What do nonCatholics think of this Catholic teaching?

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Albion

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I was establishing the precedent for redemptive suffering, not all of Catholic theology.

All right. The issue--from the OP--had been largely connected to Purgatory, but if "redemptive suffering" is supposed to relate to our neighbors in the here and now, you'll have to explain how that is. It's a fabricated term, after all, so if there's some reason for having invented such a term, I'm listening.
 
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steve_bakr

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Albion said:
All right. The issue--from the OP--had been largely connected to Purgatory, but if "redemptive suffering" is supposed to relate to our neighbors in the here and now, you'll have to explain how that is. It's a fabricated term, after all, so if there's some reason for having invented such a term, I'm listening.

Redemptive suffering is our way of understanding the concepts put forward by Paul in Col 1:24 that, as he said, it is possible for Christians--when afflicted--to offer up our suffering on behalf of others and for the Church. It is redemptive for all parties, but we do not imply that forgiveness of sins is accomplished except by Christ himself. Redemptive suffering is good in several ways. One is that it is a selfless act. Another is that it provides us with a meaning for out unavoidable suffering. We do not seek out ways of suffering, but we apply this concept when we are afflicted. Thirdly, if we seek to link our suffering, in some small way, to that of Christ, it gives us a better appreciation for what Christ himself suffered
 
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Albion

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Redemptive suffering is our way of understanding the concepts put forward by Paul in Col 1:24 that, as he said, it is possible for Christians--when afflicted--to offer up our suffering on behalf of others and for the Church.

Paul doesn't say that. He was speaking of himself.

It is redemptive for all parties, but we do not imply, for example that forgiveness of sins is accomplished except by Christ himself. Redemptive suffering is good in several ways. One is that it is a selfless act. Another is that it provides us with a meaning for out unavoidable suffering. We do not seek out ways of suffering, but we apply this concept when we are afflicted. Thirdly, if we seek to link our suffering, in some small way, to that of Christ, it gives us a better appreciation for what Christ himself suffered

It could be a good mental discipline, as I agreed before.
 
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Erose

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Do you agree or disagree with this:

" Even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus or His apostles. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship/adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture. So, if the origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Jesus and His apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, what is the true origin of the Catholic Church? "
What is the origin of the Catholic Church?

Obviously disagree, SU.

A couple of things, we don't worship Mary and the assumption of Mary occurred after most of the NT books were written, but besides that our teachings are Biblical unlike the positions of the son of the Father of Lies that wrote that website.
 
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Erose

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Thank you for your suggestion. I'll take it into consideration.
You welcome Whisper. History is important to know.



As you probably already guessed, I disagree with your assessment of the article and its author.
Read some history from true historians and then come back and evaluate the validity of that website.
 
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Erose

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This is Part I of my response to your statement above. I decided to split this post into two separate posts, because the original message I posted was far too long. I also thought it would be easier for you to read and to respond, if I shortened it. The second part of my response to you is here. I'm replying to your post because I was wondering if you would be willing to discuss the subject of purgatory with me. The questions I would like to ask you are taken from my previous post in this thread, located here. Before I go any further in writing this post, I would like to make it clear to you that I am by no means questioning your salvation nor trying to judge you or belittle your personal faith. I am not trying to be harsh and I certainly don't want to insult you, offend you, or hurt your feelings. It is my sincerest intention for my words or deeds to be done in the name in Jesus and for my words and deeds to glorify God (Colossians 3:17).
Whisper, I am game on responding to your post and hopefully it will clear up a few misconceptions you have about Catholics and their beliefs.

According to Scripture: Jesus bore our sins, nailed them to the cross once and for all.

Question 1: Do you believe that Jesus bore your sins and nailed them to the cross once and for all?

Scriptural References:

Colossians 2:14; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 3:18
Catholics also believe this. So we are in agreement here.

According to Scripture: Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was sufficient enough to atone for our sins.

Question 2: Do you believe that Jesus’ death on the cross was sufficient enough to pay the penalty for ALL of your sins?

Scriptural References:

Romans 3:25; Romans 5:8-9; Hebrews 7:27; 1 Peter 1:18-19; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10
We actually teach that Christ's sacrifice was "super-"sufficient in paying for our sins. So we are in agreement here as well.

According to Scripture: His suffering and death on the cross appeased God's wrath against sin.

Question 3: If you have to atone for your sins in purgatory then doesn't that deny the sufficiency of Jesus' atoning sacrifice on the cross?

Scriptural References:

Isaiah 53:4-6; Romans 3:24-26; Romans 11:6; Hebrews 2:17; Hebrews 9:26; Hebrews 10:10-18; 1 Peter 2:24
We are in agreement here as well about Jesus' suffering and death has appeased God's wrath against sin, in that eternal punishment is atoned for. But for our sake, God has allowed temporal punishment to remain as a means of disciplining and correcting us. Hebrews teaches us:

Heb 12: [5] And you have forgotten the consolation, which speaketh to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord; neither be thou wearied whilst thou art rebuked by him. [6] For whom the Lord loveth, he chastiseth; and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. [7] Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct? [8] But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons.

About the question you asked. I key point should be that those that are purged are already saved as you understand it.

According to Scripture: Our works of righteousness are like filthy rags to God and the sacrifice of the wicked is detestable to Him and an abomination to Him.

Question 4: How will you be able to atone for your sins in purgatory when your own works of righteousness are like filthy rags to God?

Scriptural References:

Isaiah 64:6; Proverbs 15:8; Proverbs 21:27
Catholics do not believe that we are saved by our works. We are not Pelagianists. We believe as you have professed that we are saved through the cross of Christ. Without this redemptive act by Christ we would have no chance for salvation. In fact the council of Trent session 6 on Justification points this out very well:


CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

CT06


According to Scripture: Before we believed and accepted Christ as our Savior, we are under the condemnation and under the wrath of God. We
were storing up wrath against us to be revealed when we stand before God on the Day of Judgment. God render to each of us according to what we have done.

Question 5: If you have to atone for your sins in purgatory, then wouldn't that mean you are still under condemnation and still a child of wrath?

Scriptural References:

John 3:18; John 3:36; Romans 1:18-32; Romans 2:5-6; Ephesians 2:3; Revelation 2:23; Revelation 20:12; Revelation 22:12
No.
 
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steve_bakr

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Erose said:
Whisper, I am game on responding to your post and hopefully it will clear up a few misconceptions you have about Catholics and their beliefs.

Catholics also believe this. So we are in agreement here.

We actually teach that Christ's sacrifice was "super-"sufficient in paying for our sins. So we are in agreement here as well.

We are in agreement here as well about Jesus' suffering and death has appeased God's wrath against sin, in that eternal punishment is atoned for. But for our sake, God has allowed temporal punishment to remain as a means of disciplining and correcting us. Hebrews teaches us:

Heb 12: [5] And you have forgotten the consolation, which speaketh to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord; neither be thou wearied whilst thou art rebuked by him. [6] For whom the Lord loveth, he chastiseth; and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. [7] Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct? [8] But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons.

About the question you asked. I key point should be that those that are purged are already saved as you understand it.

Catholics do not believe that we are saved by our works. We are not Pelagianists. We believe as you have professed that we are saved through the cross of Christ. Without this redemptive act by Christ we would have no chance for salvation. In fact the council of Trent session 6 on Justification points this out very well:

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

CT06

No.

Catholics and Protestants have more in common than many people realize.
 
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steve_bakr

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Gerry M. said:
Here we have THE ORIGINAL POST.


The Catholic Church teaches that our sufferings can be offered up 4 such things as:

the souls in Purgatory - that they may "loosed from their sins" (Macabees 12:46 ... or is it 2 Macc??)

The emphasis should go to:- The Catholic Church teaches: (Macabees is not a book that can be found in the KJV.)

Q. And what does the RCC teach? A. the souls in Purgatory - that they may "loosed from their sins"
the repentence of some sinner or other.

MY Q. If our sins are forgiven through the sacrifice that Christ made at Calvary, then how/why are they retained needing further redemption? (be it in purgatory or anywhere else)

expiation of our sins. Dictionary definition of EXPIATE:- Pay the penalty of, make amends for, (SIN).

MY Q. How can I (or anyone else) EXPIATE something that has already been EXPIATED ? and doesn't the above statement (IMPLY)nullify the finished work of CHRIST?


I think this is beautiful, knowing that our sufferings can do good 4 someone, a very great act of charity.

also our sufferings can be offered to expiate forgiven sins

MY Q. How can anyone perform a very great act of charity which was completed by CHRIST at HIS crucifiction?
Again, I have to ask, doesn't this elevate the sinner and nullify the FINISHED work of Christ?

It needs to be repeated NO man can offer EXPIATION for something that CHRIST has already EXPIATED.

it is not that we are not forgiven of our sins, its that we are cleansing ourselves of the damage caused by the sin... Sin leaves a stain on the soul..

Consider the above statement ie:

it is not that we are not forgiven of our sins, its that we are cleaning ourselves.

MY Q. If we have been washed in THE SHED BLOOD of JESUS CHRIST then the above statement (If it were true) would again NULLIFY the FINISHED WORK of CHRIST.

This is my response to the original post "What do noncatholics think etc.....
G.

Purgatory has to do with temporal punishment or purification. An example would be that if you robbed a bank and then repented of it, you are forgiven, but you still might suffer temporal punishment--ie., go to prison.
 
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Whisper of Hope

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Purgatory has to do with temporal punishment or purification. An example would be that if you robbed a bank and then repented of it, you are forgiven, but you still might suffer temporal punishment--ie., go to prison.

Isaiah 53:5-6:
"But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

As I have mentioned before (in my previous posts), according to Scripture, Jesus bore our sins, nailing them to the cross, once and for all (Colossians 2:14; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 3:18). How are we to atone for our sins in purgatory if our sins were nailed to the cross, once and for all? And according to Scripture, His sacrifice on the cross was sufficient enough to atone for our sins(Romans 3:25; Romans 5:8-9; Hebrews 7:27; 1 Peter 1:18-19; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10). If we have to atone for our sins in purgatory then wouldn't that deny the sufficiency of Jesus' atoning sacrifice on the cross? Isaiah 64:6 tells us that our own works of righteousness are like filthy rags to Him. Since our own works of righteousness are like filthy rags to God, then how is it possible for us to atone for any of our sins by our works of righteousness in purgatory?

Romans 5:6-9: "6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him."
 
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Standing Up

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Originally Posted by Whisper of Hope
According to Scripture: His suffering and death on the cross appeased God's wrath against sin.

Question 3: If you have to atone for your sins in purgatory then doesn't that deny the sufficiency of Jesus' atoning sacrifice on the cross?

Scriptural References:

Isaiah 53:4-6; Romans 3:24-26; Romans 11:6; Hebrews 2:17; Hebrews 9:26; Hebrews 10:10-18; 1 Peter 2:24
EROSE: "We are in agreement here as well about Jesus' suffering and death has appeased God's wrath against sin, in that eternal punishment is atoned for. But for our sake, God has allowed temporal punishment to remain as a means of disciplining and correcting us. Hebrews teaches us:

Heb 12: [5] And you have forgotten the consolation, which speaketh to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord; neither be thou wearied whilst thou art rebuked by him. [6] For whom the Lord loveth, he chastiseth; and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. [7] Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct? [8] But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons.

About the question you asked. I key point should be that those that are purged are already saved as you understand it. "

The point of purgatory is to further purge people of their sins. THey're saved, but not yet ready for heaven. They need to become more holy first.
 
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Whisper of Hope

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Originally Posted by Whisper of Hope
According to Scripture: His suffering and death on the cross appeased God's wrath against sin.

Question 3: If you have to atone for your sins in purgatory then doesn't that deny the sufficiency of Jesus' atoning sacrifice on the cross?

Scriptural References:

Isaiah 53:4-6; Romans 3:24-26; Romans 11:6; Hebrews 2:17; Hebrews 9:26; Hebrews 10:10-18; 1 Peter 2:24
EROSE: "We are in agreement here as well about Jesus' suffering and death has appeased God's wrath against sin, in that eternal punishment is atoned for. But for our sake, God has allowed temporal punishment to remain as a means of disciplining and correcting us. Hebrews teaches us:

Heb 12: [5] And you have forgotten the consolation, which speaketh to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord; neither be thou wearied whilst thou art rebuked by him. [6] For whom the Lord loveth, he chastiseth; and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. [7] Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct? [8] But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons.

About the question you asked. I key point should be that those that are purged are already saved as you understand it. "

The point of purgatory is to further purge people of their sins. They're saved, but not yet ready for heaven. They need to become more holy first.

Such a belief denies the sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross for the atoning of our sins.

Hebrews 7:26-27: "26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself."
 
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squint

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Such a belief denies the sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross for the atoning of our sins.

Hebrews 7:26-27: "26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself."

Hebrews 11 tells us of the state of the faithful who have passed:

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Are they now perfect? Are we?

Many like to jump up and down and whoo haa their current perfection.

Those who draw near to God in Christ come forward in this way:

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

God did not excuse or overlook the 'evil' we presently carry in our own conscience. It is and remains a fact for every believer on earth. All the whoppdeedoo in the world is not going to escape the fact.

There remains A FINAL PERFECTION for THE FULL ASSEMBLY when construction is complete. Many of these matters are 'typed' in the O.T.

Hebrews also tells us that Jesus Himself still makes INTERCESSIONs.

Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

The notion that the full perfection of any of us is complete now is not presented. These matters STILL remain:

Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Oh, you mean we have INFIRMITIES?! But but but Christ made us PERFECT here and now? lol.

Romans 8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

I expect that part of His Prayer for us is to GET REAL.

s
 
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Standing Up

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Hebrews 11 tells us of the state of the faithful who have passed:

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Are they now perfect? Are we?

-snip-

Who is the "they"? OT people. How could they be made perfect prior to Christ?
 
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steve_bakr

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Whisper of Hope said:
Isaiah 53:5-6: "But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

As I have mentioned before (in my previous posts), according to Scripture, Jesus bore our sins, nailing them to the cross, once and for all (Colossians 2:14; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 3:18). How are we to atone for our sins in purgatory if our sins were nailed to the cross, once and for all? And according to Scripture, His sacrifice on the cross was sufficient enough to atone for our sins(Romans 3:25; Romans 5:8-9; Hebrews 7:27; 1 Peter 1:18-19; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10). If we have to atone for our sins in purgatory then wouldn't that deny the sufficiency of Jesus' atoning sacrifice on the cross? Isaiah 64:6 tells us that our own works of righteousness are like filthy rags to Him. Since our own works of righteousness are like filthy rags to God, then how is it possible for us to atone for any of our sins by our works of righteousness in purgatory?

Romans 5:6-9: "6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him."

God purifies our sins; we do not purify ourselves. It is done through the grace of Christ, whether it be here on Earth or in Purgatory.
 
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squint

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It's how you introduced your thought and conclusion! Of course, it's relevant. May I suggest you speak again of purgatory without your introductory thought?

I cited a scripture. It says what it says. So you look only at 'they' and ignore 'us.' So what else is new? Personal imposition is always in play.

I can't address what another can't see or perceive.

s
 
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Albion

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God purifies our sins; we do not purify ourselves. It is done through the grace of Christ, whether it be here on Earth or in Purgatory.

We are purified when we are forgiven. To think that there's some secondary or additional process needed to "make us ready for heaven" is superfluous and, IMO, an indication of an unwillingness to completely believe that Jesus could have actually paid the price for our sins by his sacrifice on the cross, and thereby made us heirs of heaven.

Something deep down in many people is the feeling that we are just too unworthy of such a gift, such that various add-ons and qualifiers have been invented that make us think we earned our place in heaven. One of the biggest hurdles for even professed Christians to get over is the feeling that we have to do something, suffer something, or endure something in order to make God consider us to have performed sufficiently to prove our worth to him.
 
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