144,000

muzza21

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I was just wondering your perspective on the 144,000. We know they are virgins(unassociated with the religeous system) they come from each of the 12 tribes. They are the first fruits.

Do you think this number is literal? Will many of them be martyred during the tribulatin or will they have angelic protection? Any other thoughts?
 

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In the Messianic Biblical Science Fiction The Storm, the author has the main character, Ben Steinman - a cetacean biologist, as one of the 144,000 and goes through the process of his becoming one. It is quite amazing to consider, as is the rest of the story. The Storm is in the author's Messianic Biblical Science Fiction trilogy that includes THE STORM, VALLEY OF THE SHADOW and MACHINES OF LOVING GRACE. Everything That Stands is a satisfying read and challenging science fiction that is totally readable by those who have had to give up reading contemporary science fiction because of the defilement found therein. It is true science fiction, not fantasy disguised as science fiction!
 
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yedida

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If I had to put myself in a prophecy of end times box I'd have to go with the pre-wrath group. This belief holds that the major portion of what we call the great tribulation is satan's wrath against God's people and against God. He is doing all the horrible stuff - then comes the last big "to do", and this is God's wrath against all the evil that is in the world, those who are against Him and His ways. At this point, I believe that all of His are somehow taken to a place of protection because Rev 3:10 says that believers were not created to receive His wrath.
The 144,000 I do take as being a literal number (but I'm not dognatic about it, not dogmatic about any idea I've come to hold where the world to come is concerned). I do believe that during this time they (the 144,000) are somehow supernaturally protected.
I guess I believe this because it involves a specific group that will be living at this time. In all the other great persecutions, no believers were put out of the way of the disasters, I don't see anything different in this great tribulation except that it is the worse that has ever happened and it's the last that will happen.
Where is the "rapture" in all this? I see it as being the moment when God pours out his wrath and we are all placed together in that spot of supernatural protection, somewhere here on this earth. Maybe Petra, maybe somewhere else (but I think it's somewhere in God's land, Israel).
Like I said, I'm not stubbornly holding onto any of this as the only possibility, but it works with what scripture says. There is one author that I'm aware of that is pretty spot on, can't remember the title of his books but his name is Robert VanKampen: Robert Van Kampen and His Prewrath Audio Lectures Now Available for Download! | Prewrath Resource Institute (But must keep in mind that this author is NOT messianic.)

But I actually see most Messianics are very much like the Jewish people. We don't focus that much on what is to come. We don't close our eyes and pretend it doesn't matter, it does; and we want to know the signs when we see them, for sure. But our time is here and now. This is the time and place we have a say in the outcome - so live like today is IT, our last chance to get things right. We do that, and all the rest of the future will fall right into place, with us being exactly what we're supposed to be and doing exactly what we're supposed to be doing and in the place where Hashem has placed us to be and do.
 
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visionary

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I think for many of us, the identity of the 144,000 as literal, and will happen here in the near future if it isn't already happening. It is a common belief that if a large enough group of Jews kept Torah perfectly, the Messiah will come. Now imagine that born again...
 
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I see the 144 as literal people of Jewish descent. Not any church or a replacement. I think Hashem will become close to these people and nothing will turn their head away after that. It has never been Hashem's way to allow/cause great destruction without a great warning/witness. This may even be a grass-roots type thing without much publicity and may go un-noticed by many caught in secular and religous realms of understanding. Most want to believe these events have to happen within their lifetimes. I am open to the idea that we have at least a couple more generations before these events. This flies in the face of Messiah Yeshua's return in my lifetime type teachings. These 144 don't just magically appear. It takes time to make something like that happen. Time for them to come to know who they are and their purpose. They will be groomed by Hashem himself and they will know him and they will do his purpose--not necessarily fitting into what man understands that to be. These individuals and their lineages have been and are being preserved through many things that have happened in history. I would not expect CNN to report on this, lol. I don't know who they are, but if it is not their time now, it may be their parents or grandparents time now. When it is their time, no one will be able to convince them that Torah is unimportant-for they will know and be known and know that they are known. They will not need a religious organization to teach them as some have been taught today. They will be hated by the world and "religious authorities". But, they will be true to Hashem and his purpose. This is my opinion and I definitely may be wrong in this..
Temptinfates
 
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yedida

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That's pretty much my view. I don't think we're the ones who are going to see it all happen, but we are in the beginnings of it. I think the MJism movement is bringing it all to the possibility of beginning. We are prophecy in motion, isn't that so cool?
 
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yedida

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You've got a major point there Tal. The 144,000 could include gentile believers, for sure. There's much that only Hashem knows, and that's probably best. We humans have a tendency to think He needs our help (Abraham and Hagar???) so sometimes it's best that we don't know anything more than the skeleton outline of His plans.
 
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Temptinfates

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Hang on to your skivies. We got a ways to go. Too much yet to happen. The cake may be in the oven, but, it's not done yet. The world is sick and getting sicker, that is to continue. We are spectators and participants in it's unfolding all at the same time. Too many think it all has to happen in their lifetime. I allow for it not having to happen in my life-which is a meditation all in itself, lol. Either way, I'm ok with it.
Temptinfates
 
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visionary

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There is a point where the eguilibriam balance falls towards evil continually and finding righteousness in business, life, politics, and religion is gone. At that point the cake will be cooked and the prophecies will be fulfilled so rapidly, most won't even have time to protest that it is not a fulfillment of scripture before another one piles onto it. The progression will only be seen by the elect, because the order is found in His Word and they believed Him.
 
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muzza21

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I have thought long and hard before replying to previous posts from Yeshida and Temp because quite honestly, I'd never entertained the thought of this going on another generation or two.

I would like it actually if the pre trib rapturists were correct and we would be sucked up before the trouble starts. But we know that's not happening.

And the thought of defering to another time to do this thing would be ok with me too. I want to go through the tribulation as much as I want to see the Britney Spears movie. Which thinking about it, may be worse than the tribulation itself, hur hur.

But, reality is, many sources have done the math and come up with around the same conclusion. We are near the end of the 6,000 years as calculated by the biblical geneology God gave us as yet another way we could not be surprised.

I give you an article to consider by Dr. Bob Thiel in which he indicates that the creation was approximately 3983 B.C. Notice some of the math:

Do Genesis 5:3-29 and 7:11 show that 1,656 years transpired between the creation of Adam and the Flood of Noah's day? (Note: Genesis 5:3 shows that Adam was 130 when Seth was born. Add up the age of each patriarch at the birth of his son, plus the age of Noah at the time of the Flood)...

Do Genesis 11:10-32 show that 427 years passed between the Flood and the death of Terah, which was the time that Abram left Haran (cf. Acts 7:4)? Was Abram 75 years of age when he left Haran? Genesis 12:4...

How old was Abraham when God made the covenant of circumcision with him? Genesis 17:1-10. Had 24 years passed since he left Haran? (Note: A careful comparison of Genesis 12:4 with Genesis 17:1 will reveal Abraham's age at the time of the covenant)...

According to Galatians 3:16-17, how many years passed between the time of the covenant with Abraham and the Sinai covenant, which was the year of the Exodus? (cf. Exodus 12:40)...

How many years were there between the Exodus and the fourth year of King Solomon when the temple was begun? 1 Kings 6:1. (By using secular records most scholars date the fourth year of Solomon to approximately 966 BC)...

If you add the numbers (1,656 + 427 + 24 + 430 + 480 + 966) what would have been the approximate year bc of Adam's creation?

Would this not prove that 6,000 years will soon have elapsed?

Here is some of the biblical geneaology for the first portion from Genesis 5 (last verse from Genesis 7):

3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.
6 Seth lived one hundred and five years, and begot Enosh.
9 Enosh lived ninety years, and begot Cainan.
12 Cainan lived seventy years, and begot Mahalalel.
15 Mahalalel lived sixty-five years, and begot Jared.
18 Jared lived one hundred and sixty-two years, and begot Enoch.
21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methuselah.
25 Methuselah lived one hundred and eighty-seven years, and begot Lamech. 26
28 Lamech lived one hundred and eighty-two years, and had a son. 29 And he called his name Noah...
7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. NKJV.

Added up, this equals 1656 years. Now here is the next portion from Genesis 11:

10 This is the genealogy of Shem: Shem was one hundred years old, and begot Arphaxad two years after the flood.
12 Arphaxad lived thirty-five years, and begot Salah.
14 Salah lived thirty years, and begot Eber.
16 Eber lived thirty-four years, and begot Peleg.
18 Peleg lived thirty years, and begot Reu.
20 Reu lived thirty-two years, and begot Serug.
22 Serug lived thirty years, and begot Nahor.
24 Nahor lived twenty-nine years, and begot Terah.
26 Now Terah lived seventy years, and begot Abram, Nahor, and Haran.
32 So the days of Terah were two hundred and five years, and Terah died in Haran. NKJV
Added up, this equals 427 years (2+35+30+34+30+32+30+29+205=427). The age of Terah when Abraham was born has also been debated (see next section), though is not part of the above calculation.

Galatians 3:17 shows 430 years; while 1 Kings 6:1 shows 480 years from the exodus from Egypt to the fourth year of Solomon's reign.

Therefore, if we add up 1,656 + 427 + 24 + 430 + 480 + 966, this suggests the creation of Adam was around 3983 BC. Now because that years of life are not exact (few people are born and die on the precisely same calendar date--hence there could possibly be 10 additional years), this could be off somewhat--but it does give a biblical indication of when the end is coming.

Now, it is partially dependent upon an estimate of scholars pointing to a 966 B.C. temple dedication—as the work of other scholars indicates that the separation of the Israel from Judah was possibly 931 B.C. (see Thiele E. The Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings. Kregel Publications version, 1994, p. 80)—and this separation happened shortly after (1 Kings 11:43; 12:1-20) Solomon’s 40 year reign (1 Kings 11:42), then it would seem that one less year could be indicated (966+4-40=930 B.C. vs. 931 B.C.)--though if there was a co-regency of 3-4 year, it would be 2-3 years later than 3983.

And while 966 is estimated, there are several who began Solomon's reign in 970, hence would come up with a 966 date four years later. Here are four additional references:

Working back from these dates and the biblical references to the reigns of the kings of Israel and Judah (78 years from the death of Ahab in 853/852 BC) the Kingdom of Solomon was divided in 931/930 BC, at the ascension of Rehoboam to the throne of Israel following the death of Solomon. Since Solomon reigned forty years (v. 42), he must have ascended the throne in 971/970 BC (Long, Jesse. 1 & 2 Kings: 1 and 2 Kings. College Press, 2002, p. 156)

SOLOMON (Reigned c. 970-c. 932 Bc) (Canning, John. 100 Great Kings, Queens, and Rulers of the World. Taplinger Pub. Co., 1967, p. 52)

SOLOMON THE KING Solomon's reign was long, lasting forty years (970-931) as had his father's before him (Leon James Wood & David O'Brien. A Survey of Israel's History. Zondervan, 1986, p. 253).

Solomon 40 C. 970-931 BCE (Israel Finkelstein & Neil Asher Silberman. David and Solomon: In Search of the Bible's Sacred Kings and the Roots of the Western Tradition. Simon and Schuster, 2007, p. 20).

But while there is some controversy, let’s look at the 3983 date (while understanding instead it may be slightly off).

It is now 2012 A.D., so adding that + 3983 adds up to 5995--but because there was no year zero (for the transition between B.C. and A.D.), this make it 5994. Thus, the 6000 years may be up in about 6-7 years (and the tribulation would begin before that).

So while 2018 is one calculation of the end of the 6000 years, it is a little premature. It is likely that it may be one or more years later. Perhaps I should mention that LCG's Dr. Meredith, while discussing the 2018 calculation date said that he thought that date was a bit early and because of various factors, like co-regencies of the kings in the Bible, it was likely to be two to ten years past then (Meredith R. What is just ahead for you? LCG Sermon, Charlotte, NC, August 27, 2011).

And the Great Tribulation may begin 3 1/2 years before then--thus the Great Tribulation may begin around 2016-2019--I do not believe that it will be before 2016 (for a more detailed explanation, please see Can the Great Tribulation Begin in 2011, 2012, or 2013?). Because of the year long, "day of the Lord" it may be 2019 or because of overlapping double-counts of kingly reigns, perhaps up to a decade or so later, like 202x.

It is clear that, according to a variety of sources, but mainly the Bible, the 6000 years will be up in the 21st century.
 
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visionary

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I agree... we are the last generation

Your example is just the tip of the iceberg in the many ways people can see that we are in the end times.

Here are others

Mark Blitz's eclipses coming 2014-2015
One generation from 1948 [70 years] =2018
The multitude of unexplained death of the animals both in and out of the water on earth
The multitude of earthquakes in Diverse places
Volcanic eruptions increasing.
Increase of crimes in religion, politics, business, relationships, and everywhere you look without regard to Judgement Day before God
The surrounding armies gathering around Israel over Jerusalem
The blinders coming off, Orthodox Rabbi speaks in the nicest terms yet regarding Yeshua
The strange weather around the world
The solar storms and the strange sounds heard around the world -trumpets some say

And the list goes on...
 
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muzza21

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Those animal deaths sure are chilling. Over one hundred dolphin beached dead just recently. Birds falling from the sky. And I really agree with you about the tipping factor. Once the balance goes over sharply towards evil continually, things will happen bing, bing, bing. That's going to be very scary for a whole lot of people, but if we have it right, like we should have it right, we will be standing completely separate. That place is under His wings. Amen.
 
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visionary

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Those animal deaths sure are chilling. Over one hundred dolphin beached dead just recently. Birds falling from the sky. And I really agree with you about the tipping factor. Once the balance goes over sharply towards evil continually, things will happen bing, bing, bing. That's going to be very scary for a whole lot of people, but if we have it right, like we should have it right, we will be standing completely separate. That place is under His wings. Amen.
It is like a roller coaster ride where we have been doing the hard steady climb to the top and we are right on that moment when you know that all the rest is a very rapid downhill run with all the tilts, twirls, and loopy loops towards home.
 
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I have thought long and hard before replying to previous posts from Yeshida and Temp because quite honestly, I'd never entertained the thought of this going on another generation or two.

I would like it actually if the pre trib rapturists were correct and we would be sucked up before the trouble starts. But we know that's not happening.

And the thought of defering to another time to do this thing would be ok with me too. I want to go through the tribulation as much as I want to see the Britney Spears movie. Which thinking about it, may be worse than the tribulation itself, hur hur.

But, reality is, many sources have done the math and come up with around the same conclusion. We are near the end of the 6,000 years as calculated by the biblical geneology God gave us as yet another way we could not be surprised.

I give you an article to consider by Dr. Bob Thiel in which he indicates that the creation was approximately 3983 B.C. Notice some of the math:

Do Genesis 5:3-29 and 7:11 show that 1,656 years transpired between the creation of Adam and the Flood of Noah's day? (Note: Genesis 5:3 shows that Adam was 130 when Seth was born. Add up the age of each patriarch at the birth of his son, plus the age of Noah at the time of the Flood)...

Do Genesis 11:10-32 show that 427 years passed between the Flood and the death of Terah, which was the time that Abram left Haran (cf. Acts 7:4)? Was Abram 75 years of age when he left Haran? Genesis 12:4...

How old was Abraham when God made the covenant of circumcision with him? Genesis 17:1-10. Had 24 years passed since he left Haran? (Note: A careful comparison of Genesis 12:4 with Genesis 17:1 will reveal Abraham's age at the time of the covenant)...

According to Galatians 3:16-17, how many years passed between the time of the covenant with Abraham and the Sinai covenant, which was the year of the Exodus? (cf. Exodus 12:40)...

How many years were there between the Exodus and the fourth year of King Solomon when the temple was begun? 1 Kings 6:1. (By using secular records most scholars date the fourth year of Solomon to approximately 966 BC)...

If you add the numbers (1,656 + 427 + 24 + 430 + 480 + 966) what would have been the approximate year bc of Adam's creation?

Would this not prove that 6,000 years will soon have elapsed?

Here is some of the biblical geneaology for the first portion from Genesis 5 (last verse from Genesis 7):

3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.
6 Seth lived one hundred and five years, and begot Enosh.
9 Enosh lived ninety years, and begot Cainan.
12 Cainan lived seventy years, and begot Mahalalel.
15 Mahalalel lived sixty-five years, and begot Jared.
18 Jared lived one hundred and sixty-two years, and begot Enoch.
21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methuselah.
25 Methuselah lived one hundred and eighty-seven years, and begot Lamech. 26
28 Lamech lived one hundred and eighty-two years, and had a son. 29 And he called his name Noah...
7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. NKJV.

Added up, this equals 1656 years. Now here is the next portion from Genesis 11:

10 This is the genealogy of Shem: Shem was one hundred years old, and begot Arphaxad two years after the flood.
12 Arphaxad lived thirty-five years, and begot Salah.
14 Salah lived thirty years, and begot Eber.
16 Eber lived thirty-four years, and begot Peleg.
18 Peleg lived thirty years, and begot Reu.
20 Reu lived thirty-two years, and begot Serug.
22 Serug lived thirty years, and begot Nahor.
24 Nahor lived twenty-nine years, and begot Terah.
26 Now Terah lived seventy years, and begot Abram, Nahor, and Haran.
32 So the days of Terah were two hundred and five years, and Terah died in Haran. NKJV
Added up, this equals 427 years (2+35+30+34+30+32+30+29+205=427). The age of Terah when Abraham was born has also been debated (see next section), though is not part of the above calculation.

Galatians 3:17 shows 430 years; while 1 Kings 6:1 shows 480 years from the exodus from Egypt to the fourth year of Solomon's reign.

Therefore, if we add up 1,656 + 427 + 24 + 430 + 480 + 966, this suggests the creation of Adam was around 3983 BC. Now because that years of life are not exact (few people are born and die on the precisely same calendar date--hence there could possibly be 10 additional years), this could be off somewhat--but it does give a biblical indication of when the end is coming.

Now, it is partially dependent upon an estimate of scholars pointing to a 966 B.C. temple dedication—as the work of other scholars indicates that the separation of the Israel from Judah was possibly 931 B.C. (see Thiele E. The Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings. Kregel Publications version, 1994, p. 80)—and this separation happened shortly after (1 Kings 11:43; 12:1-20) Solomon’s 40 year reign (1 Kings 11:42), then it would seem that one less year could be indicated (966+4-40=930 B.C. vs. 931 B.C.)--though if there was a co-regency of 3-4 year, it would be 2-3 years later than 3983.

And while 966 is estimated, there are several who began Solomon's reign in 970, hence would come up with a 966 date four years later. Here are four additional references:

Working back from these dates and the biblical references to the reigns of the kings of Israel and Judah (78 years from the death of Ahab in 853/852 BC) the Kingdom of Solomon was divided in 931/930 BC, at the ascension of Rehoboam to the throne of Israel following the death of Solomon. Since Solomon reigned forty years (v. 42), he must have ascended the throne in 971/970 BC (Long, Jesse. 1 & 2 Kings: 1 and 2 Kings. College Press, 2002, p. 156)

SOLOMON (Reigned c. 970-c. 932 Bc) (Canning, John. 100 Great Kings, Queens, and Rulers of the World. Taplinger Pub. Co., 1967, p. 52)

SOLOMON THE KING Solomon's reign was long, lasting forty years (970-931) as had his father's before him (Leon James Wood & David O'Brien. A Survey of Israel's History. Zondervan, 1986, p. 253).

Solomon 40 C. 970-931 BCE (Israel Finkelstein & Neil Asher Silberman. David and Solomon: In Search of the Bible's Sacred Kings and the Roots of the Western Tradition. Simon and Schuster, 2007, p. 20).

But while there is some controversy, let’s look at the 3983 date (while understanding instead it may be slightly off).

It is now 2012 A.D., so adding that + 3983 adds up to 5995--but because there was no year zero (for the transition between B.C. and A.D.), this make it 5994. Thus, the 6000 years may be up in about 6-7 years (and the tribulation would begin before that).

So while 2018 is one calculation of the end of the 6000 years, it is a little premature. It is likely that it may be one or more years later. Perhaps I should mention that LCG's Dr. Meredith, while discussing the 2018 calculation date said that he thought that date was a bit early and because of various factors, like co-regencies of the kings in the Bible, it was likely to be two to ten years past then (Meredith R. What is just ahead for you? LCG Sermon, Charlotte, NC, August 27, 2011).

And the Great Tribulation may begin 3 1/2 years before then--thus the Great Tribulation may begin around 2016-2019--I do not believe that it will be before 2016 (for a more detailed explanation, please see Can the Great Tribulation Begin in 2011, 2012, or 2013?). Because of the year long, "day of the Lord" it may be 2019 or because of overlapping double-counts of kingly reigns, perhaps up to a decade or so later, like 202x.

It is clear that, according to a variety of sources, but mainly the Bible, the 6000 years will be up in the 21st century.

I didn't say I thought 2 or 3 generations from now. I just mention the fact that I don't think "we'll" see it all is because the majority of the "we" here in MJ are on the older side. We may very well enter into the first 3 1/2 years. But sadly, people like me, without miraculous healing ain't gonna be able to physically survive the latter half - thus "we" probably won't be here to see it all happening. I completely think our children are going to see it all.
And like I said, "we", all of us right now today are prophecy in motion. And it's ever sooooo cool!!
 
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