Opinions on end times

Hi Eric H,

After reading your post what came to mind were some of the 'faith movement' ministries we see on TV. I do not know if that is what you are reffering to, but I believe it could be. After watching for quite a few years, I began to question some of the teachings I was listening to. I do not watch anymore because I believe a false gospel is being preached.


Just a few thoughts,


God Bless,
Roberta

I beileve that a lot of Christians have already began to be decieved. We are all about trying to fill good, or getting "drunk" in the spirit, but what about witnessing to the lost and dying world? We have become to involved in ourlseves that we have stopped caring about those around us. I believe that there is no answer to our questions of the end times, just like there are no answers to the questions we have of how this all began, only when God allows us to see that will we truly know everything. I don't understand why we can't just have the faith of a child and believe that Jesus is the way the truth and the life, without him, man is nothing. If we would we would only have that faith we wouldn't have to question who, what, and why? But we would just believe. I think that is what we must do.

Hi RayNay714--

Hi Roberta--

Hi Eric--

I agree. I believe the "falling away" is in high gear. I've heard that there are groups that believe that the only return of the Lord that we will get is when he comes to indwell them with power and they will then take over the world--bringing in God's kingdom.

Does anyone watch Hal Lindsey on TBN? If so, have you ever noticed that before the program they put on a "warning" about the show"? I believe they do this because alot of the people in the organization are part of these groups that believe that we don't need the physical return of Our Lord that Hal teaches.

Love,

Terri

REV 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

Hi Eric; I would like to offer an answer to your questions. You asked, how will the world be decieved by the antichrist, and why would everyone stand in line to get their hand stamped and recieve his mark? You also asked why the churches won't be decieved by this man.
I have not seen the left behind series, or watched any television shows about the 'antichrist"; if it is based on the book of revelation, read the last line that was written. It may change your point of view.
The stamp you asked of won't happen that way. The "mark" that will decieve many, even the elect, is not physical. It won't be a tatoo or some computer chip, or sequence of numbers. It is my belief that this mark, is spiritual. Chapter 13 says; And he (the beast) causeth all; both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to recieve a mark in their right hand or in their forehead.
Notice that it says IN. Go to the book of Deuteronomy, chapter 6 speaks of keeping Gods commandments; And thou shall each them dilligently unto the children, and thou shall talk of them when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
And thou shall bind (seal) them for a SIGN upon thy hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thy eyes. (forehead)
Revelation tells us to use wisdom concerning this; because it will not be an obvious sign. We are also told to count the number of the beast. It is the number of a man. His number is six hundred, threescore and six.
Many things have been written on this subject. I do not relate this as being numbers of a particular name, that adds up to 666, but rather that man who is identified as being antichrist (remember we are told MANY antichrists are in the world) signify the number six. The seventh day is Gods day; perhaps because man does not recognize the seventh (the sabbath), and does not keep the commandments, he is seen this way, by God.
In the book of Luke, Jesus writes; The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thy eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light. But when thine eye is evil, thy whole body is full of darkness.
Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee, not be full of darkness.
If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.
Remember the ten virgins, who are prepared to meet the bridegroom (Jesus); five were wise, having their lamps filled with oil, five were foolish, and came late. When the door was closed, they called on the Lord, but he answered them saying, I know you not.
We are told in Revelation, that the angels were sent forth to SEAL the foreheads of those who did not recieve the mark of the beast, or worship the number of his name.
The word to remember is "worship"; it means to idolize, to adore, to look highly upon. This "man" the antichrist, will appear to be Godly, he will probably be holding a bible, charming millions, when he arrives. So the worshiping will not be forced, but done willingly.
Gods chosen are called children of light.
Perhaps this is how we are seen by the angels.
Hope this helped.
Wildfire

I agree also, that the "antichrist" will not be one man; the revelation speaks of the beast and of the false prophet working together. Daniel explains this antichrist as being a God of arms (military), who gains through flattery, who becomes popular among a small people, and who has dealings with a strange God. There are similarities between the book of Revelation and the book of Daniel, I am still trying to sort them all out.

Brother...

You are no heretic. What you say is something that ALL those who believe should consider. "Even the very elect.." This day, there are millions of people who are being deceived, those who are blind as to what is REALLY going on around them. The world is a "stage" for a HUGE lie that has been unfolding for quite some time now. It amazes me how people underestimate the deceiving powers of the adversary.

Eric, if you would like to learn more about the great "deception", let me know. Remember this though: "With much wisdom comes much sorrow".

Ya'hushua be with you.

Originally posted by NoahsRaven
You are no heretic. What you say is something that ALL those who believe should consider. "Even the very elect.." This day, there are millions of people who are being deceived, those who are blind as to what is REALLY going on around them. The world is a "stage" for a HUGE lie that has been unfolding for quite some time now. It amazes me how people underestimate the deceiving powers of the adversary.

Click to expand...

Exactly Satan is very powerful, and he knows exactly what he is doing <><

There have been many opioions on the "end of time" over the last 2000 years. Every generation believes that they live in the "end time." Does the bible speak of the "end of time," or does it speak of the "time of the end?" There is a great difference.


The majority of people who speak of the "end of time" are those under the umbrella of "premillennialism."

The word “millennium” comes from two Latin words, which means “a thousand years.” Revelation 20:3-5 mentions a thousand years in which the Devil is completely bound and the saints reign with Christ. How are these thousand years related to the 2nd coming of Christ? The “premillennialist” thinks the 2nd coming is to take place before (pre) the thousand years, while the “postmillennialist” thinks the 2nd coming occurs after (post) the thousand years. The “amillennialist” holds the 2nd coming has nothing to do with the thousand years.


___________________________________________________--


The premillennialist are made up of many groups and names. Today, the brand of premillennialism that is popular is “dispensational” premillennialism. It is popularized by Hal Lindsey’s “LATE GREAT PLANET EARTH” and “THERE IS A NEW WORLD COMING.” John Walvoords “MILLENNIAL KINGDOM” is a definite work presenting dispensational viewpoints. Under the “umbrella” of premillennialism are groups like the Jehovah Witnesses, Pentecostals, most Baptists, 99% of Sabbath-keepers like the Seventh-Day Adventists, Davidians (like David Karesh), their names are legion.







Quote from premillennialist organization from year 1886 “the outward evidences are that the marshalling of the hosts for the battle of the great day of God Almighty is in progress while the skirmishing is commencing.” Watchtower Reprints, I, Jan. 1866, page 817


Quote from premillennialist organization, year 1904, “according to our expectations the stress of thegreat time of trouble will be upon us soon, somewhere between 1910 and 1912 ---culminating…October, 1914.” C.T. Russell, THE NEW CREATION, page 579


Quote from premillennialist organization, year 1914, “there is absolutely no ground for Bible students to question that the sonsummation of this Gospel age is now even at the door, and that it will end as the scriptures foretold, in a great time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation.” Watchtower Reprint, VI, May 1, 1914, page 5450


Quote from premillennialist organization, year 1915, “the Battle of Armageddon, to which this war is leading, will be a great contest between right and wrong, and will signify the complete and everlasting overthrow of the wrong and the permanent establishment of Messiah’s righteous kingdom for the blessing of the world. . .” Watchtower Reprints, VI, April 1, 1915, page 5659

Quote from premillennialist organization, year 1918, “Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particulary those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection.” MILLIONS LIVING WILL NEVER DIE, page 89

Quote from premillennialist organization, year 1918 “the present war I Europe is the beginning of the Armageddon of the Scriptures.” C.T. Russell. PASTOR RUSSELL’S SERMONS, page 676

Quote from premillennialist organization, year 1920, “…the old order of things, the old world, is ending and is therefore passing away. . . 1925 shall mark the resurrection of the faithfull worthies…” GOLDEN AGE OF THE KINGDOM, 1920.

Quote from premillennialist organization, year 1922, “the date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the scriptures than 1914.” WATCHTOWER, 9/1/22, page 262

Quote from premillennialist organization, YEAR 1925, “it is expected that Satan will try to inject into the minds of the consecrated the thought that 1925 should see an end to the work.”
WATCHTOWER, 9/1/25


Quote from premillennialist organization, year 1931, “His day of vengeance is here, and Armageddon is at hand and certain fall upon Christendom, and that within an early date. Jehovah’s judgement is upon Christand must be shortly executed.” J. F. Rutherford, VINDICATION, I., page 147

Quote from premillennialist organization, YEAR 1939, “. . .at the timefor the battle of the great day of God Almighty is ver near. . .” “. . .the diaster of Armagedoon is just ahead.” J.F. Rutherford,
SALVATION, pages 310, 361

Quote from premillennial news article, “Not in the lifetime of most men has there been so much grave and deep aprehension; never has the future seemed so incalcuable as the present time. The domestic economic situation is in chaos. Our dollar is weak throughout the world. The political cauldron seethes and bubbles with uncertainty. Russia hangs, as usual, like a cloud, dark and silent, upon the horizon. It is a solemn moment. Of our troubles, no man can see the end. Year 1990 NO!, 1980 NO!………Harper’s Weekly, October, 1857!!!

Hal Lindsey, Late Great Planet Earth, 1971 copy, Lakeland publication, London, pages 53,54
Lindsey was very sure that in 1981 the tribulation would begin – nuclear wars, famines, droughts, pollution on a worldwide scale, genocide, incredible heatwaves, worldwide epidemics of horrible ulcers, earthquakes of greater than continental dimensions; these and other horrors are just up
ahead for the earth.



Premillenialists teach that the Levitical priesthood is going to be restored in the millennium. Take a look at Charles L. feinberg – he assures us that the Levitical priesthood is coming back, invested in the Zadokites. He gets this from Ezek 44:15-27. John walvoord in his “The Millenniald Kingdom”, pages 310-315, is very plain in telling us that the Aaronic priesthood is coming back.

Arno C. Gaebelein, a premillennialist, wrote “THE PROPHET EZEKIEL, pages 270-273, 317ff, plainly tells us: “The earthly priesthood as it once was is re-established and vested in the sons of Zdok. . . all this will be fulfilled and done when this new and true worship is institued in the coming age. . . when the Lord has restored Israel to this great place of worship stands, priestly ministrations will be resumed.”

Charles Ryrie, pages 127-130, defends the dispensational premillennial view that sacrifices for sin are coming back. The Scofield Bible, page 890, maintains these bloody sacrifices are coming back. Arno Gaebelein, pages 307-313 insists we accept the sacrifices literally or do “violence to the Word of God.”

Premillennialists believe that circumcision will be restored as essential to communion with God. They get this from Ezek 44:6,7 & 9. Hal Lindsey’s LATE GREAT PLANET EARTH, page 177, speaks of these fulfillments and that even people will be excluded from communion with God at His sanctuary.(He uses Zech 14:21)

John Walvoord, THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM, pages 208-220, assures us that the “new covenant” is only for Israel and relates to the Millennium and not to this age. By the way, Lindsey's was a student of John Walvoord at Dallas Theological Siminary.

For those interested in seeing more of this stuff on predictions of the past, go to:

http://www.geocities.com/athens/acropolis/5766/misprophecy.html

I do not know this individual that created this site, but it is pretty good.

Your servant in Messiah, Jesus
charlesj

Hey,
you sure have a great discussion out there. I think that is something that keep all of us pondering. One word, though, I can be sure, when end times come, people will proably not believe that they are in the end times. That is why, people can be deceived. However, I don't think Satan is that powerful as to control us, christians. I believe he can only control those that don't believe in the messiah.
You know, I believe there will come a time when Christians will be persecuted by the world. Looking at the growing hatred for Christians, this is very likely. There will come a time when Christians will be persecuted and many will "fall away from the faith." A Christiam-intolerance world might be established. Of course, this is just my opinion. It might not be right!

I agree with what rpgal is saying; can you imagine a world where church bombings is normal, the bible is banned from the library and bookstores out of a "safety" for Americans. Is that too unimaginable? Isn't it mentioned in the bible that some will thirst for the word of God (during the end times) and will not be able to find him? Are we slowly moving into those times?
(good topic)

wildfire:
Good morning. Thanks for your imput, you and rpggal. I've seen this type of discussion now for many years (over 30) and it's always been some type of "hype" that is taking place 'now.' Every generation thinks and believes they are the generation "the end of time" prophecies are speaking of. The problems with these thoughts, as I see it, are these prophecies speaking of the "end of time," or the "time of the end?"
The premillennialist look at the bible prophecies literally and thinks that the prophecy must have a literal fulfillment. (Take a look at what I wrote on “literal or spiritual” on page 5 of this forum).
The premillennial doctrine(s) are remembered by rote memory. These doctrines are not taught in the Bible. When I was young in the Lord, I was taught the premillennial doctrines and even believed them until one day, a young lady asked me, “Where does it say that in the Bible?” That was thirty years ago.
Years ago, when I believed these doctrines, I would “read into” (eisgesis) the text of the prophecy
instead of “read out of” (exegete). Today, there are millions “reading into” the texts due to false teachings and following them. The majority of religious people, such as I’ve mentioned in my earlier post, teach and believe the premillennial doctrines.
Facts of history show these doctrines to be false. I’ve searched from Rome to Waco and cannot see anything good that has come out of this false teaching. Take the group in Waco for example,
David Karesh, a premillennialist, was teaching that they were in the time of the 5th seal and that
period of time applied to him and his group. This wasn’t the only error that David taught, but it ruled the lives of his group. What a tragedy.

Most of the time you see “the last days,” the “last hour,” “the time of the end,” etc., it is speaking
of the time of the end of the Jewish economy in 70 A.D. All the books of the New Testament were written before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and all pointed to the end of the Jewish economy. Even the Book of Revelation was written around 66 A.D.
Some have said that the apostle John doesn’t mention the Olivet Discourse (Mount of Olives) as do the synoptic gospels do, but if you think about it, John does! He wrote the whole book of Revelation which is nothing more than an expansion of Matthew 24 in foretelling the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
Revelation begins and ends with the same statement, “…this MUST take place shortly.” (Rev 1:1 & 22:6). Also, at the beginning and end, “…the TIME IS at hand.” (Rev 1:3 & 22:10) In between the beginning and end of the vision, which by the way, was not to be sealed for the time is at hand.(Rev 22:10). The prophet Daniel was given a prophecy that wasn’t fulfilled until around 430 years and he was told “seal it up for the time is many days.” Here in Revelation John is told NOT to seal the words of this prophecy up.
In Rev 21:9,10 you find John being shown the Bride of the Lamb. Who is the Lamb? Everyone knows that this is Jesus. Then who is the Bride? Everyone will answer, “the Church!” They are correct. But what is John shown? The New Jerusalem COMING DOWN from heaven. Hmmmmm. Could it be that the New Jerusalem, the city of God, is the Church? Could it be that those who are “born again” enter into a city “made without hands?” (Heb 12:22 & Gal 4:31) Could it be that Abraham, who had the gospel preached to him(Gal 1:8), could see this city “afar off.”
Could this city be here now? …and those outside the gates of this city are dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and whoever loveth and maketh a lie.(Rev 22:15).
Could it be that God identifies the rulers of the Roman Empire (Rev 13; 17) and also tells you this book (The Book of Revelation) was written when the temple was still standing (Rev 11). (Doesn’t this tell you that the book was written BEFORE 70 A.D.?)


I’ve heard most of the arguments from the premills for over the last 30 years. I don’t buy them. You can shoot holes in the premill theory very easy.

Your servant in Messiah, Jesus,
Charlesj
cjemeyson@satx.rr.com

...take a look at this site. It lists a lot of premill prophecies from around 156 A.D. and shows them to fail. Agian, I don't know this person other than he lives in Alaska.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5766/prophecies.html

charlesj wrote:The ?amillennialist? holds the 2nd coming has nothing to do with the thousand years.

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Not quite accurate. The amillennialist position teaches that the millennial reign (going on now) is ended with Christ's return.

Hi Folks, I'm new here, First post.

From what I've read so far, I must come down alongside Charlesj.

I am in complete agreement with His asessment.

Contrary to other opinions I have sen expressed by well meaning, but misguided, Christians on this board, the fact is that the Church will not fail.

There are more Chirstians today than there were yesterday, and there will be more tomorrow than there are today.

The Church is, was, and ever shall be:

"Like a mustard seed that becomes the greatest of trees, covering the garden " (Matt 13:31-32)

"Like the little trickle that becomes the waters that heal the whole earth"(Ezek. 47, Revelation 22)

That has been the unbroken history of the Church and will continue to be Her legacy as prophesied, "into the ages, world WITHOUT end, Amen." (Eph. 3:21)

The Last days are behind us. They were the last days of the Jewish Economy, the Last Days of the Old Covenant.

We are today living "Beyond the end times" in the Glorious victory of Jesus Christ.

Peace in the reigning Lord,
P70

hey P70, welcome to the discussion, glad you are comfortable to participate... enjoy the forums and keep posting. this community will be a wonderful blessing to you as it has to me!
take care,

<i>People talk about a man becoming ruler of the entire earth and instituting a one world religion. If even the elect could be deceived, if possible, why do so many believe the people of the world will stand in line to get 666 stamped on the foreheads or hands? If any of this begins wouldn't even the casual observer say "hey, doesn't the Bible say something about this?" How many non-believers have seen movies about the end from Left Behind to the Omen? </i>

I believe that in the near future people will begin accepting implanted chips that will help insure safety, security, and convenience. I believe the chips may become a way of life prior to the beast appearing. And I believe that at some point everyone will be required to worship the beast just as Revelation says. That they will be required to bow down to... or repeat a phrase... or sign a statement or whatever... acknowledging the beast as god.

The pressure will be enormous. Sure people will recognize it as being from revelation. But leaders in "the church" will be saying... it's okay.. God knows your heart..... it's your heart that matters.... not what you say or do...... God wants you to be able to provide for and protect your family.... it's for the children..... God expects you to feed your family..... God will know you are just doing it to survive .... it doesn't really mean anything.....it will be okay.... and on and on. And given the alternative of watching their family suffer, few will not compromise themselves.

Worshiping the beast and taking his mark will not be done by accident. It will be a conscious decision. A decision between eating and not eating. Between providing for a family and watching it suffer. It will not be a pretty time.

In keeping with one of the other posters.... I believe that all true christians are marked right now. We have been marked by the Holy Spirit as one of His. A spiritual mark, but a mark none the less. The beast will be immitating God. The beast doesn't have the power to mark us spiritually. The beast is of this world, and his mark will be of this world. And Revelation tells us what God will do to those who accept the mark of the beast and worship him.

>>People talk about a man becoming ruler of the entire earth and instituting a one world religion.

There is a simple solution to this, do not pay any attention to what people are talking about. You post is filled with the very thing your worried about.

For me, I learned that it is best to ignore what people say about the Bible. If someone helps me to understand a scripture, that is wonderful, but I know it is really the Holy Spirit of God helping me to understand that passage.

Otherwise, do not pay any attention to what people say about the Bible. Just read it yourself and be lead by the Holy Spirit of God. The scriptures are clear that we will need no man to teach us about God.

Hebrews 8:11
None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

I am esp. concerned with end time teaching. I just go by what God shows me and beyond that I just keep seeking to have a better understanding of the Bible. Line by line, passgage by passage. Thanks, JohnR7

why do so many believe the people of the world will stand in line to get 666 stamped on the foreheads or hands?

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The mark of the Beast may not be a literal "666," that's a number cryptogram for the name of the Beast. The Bible keeps the actual name of the Beast-man secret, so that no one will kill him before it is time.

The people left in the world by the time the mark is distributed will be so wicked that they will gladly side up with satan and take the mark, knowing that it was counter to God. Remember, these are not people being tricked into taking a mark, they are voluntarily lining up to be identified with the antichirst. They want to reject God, they want everyone to know that they are not Christians. No one is tricked into taking it against their will, no matter how the Left Behind series tells it.

There are people even today who are that wicked and hateful of Christ. I know more than one person who has a 666 tattoo, and is proud of it. By the time the mark of the Beast comes around, everyone will either be a Christian or a satanist. There won't be any fence-sitters by then.