Was Abraham saved by Grace?

FredVB

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I disagree because you are applying worldly standards - that we have to somehow 'earn' God's grace. What you are suggesting is that we can work our way to God by our faith - as if our faith is something to shout about.

We are saved according to our faith as promised by Yahweh God, but it is not a work of ours. In grace that he supplies he makes possible a response of faith, it is all we can do to respond in faith, with redemption in that his Spirit in us enables more according to his will. Some only remain in rebellion when such grace is shown to them.
 
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Ronald

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I'm starting this thread because the topic keeps coming up elsewhere.

Some claim that the prophets and believers who predated the crucifixion (such as Abraham) could not have obtained the same mercy we have.

You answered your own question. Abraham was justified by faith. All Old Testament men who lived by faith were sanctified. Jesus sacrifice resulting in the cleansing of sin and salvation to all who believe was imputed to the faithful of the Old Testament.
 
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Stravinsk

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Not according to James.

James, one of the real Apostles - actually stands as a witness against Paul of Tarsus.

James 2 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[f] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[g] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only

This is why Paul, after being sheltered by Nero!! of all people - is never recorded to have rejoined the Apostles.

The "foolish man" James is referring to is none other than Paul of Tarsus.
 
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Frogster

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Not according to James.

James, one of the real Apostles - actually stands as a witness against Paul of Tarsus.

James 2 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[f] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[g] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only

This is why Paul, after being sheltered by Nero!! of all people - is never recorded to have rejoined the Apostles.

The "foolish man" James is referring to is none other than Paul of Tarsus.

wha? sheltered? he was a prisoner.:doh:



acts 28;16 And when we came into Rome, Paul was allowed to stay by himself, with the soldier who guarded him.





and Jesus told him that he would preach in rome, as he did preach, as recorded in acts 28, not to mention the gorious episltes were written in the imprisonment too, so he was in the will of God!:p


Acts 23:11
The following night the Lord stood near Paul and said, “Take courage! As you have testified about me in Jerusalem, so you must also testify in Rome.”
 
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Stravinsk

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wha? sheltered? he was a prisoner.:doh:



acts 28;16 And when we came into Rome, Paul was allowed to stay by himself, with the soldier who guarded him.





and Jesus told him that he would preach in rome, as he did preach, as recorded in acts 28, not to mention the gorious episltes were written in the imprisonment too, so he was in the will of God!:p


Acts 23:11
The following night the Lord stood near Paul and said, “Take courage! As you have testified about me in Jerusalem, so you must also testify in Rome.”

Matt 24:26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.

A) Desert
B) Barracks (inner rooms)

The two places Saul/Paul of Tarsus heard the "voice" and saw a blinding light.

So what say you - Frogster - will you be looking into the future for the false prophet in the desert or "inner rooms"?

The Great Tribulation has been that period from early 1st Century until now. It hasn't ended. This is the great tribulation. And there has been bloodshed on a scale that, as Messiah said - the earth has never witnessed before.
 
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Stravinsk

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I'm starting this thread because the topic keeps coming up elsewhere.

Some claim that the prophets and believers who predated the crucifixion (such as Abraham) could not have obtained the same mercy we have.

I say: not so!



Discuss.

Why are we talking about Paul here? This thread is about Abraham and other believers before the cross.

Because the heart of the matter is the doctrine of "faith only". Or "faith that is alone".

Which is what Paul of Tarsus preaches

And James calls him on it.
 
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Lindas Place

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I'm starting this thread because the topic keeps coming up elsewhere.

Some claim that the prophets and believers who predated the crucifixion (such as Abraham) could not have obtained the same mercy we have.

I say: not so!

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace [that would come] to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. -1 Pe 1:10,11

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. -Rom 6:3,4

If we live through Christ, we died with Him, and His death covers us from the penalty of death. If the former believers lived through Him, they also died through Him. The life of Christ is one eternal life and there is no difference between those who came before and those who came after.

Discuss.
taken from- "Salvation: God's Marvelous Work of Grace", by Lewis Sperry Chafer.

Since the fall of man, the basis of salvation has always been the death of Christ. No one, either prior to the cross or since the cross, would ever be saved without that one pivotal event in the history of the world.

Christ's death paid the penalty for past sins of Old Testament saints and future sins of New Testament saints.

The requirement for salvation has always been faith.

The object of one's faith for salvation has always been God.

The Old Testament sacrificial system did not take away sin, as Hebrews 9:1-10:4 clearly teaches. It did, however, point to the day when the Son of God would shed His blood for the sinful human race.

What has changed through the ages is the content of a believer's faith.

God's requirement of what must be believed is based on the amount of revelation He has given mankind up to that time. This is called progressive revelation.

Abraham believed God according to the promises and new revelation God gave him in Genesis 12 and 15.

Prior to Moses, no Scripture was written, but mankind was responsible for what God had revealed.

Throughout the Old Testament, believers came to salvation because they believed that God would someday take care of their sin problem.

Today, we look back, believing that He has already taken care of our sins on Calvary (John 3:16; Hebrews 9:28).

What about believers in Christ's day, prior to the cross and resurrection, what did they believe?

Did they understand the full picture of Christ dying on a cross for their sins?

Late in his ministry, "Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day" (Matthew 16:21).

What was the reaction of His disciples to this message?

"Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, '‘Far be it from you, Lord; this shall not happen to you!'" (16:22).

Peter, and the other disciples, did not know the full truth, yet they were saved because they believed that God would take care of their sin problem.

They didn't exactly know how He would accomplish that, any more than Adam, Abraham, Moses, or David knew how, but they believed God.

Today, we have more revelation than did people living before the resurrection of Christ, we know the full picture. "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son" (Hebrews 1:1-2).

Our salvation is still based on the death of Christ, our faith is still the requirement for salvation, and the object of our faith is still God.

Today for us the content of our faith is that Christ died for our sins, that He was buried, and that He rose the third day (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).
 
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InSpiritInTruth

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Because the heart of the matter is the doctrine of "faith only". Or "faith that is alone".

Which is what Paul of Tarsus preaches

And James calls him on it.

Faith and works go hand in hand. Both Paul and James understood this.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;


2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Because of Paul's faith, and love for God, he worked harder than all the other apostles to bring the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles.;)

 
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Lion King

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Faith and works go hand in hand. Both Paul and James understood this.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;


2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Because of Paul's faith, and love for God, he worked harder than all the other apostles to bring the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles.;)


Exactly.:thumbsup:

Our faith is perfected by love.

See you how faith worked with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? James 2:22
 
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Frogster

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Why are we talking about Paul here? This thread is about Abraham and other believers before the cross.

Hi. Rom 5 is very clear, all sinned and were dead in Adam, the old man, in the reign of sin, Rom5 talks about the act of the one man, that created the reign of grace of 5;17, and 5;21, and that one act, was the cross, so prior to that, all were still in Adam, they had to be, the new Adam, which we are raised up into, according to Rom 6;4, did not happen until the cross, rom 6;6.

So all were in Adam there are no exemptions in 5 for anyone, and they had to be, the last Adam did not rise yet, taking us with him into the new dominion, the new man of 5;21.

The cross went back in time.


Rom 3;25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


But it was not until the cross came, that the regin of grace came, according to rom 5.

These verses confirm, 3;25, and how the cross went back in time, retrospectively...where prior to the cross, sin was not dealt with, in the way that the whole Adamic creation was destroyed, for those who are in the grace reign, of 5;17.



Acts 14:16 In past generations he allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways.



Acts 17;30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent

frog.:)
 
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Frogster

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Matt 24:26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.

A) Desert
B) Barracks (inner rooms)

The two places Saul/Paul of Tarsus heard the "voice" and saw a blinding light.

So what say you - Frogster - will you be looking into the future for the false prophet in the desert or "inner rooms"?

The Great Tribulation has been that period from early 1st Century until now. It hasn't ended. This is the great tribulation. And there has been bloodshed on a scale that, as Messiah said - the earth has never witnessed before.
u said he was sheltering, but the bible says he was a prisoner, and acts 23;11 says, it was the will of The Lord, to preach in rome, and Paul preached in rome, as seen in acts 28, so then u either have to say the Lord "sheltered him under nero", or u must think he was a prisoner, and u were inocrrect.


he called himself a prisoner in eph 3;3.

ok, now lets stay on topic.:thumbsup:
 
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Lindas Place

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Faith and works go hand in hand. Both Paul and James understood this.

Because of Paul's faith, and love for God, he worked harder than all the other apostles to bring the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles.;)

Paul did not say ‘because of my faith and love for God I work harder than others…

Paul said, it was God’s grace (which would be God’s love for Paul) that was with him… is why he worked harder than the others.

This is a good reason to preach the gospel of Grace… It has an effect, God’s power.

1 John 4:18
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.

2 Corinthians 12:9
But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
 
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Fireinfolding

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Faith and works go hand in hand. Both Paul and James understood this.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;


2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Because of Paul's faith, and love for God, he worked harder than all the other apostles to bring the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles.;)

:thumbsup:

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed;because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.


Which is interesting because here it speaks of the circumcision of the heart so that they would love the LORD their God


Duet 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

So the actual love "of God" seems his doing (as shed abroad in them)
 
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InSpiritInTruth

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Paul did not say ‘because of my faith and love for God I work harder than others…

Paul said, it was God’s grace (which would be God’s love for Paul) that was with him… is why he worked harder than the others.

This is a good reason to preach the gospel of Grace… It has an effect, God’s power.

1 John 4:18
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.

2 Corinthians 12:9
But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

I did not say Paul said that, I said that about Paul.:thumbsup:
 
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Fireinfolding

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I did not say Paul said that, I said that about Paul.:thumbsup:

Still works, its not like his love of God come outside of the Holy Ghost who shed the very same in his heart "for God".

Faith worketh by love
 
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Lion King

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I did not say Paul said that, I said that about Paul.:thumbsup:

We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 1:3

Paul certainly laboured more than others and faced all kinds of hardship (2 Corinthians 11:21-27) because of His faith, love and hope in our LORD Jesus Christ.
 
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InSpiritInTruth

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Still works, its not like his love of God come outside of the Holy Ghost who shed the very same in his heart "for God".

Faith worketh by love

I think of Paul when Jesus said...

Luke 7:41-42

King James Version (KJV)


41There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. 42And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

I believe because of the Grace afforded to Paul after persecuting the believers of Jesus, he was forgiven the most amoung the apostles.

And like Peter answered, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And Jesus replied "Thou hast rightly judged."

In this we see some of the worst sinners can also become some of the greatest saints.:thumbsup:
 
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Lindas Place

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:thumbsup:

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed;because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.


Which is interesting because here it speaks of the circumcision of the heart so that they would love the LORD their God


Duet 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed,to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

So the actual love "of God" seems his doing (as shed abroad in them)
exactly... but now I'm going to get out of here, because i'm being convicted for hijacking this thread... lol's... but i'm serious.
 
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