paul and timothy as being greater than JESUS' examples....

9. We believe that the faith to receive any of the Promises of God comes from hearing God's Word alone; that God's Word is alive and powerful, and every Promise therein contains the faith of God, sufficient to bring itself to pass in the life of any person who believes His Promise in their heart, and confesses it with their mouth. What God has so wonderfully provided by His grace we receive by faith.

12. We believe Jesus, in His life and ministry on earth, demonstrated God's perfect will for the earth in all matters for all time.

love you all.... you are awesome.... praying for us all to rise to the fullness of JESUS in all we say and do.... we are HIS body in the earth to show forth HIS goodness to all men.... to do as HE did and greater....

HolySpiritWOF2 said:

the entire BIBLE has recorded the various failings of the greatest FAITH people.... abraham.... david.... paul.... timothy.... etc.... lots of failings all through the BIBLE.... but....

i don't believe GOD wanted these failings to be used to create doctrine....

they are recorded/included in the BIBLE because they happened.... the BIBLE is full of honest statements on everything.... (no sugar-coating or re-writing history).... to prove to us that no matter how bad it is.... or how bad we mess up.... (even the most FAITH -ful of us can mess up).... GOD is still able to redeem us and our situations..... our GOD and HIS WORD always WINS.... that is what JESUS' consistently proved..... in the entire BIBLE JESUS is GOD'S SURE example of GOD'S SURE will.... and therefor doctrine....

doesn't GOD want ALL our doctrine to come ONLY from HIS clearly expressed WORDS/WILL.... and especially JESUS' WORDS.... LIFE..... MINISTRY.... as GOD'S perfect example of GOD'S will for all men for all time on earth.....

why compare paul/timothy/other's failures to JESUS perfect example and WORDS?..... we want JESUS' example of GOD'S will for our lives.... no one else's.... i see JESUS and i see paul and timothy..... i choose JESUS.... i want the fullness of what HE offered.... not the partial that paul and timothy offered/exemplified....

especially considering JESUS said we would do greater than HIM.... i don't see the examples of paul and timothy as being greater than JESUS' examples....

9. We believe that the faith to receive any of the Promises of God comes from hearing God's Word alone; that God's Word is alive and powerful, and every Promise therein contains the faith of God, sufficient to bring itself to pass in the life of any person who believes His Promise in their heart, and confesses it with their mouth. What God has so wonderfully provided by His grace we receive by faith.

12. We believe Jesus, in His life and ministry on earth, demonstrated God's perfect will for the earth in all matters for all time.

love you all.... you are awesome.... praying for us all to rise to the fullness of JESUS in all we say and do.... we are HIS body in the earth to show forth HIS goodness to all men.... to do as HE did and greater....

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Do you consider Timothy a failure in this case?

I don't.

He would only be a failure if he quit fighting the good fight of faith. I don't believe that he did, and I suspect that he received what he was believing for.

Many Old Testament saints did not recieve the promises they were believing for, yet their faith is held up as examples for us:

13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
-Hebrews 11:13

As I said, our confession reveals our faith, not our experience. For being Word poeple, we too often seem to get caught up on what we 'see', as being the evidence for what they believe. But faith is "...the evidence of things not seen".

If instant manifestations are the result of perfect faith, then faith would not be the evidence of the unseen, but rather the seen.

Peace...

PreacherMike said:

Good post ABM but just to be clear...

Do you think people can be healed gradually... when I say "can be" I mean is it a possibility or do you think all healing should be instantaneous...

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Ah, the direct question; now you'll see the crack in my armor. When i started the other thread i was hoping for all this scripture to flow in that I hadn't considered. It didn't come. I've heard the fig tree application before, and frankly that is the closest -- but for me it doesn't compare to the direct examples. And even at that, whether fig tree or two shots at the blind man, it is still "this day."

My human desires WANT there to be a gradual healing. There are times I get an ailment (sick or pain) and it doesn't leave me NOW. In my beliefs what am I left with: my little faith. And I say "no, I have good faith." But I have to admit that I have not cast out demons or raised the dead; have never layed hands and had the blind see or the deaf hear. So what great faith? If I were a disciple with Peter and Thomas, what would my Lord say to me?

So, I'd like to -- it's easier and more "compassionate" -- but it isn't in scripture unless we stretch, turn out head sideways, squint our eyes and cover our heads with a bag. Scripture shows me "this hour." So I'll go with scripture and say immediate (or so near to it that it is still "this hour," leaving us to only look at ourselves and our faith.

His grace certainly is sufficient. And in that grace I know how to get more faith, how to build my faith: it's called hearing and hearing and hearing the Word of God.