Eternal Suffering or Annihilation?

he-man said:

Then why did you try to insinuate the dragon was cast out before the time of John?

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I did not say or insinuate any such thing and I do not know how you concluded that , but you are mistaken about me ...

the final antichrist is living in and ruling this earth at the time of Christ's return ...

he has not returned yet and said that the antichrist, [Satan as a man], must come first and take his place as head of a worldwide church controlling religion of men, linked completely to world government - Rev 13:3-8- and only the couple of thousand or so saints alive by then would resist him , but even they would be failing at the time jesus cuts short the apostasy by himself returning

the antichrist, man of sin, son of perdition who thus deceives the whole world and all mass religion that he is God incarnate, Emanuel, Christ and sits in the [unearthed] temple in Jerusalem telling himself he IS GOD , blasphemy for which the just punishment [for he is a Jew , as Jesus, else would not be accepted by Jews as their Messiah] is death , but nevertheless he is slain by 'strangers' , not Jews, to show him he is no God

2Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Ezekiel 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.


... there is evidence from Jerusalem that the Arabs have unearthed the temple , burrowing in from the back of the Al Aqsa mosque and dumping the priceless artefacts with masses of soil and rubble on the city dump in the valley of Hinnom ...

a few Jews have been recovering some of it from there, but they cannot stop the desecration because the Arabs have control of temple mount by law ...

perhaps another abomination that causes destruction is due ?

... the other perhaps interesting observation is that Satan knows that he has little time left when he comes to earth as a man , it is thus conceivable that the prophecy of St Malachy is true in which case we are not that many years from the rule of the antichrist on earth and the return of Jesus three and a half years after his three and a half year rule of all men [except the few saints who found the strait gate of the real Christ, the narrow way of loving, not sinning any more, in this life...

It is not a satan who deludes you into believing a lie.

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Codex Sinaiticus

2 Cor 4:4 But God hath blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world, Theophylact, and Augustine, all plead for the above meaning; and St. Augustine says that it was the opinion of almost all the ancients. (Wakefield, Adam Clarke Commentary)

Exo 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Mt 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the solicitousness1 of this world, and the beguilement of wealth, together suffocate the word, and becomes without fruit.
1* Greek μέριμνα concern, solicitousness; anxiousness


LEST they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, Matthew 13:14,15; ; Mark 4:12; ; John 12:40; and particularly Romans 11:8-10: God HATH GIVEN THEM THE SPIRIT of SLUMBER, EYES that they SHOULD not SEE…

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Yes indeed, the many are lost IN THIS WORLD to Satan's teachings leading up to his final world conquest , ALL THE WORLD will worship a false god [Rev 13:3-4] except the few [Matt 7:14] and the mANY will be destroyed...

BUT Jesus says that not just the few [Rev 7:3-4] ,but also countless many [Rev 7:9-10] will be SAVED , but the many AFTERWARD ...

wel after Jesus takes the few the many are destroyed and this earth and heavens are destroyed , so afterward is the new earth and heavens of the kingdom come and the rule of the REAL Christ, Jesus , king and high priest over the king-priests of the new earth who are no less than the saints he saved from this earth...

that is why Jesus' church is made up of sinners who STOPPED sinning, became saints, and had their love PERFECTED in baptism of 'fire', trial of their adherance to God's law of love to the death...

for Satan will behead any saints he fnds in this earth as 'heretics' to his false religion [much as the history of the mass churches of sinners shows , not just the Inquisition and throwing saints to the lions in Rome but endless remorseless unjust persecution of saints and prophets and the death of Jesus too]

thus we find the mass churches do not even speak of baptism of fire, because they cannot even fake baptism of the holy spirit since it brings all truth of God [and they are divided until SaTan comes and unites them, but in false doctrines... doctrines which can even today can be disproven from the words of true saints and prophets of God, but they are subtle ... like the idea of confession when one has no intention of stopping sinning at all]

strangertoo said:

I did not say or insinuate any such thing and I do not know how you concluded that , but you are mistaken about me ... the final antichrist is living in and ruling this earth at the time of Christ's return ... he has not returned yet and said that the antichrist, [Satan as a man], must come first and take his place as head of a worldwide church controlling religion of men, linked completely to world government - Rev 13:3-8- and only the couple of thousand or so saints alive by then would resist him , but even they would be failing at the time jesus cuts short the apostasy by himself returning.
the antichrist, man of sin, son of perdition who thus deceives the whole world and all mass religion that he is God incarnate, Emanuel, Christ and sits in the [unearthed] temple in Jerusalem telling himself he IS GOD , blasphemy for which the just punishment [for he is a Jew , as Jesus, else would not be accepted by Jews as their Messiah] is death , but nevertheless he is slain by 'strangers' , not Jews, to show him he is no God

2Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God

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2Th 2:3 Least to what extent deceive you accordingly; because that Day will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is disclosed, the son of destruction,
4 The one opposing and raising up over all that say they are God, or that is worthy of reverence; so that he as a god sits down in the temple of God, demonstrating that he, himself, is God.

strangertoo said:

BUT Jesus says that not just the few [Rev 7:3-4] ,but also countless many [Rev 7:9-10] will be SAVED , but the many AFTERWARD ...

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okay, my bad, but it was not Jesus who said that

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me,

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb

he-man said:

okay, my bad, but it was not Jesus who said that

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me,

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb

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It was Jesus who siad it , because Revelation is the revelation of Jesus Christ which was given to the messenger ['angel'] to bring it to John ... the elder is just a character in Jesus' vision, it is Jesus who is relaying this truth... not that it matters, as the 24 elders are all baptised of the spirit and so are taught of God as Jesus ...

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Revelation 5:8 and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having ... the prayers of saints.

--- perhaps we can both go back and delete this irrelevant conversation which has buried and killed this important thread , now dead from unimportant irrelevant misunderstandings which have now been resolved I hope ?

strangertoo said:

It was Jesus who siad it , because Revelation is the revelation of Jesus Christ which was given to the messenger ['angel'] to bring it to John ... the elder is just a character in Jesus' vision, it is Jesus who is relaying this truth... not that it matters, as the 24 elders are all baptised of the spirit and so are taught of God as Jesus ...

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

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So you think Christ is split into 24 elders?
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

One of the twenty-four elders, representing the Old and New Testament ministry, appropriately acts as interpreter of this vision of the glorified Church. [JFB]

but it is needless to inquire who the particular person was; it is enough to say, that he was one of the four and twenty elders about the throne, one that belonged to the church, perhaps the same as in Rev_5:5; who, in a visionary way, is represented as accosting John upon the above sight.[GILL]

he-man said:

So you think Christ is split into 24 elders?
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

One of the twenty-four elders, representing the Old and New Testament ministry, appropriately acts as interpreter of this vision of the glorified Church. [JFB]

but it is needless to inquire who the particular person was; it is enough to say, that he was one of the four and twenty elders about the throne, one that belonged to the church, perhaps the same as in Rev_5:5; who, in a visionary way, is represented as accosting John upon the above sight.[GILL]

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No , I do NOT ... and I never said anything like that... plaese stop making things up about me , it is absurd ...

Jesus stands at the right hand of God in the position of the right-hand covering cherub at the throne of God , the elders do not , nor could they, but are the elders of the Hebrews, one taken from every seventh generation without facing death, because God was pleased with their love :-

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

strangertoo said:

No , I do NOT ... and I never said anything like that... plaese stop making things up about me , it is absurd ...
Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

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Listen to what Proverbs tells you:

Pro 19:27 Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge

NOW, Read the whole thing

Mr 12:25 For when they rise out of the dead...
26 But concerning that raising of the dead,
27 God is not of the dead, but of the living: You err a great deal.

Heb 11:13 These all [Abraham, Isaac, Jacob] died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

... again, God's word is NOT for ANY private interpreter , despite there are tens of thousands of them alive today :-

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first,
that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

thus it is false to claim God's prophets are 'interpretters'

they do however convey what is truth appropriate to mankind in the age in which they live... mankind has come a long way [mostly away from loving one another in obedience to God] in the millennia covered by scripture ... consider what words are appropriate to men struggling out of the stone age for instance...

we need to be clear then, the scripture explains itself insofar as it is originally inspired by the holy spirit... God needs no help from conjectures of sinners about His word...

MORE importantly, God teaches ALL the few saints Himself, by spirit baptism to knwo ALL truth and the future , God does NOT rely on the translations by sinners that plague 'bible study' -

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: ... and he will shew you things to come.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.[Jesus]

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour,
and every man his brother,
saying, Know the Lord:
for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

God then does NOT entrust the teaching of the saints to sinners or even to saints , -saints are those few who stop sinning and love folks instead of sinning agianst them- instead God supplies all truth and knowledge of the future to His few saints ... and they , like Jesus, teach sinners, because where else would the enxt generation of saints come from?

BUT it is God who teaches the few the saints find who are seeking God's truth , not the ways of this world of its politics, religion, science, etc...

God alone teaches all truth to those under grace, so they have no need to ask their brothers - as indeed the new covenant states [above]

as for loving instead of sinning against folks, it is the only way to spirit baptism , which is why so very few find the way of Jesus, of love, of God, in this life [Matt 7:14] :-

1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Jesus came to destroy sin and bring folks to love instead , for sin is unloving and unloving is sin...

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

that then is what the many do not do, stop sinning, even though Jesus showed with his whole life that men do not need to sin... all who follow Jesus thus need to stop sinning else they are none of his :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

these scriptures are crystal clear about stopping sinning, so one must seek the understanding in scripure of why many say they believe in Jesus but never stop sinning in life...

this is the word from the beginning, but the ten commandments simplify love to a few simple instructions about not doing sin, not being unloving...

and the bible explains that God already knew how few of Israel would keep His commandments ... even before He gave them... so indeed things change a little for men in time, but not for God... it is as well to remember when looking at scripture, that it was written for different audiences at different times...

he-man said:

Listen to what Proverbs tells you:

Pro 19:27 Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge

NOW, Read the whole thing

Mr 12:25 For when they rise out of the dead...
26 But concerning that raising of the dead,
27 God is not of the dead, but of the living: You err a great deal.

Heb 11:13 These all [Abraham, Isaac, Jacob] died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

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strangertoo said:

... again, God's word is NOT for ANY private interpreter , despite there are tens of thousands of them alive today :-2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first,
that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
thus it is false to claim God's prophets are 'interpretters'
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.[Jesus] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

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[FUTURE TENSE]Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;

strangertoo said:

... BUT it is God who teaches the few the saints find who are seeking God's

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Tell me then are you giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of a devil? How is your hearing and how much milk do you drink and "Which is the first commandment of all?"
Mr 12:29 Jesus answered, The first to be is, Hear, 0 Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Heb 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
1
2 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of a devil;

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before this order of things began,

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all patience and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]lecherous [/FONT][/FONT]ears;

4 And they shall turn away ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Eph 4:14 That we be no more children, tossed by the sea, and carried about with every wind of instruction, by the game of dice1 of men, and intelligence, whereby they lie in wait to the pursuit of knowledge2;
1* Greek κυβεια the game of dice

2* Greek μεθοδείαν ‘pursuit of knowledge’

he-man said:

[/size][/color][/size][/color][/color] [FUTURE TENSE]Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;

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[again I ask you to discuss in loving manner fitting to the task , without all the premature inappropriate accusations/insinuations ... it does not prove your point to fling mud at me , it is senseless and counter-productive... pleas stop the ad hominem and false witness , it is not even allowed here - and in fact your view is mistaken simply because you have not studied every word of God

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.]

now , please read the original new covenant , which Paul is simply QUOTING in Heb 8:8-12 :-

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

now do you understand why it is future ?

the new covenant was given to Israel [only to Israel] in what we now call the OT ...

strangertoo said:

your view is mistaken simply because you have not studied every word of God now , please read the original new covenant , which Paul is simply QUOTING in Heb 8:8-12 :-

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.now do you understand why it is future ?

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That is why I said FUTURE!

[FUTURE TENSE]Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;

strangertoo said:

God does NOT rely on the translations by sinners that plague 'bible study' -
Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour,
and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

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[FUTURE TENSE]

strangertoo said:

BUT it is God who teaches the few the saints find who are seeking God's truth , not the ways of this world of its politics, religion, science, etc...
God alone teaches all truth to those under grace, so they have no need to ask their brothers - as indeed the new covenant states [above]

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2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before this order of things began,

strangertoo said:

as for loving instead of sinning against folks, it is the only way to spirit baptism , which is why so very few find the way of Jesus, of love, of God, in this life [Matt 7:14] :-
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Jesus came to destroy sin and bring folks to love instead , for sin is unloving and unloving is sin...

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Yes and that sin was our own works not some supernatural mythological being.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Mr 12:25 For when they rise out of the dead...
26 But concerning that raising of the dead,
27 God is not of the dead, but of the living: You err a great deal.

Heb 11:13 These all [Abraham, Isaac, Jacob] died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

[FUTURE TENSE]Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;

... read again... only the few [Matt 7:13, Rev 7:3-8] saints are saved by grace in this earth

the MANY of this earth are DESTROYED [Matt 7:13] for CONTINUING sin becuase the foundation of God is that men STOP SINNING and obey His commandment to love instead , sin is unloving , only love makes one at one with God :-

1 John 4:8-16 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
.... he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

again sin hurts folks, it is breaking God's law of love, sinners cannot be taken by Jesus because God requires saints to run the kingdom come... we have sinner kings and priests on this earth and see where it leads, destruction of almost everyone [Matt 7:13]

so it is no use pretending that scriptures addressed to saints are for sinners too, they say to whom they are addressed and much of scripture is addressed to the saints, not to sinners...

so the FEW who find the narrow way of LOVE, not sin to the strait gate of the real Jesus Christ are all saints , having given up sinning as Jesus showed us we can, and been forgiven by the new covenant which states to whom it applies [Jer 31:31-34] , the House of Judah ['Jews'] and the paganised lost House of Israel, both rejected by God for a long time but then accepted by Him AS IT SAYS in the new covenant WITH THOSE WHOSE FATHERS BROKE THE OLD COVENANT, with the house of Judah and the House of Israel... so READ IT in your bible please [Jer 31:31-34, Heb 8:8-12] ,,, read WHO is forgiven who was rejected previously ...

then you too will know why Jesus said he was sent by God ONLY to the LOST House of Israel and you will understand what the Christ, the Messiah is :-

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Why does this matter? Only because God made a promise for His own sake, so He could show all men His power to know the future , and here is that promise :-

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

so God is committed to re-uniting the two houses, nations, of Israel under an anointed king [Messiah, Christ] and making the united nation into His priests of Jesus' kingdom come ... but the Jews don't serve God sufficin=ently lovingly, as Jesus pointed out, and the House of Israel is scattered worldwide and still serving other gods and idols

Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

and God reckons that if he saves all Israel to be the saints He requires fro his royal priesthood then people will begin to see that He can indeed save anyone:-

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Jacob was renamed 'Israel' by God and Jesus names all the saints by descent from Jacobs sons [Rev 7:5-8] , all these sealed by the holy spirit , all these explicitlly included in the actual new covenant given to Israel [Jer 31:31-34] which is quoted by Paul [Heb 8:8-12]

so the FUTURE you refer to is future to when the new covenant was given to Israel by Jeremiah from God ... not from when Paul quoted what Jeremiah had said ...

but if you do not read the whole scripture, you will not understand that it must be and is one truth of God [else it would not be of one true God]

thus you will one day need to understand what Jesus said about religion of sinners in THIS world [Rev 13:3-8] , you will not understand why the Antichrist has to be a Jew to take Jesus' place in the minds of the MANY who will all die [Matt 7:13] and only the FEW find the way [Matt 7:14] ... the scripture proves by the words of Jesus and the saints that no mass religion even can be of the God of scripture because there are only tens of thousands of saints in this earth spread over the period between Jesus minstry and hs return, just some two thousand on average alive at any one time then... compare that to mass churches of sinners led not by saints, but by sinners... and weep because Satan has almost all power in this earth and God will not stop him destroying the earth and almost all in it through subtle deceits of religion and state... why? - because God reqires just a few saints to set up the kingdom and run it a thousand years before all sinners are released from death and hell , to be judged BY WORKS ... so read Jesus' words and decide whether or not to believe him or not:-

Revelation 20:13 ... and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

hell is completely emptied, all the dead are resurrected and they are judged not by grace but by works... so this is about the many destroyed for sin in this earth , not about the few who find the way as saints and rule as kings, minister as priests over the resurrected many in the kingdom come of Jesus' finally ruling men, but not in this world :-

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world

but neither is it in heaven, for the kings and priests reign on earth, not in heaven :-

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

so it is in the new earth, which is obvious because this earth and heavens are destroyed in the wrath of God against ALL still sinners that kills the many of this earth

so read what God says about the new earth and heavens :-

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

so it is RIGHTEOUS to God's law of love, the many can indeed be saved by loving works, resisting Satan's temptations to sin ... Jesus says countless many are saved AFTER the few of this life, after the many are destroyed [Matt 7:13-14] - Rev 7:9-10- so we know it is in the new earth kingdom come that most are saved , and because of the perfectede love of the few saints God takes from this life to set up the kingdom a thousand ears before the resurrection of ALL sinners from hell and death...

so i am growing tired of having to repeat myself over and over with no sign of any understanding in you of the scriptures I keep asking you to read and take in... so please raed what I have pointed out that God says in scripture before commenting further, then we can perhaps progress instead of your just denying what is written in so many scriptures... which leaves me no basis for discussion if you do not accept the scriptures...

the picture of Satan in mass religion is indeed false to scripture as a whole , but hardly mythological, but the adversary of God's scripture is real enough, manifests as the man of sin, son of perdition, claims to be God [2Thess 2:4] in the [unearthed] temple of God in Jerusalem ...deceives the whole world [Rev 13:3-4] bar a couple of thousand saints , and beheads many of them :-

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I doubt that you would think him a myth if you were a saint and he behe4aded you for your beliefs, claiming you were a heretic to his world religion ... thatb is what followers of Jesus face in the time just before Jesus' return... and beheading is still legal under Sharia law , and by that time the world is under a compromise one world governement, one world religion, one world army imposing the will of Satan as if it were the words of Christ, claiming he is God and Christ...

RobertZ said:

I never said that it wasnt. Its just that you and I will never agree on what it is to be eternally destroyed by God for mans rebellion against him.



God is eternal and if you are willing to live in rebellion against him for a lifetime then you will suffer for eternity aftwards. The only way for your suffering to end would be for God to come to an end and my friend that isnt going to happen.

Click to expand...

What Bible verse says that we will be suffering for eternity if we fail to meet God's standards? Plus how many people have lived and died not knowing God's ways? Will he condemn them to eternal suffering too?

strangertoo said:

the picture of Satan in mass religion is indeed false to scripture as a whole , but hardly mythological, but the adversary of God's scripture is real enough, manifests as the man of sin, son of perdition, claims to be God [2Thess 2:4] in the [unearthed] temple of God in Jerusalem ...deceives the whole world [Rev 13:3-4] bar a couple of thousand saints , and beheads many of them :-

Click to expand...

Tell me then are you giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of a devil?

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of a devil;

The word devil is derived from the Greek word diabolos ("to slander"), and the term devil can refer to a greater demon in the hierarchy of Hell. At the same time, the term devil is also derived from the same Indo-European root word for deva, which roughly translates as "angel."
It is easy to see how modern religions adapted the satan to mean "fallen angel".

Only rationalists like Maimonides and Abraham ibn Ezra, clearly denied (devils) their existence. Their point of view eventually became the mainstream Jewish understanding.
The Greek word daemon, daemon, appears in the works of Plato and many other ancient authors, without the evil connotations apparent in the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible and in the Greek originals of the New Testament.

Some say that Isaiah 14:12. "How are you fallen from heaven, O bright star [or shining one], son of the morning [or son of dawn]! how are you cut down to the ground, you who ruled the nations!" is about the "devil". Part of this is due to the fact that the term bright star or shining one is translated in Latin to lucifer, which means shining one. Now, the context of the verse and a bit of knowledge of history reviels that this is about the Babylonian empire. One of the main dieties of Babylon was "Ishtar", who was the "god" who was the morning star. Shining one, son of dawn is the morning star. The prophet was avoiding the use of the name of the not-god Ishtar. Reading verse 4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.
While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible. Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.

The idea that there exists anything capable of setting itself up as God's opponent would be considered overly polytheistic—you are setting up the devil to be a god or demigod.The notion of an angel having free will is alien to Judaism. Free will requires the tension created by being a soul dwelling in a body. People can have free will, angels can't.

There is a debate over whether they lack the potential for free will, or whether they simply percieve reality to clearly to have any choices to make. But in any case, without the fence-straddling of the human condition, there is no free will. HaSatan acts as a servant of God, not as an opponent or even disobediant child. Angels cannot sin, they cannot fall. (Soc.Culture.Jewish NewsgroupsFrequently Asked Questions and Answers)
The idea that there is a God in heaven above who fights against a god of the underworld, or hell, is not monotheism, however, it is the same duality found in other pagan faiths.
Through His prophet Isaiah, God profoundly states, "I form light and create darkness, I make peace and CREATE evil; I am God, I do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).Consider this: If there were such an opponent and foe of God (Satan) as Christianity claims, don't you think God is capable of eliminating His created angel with a mere breath - or thought (anthropomorphically speaking)? If God spoke him (Satan) into existence; God could simply quit speaking and Satan would simply cease to exist.
(Abraham Joshua Heschel, The Prophets, Jewish Publication Society, 1962, Philip Birnbaum, Encyclopedia of Jewish Concepts, Hebrew Publishing Company, 1991, Aryeh Kaplan, Jewish Meditation, Schocken Books, 1985.).

In the first entrance of evil into the world, the temptation is referred only to the serpent. In the book of Job we find for the first time a distinct mention of "Ha-Satan," the "adversary" of Job. But it is important to remark the emphatic stress laid on the subordinate position, on the absence of all but delegated power, of all terror and all grandeur in it's character. It is especially remarkable that no power of spiritual influence, but only a power over outward circumstances, is attributed to ha-satan. The subordination and inferiority are as strongly marked as ever
Of the nature and original state of Satan, little is revealed in Scripture.

As to the time, cause, and manner of his fall Scripture tells us scarcely anything; but it describes to us distinctly the moral nature of the evil. The ideal of goodness is made up of the three great moral attributes of God—love, truth, and purity or holiness; combined with that spirit which is the natural temper of the finite and dependent creature, the spirit of faith. We find, accordingly, that the opposites of these qualities are dwelt upon as the characteristics of the Ha-satan
.
The indirect action of ha-satan is best discerned by an examination of the title by which it is designated in Scripture. It is called emphatically in the Hebrew saÆtaÆn and is simply an "adversary," . The derivation of the word in itself implies only the endeavor to break the bonds between others and "set them at variance"; but common usage adds to this general sense the special idea of "setting at variance by slander."

The subject of temptation is illustrated, not only by abstract statements, but also by the record of the temptations of Adam and of our Lord. It is expressly laid down, as in James 1:13-16, that "temptation," is properly so called, "sin".
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
The 'popular' image of the Devil has no Biblical basis

The belief in huge creatures/monsters inhabiting the deep was widespread throughout the ancient world.

Certain Jewish legends consider leviathan as an androgynous dragon that seduced Eve in its male form, and Adam in its female form.
In demonology a leviathan is any aquatic demon.

DEMONIACS. This word is frequently used in the New Testament, and applied to persons suffering under the possession of a demon or evil spirit, such possession generally showing itself visibly in bodily disease or mental derangement.

It has been maintained by many persons that our Lord and the evangelists, in referring to demonical possession, spoke only in accommodation to the general belief of the Jews.

It is concluded that, since the symptoms of the affliction were frequently those of bodily disease (as dumbness, Matt. 9:32; blindness, Matt. 12:22; epilepsy, Mark 9:17-27), or those seen in cases of ordinary insanity (as in Matt. 8:28; Mark 5:1-5), the demoniacs were merely persons suffering under unusual diseases of body and mind.

But demoniacs are frequently distinguished from those afflicted with bodily sickness, see Mark 1:32; 16:17, 18; Luke 6:17, 18; the same outward signs are sometimes referred to possession, sometimes merely to disease, comp. Matt. 4:24 with 17:15; Matt. 12:22 with Mark 7:32, etc.;

Lastly, the single fact recorded of the entrance of the demons at Gadara, Mark 5:10-14, into the herd of swine, and the effect which that entrance caused, is sufficient to overthrow the notion that our Lord and the evangelists do not assert or imply any objective reality of possession.

woden said:

What Bible verse says that we will be suffering for eternity if we fail to meet God's standards? Plus how many people have lived and died not knowing God's ways? Will he condemn them to eternal suffering too?

Click to expand...

You are correct, there is no bible verse that says we will be suffering for eternity if we fail to meet God's standards. Failing to meet God's standards is called sin, and the wages of sin is death, according to the bible. Romans 6:23

he-man said:

Tell me then are you giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of a devil?

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of a devil;

The word devil is derived from the Greek word diabolos ("to slander"), and the term devil can refer to a greater demon in the hierarchy of Hell. At the same time, the term devil is also derived from the same Indo-European root word for deva, which roughly translates as "angel."
It is easy to see how modern religions adapted the satan to mean "fallen angel".

Only rationalists like Maimonides and Abraham ibn Ezra, clearly denied (devils) their existence. Their point of view eventually became the mainstream Jewish understanding.
The Greek word daemon, daemon, appears in the works of Plato and many other ancient authors, without the evil connotations apparent in the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible and in the Greek originals of the New Testament.

Some say that Isaiah 14:12. "How are you fallen from heaven, O bright star [or shining one], son of the morning [or son of dawn]! how are you cut down to the ground, you who ruled the nations!" is about the "devil". Part of this is due to the fact that the term bright star or shining one is translated in Latin to lucifer, which means shining one. Now, the context of the verse and a bit of knowledge of history reviels that this is about the Babylonian empire. One of the main dieties of Babylon was "Ishtar", who was the "god" who was the morning star. Shining one, son of dawn is the morning star. The prophet was avoiding the use of the name of the not-god Ishtar. Reading verse 4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.
While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible. Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.

The idea that there exists anything capable of setting itself up as God's opponent would be considered overly polytheistic—you are setting up the devil to be a god or demigod.The notion of an angel having free will is alien to Judaism. Free will requires the tension created by being a soul dwelling in a body. People can have free will, angels can't.

There is a debate over whether they lack the potential for free will, or whether they simply percieve reality to clearly to have any choices to make. But in any case, without the fence-straddling of the human condition, there is no free will. HaSatan acts as a servant of God, not as an opponent or even disobediant child. Angels cannot sin, they cannot fall. (Soc.Culture.Jewish NewsgroupsFrequently Asked Questions and Answers)
The idea that there is a God in heaven above who fights against a god of the underworld, or hell, is not monotheism, however, it is the same duality found in other pagan faiths.
Through His prophet Isaiah, God profoundly states, "I form light and create darkness, I make peace and CREATE evil; I am God, I do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).Consider this: If there were such an opponent and foe of God (Satan) as Christianity claims, don't you think God is capable of eliminating His created angel with a mere breath - or thought (anthropomorphically speaking)? If God spoke him (Satan) into existence; God could simply quit speaking and Satan would simply cease to exist.
(Abraham Joshua Heschel, The Prophets, Jewish Publication Society, 1962, Philip Birnbaum, Encyclopedia of Jewish Concepts, Hebrew Publishing Company, 1991, Aryeh Kaplan, Jewish Meditation, Schocken Books, 1985.).

In the first entrance of evil into the world, the temptation is referred only to the serpent. In the book of Job we find for the first time a distinct mention of "Ha-Satan," the "adversary" of Job. But it is important to remark the emphatic stress laid on the subordinate position, on the absence of all but delegated power, of all terror and all grandeur in it's character. It is especially remarkable that no power of spiritual influence, but only a power over outward circumstances, is attributed to ha-satan. The subordination and inferiority are as strongly marked as ever
Of the nature and original state of Satan, little is revealed in Scripture.

As to the time, cause, and manner of his fall Scripture tells us scarcely anything; but it describes to us distinctly the moral nature of the evil. The ideal of goodness is made up of the three great moral attributes of God—love, truth, and purity or holiness; combined with that spirit which is the natural temper of the finite and dependent creature, the spirit of faith. We find, accordingly, that the opposites of these qualities are dwelt upon as the characteristics of the Ha-satan
.
The indirect action of ha-satan is best discerned by an examination of the title by which it is designated in Scripture. It is called emphatically in the Hebrew saÆtaÆn and is simply an "adversary," . The derivation of the word in itself implies only the endeavor to break the bonds between others and "set them at variance"; but common usage adds to this general sense the special idea of "setting at variance by slander."

The subject of temptation is illustrated, not only by abstract statements, but also by the record of the temptations of Adam and of our Lord. It is expressly laid down, as in James 1:13-16, that "temptation," is properly so called, "sin".
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
The 'popular' image of the Devil has no Biblical basis

The belief in huge creatures/monsters inhabiting the deep was widespread throughout the ancient world.

Certain Jewish legends consider leviathan as an androgynous dragon that seduced Eve in its male form, and Adam in its female form.
In demonology a leviathan is any aquatic demon.

DEMONIACS.This word is frequently used in the New Testament, and applied to persons suffering under the possession of a demon or evil spirit, such possession generally showing itself visibly in bodily disease or mental derangement.

It has been maintained by many persons that our Lord and the evangelists, in referring to demonical possession, spoke only in accommodation to the general belief of the Jews.

It is concluded that, since the symptoms of the affliction were frequently those of bodily disease (as dumbness, Matt. 9:32; blindness, Matt. 12:22; epilepsy, Mark 9:17-27), or those seen in cases of ordinary insanity (as in Matt. 8:28; Mark 5:1-5), the demoniacs were merely persons suffering under unusual diseases of body and mind.

But demoniacs are frequently distinguished from those afflicted with bodily sickness, see Mark 1:32; 16:17, 18; Luke 6:17, 18; the same outward signs are sometimes referred to possession, sometimes merely to disease, comp. Matt. 4:24 with 17:15; Matt. 12:22 with Mark 7:32, etc.;

Lastly, the single fact recorded of the entrance of the demons at Gadara, Mark 5:10-14, into the herd of swine, and the effect which that entrance caused, is sufficient to overthrow the notion that our Lord and the evangelists do not assert or imply any objective reality of possession.

Click to expand...

Well, we know from Jesus that Satan fools the whole world except the few saints , so only few find the way [Matt 7:14] are saved at Jesus' return and the many die as wages of sin ... which doesn't sound as if Satan is a myth [ in Jesus' eyes ] :-

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

so you should ask yourself your question, because I am only following what Jesus says ...

do you see this is the very problem that comes to divide religion because you do not look at EVERY word of God before picking up the latest private interpretation of some sinner or another ...

as for the falling away/apostasy of the 'church' , the saints never would let that happen to teh church of God, but it began in Christianity with the declaration by a pagan Roman emperor that Sunday would be the day of rest in his version of Chrsitainity because Romans were used to Sunday , and because He wanted to persecute Hebrew saints because they had the truth , that God's sabbaths never could change to pagan days kept for false gods originally...

so your atack on me for nothing I have said is misplaced anyway, I am simply pointing at what the scripture of God says WITHOUT interpretation, how it explains its meaning if you live by its EVERY word

so, my answer to you is no... because these are Jesus' words on the matter, not mine ...

and 'Satan' is indeed the adversary , putting the case for sin against God's law of love and winning over the whole earth [again Jesus' words -Rev 13:3-4] except for Jesus' few saints...

so I ask you the same question, prefixed by why do you not accept Jesus revelation about Satan [which confirms that he is the very same serpent that is spoken of in teh 'garden of Eden' ...

and like I said, but you didd not bother to read apparently, 'Lucifer' is a very bad translation, but it makes no difference , there is only one covering cherub at teh throne of god who was in Eden in whom iniquity was found and it is not Jesus... it is Satan, the dragon, the serpent, the adversary to teh taechings of Christ and god and Jesus says that Satan is released after the Millennium to tempt all the resurrected sinners of this earth to continue rejecting God , but countless many choose God because of teh loving kingdom come, Satan has be4gun to lose support, no longer do almost all men choose sin...

but these are Jesus' words about Satan, how can you not have raed them, how can you justify not believing him ?

People can have free will, angels can't.

Click to expand...

the word 'angelos' means a messenger , that is all, and clearly God does use people as meesengers .... the bible speaks of many prophets being used as such ... and of people being unaware of the person being a messenger of God ... clearly indicating that they are people , indistinguishable from people ...

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

further consider Jesus standing at the right hand of the throne of God exactly where the right-hand covering cherub stands ... and consider that at one time or anothe every cherub bears the face of a man... do you deny Jesus was manifest as a man even though he was with God from the beginning before man was created , and created man ? [John 1]

again you are dragging up all manner of stuff from sinners [of the web?] instead of reading teh words of God in scripture ... do you not see that sinners serve Satan still until they stop sinning :-

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

is John speaking nonsense here , because you read some sinner claim there is no devil ?

no, it is the sinner who is deceived, not St John...

so why not read every word of scripture instead of this junk off sinners ?

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Jesus' point would be why do you believe every word of sinners instead of every word of God ? do you not know how subtly they twist even scripture IF you do not read every word ? Satan is subtle, persuasive, eplotative of every small thing one allows him ... if you do not even read and understand scripture then that is giving him your life in hands of his words, for only teh words of truth of God can defeat Satan's wiles, and he will certainly rejoice to hera you say he does not exist... makes life ery much easier for him if you do not believe he can deceive you because you think he is non-existent...

BUT that is not to say that the deceiver is not God's, all sinners still belong to God for His purpose in this creation ... all it is saying is that although Satan deceiebves all mass religion, politics, science, the whole world bas a few saints, he will eventually repent and accept Jesus BECAUSE every creature God created will bow to and accept Jesus eventually, God's love of creation requires that He persuade all of His truth of love against Satan's propaganda of sin and deceit... God's status as God of love relies on God's proving to all that He is right, that He is the worthy god, and Satan is no god at all despite his claims [eventually public 2Thess 2:4]

Job 12:16 With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

[and again, this is the KJV translation and I am well aware that 'for ever and ever' means nothing at all, but 'to the ages of theages' means until the end of time, which is very different ]

so please stop posting the work of other sinners , it has no credibility here , work from the scripture itself, ALL of it as ONE truth of God ....integrate it to find out what God menas, don't hypothesise with wild imaginings else you will be deceived by being seduced by one very persuasive spirit of all sinners ... what point when we have the word of God ?

strangertoo said:

[Matt 7:14] are saved at Jesus' return and the many die as wages of sin ... which doesn't sound as if Satan is a myth [ in Jesus' eyes ] Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Click to expand...

Do you recognize FUTURE TENSE when you see it? Why do you quote that verse as if it happened before the time of John or at the time of Adam & Eve?

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

strangertoo said:

and 'Satan' is indeed the adversary , putting the case for sin against God's law of love and winning over the whole earth [again Jesus' words -Rev 13:3-4] except for Jesus' few saints...

Click to expand...

You mean world powers> The first six heads were heathenish, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome; the new seventh world power (the pagan German hordes pouring down on Christianized Rome)

Its ascent out of the bottomless pit answers to the healing of its deadly wound (Rev_17:8). No essential change is noticed in Daniel as effected by Christianity upon the fourth kingdom; it remains essentially God-opposed to the last.
The beast, healed of its temporary and external wound, now returns, not only from the sea, but from the bottomless pit, whence it draws new Antichristian strength.
Antichrist, the same seventh world power in another form.JFB

strangertoo said:

and like I said, but you didd not bother to read apparently, 'Lucifer' is a very bad translation, it is Satan, the dragon, the serpent, the adversary

Click to expand...

איך נפלת משמים הילל בן-שחר נגדעת לארץ חולש על-גוים
[Hebrew הילל Hillel= Lucifer, morning star]

The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? 'Lucifer'? a Latin word (from the words lucem ferre), literally meaning "light-bearer", which in that language is used as a name for the morning star, the planet Venus, heralding daylight.

In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference.

Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light."

In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King").

In the Septuagint, a 3rd century BC translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek, it is translated as "heosphoros" which also means Venus as a morning star.

The actual name, "Lucifer," goes back to the Greeks, before the Romans. Socrates and Plato talk about this "god of light"; surprisingly, not in the context of Eos (god of Dawn), but -- as a morning star -- juxtaposed with the sun (Helios) and Hermes. This information can be found in Plato's Timaeus (38e) and in Edith Hamilton's Mythology."
Jews never believed in such a creature and still don't to this day.

he-man said:

Do you recognize FUTURE TENSE when you see it? Why do you quote that verse as if it happened before the time of John or at the time of Adam & Eve?

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. You mean world powers> The first six heads were heathenish, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome; the new seventh world power (the pagan German hordes pouring down on Christianized Rome)

Its ascent out of the bottomless pit answers to the healing of its deadly wound (Rev_17:8). No essential change is noticed in Daniel as effected by Christianity upon the fourth kingdom; it remains essentially God-opposed to the last.
The beast, healed of its temporary and external wound, now returns, not only from the sea, but from the bottomless pit, whence it draws new Antichristian strength.
Antichrist, the same seventh world power in another form.JFB
איך נפלת משמים הילל בן-שחר נגדעת לארץ חולש על-גוים
[Hebrew הילל Hillel= Lucifer, morning star]

The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? 'Lucifer'? a Latin word (from the words lucem ferre), literally meaning "light-bearer", which in that language is used as a name for the morning star, the planet Venus, heralding daylight.

In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference.

Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light."

In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King").

In the Septuagint, a 3rd century BC translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek, it is translated as "heosphoros" which also means Venus as a morning star.

The actual name, "Lucifer," goes back to the Greeks, before the Romans. Socrates and Plato talk about this "god of light"; surprisingly, not in the context of Eos (god of Dawn), but -- as a morning star -- juxtaposed with the sun (Helios) and Hermes. This information can be found in Plato's Timaeus (38e) and in Edith Hamilton's Mythology."
Jews never believed in such a creature and still don't to this day.

Click to expand...

we already covered all this , and I.m fully aware that Satan the antichrist is in the future and have said so many times already.... and I said originally that 'Lucifer' is a sad translation [ but it makes no difference because it is only used once in scripture and the one it refers to is identified as being in Eden and also with being at the throne of God as a covering cherub , yet becomes a man and dies, just as Jesus became a man and died, yet was translated and stood at the position of the right-hand cherub, so Satan is the left hand covering cherub, because he is identified as being in Eden as the serpent BY JESUS...

so essentially I think we agree on the above points I think and have done for some time... but you seem very agitated and not at all at peace... so why ???

it doesn't matter what 'Lucifer' means because the translation has long been recognised as poor ,
a flight of fancy by the translator...

but it matters not what is written there, the discussion is NOT about that word, - it is about the words which say :-

Ezekiel 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth
thee.

[ 2Thess 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.]

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, .... the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.


so this king/prince of Tyrus was covering cherub at the throne of God in heaven right next to God [but not on Jesus' side] cos' iniquity was found in this one and he was created, unlike the Word ['Logos'] which was not :-

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

and so becomes a man who thinks he IS above God , even gets to sit in God's temple in Jerusalem and say so ...

but also was in Eden... so who could it be ? ...well it isn't God, and it isn't Adam or Eve, so indeed it is the ancient serpent of the 'garden', Satan, the dragon, the devil :-

Revelation 20:2 ... the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan

Jesus confirms the reality of Satan here too , if one believes Jesus ....

Timothew said:

You are correct, there is no bible verse that says we will be suffering for eternity if we fail to meet God's standards.

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Wrong.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Failing to meet God's standards is called sin, and the wages of sin is death, according to the bible. Romans 6:23

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And that's why humans die. Everyone has sinned, except Jesus.