I have been following this thread, and didn't know if I wanted to weigh in or not, because I don't want to get caught up in a days long discussion. I don't really have the time for that right now. But let me say this. I have put no small effort into the determination of this very subject over the past few years. And in my opinion, I think what is being left out of the narrative is the fact that Jesus had the Spirit without measure.
When you were born again, Dan, your spirit was made perfect. Your soul is being regenerated over time toward perfection. But you are, in spirit, as Jesus was. It is a larger study to do it justice, but...
Hebrews 12:23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect
Our spirits have been made perfect, just like Jesus. Our souls are in prgress. Our flesh is carnally sinful. It is this perfection of spirit that allows us to understand when John says:
1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
We cannot sin (3:9) because our spirit is perfected. We do sin (1:9) because our flesh is sinful.
The Holy Spirit has come to live within us, to guide us; we have the Spirit without measure, Dan. We
can do all the works Jesus did, and greater works than these. Whether we walk in that faith is another matter (and realy the matter of this thread).
The story of the centurions servant is particulary relevant to your theological construct here. The passage tells us that he 'began to get better' from the hour that Jesus spoke the word. Yet Jesus said that He had 'not found so great faith, not in all Israel'. If the speed of the manifestation was due soley to the level of ones faith, surely this particular case would have demanded an instant healing, if any did. Yet it apparently did not.
Your the second (at least) who has said this?? What version are you guys reading?? I don't know if I'd say it "demanded" and instant healing, but it certainly gave one--
Matthew 8:13 (NKJV)
Then Jesus said to the centurion, Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you. And his servant was healed that same hour.
"Same hour" is an idiom for "now." It is the "same, selfsame, that, this very, this" hour. Some translations say "that very moment." This healing did not take hours, days, months or years. It was immediate.
ASV: And the servant was healed in that hour.
BBE: And the servant was made well in that hour.
CEV: Right then his servant was healed.
DARBY: And his servant was healed in that hour.
ESV: And the servant was healed at that very moment.
HCSB: And his servant was cured that very moment.
ISV: And his servant was healed that very hour.
KJV: And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
KJ21: And his servant was healed in that selfsame hour.
NASB: And the servant was healed that very moment.
NIV: And his servant was healed at that moment.
YLT: and his young man was healed in that hour.
And also in Luke....
Luke 7:10 (NKJV)
Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.
Found him well. Didn't find him getting better, getting well, looking good. He was well.
Abraham waited 25 years for the birth of Isaac. Daniel waited 21 days for the angels answer, Joshua and Caleb had to wait 40 years to enter the promised land. And don't forget that many Old Testament saints saw, embraced, and believed the promises, but NEVER RECEIVED THEM. This however, does not mean that their faith was lacking. Because faith is the evidence of things not seen, I personally believe that this is the evidence of greatest faith, that is, the faith that doesn't give up, even when it never sees. I have said many times, that if I die before the rapture, I will die believing that I am healed.
And you bring up Daniel again? The atonement was bought at the cross. The OT saints did not have it available as they lived. They were under the Old Covenant. We are under the New Covenant. We have the atonement to our benefit, which procures our prosperity and it gives us authority over the devil who will try to interfere (as in Daniels case) or stop our blessing. Josua and Caleb waited 40 years because of the sin of the camp. Our sin is paid for -- it does not hinder or block our blessing. We are under a New Covenant.
And what you say here does not preclude that one who has faith, may have "little faith" and may need to hear the Word and more of the Word. That is how faith cometh. This is why when you are going through something our teachers tell us that we need to lock ourselves into a room and study all the healing scripture that we can. We need to know that we know that we know.
Jesus lived 30 years and we have no record of a single miracle being performed prior to him being baptized in the Spirit in the river Jordan.
And man went several thousand years without the indwelling Spirit and had to rely on miracles instead of healings. We have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and a spirit that has been perfected.
The gifts of the Spirit and faith based upon the Word of God simply work different, IMHO. The reason that we get them confused is because when God chooses to move in a generation and reveal more of Himself to us, He does so along with an outpouring of the rain, a special dfispensation of the miraculous, to confirm the word being preached/taught. Much as happened in the ministry of Jesus, and this results in miraculous, instantaneous and spectacular displays of power. We tend to get distracted by this, just as the followers of Jesus did during His ministry. We tend to think then that this is the way it is always supposed to be, and then when rain slows down, we get confused. We do not seem to understand that the miraculous is not intended to be a pattern for daily life, it has a more specific purpose, and that is to confirm the word with the intent of establishing the new paradigm of revelation being bestowed.
Faith does not work this way normally. Faith is the avenue by which we meet our needs, and the needs of others. It is how we live. It is not intended to be miraculous, or spectacular. Faith works on the principle of first the blade, then the ear, then the full corn in the ear. It often takes time to reach maturity or perfection in its manifestation because we still live in a fallen world, in corruptible bodies.
I'm not sure why you're focusing here on miraculous signs and wonders. I'm focusing on our healing benefit as part of the atonement.
Blade...head...full grain. Context, man, context. Mark 4 begins with the parable of the sower. Parables because (4:10-12) the believers get the mysteries of the kingdom of God; the unbelievers get parables. The meaning, v13+ is all about sowing the Word of God unto salvation for a lost world. Wayside...stony ground...thorns...good ground. The Word takes root and grows, faith comes alive and grows, faith and understanding become stronger. A baby, milk drinking Christian can then become a meat-eater (for Rom 14:2 - "whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables" -- oops, sorry, I'm a meat eater
).
So, yes,
faith works under this principle, this picture. But the
results of faith are not what is being spoken of. Rather the building of faith, the maturing in Christ, the growing into a strong Christian.
The Faith Movement was and is a move of God. Because of this it was ushered in along with a move of the Spirit to confirm the Word. Therefore things happened oftentimes miraculously, spectacularly, and immediately when one would believe. That was the partnering of the gifts of the Spirit with the message. But this knowledge and revelation has now been been rooted and established in the church. The move of the Spirit has passed over to other places. When it comes back, it will bring with it a new revival and a new message. We who read the books and saw the videos expext the same thing to happen in the same way, but it wont. This causes those that put their trust in the miraculous to doubt. But those that put their trust in the Word do not.
Signs and wonders are for the unbeliever, worked through the beleiver's faith. Even Jesus chided the Jews for demanding signs and wonders.
The healing and other blessings given to us in the atonement are not signs and wonders, they are God's promises and blessings in our lives. They are not miraculous in the sense of these type of miracles, but they are spiritual and should be part of our everyday life: we should LIVE healthy - we should not need a healing; we should LIVE prosperous - we should not need a bailout; we should LIVE in the blessing - and never walk in the curse.
While I believe that there is certainly some truth to what you say, about ones level of faith impacting the time to manifestation, that is not the only consideration, and the fact that someone has not yet received something that they are believing for is in fact no evidence by itself that the faith for such does not exist in the person. A persons level of faith can best be determined by ones confession, not by ones circumstance.
Agreed. And this has been covered and discussed. One's love walk, one's forgiveness, etc., all impact. Faith without works is dead. This statement indicates that one can have faith (I'd assume full faith, "big" faith) but without works, without love, without forgivenes it won't function -- ever. Lack of love (that isn't repented) will still render your faith dead -- it doesn't just slow it down.
Now, I would temper this by saying that if one is constantly confessing and not receiving, then there is probably a problem. But if there is an isolated area or areas where a particular manifestation is not occuring, and one understands the concepts of faith and is standing strong, I would not look to a lack of faith as the culprit.
This would need to be prayed about and revealed to the person. But, to turn this back to the OP, the question here is about people being told to stand and stand and stand: when there is something wrong -- "little" faith, I say, is the most common culprit; lack of love, forgiveness, etc.; but in any case, the manifestation did not come: something is wrong and these people are simply "standing pat." If the healing does not come NOW, then something needs to change. Because God ALREADY PROVIDED your healing. It is no time to doubt, but it is time to get off your blue jean cladded butt and get moving toward the goal. It's on the table for you! Go get it!!
Finally, one more point. I believe that the atonement covers more than even we have dared to believe. The atonement covers physical death itself. But where is the movement that we will live forever? It is not here, because inconvenient facts like death happening will put a stop to it. When are we going to wake up and believe for the impossible? There are some things, like death; such as someone born with no limbs, etc., that are going to require the corporate faith of the entire body, what the Bible calls the Unity of Faith, as well as the move of the Spirit combined to accomplish. I am going to copy and paste below another post I made recently adressing this concept.
I overall agree with you here, except for the death part. We can influence death when it attacks prematurely. Whether you believe we've been given 70-80 years or whether 120 (me!), someone who dies prior to this succumbed to the curse. We know of cases where some have been raised from the dead. But given a full life, they will die again (short of the rapture).
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death
And sin has not been eradicated from this earth, we are covered by blood. We are still sinful in the flesh, and we still sin. Death is not removed from us....yet.
Romans 8:10
But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.
Christ is in us, yet we will still die (physically) but we have life (spiritually). And the next verse is apropos to this thread:
Romans 8:11
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
You see our spirit was made perfect by the Spirit who lives in us. And a benefit is that He gives life even to our physical, mortal bodies. That's health. And it is part of the atoning process -- but we have to have faith and take it.
1 Corinthians 15:25-26
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Death will only be defeated when He has put all enemies under His feet. Biblically, this is when He returns in glory.
So, temporary and premature death: yes - we need the boldness and the faith to raise them. Missing limbs, blind eyes, dumb tongues, shut ears ... they should be healed (miraculously). But we need a boldness and a surity in our faith. For that we need to hear and hear the Word of God and build that mountain moving faith.
