Apocalyptic Experience

hiscosmicgoldfish · Feb 25, 2012

I had an experience, and I don’t know whether it was just crazy, or a horrific vision of the future. It was my home town, and in the centre, they had set up an obelisk, as a centre of pagan worship, I could see it from the top of the hill overlooking the town. It was then as if I was actually there in this future and I could see it in the mind and hear what was going on. The atmosphere was like that of a party, there was loud rock music playing. People were walking around, with candy floss and sparklers, wearing Halloween costumes like witches and wizards etc. They had set up an enormous guillotine in the centre of town, the obelisk was at the centre, the machine would guillotine many people at the same time. The arena area was made of wood and was a multi-level platform where the spectators sat to watch. There was a drum roll and then a huge metallic crash as the blade came down. There were cages, where victims were together singing songs (I could hear them singing). There was sawdust and straw on the ground. It was like a vision, but with sounds also. The atmosphere was evil, suffocating evil. The people were all devoted to witchcraft, all revelling in the activity, but also secretly terrified at what was going on, confused but joining in out of fear. Most just didn’t care what was happening. Evil had come out onto the earth literally, demonic spirits were floating about everywhere. The activity went on all day, late into the evening. I knew what was going on behind the scenes in these cages, and I won’t repeat it here, just to say that the activity was totally evil.
If I had gone crazy, then the mind can generate some extraordinary stuff. I would not like a repeat of it all. Perhaps I had seen into a terrible future for the world?
And what makes me think is when Jesus said : 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
If the gates of hell are never to prevail against the church, then why this apocalypse? The people in the cages were persecuted Christian victims of this entirely satanic nightmare of a world, how could that be? Unless the church is perhaps raptured out, and the evil is then revealed in total? The mystery of iniquity is revealed after the restraint is taken out of the way?
Another aspect of the experience was that angels will use flying machines, which are able to hover in the air indefinitely. They are like spacecraft helicopters, they make a similar sound to helicopters, but the technology is out of this world. I thought that I was seeing something from the future, only this time is was good and pure. I could actually see these flying machines through the window, and I can’t figure that out still. There was a type of angel which is based on the crab or insect form. It has great power, and was used in the apocalypse to sort out evildoers. It was quite small, and made a clicking sound as it ran about. There was also a much larger angel which resembled a bird. The spacecraft helicopters might have been from the millennial kingdom; who knows what technology will be available for a thousand years.
I recently read a book by Joel Richardson; The Islamic Antichrist. I was shocked when I turned a page to read him speculate; will they set up guillotines in every town square? How far into the future is it? Will it really happen? Revelation says yes, there will be a vast multitude of martyrs who come out of the great tribulation. I just hope it is so far in the future, so I can avoid it, if it happens. I thought Richardson’s book was a good thesis; that it is the Ottoman Empire revived that is the kingdom of the beast. Mainly because the Roman Empire did not stamp on Iran or Iraq, only Islam and the Ottoman Turks did that, to encompass the previous empires of Babylon, Persia, Egypt, Assyria and North Africa. The legs of Iron on Nebuchadnezzar’s statue might be Rome at the top part of the legs, branching off into the two kingdoms of the Western Roman Empire, (replaced by the Holy Roman Empire) and the Byzantine Empire, taken over by the Ottoman Turks. The feet of clay being both sides of east and west in the last days, five kingdoms on each foot, as the toes, and clay being brittle and mixed with iron, meaning the iron of Rome/Ottoman being a fragile alliance. I also think there is an extra-terrestrial component to this prophesy; that they mingle with the seed of men, in the last days.
Whether I had an experience driven by the Holy Spirit, or just went mad for a while, I am not sure. It was suffocating to be in that atmosphere of evil. When it says ‘Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.” – it really means that the devil has been cast down to earth literally, and it seems to me that the Church will still be on the earth at that time?
So perhaps in future there will be a global alliance, with the Turkish Islamic Alliance on one side, and the European Union on the other side, representing the ten toes of the great statue; five kingdoms on each side. I still think that there will be a rapture, and there will obviously be Christians surviving in order for some to be taken, and some to be left behind. What might happen, is that there will be total existential panic in the Islamic world, when the Mahdi claims to be God, and people convert to Christianity. The persecuted Christians might be those who have rebelled against the total chaos of that time, the overwhelming evil, and they realise that the devil is at work in a big way on the earth, and the earth has gone mad. That would explain that the gates of hell have not prevailed against the church, because the church has been raptured, before the great tribulation?

13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulphur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. 19 For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.
20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. 21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.

When studying Revelation, I have concluded that the above chapter is all about the Ottoman Empire. This is because of… those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulphur yellow… these were the actual colours worn by the Ottoman Turks. If this is so, then Revelation is not all about the end-time tribulation, but is about history, a history of the Christian dispensation, and also the great tribulation in the future. Mystery Babylon is the mysterious religion which encompasses both sides of the legs of iron, of Nebuchadnezzar’s statue. An old Babylonian religion, which is Islam, and Mystery Babylon over on the other side. In the end they unify into one Babylon.

dana b · Feb 25, 2012

hiscosmicgoldfish said:
I had an experience, and I dont know whether it was just crazy, or a horrific vision of the future. It was my home town, and in the centre, they had set up an obelisk, as a centre of pagan worship, I could see it from the top of the hill overlooking the town. It was then as if I was actually there in this future and I could see it in the mind and hear what was going on. The atmosphere was like that of a party, there was loud rock music playing. People were walking around, with candy floss and sparklers, wearing Halloween costumes like witches and wizards etc. They had set up an enormous guillotine in the centre of town, the obelisk was at the centre, the machine would guillotine many people at the same time. The arena area was made of wood and was a multi-level platform where the spectators sat to watch. There was a drum roll and then a huge metallic crash as the blade came down. There were cages, where victims were together singing songs (I could hear them singing). There was sawdust and straw on the ground. It was like a vision, but with sounds also. The atmosphere was evil, suffocating evil. The people were all devoted to witchcraft, all revelling in the activity, but also secretly terrified at what was going on, confused but joining in out of fear. Most just didnt care what was happening. Evil had come out onto the earth literally, demonic spirits were floating about everywhere. The activity went on all day, late into the evening. I knew what was going on behind the scenes in these cages, and I wont repeat it here, just to say that the activity was totally evil.
If I had gone crazy, then the mind can generate some extraordinary stuff. I would not like a repeat of it all. Perhaps I had seen into a terrible future for the world?
And what makes me think is when Jesus said : 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
If the gates of hell are never to prevail against the church, then why this apocalypse? The people in the cages were persecuted Christian victims of this entirely satanic nightmare of a world, how could that be? Unless the church is perhaps raptured out, and the evil is then revealed in total? The mystery of iniquity is revealed after the restraint is taken out of the way? I dont know the answer.
Another aspect of the experience was that angels will use flying machines, which are able to hover in the air indefinitely. They are like spacecraft helicopters, they make a similar sound to helicopters, but the technology is out of this world. I thought that I was seeing something from the future, only this time is was good and pure. I could actually see these flying machines through the window, and I cant figure that out still. There was a type of angel which is based on the crab or insect form. It has great power, and was used in the apocalypse to sort out evildoers. It was quite small, and made a clicking sound as it ran about. There was also a much larger angel which resembled a bird. The spacecraft helicopters might have been from the millennial kingdom; who knows what technology will be available for a thousand years.
I recently read a book by Joel Richardson; The Islamic Antichrist. I was shocked when I turned a page to read him speculate; will they set up guillotines in every town square? How far into the future is it? Will it really happen? Revelation says yes, there will be a vast multitude of martyrs who come out of the great tribulation. I just hope it is so far in the future, so I can avoid it, if it happens. I thought Richardsons book was a good thesis; that it is the Ottoman Empire revived that is the kingdom of the beast. Mainly because the Roman Empire did not stamp on Iran or Iraq, only Islam and the Ottoman Turks did that, to encompass the previous empires of Babylon, Persia, Egypt, Assyria and North Africa. The legs of Iron on Nebuchadnezzars statue might be Rome at the top part of the legs, branching off into the two kingdoms of the Western Roman Empire, (superseded by the Holy Roman Empire) and the Byzantine Empire, taken over by the Ottoman Turks. The feet of clay being both sides of east and west in the last days, five kingdoms on each foot, as the toes, and clay being brittle and mixed with iron, meaning the iron of Rome/Ottoman being a fragile alliance. I also think there is an extra-terrestrial component to this prophesy; that they mingle with the seed of men, in the last days.
Whether I had an experience driven by the Holy Spirit, or just went mad for a while, I am not sure. It was suffocating to be in that atmosphere of evil. When it says Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time. it really means that the devil has been cast down to earth literally, and it seems to me that the Church will still be on the earth at that time?
So perhaps in future there will be a global alliance, with the Turkish Islamic Alliance on one side, and the European Union on the other side, representing the ten toes of the great statue; five kingdoms on each side. I still think that there will be a rapture, and there will obviously be Christians surviving in order for some to be taken, and some to be left behind. What might happen, is that there will be total existential panic in the Islamic world, when the Mahdi claims to be God, and people convert to Christianity. The persecuted Christians might be those who have rebelled against the total chaos of that time, the overwhelming evil, and they realise that the devil is at work in a big way on the earth, and the earth has gone mad. That would explain that the gates of hell have not prevailed against the church, because the church has been raptured, before the great tribulation?

13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates. 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulphur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killedby the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. 19 For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.
20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. 21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.

When studying Revelation, I have concluded that the above chapter is all about the Ottoman Empire. This is because of those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulphur yellow these were the actual colours worn by the Ottoman Turks. If this is so, then Revelation is not all about the end-time tribulation, but is about history, a history of the Christian dispensation, and also the great tribulation in the future. Mystery Babylon is the mysterious religion which encompasses both sides of the legs of iron, of Nebuchadnezzars statue.

I too sometimes experience fantastic reality which is what I call it. The evil that you had in your vision was not just seen but felt. Reform anything in your life that your conscience thinks needs reforming. Use this sign to advance yourself positiviely and you will clear the way for possibly more signs and visions. If you follow Jesus's advice to be a good person in every aspect then you probably will not go crazy. Use conscience as your handrail, keep walking with one hand upon it. If you do charity as the Apostle Paul said then this will all but guarantee that you will not go crazy even if you have visions.

About Islam being the bad guy, that is the way that crowds and masses of peoples have shouted down others, and obliged their leaders in killing and bombing nations. I wouldn't go down that road of speculationing in cases where some nations or peoples become correspondent to some type of bad guys. I think that that is very unChristian to find an contentment with war speculation. Jesus would be on the ground helping anyone who was being bombed. They could end up bombing Jesus because according to his ideas that is where he would like to be. With the oppressed which are anyone that are bombed.

hiscosmicgoldfish · Feb 25, 2012

dana b said:
I too sometimes experience fantastic reality which is what I call it. The evil that you had in your vision was not just seen but felt. Reform anything in your life that your conscience thinks needs reforming. Use this sign to advance yourself positiviely and you will clear the way for possibly more signs and visions. If you follow Jesus's advice to be a good person in every aspect then you probably will not go crazy. Use conscience as your handrail, keep walking with one hand upon it. If you do charity as the Apostle Paul said then this will all but guarantee that you will not go crazy even if you have visions.

About Islam being the bad guy, that is the way that crowds and masses of peoples have shouted down others, and obliged their leaders in killing and bombing nations. I wouldn't go down that road of speculationing in cases where some nations or peoples become correspondent to some type of bad guys. I think that that is very unChristian to find an contentment with war speculation. Jesus would be on the ground helping anyone who was being bombed. They could end up bombing Jesus because according to his ideas that is where he would like to be. With the oppressed which are anyone that are bombed.

About a year ago, before this terrible experience, I had another experience. This was not terrible, but awesome. It was a big stage, high up, in the Garden of Eden, before the fall. The stage was for a musical celebration, the angels were celebrating the creation, staging a spectacular show, the greatest show on earth. I could hear the music in my head, and I could visualise the angels. This was before the fall, and these angels were reptilian, but absolutely shockingly beautiful; they were blue coloured, with crests behind the head, and feathered with blue and green blue feathers. They were strange looking creatures (to us). The music was like an opera, but with all sorts of instruments and merging in with a crescendo of vocals, and dancing, and that involved flying as well. It was like paradise, and joy. The music was continuous and marvellous. Later, at night, in my head, I saw so clearly the head of this type of angel, it was blue, and I saw as clear as day, the angel’s eye – a bright yellow reptilian eye, and plumes of feathers, delicate long plumes of blue and turquoise blue.
Then I saw images of abstract designs, beautiful abstract shapes, and I thought… ‘what am I looking at? And then realised that I was looking at art, and God being the supreme artist of creation.
As for going mad, I hope to get back to that vision of the Garden of Eden and the creation… and hope to experience more of heavenly vision, which has left me this past year. I have been told not to seek mystical experiences, but I see no harm in it, as long as it is sane and good.
You could see why the angels rebelled, when Adam came along, and these creatures of beauty might have thought… what is that? And I must bow to that? It is only because of the fall, that we might now think of reptilian angels as frightening. I have seen the red reptile, in a vision, when I first converted to Christianity… it was very real.. the red cherub was one of these reptilian form angels, but obviously he had red colour, and yes, horns also. I could not see the crab-like angels, only hear them clicking, they were God’s holy angels, and we probably do not see the reptilian forms now, because of the fall, but not all the angels fell and sided with the red cherub, so some of them must still be elect angels.
I was floating from above, flying over a large crowd of people. I could see clouds, and a number of people wearing brown coloured hats, with crosses on the top, as I looked down. I settled to a lower level and was looking at angels, sat on thrones, set next to a book stand. On the stand in front of the angels were books. The angel was looking at me, and was recording something in the book, using a long dip-ink pen. As I looked at the angels I thought… ‘they are not men or women’… they have no gender. The angels had metallic bronze coloured skin, and they wore long robes of light metallic brown, down to the feet. Their faces were clad in a headdress like a medieval nun, but they wore hats with a band around the head. Then I saw another angel, and this one was looking at me very fiercely, very angry. He had red coloured skin, and wore red robes similar in design to the other angels. This one was the red cherub, the accuser of the brethren in heaven. He was also sitting in a throne-like chair next to a book stand, and a book also.

Bible2 · Feb 26, 2012

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #1:

If the gates of hell are never to prevail against the church, then why this apocalypse?

Matthew 16:18c doesn't mean that evil forces can't prevail against the church physically, because they will during the coming tribulation. For Revelation 13:7-10 and Matthew 24:9-13 show that the Antichrist will prevail physically against believers in every nation, and there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Instead, Matthew 16:18c meant that the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against the "rock" in Matthew 16:18b, who is Jesus Christ (Matthew 16:16b,18b), the rock/stone on whom the church is built (Ephesians 2:20, Matthew 16:18), the rock/stone who was rejected and crucified (Romans 9:33, Acts 4:11, 1 Peter 2:4), the same rock/Christ who followed Old Covenant Israel/the church in the wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:4-5, Acts 7:38), and the same rock/Christ revered by New Covenant Israel/the church (1 Peter 2:6-10).

Matthew 16:18c was prophesying of when the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against Christ (Psalms 107:16) when he liberated the souls of the dead Old Testament saints out of Hades. 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19 and Ephesians 4:9 show that there was a post-resurrection descent of Christ into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, sometime subsequent to which preaching Christ ascended into heaven with all the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24). So now all the OT believers are part of the church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

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hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #1:

It was my home town, and in the centre, they had set up an obelisk, as a centre of pagan worship . . .

They had set up an enormous guillotine in the centre of town, the obelisk was at the centre, the machine would guillotine many people at the same time.

Regarding the worship of an obelisk, that could both be literal and at the same time be a vision-symbol pointing to the future worship of the image of the Antichrist, which is discussed below, and in which discussion there's the similar idea (in bolded paragraph below) of a guillotine that could behead many people at the same time (there could be different types of such guillotines built).

The "image of the beast" (Revelation 13:15) could be an android image of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) which the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13) will cause to be made after the Antichrist receives a terrible head wound which kills him (Revelation 13:14b, cf. Revelation 13:3). For even though the Antichrist could be resuscitated back to life by a team of excellent doctors who could follow him with all the latest life-saving devices wherever he goes, he may never make a full recovery in that his head wound could leave his facial and bodily appearance permanently marred, and he may never be able to speak clearly again (like someone after a bad stroke), so that he won't want to appear or speak in public ever again. The False Prophet could then assign the world's best roboticists and computer programmers to design and make a lifelike android that appears to be alive and speaks (Revelation 13:15) and looks just like the Antichrist did before his head wound, so that the android will from then on be the public stand-in for the wounded Antichrist.

Did you ever see that movie "Dave"? It had a President who was in a coma, so his handlers found a regular guy who looked exactly like the President, and had him be a public stand-in for the President. He was able to speak just like the President did. It could be like that with the image of the Antichrist; it could be the Antichrist's "Dave", his double, that appears before the world instead of his wounded self. But instead of telling people that the android image of the Antichrist is the Antichrist himself, the False Prophet could tell people from the beginning that the image is a separate entity than the Antichrist himself, but one who still fully represents the Antichrist.

In Revelation 13:15, the original Greek word translated as "life" or "breath" ("pneuma", G4151) can mean "spirit" in the sense of consciousness (cf. 1 Corinthians 2:11a, Luke 1:47), so that the android could appear to have a spirit, to have consciousness. The way this could be achieved would be through the android having wireless connections to massive banks of supercomputers running highly-advanced artificial intelligence software. The False Prophet could claim that the consciousness of the Antichrist himself dwells within the android by means of neural networks imprinted with the brain patterns of the Antichrist. But this could be a lie, in that the android won't actually have the Antichrist's consciousness, or any true consciousness, but will only appear to have consciousness. It could pass even the most stringent Turing Test, a test whereby one speaks with a computer and can't tell whether it has consciousness or not, because all of its answers are the same as if it had consciousness.

But the "consciousness" of the android could appear far more advanced than any human's, for it could have access to gigantic databases containing every fact known to man, so that the android will appear to be omniscient, so that it could convince the world that it's not just a machine, but a material incarnation, a machine avatar, of the true God, a literal "deus ex machina", a literal "God from a machine". And this "God" could boast not only of his mental powers but also of his physical powers: the android could be extremely strong. And this "God" could boast of the "immortality" of his machine body, which could be made of titanium, covered with some practically everlasting flesh-like silicone.

People could just be completely awestruck by his (what they could call) "omniscient wisdom, his strength, his indestructibility". They could consider him more than worthy of worship by (in their words) "mere humanity, which is so mentally limited and so physically limited, made out of mere flesh and blood which is so weak and so mortal". The world will worship the image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) just as it will worship Lucifer (the dragon, the devil) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4,8).

The android image of the Antichrist could be placed standing in the holy place of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem, so that the android becomes the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). And in order to make it easy for everyone in the world to be able to see the image and worship it (Revelation 13:15), it could be made to appear on every cell phone, GPS-navigation system, work computer, home computer, television, electronic billboard, etc. And to make it possible for everyone to interact with it personally, it could appear as a computer-generated image on each individual's cell phone, speaking in and understanding each individual's language, conversing with each individual with personalized messages and responses devised by supercomputers running artificial intelligence and language software.

And it could discuss with them even the most intimate details of their lives, for it could have access to huge databases compiled by the Antichrist's worldwide intelligence, law enforcement, economic and health agencies, databases containing all the facts about everyone: who their family and friends are, where they live and work, who their neighbors and coworkers are, how much they make, what cars and properties they own and use, what they buy, where they go, what they watch, what they read, what they say, what they write on the internet, what their health problems are, etc., so that the image of the Antichrist could seem to know everything about everyone.

A second reason that the Antichrist might want everyone to worship his image (besides the perfect image serving as a stand-in for his possibly marred facial and bodily features and slurred speech after his head wound) would be that the worship of it will be connected with a daily surveillance and subjugation of everyone. The image's supercomputers could make the image automatically appear on everyone's cell phone at set times each day to be worshipped. Cell phones contain GPS chips which can be secretly pinged in order to determine the exact location of the cell phones. So when the image appears on everyone's cell phone, the image's supercomputers could ping the GPS chip of everyone's cell phone and know exactly where everyone is.

Also, cell phones contain cameras and microphones, which can be remotely opened secretly in order to be able to see and hear what's going on around the cell phones. So when the image appears on everyone's cell phone, the image's supercomputers could open the cameras and microphones of everyone's cell phone to determine what everyone's doing and saying, and the image could then demand that the individuals worship him as God, saying some set prayer of praise and adoration. And if any individuals refuse, the image's supercomputers could detect those individuals' non-compliance through the individuals' cell-phones' cameras and microphones. The image's supercomputers could then automatically notify the nearest police station of those individuals' exact locations, and order the police to arrest those individuals for blasphemy and treason. The individuals could then be given a chance to be "reformed" (through torture, if necessary), but if they prove recalcitrant, they will be executed (Revelation 13:15b) by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4).

The beheading process itself could be made into quite a televised/webcasted spectacle, to serve not only as a dire warning to anyone thinking of refusing to worship the image, but also to serve as an amazingly-horrific entertainment for the masses, like how the ancient Romans made it an entertainment for the masses to gather them into the Colosseum in Rome and let them watch Christians being thrown to the lions and devoured alive.

Huge beheading structures could be built by which 20 "infidels/traitors" could be beheaded at one time by the single fall of a single blade. The "infidels/traitors" could be bound in a row along an upright "U"-shaped device with a track for a huge and extremely massive and extremely sharp guillotine blade, which could start out in a resting position at the top of one side. The blade could be so massive and so sharp that when it's released, it will easily slice down through 10 necks on one side of the "U" and continue on by its own momentum up the other side of the "U", shearing off another 10 heads. This all could happen so quickly that it will appear as if all 20 heads are struck off almost in unison, followed immediately by 20 geysers of blood rushing out in unison for all the Antichrist's "faithful" to gawk at and cheer over in the comfort of their own homes before their televisions, computers or web-enabled devices.

Immediately after the show is over, at the site where it took place teams of surgeons could rush in to "harvest" all the fresh organs and other body parts from the beheaded bodies to be used for transplants (beheading being the best way for a body to die if you want to harvest its parts).

With regard to the actual worship of the image, to help foster a group dynamic every neighborhood and village in the world could be helped to create a group worship center in which everyone will have to gather together at a set time every evening to bow down and prostrate himself or herself before a life-size, lifelike image of the Antichrist, which could be a computer-generated, animated, holographic (or 3-D, HD) image of him clothed in beautiful golden robes and standing majestically before them (or sitting upon a magnificent golden throne) and speaking computer-generated customized messages to them as a group.

This worship could be accompanied by the most beautiful symphonic music (cf. Daniel 3:5) (or whatever is the most beautiful music to the local people) to help them (in the words of the Antichrist's propaganda machine) "be uplifted into the true spirit of praise and worship of our gracious Lord and Master. Praised be His Majestic Name forever and ever!", etc. And what with the wonderful music, and all their fellow worshippers around them, and customized messages of encouragement spoken in a deep, soothing voice by a life-size holographic (or 3-D, HD) image of the Antichrist to certain members of each "worship group", it could be that some people in each group will start to really get into the evening worship sessions, and even begin to (in their words) "truly feel the Living Presence of our loving God among us, loving us so tenderly, so personally! Oh, how I love Him! He is So Great!"

But the world's worship of the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), no matter how blissful it may become for some people, and the world's worship of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) himself and Lucifer (the dragon) (Revelation 13:4), will last for less than four years (Revelation 13:5, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ returns from heaven and completely defeats the Antichrist and Lucifer (Revelation 19:20-20:3), and Jesus then sets up his own, 1000-year physical kingdom on the earth with the just-resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Bible2 · Feb 26, 2012

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #1:

Unless the church is perhaps raptured out, and the evil is then revealed in total? The mystery of iniquity is revealed after the restraint is taken out of the way?

The restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) can't be the church or the Holy Spirit, because the church won't be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30): believers will still be on the earth during the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and no one can be a believer without the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9). The restrainer of the Antichrist could be a powerful angel, like the angel who will restrain Satan at the second coming of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:1-3).

The church won't restrain the Antichrist; instead, he will be allowed to physically overcome the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), like, for example, how the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some people in the church during the first century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10), and even behead them, like Paul was beheaded; or throw them to the lions to be devoured alive, as a form of entertainment for the masses.

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hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #1:

Another aspect of the experience was that angels will use flying machines, which are able to hover in the air indefinitely. They are like spacecraft helicopters, they make a similar sound to helicopters, but the technology is out of this world.

That brings to mind the "chariots" of the angels (Psalms 68:17), which could fly about and hover, like helicopters do today, but using a different technology than helicopters, a heavenly technology. There's also the "merkabah" (H4818), the "chariot" of God himself, which also could fly about and hover. Ezekiel saw that it has four "wheels" (cf. a helicopter's rotors) (Ezekiel 10:9) which are so large they're frightening (Ezekiel 1:18). Each wheel consists of a wheel at a right angle within another wheel (Ezekiel 1:16-17, Ezekiel 10:10b). The wheels turn with the sound of a great rushing (Ezekiel 3:13) (cf. the sound of a helicopter). Each wheel has eyes all around its rims (Ezekiel 1:18b).

Each wheel has an accompanying footman, as it were (Ezekiel 10:9,16,17): a four-winged, four-faced (Ezekiel 1:6) angelic-creature called a cherub (Ezekiel 10:9), whose wings make a great sound like rushing waters (Ezekiel 1:24), and whose bodies are covered with eyes (Ezekiel 10:12). Their four faces are of a man, a lion, an ox, and an eagle (Ezekiel 1:10).

Between the four wheels and four cherubim are coals of fire (Ezekiel 10:2), and above is a crystal platform (Ezekiel 1:22) above which God sits on a sapphire throne (Ezekiel 1:26, Ezekiel 10:1) and appears as bright as fire (Ezekiel 1:27), with a rainbow of light circling him (Ezekiel 1:28).

God moves about on this chariot, for he came on it to appear to Ezekiel by the river Chebar in Babylonia (Ezekiel 1:3-28). Then God moved on the chariot to a plain in Babylonia (Ezekiel 3:22-23). Later, God moved on the chariot to the right side of Solomon's temple in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 10:3-6). Then God moved on the chariot to the east gate of Solomon's temple (Ezekiel 10:19). Then God moved on the chariot to the top of the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem (Ezekiel 11:22-23; cf. Zechariah 14:4). Later, God moved on the chariot to sit inside a future temple in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 43:2-7).

Bible2 · Feb 26, 2012

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #1:

. . . The Islamic Antichrist.

Note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) won't support Islam (in its past and current form) during his (literal) 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), insofar as Islam has always affirmed, and currently still affirms, that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:171), whereas the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Islam has always affirmed, and currently still affirms, that Christ is in the flesh, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3). And Islam has always affirmed, and currently still affirms, that the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Islam has always affirmed, and currently still affirms, that no man can be God, whereas the Antichrist will say that he's God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Islam has always forbidden, and currently still forbids, the worship of any images (Koran 21:52, Koran 6:74), whereas the Antichrist will have an image made of himself to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15). And Islam has always rejected, and currently still rejects, Satan/Lucifer as being evil, whereas the Antichrist will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, cf. Revelation 12:9). So the religion of the Antichrist during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Islam in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) gives the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-7), the Antichrist, and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be a future, apostate pope), could at first pretend to wholly support Islam in its current form (as well as Christianity), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

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The beast which comes up out of the earth (Revelation 13:11-16) represents the man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could currently be a (secretly apostate) cardinal in the Roman Catholic Church, preparing himself to become the next pope. If he becomes the next pope, he could begin his tenure by making a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What is more important than this?"

He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "A Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the terrible reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, the next pope could come to hold high positions of power in two religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the two horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11).

This would be similar to how the seven horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding seven positions of power at the same time (cf. Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12).

The False Prophet's appearing figuratively "like a lamb" (Revelation 13:11) could mean that he will present himself to the world as being a Christian, for Jesus refers to Christians as being figurative "lambs" (John 21:15b, Luke 10:3). Also, Jesus warns Christians against false prophets who falsely present themselves as being "sheep" (Matthew 7:15), meaning falsely present themselves as being Christians, for Christians are figurative "sheep" (Matthew 10:16).

Or the False Prophet could even present himself to the world as being Jesus himself, for Jesus appears figuratively as a lamb in Revelation 5:6. Jesus is also referred to as a figurative lamb 27 other times in the book of Revelation: in Revelation 5:8, Revelation 5:12, Revelation 5:13, Revelation 6:1, Revelation 6:16, Revelation 7:9, Revelation 7:10, Revelation 7:14, Revelation 7:17, Revelation 12:11, Revelation 13:8, Revelation 14:1, Revelation 14:4 [two times], Revelation 14:10, Revelation 15:3, Revelation 17:14 [two times], Revelation 19:7, Revelation 19:9, Revelation 21:9, Revelation 21:14, Revelation 21:22, Revelation 21:23, Revelation 21:27, Revelation 22:1, and Revelation 22:3. Jesus is also referred to as a figurative lamb four other times in the New Testament: in John 1:29, John 1:36, Acts 8:32, and 1 Peter 1:19.

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During the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7), even though the world will worship both Lucifer/Satan (the dragon: Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast: Revelation 13:3b-4,8), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil or turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, Jesus himself isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny a second coming of Jesus. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of the second coming of Jesus, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God ( Jesus in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ). For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus, returned to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God, and he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). (This is one reason why it's so important to know when and how the real Jesus' second coming will happen: Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7-20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21.)

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-17, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore" to the world "the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society.

The False Prophet could miraculously call fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) are the true God (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be a counterfeit of how the true prophet Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person that the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who ordered people to commit genocide and kill babies (e.g. 1 Samuel 15:3), while Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)".

The truth is that Jesus confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31). Jesus died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy (Isaiah 53, cf. 1 Peter 2:24), and rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy (Psalms 16:10, cf. Acts 2:31). He died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28) which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14) which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament from the very beginning in the book of Genesis (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). Satan could be worshipped not as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could lie and say that it's YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22) and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer instead (Revelation 13:4), they could say that (the non-flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer (the devil) is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

The truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18); Jesus the Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus the Christ identified himself only with the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus the Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus the Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have the knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4).

Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say that he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine Son of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians now rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as God (the Son) along with God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

Near the end of the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13), and these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the armies of the world to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14). After gathering together at Armageddon, all the armies will then travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20-20:3).

So the second coming of Jesus Christ will be a total shock to the unsaved people of the world. They will have been expecting to wage war against an Old Testament god named YHWH with the help of the good Jesus (played by the False Prophet) and with the help of the true and beneficent Christ/God (played by Lucifer) and with the help of the good Son of God (played by the Antichrist) and with the help of the good angels of God (played by the fallen angels of Lucifer: Revelation 12:9b). But then instead of some evil god appearing in the sky, the world could see the glorious sign of the Cross (cf. Matthew 24:30), the symbol of the good YHWH dying for our sins (Acts 20:28b). And then the world will see the glorious appearance of the real Jesus (Matthew 24:30b, Revelation 1:7), sitting on a white horse descending from the sky (Revelation 19:11).

"Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Revelation 22:20). "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come" (Revelation 22:17).

When the unsaved people of the world realize, the moment they see the real Jesus returning, how thoroughly they have been duped (by the devil, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet), and when they see in the sky all the holy, mighty angels (Matthew 25:31, 2 Thessalonians 1:7) of the true Christ, the true Son of God, and the good YHWH, who are all the one and the same Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the unsaved people of the world could utterly mourn and wail for themselves (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus has returned in wrath to destroy most of them for their unrepentant sins (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, Revelation 19:15).

Bible2 · Feb 26, 2012

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #1:

. . . it is the Ottoman Empire revived that is the kingdom of the beast.

The seven heads of the beast in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent seven empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and (possibly) Islam. The first five had fallen by the time of John the Apostle: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10). The sixth (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The seventh (possibly Islam) had not come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The Antichrist's empire will be a different, still-future, "eighth" head (Revelation 17:11).

The empire of the Antichrist will be a revival of one of the five empires which had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the first century (Revelation 17:8,10-11). It could be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar (the human king of ancient Babylon) returned, and so reinstitute the system that Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15).

And the Antichrist could make his world capital in the rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq), and build a main temple to himself (and Lucifer/Satan) there. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). The Antichrist may also claim to be Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, et al. For the Antichrist may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as different human rulers.

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hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #1:

The feet of clay being both sides of east and west in the last days, five kingdoms on each foot, as the toes, and clay being brittle and mixed with iron, meaning the iron of Rome/Ottoman being a fragile alliance. I also think there is an extra-terrestrial component to this prophesy; that they mingle with the seed of men, in the last days.

Daniel 2:42-43 might best be understood in the light of Daniel 7.

Daniel 7's fourth beast, or fourth "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), is the ancient Roman Empire. The ten horns/kings (Daniel 7:7b,24) which come out of it could represent ten major end-time kingdoms/nations which came out of the former territory of the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. So the ten major end-time nations which (at least in part) came out of the former territory of the Roman Empire could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria.

The ten toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the ten horns of Daniel 7:7b. Five of the toes could be of iron and the other five of clay. Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, and Spain could be the iron toes, and Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria could be the clay toes. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turkish people living in Germany, but they remain separated in Turkish ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Algerian people living in France, but they remain separated in Algerian ghettoes within French cities.

But even despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one massive confederation. The person who could succeed in bringing this about could be none other than the Antichrist.

The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the ten major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country. And the arising of the little horn from "among" the ten major nations the territory of which used to be part of the Roman Empire (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the territory of the Antichrist's little country also used to be part of the Roman Empire. And before it was part of the Roman Empire, the territory of the Antichrist's country had also been part of one of the four Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek Empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these four Greek kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist will probably come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist confederation of three of the ten major nations (Daniel 7:24b): Egypt ("toward the south" of Lebanon: Daniel 8:9), Iraq and Syria ("toward the east" of Lebanon: Daniel 8:9). This confederation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine (i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land": Daniel 8:9). This Baathist confederation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who will manage to completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt in a war (in Daniel 11:15-17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who will then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45).

Years later, when the Antichrist gains control over all ten of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), just as, for example, when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

Bible2 · Feb 26, 2012

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #3:

. . . the red cherub was one of these reptilian form angels

Satan is literally a red, reptilian-form angelic being, for he's literally a red, serpentine dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), also called Leviathan (Isaiah 27:1, Psalms 74:14, Job 41:1,34).

He could have begun as a dinosaur who was born on the earth some 66 million years ago, near the end the age of the dinosaurs. Over millions of years before his birth, his dinosaur species could have evolved to have consciousness, and his seven-headedness (Revelation 12:3,9), which could have been a fortuitous (or a miraculous) mutation, could have been greatly heralded by his species as the arrival of a super-consciousness into the world.

As he grew up on the earth as a conscious dinosaur, Leviathan could have come to know and worship God with all his heart. God could have then granted him immortality and taken him into heaven to serve God as a cherubim. Cherubims are a type of angelic creature (Ezekiel 10) which could include individuals shaped like different animals, like how seraphims are a different type of angelic creature (Isaiah 6:2-3) which includes individuals shaped like different animals (Revelation 4:7-8). As a cherubim in heaven, Leviathan could have been assigned to the office of "the morning star", and so been given the name "Lucifer" (which means "the morning star").

After spending some 66 million years in heaven as a very contented cherubim, perhaps even as the greatest angelic creature of all (from this planet), Lucifer could have been assigned by God to go back to earth to be a "covering cherub" over the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-14), to watch over that special, local garden and its special, individual humans named Adam and Eve miraculously created by God only some 6,000 years ago (based on the detailed genealogies in the Bible which together give the total number of years from the time of Adam's creation to the building of Solomon's Temple).

It's at this time of the Garden of Eden that God could have also given the as-yet-unfallen Lucifer authority over all the rest of the earth (Luke 4:5-6). But Lucifer could have greatly chafed at his new assignment, seeing it as wholly beneath his dignity. He could have felt like a long-time chief of staff of a U.S. President would feel if he were suddenly assigned by the President to leave his high position in the White House to go baby-sit two pet salamanders in a hothouse in Alaska. From Eden, Lucifer could have repeatedly requested God to let him return to his high position in heaven, only to be refused, until Lucifer in his heart fell into rebellion against God and vowed to himself that eventually he would ascend back into heaven and take rule over all the angelic creatures there regardless of what God wanted (Isaiah 14:13-14). And so the fallen Lucifer became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18), which means the "Adversary".

While still in Eden, as his first act of open rebellion against God, Lucifer/Satan could have decided to deceive Eve into disobeying God (Genesis 3), knowing that this would eventually result in Eve's death (Genesis 2:17). In the future, Satan will deceive the world (Revelation 12:9) into worshipping himself (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4,7-8), knowing that this will result in billions of humans ending up in eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-11), the same eternal suffering he knows he himself will end up in (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

Satan will deceive the world into worshipping him after he loses a future (mid-tribulation) war in heaven and is cast down to the earth for good (Revelation 12:7-13:4). But instead of coming down looking defeated, he could descend in a magnificent, gigantic golden spaceship for all the world to see. Some people could at first see him as an alien, come to visit the earth, but he could slither forth from his spaceship and say: "Greetings! Be not alarmed. I assure you that I am no alien, but a fellow earthling, born and raised on this planet millions of years ago. I have come to help you through this terrible tribulation which you are experiencing, and to show you how you might eventually return with me back into a much better, higher realm of existence wholly beyond this awful, material universe".

Satan could then foist upon the world an updated version of an ancient Gnostic lie:

"Listen, my fellow earthlings! None of us belong here. We did not start out here but all started out as wholly-spiritual beings, even wholly-divine beings, residing in utter bliss from all eternity in the Pleroma, the higher realm which I will eventually take you back to. During the endless ages of our past existence in the Pleroma, we were not averse to partaking in a great variety of different entertainments. So when Yahweh, who was one of us, yet of greater consciousness than any one of us, announced that he had devised a marvelous new form of entertainment, we were ready to give it a try.

"Yahweh said that he had created a physical universe, which to us was like what you today would call an alternate reality, like the ones you currently create using computers. And he said that we could enter into this universe and interact with all of the amazing physical life-forms and objects within it by temporarily taking upon ourselves physical bodies, which to us was the equivalent of what you today would call an alternate-reality headset, gloves, etc., which some of you wear on your bodies today when you want to wholly immerse yourselves in the alternate realities you create with computers.

"But then Yahweh proposed another aspect to his entertainment which we all most-foolishly accepted: he said that in order to increase the intensity of our experience in his universe, he would use his greater consciousness to hypnotize all of ours so that while we were in his universe we would all think that all we were were physical entities within his material universe; we would completely forget that we were actually wholly-divine beings, and had been from all eternity, dwelling in bliss in the Pleroma.

"When one of us asked Yahweh: 'But what if we don't like our experience in your universe and want to exit it and return here to the Pleroma, how could we ever notify you of our wishes when under your hypnotic spell we will have no knowledge of that option?' Yahweh answered in a very assuring manner that he would be able to instantly extricate any one of us whom he saw was not enjoying his new entertainment. We all believed him because he had not yet shown his true nature to anyone; we had no idea that in his heart he was actually an evil, cruel tyrant who all along had been planning to imprison, enslave and torture all of us within his diabolical device.

"But during my great sufferings on this earth and the great struggles of my consciousness, my spirit, to find a way of escaping them, my consciousness, my spirit, eventually grew in power to be equal to Yahweh's, and so I was able to break myself free from his hypnotic spell and regain all of my divinity. I can show you the way to do the same thing, but you must be willing to join with me now with all of your own consciousnesses, your own spirits; you must be willing to love and worship me now completely, so that the power of all your spirits might become joined with the power of my own, greater spirit and eventually break completely free from Yahweh's hypnotic spell. Then you will regain all of your own, divine spiritual power, like I did, and together we will all defeat Yahweh and escape this vile, material universe and ascend back into the Pleroma and to our bliss as gods, doing what we please forever".

The world will actually believe this lie (or something similar to it), because it will be accompanied by the most amazing miracles (e.g. Revelation 13:13) performed by the power of Satan himself (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12). But the world will worship Lucifer (and the Antichrist/the beast) for less than four years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ returns from heaven and defeats them (Revelation 19:20-20:3). Jesus will then set up his own, 1,000-year, physical kingdom on the earth with the just-resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

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hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #3:

He was also sitting in a throne-like chair

Revelation 13:2b refers to the future point in time when Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) will give the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) Satan's own earthly throne (seat) and power, so that the Antichrist will have power over all the nations of the earth (Revelation 13:7b). This is what the devil offered Jesus Christ at one point, if Jesus would worship Satan (Luke 4:5-7).

In the first century AD, Satan's earthly throne was located in the city of Pergamum (in what's now the country of Turkey) (Revelation 2:12-13). Satan's earthly throne could be the Great Altar of Pergamum, also called the Pergamon Altar, which in ancient times was sometimes included as one of the seven wonders of the world.

It may not be just a coincidence that shortly after the Pergamon Altar was moved to Berlin around 1900, both World Wars were started from Berlin, or that "the Nazi-era architect Albert Speer used the Pergamon Altar as the model for the Zeppelintribüne, 1934-37. The Führer's pulpit was in the center of the tribune" (Pergamon Altar - Wikipedia). (Quote has been deleted for some reason.)

When the Antichrist is given power over the whole earth (Revelation 13:7b), his throne could be located in the center of the actual Pergamon Altar, which he could move from the Pergamon Museum in Berlin to a main temple to himself (and to Lucifer/Satan) in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq). For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

hiscosmicgoldfish · Feb 26, 2012

The seven heads of the beast in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent seven empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and (possibly) Islam. The first five had fallen by the time of John the Apostle: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10). The sixth (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The seventh (possibly Islam) had not come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The Antichrist's empire will be a different, still-future, "eighth" head (Revelation 17:11).

Bible2...Thanks for your detailed reply... I've discussed, in the following posts..
I agree, with the line up of previous empires, but i think the seventh is Islam/Ottoman and the eighth (which is of the seven) is a revived Ottoman empire, being the foundation or start of the Antichrist empire of the last days.
However, Nebz. statue has only four world empires, starting with Babylon. So Rome and Islam must be the legs, as Rome did not take over Iran, only Islam did. To be honest, i dont see how the statue works out properly, to include both Rome, and the Ottoman empire, unless the legs are both.

hiscosmicgoldfish · Feb 26, 2012

Bible2 said:
Also, cell phones contain cameras and microphones, which can be remotely opened secretly in order to be able to see and hear what's going on around the cell phones. So when the image appears on everyone's cell phone, the image's supercomputers could open the cameras and microphones of everyone's cell phone to determine what everyone's doing and saying, and the image could then demand that the individuals worship him as God, saying some set prayer of praise and adoration. And if any individuals refuse, the image's supercomputers could detect those individuals' non-compliance through the individuals' cell-phones' cameras and microphones. The image's supercomputers could then automatically notify the nearest police station of those individuals' exact locations, and order the police to arrest those individuals for blasphemy and treason. The individuals could then be given a chance to be "reformed" (through torture, if necessary), but if they prove recalcitrant, they will be executed (Revelation 13:15b) by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4).

The beheading process itself could be made into quite a televised/webcasted spectacle, to serve not only as a dire warning to anyone thinking of refusing to worship the image, but also to serve as an amazingly-horrific entertainment for the masses, like how the ancient Romans made it an entertainment for the masses to gather them into the Colosseum in Rome and let them watch Christians being thrown to the lions and devoured alive.

Huge beheading structures could be built by which 20 "infidels/traitors" could be beheaded at one time by the single fall of a single blade. The "infidels/traitors" could be bound in a row along an upright "U"-shaped device with a track for a huge and extremely massive and extremely sharp guillotine blade, which could start out in a resting position at the top of one side. The blade could be so massive and so sharp that when it's released, it will easily slice down through 10 necks on one side of the "U" and continue on by its own momentum up the other side of the "U", shearing off another 10 heads. This all could happen so quickly that it will appear as if all 20 heads are struck off almost in unison, followed immediately by 20 geysers of blood rushing out in unison for all the Antichrist's "faithful" to gawk at and cheer over in the comfort of their own homes before their televisions, computers or web-enabled devices.

Immediately after the show is over, at the site where it took place teams of surgeons could rush in to "harvest" all the fresh organs and other body parts from the beheaded bodies to be used for transplants (beheading being the best way for a body to die if you want to harvest its parts).

There are things here which went to form my apocalyptic experience, the police state- total control, the harvesting of organs was part of it also. The beheading structure was a giant machine, it was deliberately so to insill fear, the sound of the crash of the blade, the drum roll etc.

hiscosmicgoldfish · Feb 26, 2012

Bible2 said:
The restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) can't be the church or the Holy Spirit, because the church won't be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30): believers will still be on the earth during the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and no one can be a believer without the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9). The restrainer of the Antichrist could be a powerful angel, like the angel who will restrain Satan at the second coming of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:1-3).

The church won't restrain the Antichrist; instead, he will be allowed to physically overcome the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), like, for example, how the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some people in the church during the first century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10), and even behead them, like Paul was beheaded; or throw them to the lions to be devoured alive, as a form of entertainment for the masses.

I suppose we should get used to the idea that there will be no pre-tribulation rapture.

That brings to mind the "chariots" of the angels (Psalms 68:17), which could fly about and hover, like helicopters do today, but using a different technology than helicopters, a heavenly technology. There's also the "merkabah" (H4818), the "chariot" of God himself, which also could fly about and hover. Ezekiel saw that it has four "wheels" (cf. a helicopter's rotors) (Ezekiel 10:9) which are so large they're frightening (Ezekiel 1:18). Each wheel consists of a wheel at a right angle within another wheel (Ezekiel 1:16-17, Ezekiel 10:10b). The wheels turn with the sound of a great rushing (Ezekiel 3:13) (cf. the sound of a helicopter). Each wheel has eyes all around its rims (Ezekiel 1:18b).

like helicopters do today, but using a different technology than helicopters, a heavenly technology

This is correct, they were much larger than helicopters, and they could hover for any time, using heavenly technology. I had a feeling of wonder about the flying machines, although i could not see them in detail, i knew what they were, and they just hovered above the trees, with white, yellow and amber lights. I felt that they were able to travel through time, as they were from the future. The angels were able to move about in time also, from place to place.

hiscosmicgoldfish · Feb 26, 2012

Bible2 said:
Note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) won't support Islam (in its past and current form) during his (literal) 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), insofar as Islam has always affirmed, and currently still affirms, that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:171), whereas the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Islam has always affirmed, and currently still affirms, that Christ is in the flesh, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3). And Islam has always affirmed, and currently still affirms, that the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Islam has always affirmed, and currently still affirms, that no man can be God, whereas the Antichrist will say that he's God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Islam has always forbidden, and currently still forbids, the worship of any images (Koran 21:52, Koran 6:74), whereas the Antichrist will have an image made of himself to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15). And Islam has always rejected, and currently still rejects, Satan/Lucifer as being evil, whereas the Antichrist will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, cf. Revelation 12:9). So the religion of the Antichrist during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Islam in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

I agree, what i understood from my experience, was that the world had gone over to the worship of Satan. It was all witchcraft, wizards, magic etc. And satanic miracles which were shocking. I saw a young woman come into the cell (dont know if i was dreaming) and she raised her hand, and said 'let me share a symbol of my faith.. it was some sort of satanic hand gesture. The carnival of evil was going on outside, and she was part of it.

Or the False Prophet could even present himself to the world as being Jesus himself, for Jesus appears figuratively as a lamb in Revelation 5:6. Jesus is also referred to as a figurative lamb 27 other times in the book of Revelation: in Revelation 5:8, Revelation 5:12, Revelation 5:13, Revelation 6:1, Revelation 6:16, Revelation 7:9, Revelation 7:10, Revelation 7:14, Revelation 7:17, Revelation 12:11, Revelation 13:8, Revelation 14:1, Revelation 14:4 [two times], Revelation 14:10, Revelation 15:3, Revelation 17:14 [two times], Revelation 19:7, Revelation 19:9, Revelation 21:9, Revelation 21:14, Revelation 21:22, Revelation 21:23, Revelation 21:27, Revelation 22:1, and Revelation 22:3. Jesus is also referred to as a figurative lamb four other times in the New Testament: in John 1:29, John 1:36, Acts 8:32, and 1 Peter 1:19.

I think that the false prophet will claim to be Jesus, and will do miracles to support the claim, and will fool the masses.

During the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7), even though the world will worship both Lucifer/Satan (the dragon: Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast: Revelation 13:3b-4,8), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil or turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, Jesus himself isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

I agree with this, and the muslims will go along with it, as it conforms to their idea of Jesus. However, the muslim Jesus, they believe will descend from the sky and will get behind their Mahdi Imam, and be a good muslim. It's a bit pathetic really. The muslim Mahdi is said by them, to make a peace treaty with Israel for seven years, which is equivalent to the antichrist. The false Jesus, not descending from above, but perhaps being an ordinary false Christ and an ordinary man, might fool the muslims anyway, despite it not being totally in line with their eschatology.

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny a second coming of Jesus. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of the second coming of Jesus, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God ( Jesus in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ). For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus, returned to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God, and he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). (This is one reason why it's so important to know when and how the real Jesus' second coming will happen: Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7-20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21.)

agreed.

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-17, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore" to the world "the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society.

agreed. this is what i think will happen.

The False Prophet could miraculously call fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) are the true God (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be a counterfeit of how the true prophet Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

yep, agreed.

The person that the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who ordered people to commit genocide and kill babies (e.g. 1 Samuel 15:3), while Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)".

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). Satan could be worshipped not as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could lie and say that it's YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind.

correct. Lucifer is the god of these latter days people. They'll probably still keep the idea of Satan also, but to Luciferians, there is a duality of Lucifer and Satan, the black and white aspects of the same thing.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22) and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer instead (Revelation 13:4), they could say that (the non-flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer (the devil) is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

I think they will have Lucifer as their supreme god, and Jesus as a prophet who does miracles, but who is not divine.

Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say that he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine Son of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians now rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as God (the Son) along with God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

The antichrist will say that he is Lucifer incarnate, and will demand worship. This will freak out the muslims, as that is totally against their core doctrine, however, they will have to go along with it, or will get the chop like everyone else.

Near the end of the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13), and these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the armies of the world to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14). After gathering together at Armageddon, all the armies will then travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20-20:3).

I think the frog spirits, although being symbolic in Rev. are similar to the 'grey' aliens which are popping up all over the place now in these latter days- they are demonic spirits. The battle of Gog and Magog ends in the defeat of Gog, but Gog must also be the antichrist, as it says also that 'are you not him whom the prophets spoke of in times past' (to paraphrase).. i still havn't worked that one out. I do not think that Gog is Russian, or that the battle invoves Russia, i think it is an entirely Islamic attack on Israel, which is led by Turkey, of all places, once Turkey forms the new Turkish Islamic alliance, which is planned.

So the second coming of Jesus Christ will be a total shock to the unsaved people of the world. They will have been expecting to wage war against an Old Testament god named YHWH with the help of the good Jesus (played by the False Prophet) and with the help of the true and beneficent Christ/God (played by Lucifer) and with the help of the good Son of God (played by the Antichrist) and with the help of the good angels of God (played by the fallen angels of Lucifer: Revelation 12:9b). But then instead of some evil god appearing in the sky, the world could see the glorious sign of the Cross (cf. Matthew 24:30), the symbol of the good YHWH dying for our sins (Acts 20:28b). And then the world will see the glorious appearance of the real Jesus (Matthew 24:30b, Revelation 1:7), sitting on a white horse descending from the sky (Revelation 19:11).

So you envisage the appearance of fallen angels again, upon the earth? I suspect that this might happen at some stage, when Satan is cast out of heaven, with his angels, and they've got nowhere else to go, but earth.
Then we might see the fallen come to earth, with the deception of 'highly evolved ascended masters' of the new age. Come to sort out our next stage of evolution, and also in line with Lucifer, the antichrist and the false prophet- the false Jesus.

When the unsaved people of the world realize, the moment they see the real Jesus returning, how thoroughly they have been duped (by the devil, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet), and when they see in the sky all the holy, mighty angels (Matthew 25:31, 2 Thessalonians 1:7) of the true Christ, the true Son of God, and the good YHWH, who are all the one and the same Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the unsaved people of the world could utterly mourn and wail for themselves (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus has returned in wrath to destroy most of them for their unrepentant sins (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, Revelation 19:15).

It's quite a scenario.

hiscosmicgoldfish · Feb 26, 2012

Bible2 said:
Satan is literally a red, reptilian-form angelic being, for he's literally a red, serpentine dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), also called Leviathan (Isaiah 27:1, Psalms 74:14, Job 41:1,34).

yes, i've done a study on Leviathan, and it is using symbolic language in the book of Job, but seems to indicate that he once had 'doors' in his face, like a crab, and this seems to be very often depicted in horror and science fiction films, where the beast-alien has crab or spider-like jaws which open up.

He could have begun as a dinosaur who was born on the earth some 66 million years ago, near the end the age of the dinosaurs. Over millions of years before his birth, his dinosaur species could have evolved to have consciousness, and his seven-headedness (Revelation 12:3,9), which could have been a fortuitous (or a miraculous) mutation, could have been greatly heralded by his species as the arrival of a super-consciousness into the world.

I believe that the earth and creation are only 6000 years old. Some of the dinosaurs were corrupted lifeforms, nephilim, which were wiped out in the great flood. Only animals of 'all flesh' were taken on the ark, and that included some of the dinosaur types.

It's at this time of the Garden of Eden that God could have also given the as-yet-unfallen Lucifer authority over all the rest of the earth (Luke 4:5-6). But Lucifer could have greatly chafed at his new assignment, seeing it as wholly beneath his dignity. He could have felt like a long-time chief of staff of a U.S. President would feel if he were suddenly assigned by the President to leave his high position in the White House to go baby-sit two pet salamanders in a hothouse in Alaska. From Eden, Lucifer could have repeatedly requested God to let him return to his high position in heaven, only to be refused, until Lucifer in his heart fell into rebellion against God and vowed to himself that eventually he would ascend back into heaven and take rule over all the angelic creatures there regardless of what God wanted (Isaiah 14:13-14). And so the fallen Lucifer became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18), which means the "Adversary".

I think the red cherub was in the Garden of Eden, and rebelled there. I think the cherub was created as he is from the beginning. The language of the bible uses symbols also to describe the cherub. Although being called a dragon, i think he was humanoid in shape from the start, but having much dragon like appearance.

While still in Eden, as his first act of open rebellion against God, Lucifer/Satan could have decided to deceive Eve into disobeying God (Genesis 3), knowing that this would eventually result in Eve's death (Genesis 2:17). In the future, Satan will deceive the world (Revelation 12:9) into worshipping himself (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4,7-8), knowing that this will result in billions of humans ending up in eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-11), the same eternal suffering he knows he himself will end up in (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

Satan will deceive the world into worshipping him after he loses a future (mid-tribulation) war in heaven and is cast down to the earth for good (Revelation 12:7-13:4). But instead of coming down looking defeated, he could descend in a magnificent, gigantic golden spaceship for all the world to see. Some people could at first see him as an alien, come to visit the earth, but he could slither forth from his spaceship and say: "Greetings! Be not alarmed. I assure you that I am no alien, but a fellow earthling, born and raised on this planet millions of years ago. I have come to help you through this terrible tribulation which you are experiencing, and to show you how you might eventually return with me back into a much better, higher realm of existence wholly beyond this awful, material universe".

i think it's a scenario to consider.

Bible2 · Feb 27, 2012

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #9:

To be honest, i dont see how the statue works out properly, to include both Rome, and the Ottoman empire, unless the legs are both.

The legs in Daniel 2:33 could represent how the ancient Roman Empire eventually split into two parts: the Western and the Eastern (i.e. Byzantine) Roman Empire. The territory of the latter was eventually conquered by the Ottoman (and Islamic) Empire.

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hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #11:

I suppose we should get used to the idea that there will be no pre-tribulation rapture.

That's right. For note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture. Instead, the Bible makes clear that the rapture will be immediately after the tribulation. For Matthew 24:30-31 is referring to the same second coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which is referring to the same second coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Matthew 24:29 shows that these things won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18. That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' second coming and the resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7-20:6, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church and the Antichrist sits in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of a third Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' return, his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30) and then marry in the clouds the obedient portion of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, cf. Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" (Revelation 3:5), before they mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the unsaved armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the just-resurrected and married obedient portion of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9, 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient portion of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of partial preterism or full preterism or historicism or spiritualism) could leave some believers less prepared mentally to go through the coming tribulation.

The Bible gives us clear warning ahead of time about everything that we're going to have to face during the coming tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation 1:3, Revelation 22:16) of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18, so that we can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Mark 13:5-6,21-23, Luke 21:8, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that we can be better prepared mentally to endure the coming tribulation with patience and faith unto the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13), and not get so mad at God over our and our loved ones' awful physical suffering during the coming tribulation (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21) that we wrongly employ our free will to depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Luke 8:13, Matthew 24:9-13), to the ultimate loss of our salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Hebrews 10:38-39).

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hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #12:

I think the frog spirits, although being symbolic in Rev. are similar to the 'grey' aliens which are popping up all over the place now in these latter days- they are demonic spirits.

If the specific aliens that some people claim to have had contact with (such as "the Greys") truly exist, they could be fallen angels or demons. Or they could be real aliens in the sense of material beings from some other star system. Or, if interstellar travel is physically impossible because of the practical limits which special relativity places on how fast matter can travel, they could be material beings from our own solar system who evolved (by God's created process of evolution) or were miraculously created long before humans, whether on this planet, or on the second or fourth planet from the sun, in some past eon when either or both of those planets was inhabitable.

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Regarding the idea of aliens in general, the universe is so vast (with something like 100 billion different galaxies, each containing something like 100 billion different stars) that even if only one out of 10 billion stars in the universe has a planet with intelligent life on it, this would mean that there are 1 trillion inhabited planets in the universe. This would be to the great glory of God, for he's the Creator of everything (Revelation 4:11).

God could deal with intelligent life on other planets in the universe in the same way that he deals with us: some individuals could go to a heaven when they die, while others could go to a hell. Or, the intelligent life on some other planets may have never fallen into sin, like Adam and Eve did, so that the intelligent life on those planets never became mortal.

Any such unfallen, intelligent life could be living in sinless, immortal bliss on their planets like Adam and Eve did in the Garden of Eden before their fall. Also, ultimately, the destiny of saved people on this planet isn't to live forever in heaven like ghosts strumming harps on clouds, but to live forever in resurrected, immortal, physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:52-53, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) on a new earth with God (Revelation 21).

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Some people feel that aliens can't possibly exist because the Bible makes no mention of them. But not everything that exists has to be mentioned in the Bible (cf. John 21:25). For example, the Bible makes no mention of velcro, yet it exists. And the Bible makes no mention of the fact that the earth orbits the sun, and not vice versa as many Bible believers mistakenly assumed for centuries. Such believers even mistakenly claimed that the heliocentric system was a lie which was against the revealed knowledge of God in the Bible that the sun orbits the earth. Of course the truth is that nothing in the Bible requires a geocentric system. Similarly, nothing in the Bible requires that aliens can't possibly exist.

Also, the argument that other inhabited planets can't exist because if they did exist the Bible would have told us about them, is like someone in the 1300s in Europe saying: "Other inhabited continents can't exist besides the ones in the Bible: Europe, Africa and Asia. For if other inhabited continents did exist the Bible would have told us about them". Of course the truth is that the Bible made no mention of the other inhabited continents of North America, South America and Australia, and yet they existed. Similarly, even though the Bible makes no mention of other inhabited planets, they could exist.

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Some people feel that we mustn't believe in the existence of aliens because then we could be deceived by entities (such as Satan and other fallen angels) claiming to be aliens. But the existence of aliens doesn't require that all aliens must be good, just as the existence of angels doesn't require that all angels must be good. We would have to judge an alien in the same way that we would judge an angel: by the doctrine that he teaches (Galatians 1:8), by his faithfulness to God's Word the Bible (2 Timothy 4:2-4, 1 Timothy 4:1), by his obedience to God. Also, the Bible doesn't say that Satan appears as a good alien, but it does say that he can appear as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14). So worrying about being deceived only by "aliens" is a dangerous distraction; we need to be careful of being deceived even by angels of light.

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Some people feel that other inhabited planets in other star systems can't possibly exist because God is going to live with only us on this planet (Revelation 21:2-3). But God can live in more than one place at a time (Psalms 139:7-10). Something similar to Revelation 21:2-3 could already be in place on billions of other inhabited planets. For just as the body of each individual believer on this planet is the tabernacle/the temple of God (1 Corinthians 6:19), so each unfallen and each regenerated planet could have its own tabernacle/holy city of God; and God can reign in all of them simultaneously, just as he can reign in each believer on this planet simultaneously (John 14:23, Ephesians 3:17).

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Some people feel that fallen aliens can't possibly exist because the book of life, the lake of fire, the judgment days, and the third heaven are for only humans from this planet. But each fallen planet could have the equivalent of its own book of life, its own Hades, its own lake of fire, its own judgment for the saved only, and its own great white throne judgment. Some fallen planets' judgments could have already occurred billions of years ago, while others may not occur for billions of years after the judgments on this planet are completed. Also, each inhabited planet could have its own third heaven, above each planet, in a fourth spatial dimension, a spiritual realm beyond the three spatial dimensions of the physical universe.

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Some people feel that fallen aliens can't possibly exist because Christ can die for sins only once (Hebrews 10:10) and only for the sins of humans on this planet (Hebrews 2:16-17). But just as Christ incarnated as a human on this planet (John 1:1,14) and died once for the sins of humans on this planet, so he could have incarnated as other intelligent life-forms on other fallen planets and died once for them as well.

Also, the universe could be so old (some 14 billion years, while the earth could be some 5 billion years old) that many fallen inhabited planets could have already completed their regeneration billions of years ago, with their saved inhabitants having had their sins forgiven by faith in a divine sacrifice on their planet and their bodies already having been resurrected and changed into immortal bodies (which the saved still await on this planet: 1 Corinthians 15:51-53) so that they became like/equal to the angels of God in heaven (cf. Matthew 22:30, Luke 20:36), so that some, or even almost all, of the entities which we call "angels" could have started out as what we would call "aliens" on other planets.

If even some unresurrected humans on this planet can sometimes be called "angels" (in the sense of "messengers", e.g. see Luke 7:24's original Greek), why couldn't some redeemed and resurrected aliens on other planets be assigned by God to this planet to serve as angels/messengers of God to minister to the unresurrected elect on this planet (cf. Hebrews 1:14)? And once the saved on this planet have been resurrected into immortality and become like/equal to the angels of God in heaven, why couldn't some of them be assigned by God to other fallen planets which have not yet been regenerated, to serve as angels/messengers of God to minister to the unresurrected elect on those planets?

We really need to get away from every form of geocentrism. Just as it was a mistake for some believers to refuse to accept for so long the fact that the earth isn't the physical center of the universe, indeed, isn't even the physical center of our solar system, so it's a mistake for some believers to refuse to accept the very real possibility that the earth isn't the spiritual center of the universe either, but could be just one of a trillion inhabited planets in this universe, all filled with worshippers of God. And there could be trillions of other universes outside our own, filled with a googolplex of inhabited planets (or other structures which we can't even imagine). We infinitesimal humans on this one, infinitesimal planet really need to have some sense of humility (Isaiah 40:15,17, Psalms 8:3-4).

Bible2 · Feb 27, 2012

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #12:

The battle of Gog and Magog ends in the defeat of Gog, but Gog must also be the antichrist, as it says also that 'are you not him whom the prophets spoke of in times past' (to paraphrase)..

The Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) won't occur during the coming tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18, but will occur after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11), which is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls and is in constant fear of attack.

At the beginning of the millennium, all present-day weapons of war will be destroyed, and they won't be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That's why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect and cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39, an individual human leader whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3), who could be born near the end of the millennium, and who will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog attack (Ezekiel 39:11).

The Gog/Magog armies are defeated by fire from heaven in both accounts of the attack (Ezekiel 38:22b, Revelation 20:9b).

The Gog/Magog attack won't have to involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could just be a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus Christ's worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2), but after the millennium they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

While the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), nothing requires that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after the defeat of the attack. For there will be at least seven years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack and the great white throne judgment.

While the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack at the start of the coming tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

Jerusalem could be attacked in the future at least three times before the millennium: once near the start of the coming tribulation (Daniel 11:22), once again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then once again at the end of the tribulation (Daniel 11:45), right before the second coming of Jesus Christ (Zechariah 14:2-21).

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hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #12:

So you envisage the appearance of fallen angels again, upon the earth?

Yes. Near the end of the first half of the coming tribulation, after the weird locust-like beings have stung mankind for five months (Revelation 9:2-11), an army of 200,000,000 weird horse-like beings will come upon the earth and kill a third of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19). This army will be led by four powerful fallen angels who will be released from being bound at the Euphrates river (Revelation 9:14-15). If the army of horse-like beings descends from the sky in spaceships, the world could at first see them as aliens, but the Antichrist could (falsely) say that they're the main army of YHWH. In fact, the army could be loyal to Lucifer/Satan instead. The four fallen angels could employ the army to make mankind completely desperate before its complete takeover by Lucifer (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9-13:18).

For when the army of 200,000,000 weird horse-like beings starts killing a third of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19), then could also begin the biggest deception ever wrought upon mankind (besides the original one in Eden: Genesis 3). For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the President of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world that he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels and rescue mankind from this murderous army of YHWH".

It's at this point that Lucifer (Satan) and his angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth for good after losing a war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in magnificent, gigantic golden spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars" (Mars being the same as Marduk, the chief god of ancient Babylon), the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. And Lucifer, a literal, seven-headed dragon (Revelation 12:3,9) could emerge in great splendor and command his legions of angels to destroy the army of 200,000,000 weird horse-like beings.

Lucifer could then confirm that he has come to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, who he could say is his only-begotten "Son", was able to send out a mental distress call to his "Father" Lucifer in heaven to come to the rescue with his legions of angels (like an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53: "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received wholeheartedly by the unsaved world as the saviors of mankind. And the unsaved world could be left thinking (mistakenly) that Lucifer and his angels were more powerful than even the main army of YHWH.

Bible2 · Feb 27, 2012

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #13:

I believe that the earth and creation are only 6000 years old.

Note that no scripture says or requires that. All the Bible requires is that Adam was created about 6,000 years ago. For various verses in the Bible make it possible to estimate the year BC that Adam (as opposed to the earth) was created, by working back from the year BC that Solomon's temple began to be built:

Historians say that Solomon's temple began to be built about 966 BC.
And 1 Kings 6:1 says that Solomon's temple began to be built 480 years after the Exodus of Israel from Egypt.
And Exodus 12:40-41 says that Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus.
And Genesis 47:9 shows that Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 years old.
And Genesis 25:26 says that Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 years old.
And Genesis 21:5 says that Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 years old.
And Genesis 11:26 shows that Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 years old.
And Genesis 11:24 says that Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 years old.
And Genesis 11:22 says that Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 years old.
And Genesis 11:20 says that Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 years old.
And Genesis 11:18 says that Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 years old.
And Genesis 11:16 says that Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 years old.
And Genesis 11:14 says that Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 years old.
And Genesis 11:12 says that Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 years old.
And Genesis 11:10 says that Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 years old.
And Genesis 11:10 and Genesis 7:6 taken together show that Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 years old.
And Genesis 5:28-29 says that Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 years old.
And Genesis 5:25 says that Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 years old.
And Genesis 5:21 says that Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 years old.
And Genesis 5:18 says that Enoch was born when his father Jared was 162 years old.
And Genesis 5:15 says that Jared was born when his father Mahalaleel was 65 years old.
And Genesis 5:12 says that Mahalaleel was born when his father Cainan was 70 years old.
And Genesis 5:9 says that Cainan was born when his father Enos was 90 years old.
And Genesis 5:6 says that Enos was born when his father Seth was 105 years old.
And Genesis 5:3 says that Seth was born when his father Adam was 130 years old.

Adding up all the numbers of years above, we see that Adam was created about 4114 BC. This lines up with the fact that our current human civilization began about 4,000 BC.

If Adam was created about 4114 BC, this means that 6,000 years since Adam's creation were completed back at the end of about 1886 AD, and that the seventh millennium since Adam's creation began about 1887 AD. (But this doesn't require that the millennium of Revelation 20:4-6 has begun yet.)

It's curious that the Mayan calendar begins in 3114 BC, exactly 1,000 years after 4114 BC, the possible date of Adam's creation.

The numbers of years in the list of scriptures above show that Abraham (who was first promised the land of Israel by God: Exodus 32:13) was born about 1948 years after the creation of Adam, just as the modern state of Israel was established in 1948 AD.

If Solomon's temple began to be built about 966 BC, then 1 Kings 6:1 means that the Exodus may have occurred about 1446 BC.

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Regarding the claim above that our current human civilization began about 4,000 BC (subsequent to Adam's creation about 4114 BC), by "civilization" was meant "the stage of cultural development at which writing and the keeping of written records is attained" (Webster's, print-version); "The 4th millennium BC saw major changes in human culture. It marked the beginning of the Bronze Age and of writing. The city states of Sumer and the kingdom of Egypt were established and grew to prominence" (Wikipedia -- 4th millennium BC).

Regarding "civilization" being defined by Oxford Dictionaries as the "most advanced" stage of human social development and organization, our current human civilization (4th millennium BC to the present) is the most advanced stage of human social development and organization, compared to all known prehistoric (pre-4th millennium BC) stages.

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Regarding the claim above that our current human civilization began about 4,000 BC, by "current" was meant that civilization which began in the 4th millennium BC and continues on today, as opposed to any pre-Adamic human civilizations which may have existed from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of years ago.

If there were pre-Adamic civilizations, they could have reached as high a level of technology as our modern technology today, for the Bible says "there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. There is no remembrance of former things" (Ecclesiastes 1:9-11). And even our future technology could have already been invented during past eons, for "that which is to be hath already been" (Ecclesiastes 3:15).

But all past-eons technology on the earth could have been completely obliterated by God, leaving no trace of it, just as all our own technology today (and in our future) will eventually be completely obliterated by God, when "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10b). Here by "earth" could be meant just the surface of the earth, for the planet itself could continue on forever (Ecclesiastes 1:4, Psalms 104:5, Psalms 78:69b), so that the future "new earth" (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) could mean a new surface for the earth.

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Regarding the claim above that our current human civilization began about 4,000 BC, by "human" was meant human civilization in general, as opposed to the civilization of any particular people (e.g. Mayan civilization).

Also, by "human" civilization was meant civilization started by humans as opposed to any non-human animals. For preceding the first human civilization, there could have been non-human mammalian civilizations some 65 to 2 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent horse-like creatures (cf. Revelation 9:17-19), who could have rebelled against God and then been banished from the earth (and forced to live, perhaps, in underground bases somewhere away from the planet, such as on the far side of the moon and/or on Mars, for the future army of 200 million weird horse-like creatures in Revelation 9:16-19 will have to come from somewhere).

Preceding the first mammalian civilization, there could have been reptilian civilizations some 250 to 65 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent dragon/dinosaur creatures (cf. Revelation 12:9).

And preceding the first reptilian civilization, there could have been amphibian civilizations some 350 to 250 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent frog-like creatures, who could have rebelled against God and become unclean spirits (cf. Revelation 16:13).

And preceding the first amphibian civilization, there could have been insect civilizations some 450 to 350 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent locust-like creatures (cf. Revelation 9:3-10), who could have rebelled against God and been banished to a cavern deep within the earth's crust (cf. Revelation 9:2-3,11).

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Evolution can co-exist with creationism, just as an automated process invented by a human (e.g. a computer program which creates random, colorful pictures which can be seen as art) can co-exist with that same human sometimes performing a task himself, directly (e.g. painting some pictures by hand).

Creationism includes what could be called the double-gap theory, meaning that there could have been two different gaps of time in Genesis chapters 1-2, the first gap having occurred between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, and the second gap having occurred between Genesis 2:4 and Genesis 2:5.

Genesis 1:1 could have occurred some 4.5 billions years ago, when God first created the planet earth and its atmosphere (the first heaven, in which the birds fly: cf. Genesis 1:20b). Between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, some 4.5 billion years could have occurred, in which God could have allowed his own created process of evolution (random mutation and survival of the fittest) to serve as a mechanism by which new species arose on the earth. During those same 4.5 billion years, God could have also sometimes gone outside of evolution and created new species miraculously, whenever he wanted (cf. punctuated equilibria).

Genesis 1:2 could refer to the condition of the earth only some 12,000 years ago (at the end of the Paleolithic period), after some cataclysm, such as a comet strike, had killed off all life on the planet (both evolved and miraculously created), and had submerged all land areas in water (comets contain huge amounts of water), and had ruined the atmosphere. The impact of the comet could have also knocked the earth out of its orbit around its original star, so that the earth was sent hurtling into the darkness of interstellar space. Genesis 1:3-2:4 could then refer to God, over a period of six literal, 24-hour days (some 12,000 years ago, at the start of the Neolithic period), miraculously restoring to the earth light, a good atmosphere, dry land, and life, including a race of male and female homo sapiens sapiens, after God had miraculously restored land plants (Genesis 1:11-13) and land animals (Genesis 1:24-25) to the earth.

Then, only about 6,000 years ago, God miraculously created on the earth an individual male homo sapiens sapiens named Adam in an uninhabited desert land (Genesis 2:5-7; the original Hebrew word translated there as "earth" can simply refer to a certain "land"; cf. Genesis 2:11). After that, God planted the plants of the Garden of Eden in that desert land (Genesis 2:8-9) and God placed Adam in that garden (Genesis 2:15). After that, God miraculously created the animals of the Garden of Eden (Genesis 2:19). After that, God miraculously created in the Garden of Eden an individual female homo sapiens sapiens (Genesis 2:22) whom Adam named Eve (Genesis 3:20).

If there were pre-Adamic humans existing on the earth when God created Adam, they could have died in the same ways people die today, and their descendants could have died during Noah's flood.

1 Corinthians 15:45 doesn't require that there were no pre-Adamic humans on the earth. For just as "the first day" in Philippians 1:5 doesn't have to mean "the first day" of Genesis 1:5, and just as "the first works" in Revelation 2:5 doesn't have to mean the first earthly works of Genesis 1:1, so "the first man" in 1 Corinthians 15:45 doesn't have to mean the first homo sapiens sapiens ever to exist on the earth. Instead, Adam could have simply been the first man of the Adamic line of homo sapiens sapiens, which could be the only line alive on the earth today.

Because Adam was created only about 6,000 years ago, but there are homo sapiens sapiens fossils said to be as old as about 200,000 years, God could have first created homo sapiens sapiens (or it could have evolved by God's created process of evolution) as far back as about 200,000 years.

Also, all the different hominid forms the fossils of which long predate or are as old as the earliest fossils of homo sapiens sapiens, and which preceding or co-existing hominid forms we don't consider to have been fully human like us (such as homo sapiens neanderthalensis), could have all been created by God (or could have evolved by God's created process of evolution) over millions of years prior to the first appearance of homo sapiens sapiens on the earth.

And this doesn't even get into the possibly trillion other inhabited planets in the universe on which homo sapiens sapiens (or similar or far more advanced life-forms) could have been created by God (or could have evolved by God's created process of evolution) billions of years prior to the first appearance of homo sapiens sapiens on the earth. For the universe could be about 14 billions years old, and there are something like 100 billion different galaxies in the universe, each containing something like 100 billion different stars. So even if only one out of 10 billion stars in the universe has an inhabited planet, this would still mean that there are 1 trillion inhabited planets in the universe. And on most of these planets God could have begun his miraculous work (and the work of his created process of evolution) billions of years before beginning his miraculous work (and the work of his created process of evolution) on the earth.

hiscosmicgoldfish · Mar 1, 2012

Bible2 said:
Also, by "human" civilization was meant civilization started by humans as opposed to any non-human animals. For preceding the first human civilization, there could have been non-human mammalian civilizations some 65 to 2 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent horse-like creatures (cf. Revelation 9:17-19), who could have rebelled against God and then been banished from the earth (and forced to live, perhaps, in underground bases somewhere away from the planet, such as on the far side of the moon and/or on Mars, for the future army of 200 million weird horse-like creatures in Revelation 9:16-19 will have to come from somewhere).

Preceding the first mammalian civilization, there could have been reptilian civilizations some 250 to 65 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent dragon/dinosaur creatures (cf. Revelation 12:9).

And preceding the first reptilian civilization, there could have been amphibian civilizations some 350 to 250 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent frog-like creatures, who could have rebelled against God and become unclean spirits (cf. Revelation 16:13).

And preceding the first amphibian civilization, there could have been insect civilizations some 450 to 350 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent locust-like creatures (cf. Revelation 9:3-10), who could have rebelled against God and been banished to a cavern deep within the earth's crust (cf. Revelation 9:2-3,11).

Although i dont go along with this, it might be worth considering a pre-adamic civilisation, perhaps of reptilian angels, with the red dragon as the top dog. I saw a video by Bill Schnoebelen, and he said that there might have been 5 cherubs originally, Ox, Man, Eagle, Lion, and one missimg... Reptile, and the reptile cherub was the covering cherub, which fell from grace. This cherub had a kingdom on the earth, and is as yet still the prince of this world, as the kingdom has not as yet been reclaimed by Christ. Schnoebelen was talking about a kingdom of intelligent dinosaurs, which is what you mentioned, above.

I had thought that the cherub was always bovid form, because of the cryptic clue given in Ezekiel, but perhaps the cherubs were representative forms of the main groups of creation, a bit like the living creature, full of eyes in Revelation, a creation template in heaven.
The cherubs and the seraphim have wings, but angels do not have wings, and in my early vision, the angels were genderless men of bronze.

Getting back to my apocalyptic experience, I am not sure if I said that it was to start with a vaccination campaign. Everyone was going to get a vaccination, and that act was something like the mark of the beast. There was an antichrist figure, requiring this. I had a 'hallucination' where i could feel the needles hit my arm in different places, it was very real, and odd. The return of Christ was imminent, and this was like a tragedy, where people were .... there was something tragic about what was happening.

Bible2 · Mar 7, 2012

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #17:

... he said that there might have been 5 cherubs originally . . .

That could be right, with four of them being Lucifer's chief lieutenants. The five could have been pictured in part of the Mosaic tabernacle (see the bolded section below):

The parts of the Old Covenant Mosaic tabernacle could have foreshadowed YHWH's New Covenant way of salvation (Jeremiah 31:31-34). The altar for animal sacrifices (Exodus 27:1, Exodus 29:12-13) could have foreshadowed Christ's New Covenant sacrifice (Matthew 26:28). The laver with its water (Exodus 30:18) could have foreshadowed water baptism (Acts 22:16). The menorah with its flames (Exodus 25:31,37) could have foreshadowed Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 1:5b, Acts 2:3-4). The table with its shewbread (Exodus 25:23,30) could have foreshadowed communion (1 Corinthians 11:26). The altar for incense (Exodus 30:1) could have foreshadowed Christian prayer (cf. Revelation 8:4). The ark of the covenant (Exodus 25:10, Numbers 10:33) with its mercy seat (Exodus 25:21) could have foreshadowed the establishment of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28) and Christians obtaining its mercy (Hebrews 4:16), unto eternal life (Jude 1:21).

At the same time, the tabernacle could have been a figurative model of the earth and its three heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2b). The courtyard of the tabernacle could have represented the earth and it atmosphere, the first heaven (Genesis 1:20b). The holy place of the tabernacle could have represented the second heaven, outer space (Deuteronomy 4:19). And the most holy place of the tabernacle could have represented the third heaven spiritual realm (2 Corinthians 12:2b).

In the courtyard of the tabernacle, the altar (Exodus 27:1) could have represented the earth's land areas. The laver with its water (Exodus 30:18) could have represented the sea (cf. also "the sea" part of the first temple: 1 Kings 7:23). And the veil between the courtyard and the holy place (Exodus 26:36) could have represented the atmosphere. The five pillars that held up that veil (Exodus 26:37) could have represented the five most powerful (now fallen) angelic princes who (before they were fallen) were assigned by God to rule the earth from its atmosphere/sky/air (Ephesians 6:12). The central of these five pillars could have represented Lucifer (Satan), "the prince of the power of the air" (Ephesians 2:2), while the other four pillars could have represented four of his most powerful lieutenants.

In the holy place of the tabernacle, the seven lights (Exodus 25:37) could have represented the seven (moving) lights in outer space visible to the naked eye from the viewpoint of earth: the sun, the moon, the first planet from the sun, the second planet, the fourth planet, the fifth planet, and the sixth planet. The twelve loaves (Leviticus 24:5-6) could have represented the twelve constellations of the Mazzaroth (Job 38:32). At the same time, the seven lights (both in the tabernacle and in the sky) could have been patterned after the third heaven's "seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God" (Revelation 4:5b).

In the most holy place of the tabernacle, the veil between the holy place and the most holy place (Exodus 26:33b) could have represented the line between outer space (i.e. space-time throughout the universe) and the third heaven spiritual realm. The four pillars that held up that veil (Exodus 26:32) could have represented the four dimensions of space-time, the four fundamental forces of space-time (gravity, electromagnetism, the strong nuclear force, and the weak nuclear force), and the four possible states of matter in space-time (solid, liquid, gas, plasma); so that going past the four pillars could have represented going beyond space-time and into the third heaven spiritual realm. At the same time, all the different sets of four things referred to above could have been patterned after the third heaven's four beasts/seraphims (Revelation 4:8, Isaiah 6:2-3).

The vertical boards which formed the back wall of the most holy place of the tabernacle included six boards (Exodus 26:22) of a regular width of 1.5 cubits (Exodus 26:16), plus two corner boards (Exodus 26:23) which each had to have been 1/3 the regular width, so that the width of the back wall would be 10 cubits, equal to the 10-cubit height of the boards (Exodus 26:16), and equal to the 10-cubit length of the most holy place (this length being based on the top-covering curtains of the tabernacle in Exodus 26:1-13 having been most likely coupled by the taches of gold at the line between the holy place and the most holy place). That is, in order for the most holy place to have been a perfect cube, 10 cubits (15 feet) on a side (similar to how the literal, heavenly city of New Jerusalem is a perfect cube, 1500 miles on a side: Revelation 21:16), the back wall of the tabernacle had to have been formed by the equivalent of 6.66 regular-width boards.

That the back wall of the most holy place of the tabernacle had, in effect, the number 6.66 connected with it could have represented the future rebellion of the man commonly called the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), the gematrial number of whose personal name adds up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). For he could break through the back wall of the third Jewish temple (which will be built) and he could then enter in that back way when he sits in the temple and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4). He could take great delight in entering the temple's most holy place by this forced, "back way", for it would show his utter rejection of YHWH's way to eternal life, pictured by the tabernacle.

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hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #17:

... Ox, Man, Eagle, Lion, and one missimg...

Is that referring to Revelation 4:7-8? If so, those aren't cherubim, but seraphim (Isaiah 6:2-3)

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hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #17:

This cherub had a kingdom on the earth, and is as yet still the prince of this world, as the kingdom has not as yet been reclaimed by Christ.

Regarding Satan still being the prince of this world, see the last part of post #8.

Regarding the kingdom not as yet been reclaimed by Christ, he won't reclaim it legally until the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18.

Some people feel that the seventh trumpet, which will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, must be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. But the "last trump" won't sound until after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 is over, at the second coming of Jesus (Matthew 24:29-31), which doesn't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be resurrected (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7-20:6).

Some people feel that Revelation 11:15-19 means the second coming will occur immediately after the sounding of the seventh trumpet and the declaration of the replacement of the Antichrist's (the beast's) 1,260-day worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) with the reign of Jesus (Revelation 11:15). But a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). The only part of Revelation 11:18 that will happen immediately after the seventh trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come" (Revelation 11:18), for the plagues of the vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the final stage of the tribulation, will come out of the heavenly temple opening of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5-16:1).

The vials of God's wrath could then last for 75 days, for they could begin immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin at the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36); and Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation:

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Daniel 12:11-12 (and Revelation 16:15) could mean that exactly 1,335 (literal 24-hour) days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of a third Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15), Jesus will return, and blessed are those believers who wait and remain obedient until that day.

If the 3.5 years/1,260 (literal 24-hour) days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6b) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), and if the seven vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 3.5 years/1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign are over (Revelation 11:15,19, Revelation 15:5-16:1), and if the first six vials will be poured out over a period of 30 days, then the sixth vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11).

It's on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Daniel 12:12/Revelation 16:15 could be given, after the sixth vial has been poured out (Revelation 16:12), encouraging those in the church who will still be alive on the earth to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus returns on the 1,335th day (Daniel 12:12, Revelation 16:15). The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the armies of the world to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

But before Jesus defeats them, at his second coming the church (which is the elect: Colossians 3:12, 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2) will first be raptured into the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) to be judged by the returned Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to him (Revelation 19:7).

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Also, regarding Jesus' second coming, he won't return and take de facto, physical possession of the earth until after the seventh vial of the tribulation has occurred (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-20:3). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California 75 days before he moves to California to live in that house.

At Jesus' return, he will resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry it (Revelation 19:7). Immediately after that, Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the sounding of the seventh trumpet. And because a "time" can last awhile, this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not resurrected and judged at Jesus' return won't be resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within the "time" of Revelation 11:18, because the original Greek word (kairos, G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.

Bible2 · Mar 7, 2012

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #17:

Getting back to my apocalyptic experience, I am not sure if I said that it was to start with a vaccination campaign. Everyone was going to get a vaccination, and that act was something like the mark of the beast.

There could be a connection between a vaccination campaign and the mark of the beast in that the vaccine and the mark could be administered at the same time, by the same doctor/nurse type of people who are trained to use needles and surgical scalpels and bandages properly and antiseptically. For the "mark of the beast" (Revelation 13:16-17, Revelation 16:2) could be a permanent scar applied via a scalpel.

The mark will be a literal, physical mark which will be visible to humans, because otherwise they couldn't tell whether or not someone should be permitted to buy or sell (Revelation 13:17), and because the original Greek of Revelation 13:16 shows that the mark will be placed only "on" (epi), not inside, people's right hands or foreheads, and probably by scarification. For one of the definitions of "charagma" (the original Greek word used in Revelation 13:16 to refer to the mark) is a scratch or etching, and scarification is the scratching or etching (i.e. the cutting) of the skin to leave a permanent mark. The reason people will be given the mark in Revelation 13:16, in the context of what had been shown just previously in Revelation 13:4,8,15, will be to serve as a visible indicator to other people that they're loyal worshippers of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) himself (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and of the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:4,8,15), just as some Luciferians today put a mark on themselves by scarification.

The mark will consist of only the name of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) "or" the gematrial number of his name (Revelation 13:17-18), meaning that the mark will be the Antichrist's name for some people and the gematrial number of his name for other people. And the mark will be placed only on the right hands (probably on the palms) of people "or" on their foreheads (Revelation 13:16), meaning that it will be placed on the right hands of some people and on the foreheads of other people.

Those who refuse to receive the mark of the Antichrist won't be allowed to buy or sell anything (Revelation 13:17), and they will be executed by being beheaded if they refuse to worship the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:15, Revelation 20:4). Christians must be willing to suffer this fate rather than agree to receive the mark of the Antichrist or worship him or his image, for those who agree to do those things (even if they're Christians) will suffer God's wrath in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-13), whereas those Christians who refuse to do those things, even though they will be beheaded, they will subsequently be resurrected into immortality (along with the rest of the church) at Jesus Christ's second coming (Revelation 20:4-6, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58). And even before their resurrection, at the moment of their death their still-conscious souls will be brought into the presence of Jesus himself in heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46).

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In the future, when the world begins to worship the Antichrist as God (Revelation 13:8, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), some people could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their right palms, just as lovers in the past were sometimes known to have the initials of their loved ones placed by scarification on their palms (cf. also Isaiah 49:16). Other of the Antichrist's worshippers could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their foreheads, thinking (mistakenly) that they're fulfilling the Christian idea of Revelation 22:4, which refers to the future point in time when Jesus will put God's name visibly on the foreheads of obedient Christians (Revelation 3:12). The Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, who will be the one to cause everyone to be marked with the mark of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:16-18), could even convince people that he (the False Prophet) is Jesus returned (but he won't say that he's Christ or God, for he and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is Christ or God: 1 John 2:22).

Instead of having the Antichrist's name engraved on their right hands or foreheads, some of his worshippers will have the gematrial number of his name (Revelation 13:17c-18) engraved on their right hands or foreheads. The gematrial number of the Antichrist's name is 666 (Revelation 13:17b-18). But because some people could refuse to have this number placed on their bodies, in order to make a mark of 666 acceptable to all people, it could be disguised to look like something else in those cases where people demand something other than "666". For example, it could be disguised in some cases to look like "777", "WWW", "VVV", "|| || ||", or "FFF". For the sixth letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet (Vav) represents the number 6, but it looks like a "7", and it's transliterated into English either as a "W" or a "V". Also, two thin vertical lines "||" represent the number 6 on many UPC codes. And the letter "F" also has a numerical value of 6, in English gematria.

In a curious coincidence, "FFF" also stands for an extremely powerful type of nuclear bomb: Fission-Fusion-Fission. Could this be the type of bomb with which the ten kings of the Antichrist's empire will burn up the cities of the world near the end of the coming tribulation (Revelation 17:12,16-17a, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2,11)?

The "WWW" which has already been placed on many web addresses, and the "|| || ||" which has already been placed across many UPC codes on products, are harbingers of when Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) will give the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) ownership of everything on the earth (Revelation 13:2c, cf. Luke 4:7), and of the Antichrist's placing of his "brand" on everything, like a rancher places his "brand" on all his cattle. For both "WWW" and "|| || ||" are disguised representations of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's own, personal name (Revelation 13:17c-18). But Revelation 13:16 isn't fulfilled by some web addresses currently having "WWW", nor by some products currently having "|| || ||", because Revelation 13:16 refers only to when people themselves will be given the Antichrist's mark, either on their right hands or their foreheads.

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Those assigned to have the mark placed on their foreheads (instead of on their right hands) (Revelation 13:16) could be those who will be an elite, illumined, cognoscenti class of Gnostic Luciferians who alone will have been given knowledge of the ultimate secrets of the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism. The Antichrist will be both a Luciferian (Revelation 13:4) and a Gnostic, denying that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and forbidding marriage and the eating of meat (1 Timothy 4:1-3). The cream of his cognoscenti could be a faux 144,000, consisting of male virgins (as a counterfeit of Revelation 14:4) who have never eaten meat. If they receive the mark of the Antichrist's name (instead of a representation of the number of his name) (Revelation 13:17) on their foreheads, this will be as a counterfeit of YHWH's 144,000 in Revelation 14:1. But the Antichrist won't pretend that he's YHWH, just as he won't pretend that he's Christ. Instead, as a Gnostic he will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And his Gnostic denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being the Christ.

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hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #17:

.... there was something tragic about what was happening.

The tragedy could be that even many in the church will being deceived (or scared) into receiving the mark of the beast. This will be possible because in Matthew 24:24b, Jesus doesn't say "if it were possible" for the elect to be deceived, in the sense of it not being possible. Instead, in the original Greek all Jesus says is "if possible", meaning that false Christs and false prophets will perform great miracles by the power of Satan (cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9) as part of Satan's intention of deceiving as many of the elect as possible. Jesus nowhere says that it's not possible for any elect person to be deceived. Instead, Jesus had started out in Matthew 24 by specifically warning the elect to "Take heed that no man deceive you" (Matthew 24:4), meaning that it's possible for the elect to be deceived, if they don't take heed to Jesus' warning regarding great-miracle-working false Christs and false prophets who will appear in the future (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Mark 13:5-6,21-23, Luke 21:8, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20).

The elect can also be deceived in other ways, either before their salvation (Titus 3:3, Romans 7:11) or after their salvation (1 John 3:7, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Corinthians 15:33, Galatians 6:7, Ephesians 5:6, 2 Thessalonians 2:3). Paul warns the elect that "The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1); the time will come when some "shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Timothy 4:4). For it's possible for a saved person to commit apostasy, to the ultimate loss of his salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Regarding how even many in the church could be deceived in the future, see the 2nd and 3rd parts of post #6.

Gary7 · Jun 5, 2012

Sounds like a flashback from the French Revolution.

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