Who goes to hell?

WillieH · Feb 11, 2012

jrog said:
hey willie, just read your post, listen, i as i explained to your before, consider myself a fledgling christian, well reread my post on your home site,,,i dont need to repeat it....i am taking my time this time around, i vowed to myself and to the Holyspirit, that i would let Him guide me to the truth....and rest assured He is working on me...though at times im kicking and screaming....

i have said many of the exact same things you write above in my own posts....i totally understand where your coming from....with many of your points your preaching to the choir...i came from a strict catholic upbringing brother....so for me to be here today, having rejected much of the catholic doctrine, i now attend a non denominational church, and subscribe to no 'religion", i will not let anyone convince me of anything...to do so i would be breaking my commitment to myself and God.

i have rejected the doctrine of eternal hell, that was a big step itself to do, and i am still researching and trying to figure everything out on this subject....i have a long way to go....i know....for i believe anyone who thinks they have it all figured out is fooling themselves...i know as a christian i will never stop learning...i believe that of all christians.

i will certainly call on you willie, when im confused or need clarification on something....i can see your very astute when it comes to scripture, and i value your insight as to your beliefs....

God bless willieH

Please know this dear brother... I do not set out to "convince" anyone of anything.

What I do is present the WORD accompanied by REASON, (which we are instructed to seek) -- Isaiah 1:18 -- as well as personal observation of "LOVE" that I have gained within my experience... and let the pieces fall where they may, according to will and sovereignty of YHVH...

He is the deliverer (not me)... and I do not set out to impose upon or require anyone to change what they believe because of what I might say.

GOD shall do (via His servants) the "speaking" where TRUTH is concerned, and it is CERTAIN that LOVE -- 1 John 4:8 -- shall be observed, and FOUND PRESENT within the "speaking" which He does...

As well... the "speaking" that is actually HIS, shall contain REASON -- Isaiah 1:18 -- as well as a messsage of PEACE -- Rom 15:33 -- Heb 13:20 -- 1 Cor 14:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- 1 Thess 5:23 -- 2 Thess 3:16 -- Heb 7:2 -- within WORDS which are truly and actually directed by HIM... (as well, visit the introductions and salutations of most of the Apostolic writings)

If ANY of these elements are NOT present in the WORDS that some present/offer to others, ...then the "words" of whomever is proposing that he/she is "speaking" on His behalf (delivering HIS message), certainly belongs to THEM, ...not ...HIM! (i.e. if the message does not "rhyme harmoniously" with LOVE, REASON and PEACE, ...then it's content is EXPOSED AS tainted where ANY of these inherent characteristics of GOD, are found missing!)

I commend you for your patient acumen, for it is a mark of SAINTHOOD... and is also an identifying part of the HOLY "quotient" of which we seek to be a "part"...

May PEACE abide in your heart as you seek Him... and I will always be a servant, willing to help in time of need.

and,

May God bless you and your seeking of Him... :pray:

PEACE...

...willieH :clap:

SkyOverCloudNed · Feb 11, 2012

I have several questions regarding this hell issue.

First, in the creation account, it took dust and God's breath (spirit) of life of create a living soul (as well as all other life forms) i.e. man. We use the terms souls and lives interchangeably when, for example, we say, 3,000
souls (lives) died on 911.

Second, Ecclesiastes assures us the dead have no memory i.e. sentience just as elsewhere we are assured that when God calls back His breath (spirit) of life to Him that nothing remains but dust.

Third, this raises the interesting point that if God's breath (spirit) of life is one of two required components for life to be then it logically follows that for someone to "live" forever sentient in a place of eternal torment that God's breath (spirit) of life would, too, have to reside with the dust thus making a being forever enduring "hell's hot".

Fourth, without God's breath (spirit) of life there can be no soul (life) thereby calling into question is man a soul or does man have a soul? This issue alone raises many more questions surrounding the development of the concept of does man have a soul over the past two thousand years as well as the non-Christian concept preceding the Christian era.

Fifth, if man does not have a soul but rather is a soul then the entire concept of eternal torment is found moot without further need for discussion save its purpose found in historical origins.

Sixth, The terms life and resurrection are so synonymously intertwined that they are one without separation; particularly, when considered in light of Jesus' words, "I am the resurrection and the life", for if He is just
that then it is just as unthinkable that He would suffer eternal torment just as it is unthinkable that that God's breath (spirit) of life would, also, suffer eternal torment.

Seventh, we spend our whole lives being taught by The Holy Spirit learning to be as Jesus; kind, just, loving and forgiving only in the end to see God vindictively torture forever and without end even those that never even heard the name of Jesus. Not only is this contradictory to what we are taught but it is also antithetical to the nature of God, Himself.

Eighth, there are numerous places that mention, for example, the nations that treated Israel kindly that because of this they are saved, yet surely not all those that make up those nations knew or even accepted Jesus, the only requirement being that they were kind to Israel; then there are references such as in John's Revelation where, in the new creation, it is stated that no thing that defiles, is an abomination or lies shall enter into the Temple giving the strong inference that outside the Temple are those that are unclean.

Ninth, For God so loved the world...if all are saved in whatever form or fashion then those others that do accept Jesus must of necessity be the Cream of the Crop and are those that are allowed to enter into the new Temple in the New Jerusalem which, since the Father and The Son ARE the Temple therein then those allowed in must be pure for THIS Temple can be none other than The Godhead Itself and, thus being the case, the entire concept of a Last Will and New Testament and HEIRS to the throne of God takes on an entirely new meaning.

Tenth, if hell were a real place of eternal torment there is a number of huge discrepancies in the scriptures for in the end of this world when all is destroyed in the (Peter's) lake of fire where even the elements melt away and where everything including all evil is destroyed then why would God save all the evil into the new creation? Surely not as a warning scaring all those saved from committing sin and evil in the new creation for we are also told that sin or evil of this life will be remembered no more in the new life. There are too many contradictions for any of this to have merit.

Over time I've (coming from a very hard core SBC background!) thought of many reasons against the concept of eternal torment though these are among the major ones off the top of my head.

Sadalmelik · Feb 11, 2012

i agree that the idea of a God who allows those unrepentent to suffer the most vile and painful possible existence without any possibility of ending....is so contradictory to that of an all loving God, it is incomprehensible to me that anyone would think such.

whenever i have posed this to those who believe such, they always say...."well it is the unsaved who choose it, not God", this is the biggest copout i have ever heard....yes....some i believe will, in the end, choose not to accept Christ as their saviour, but to then say, that by exrapulation, that they are choosing an eternal torment, is beyond ridiculous....

it is further ridiculous to believe that of all things that "hell' could have been, why would God have chose an eternal fire torment to be what "hell" would entail. why wouldnt it/couldnt it, have been anything else.....it could have been a million other things...but yet it, according to orthodox chrisianity, it is the most painful, malicious, and unloving thing it could possibly be....out of anything a human mind could think of.

shouldnt that alone give one pause? that of all the things hell could have been, it is the one "man" would choose as the most sadistic form of punishment a human mind could come up with....and how is that compatible with a God who knows only love...for He does not 'know" anything other than love.

it is so beyond my comprehension how people can just accept something so contradictory to me, and not only accept it, but rationalize it, while totally ignoring what their brain, heart, and soul, would, under normal conditions, be screaming...."this doesnt make sense", yet they not only believe it....they somehow feel that without a neverending concept of hell, that Gods justice would not be served....more on that thought tomorrow.

God bless.

SkyOverCloudNed · Feb 11, 2012

Scripturally speaking, I do not think fire is ever used for punishment but, rather, always for purification. Still, yet, another contradiction against the concept of eternal torment.

dollarsbill · Feb 12, 2012

SkyOverCloudNed said:
Scripturally speaking, I do not think fire is ever used for punishment but, rather, always for purification. Still, yet, another contradiction against the concept of eternal torment.

Jude 1:7
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Timothew · Feb 12, 2012

dollarsbill said:
Jude 1:7
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Dollarsbill is correct. Sodom and Gemorrah were consumed by the eternal fire. There was nothing left of Sodom and Gemorrah. They were completely destroyed. Some would even say annihilated. This is an example of what happens when someone rejects God and rejects His offer of eternal life.

The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment.

dollarsbill · Feb 12, 2012

Timothew said:
Dollarsbill is correct.

True indeed. The fire is described in the NT as 'eternal', 'everlasting', 'unquenchable' and 'forever'.

Soulgazer · Feb 12, 2012

If there is a hell, it is going to be filled by people who believe in it. Just who believes in hell? People who try to bring it to earth, of course. Warmongers, fighters, haters, racist and bigots, those that would deny people they themselves don't like a place in the Father's house.

Who does not go to hell? Those that have heard the voice of the Shepherd and followed it. Note that what Jesus does not say, is as important as what He did say. He did not say, "My sheep will know my name". He said, "My sheep will know my voice". What is the voice of the shepherd? Love. Hope. Faith. Compassion. Understanding. Tolerance. All of the opposites; He stated more than once, that those that will not show mercy will not find mercy, that those who will not give forgiveness, will not find it. And he showed more than once who was a member of the kingdom of heaven and who was not. He counted among it's members the Samaritan who aided a man sure to hate him. He just as surely discounted those that would deny the Samaritan a place in the Father's house, that those who would deny others a place in the Father's house have their own place in jeopardy.

Let he who has ears to hear............

cupid dave · Feb 12, 2012

jrog said:
i have rejected the doctrine of eternal hell, that was a big step itself to do, and i am still researching and trying to figure everything out on this subject....i have a long way to go....i know....for i believe anyone who thinks they have it all figured out is fooling themselves...i know as a christian i will never stop learning...i believe that of all christians.

Think big.

Jesus essentially was telling us that we ought support one another rather than compete against each other.
He was saying that a strong brotherly connectioin between all men is the safest route to developing mutual survival skills/

The world today is again close to nuclear armegeddon and we hold in our habds the power to exterminate the whole species.

I see Hell as the extinction of a second death for us unless we learn to love mankind and work as the Social Animals we ought become.

Proverbs 6:6
Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider her ways and be wise!--

eachallberg · Feb 12, 2012

Nobody.
It wouldn't be in the lead if this was in GT.

God doesn't torment. Its offensive to hear different.
Peace and grace be to you.

he-man · Feb 12, 2012

eachallberg said:
Nobody.
It wouldn't be in the lead if this was in GT.

God doesn't torment. Its offensive to hear different.
Peace and grace be to you.

mantelofaprophet · Feb 12, 2012

jrog said:
i agree that the idea of a God who allows those unrepentent to suffer the most vile and painful possible existence without any possibility of ending....is so contradictory to that of an all loving God, it is incomprehensible to me that anyone would think such.

whenever i have posed this to those who believe such, they always say...."well it is the unsaved who choose it, not God", this is the biggest copout i have ever heard....yes....some i believe will, in the end, choose not to accept Christ as their saviour, but to then say, that by exrapulation, that they are choosing an eternal torment, is beyond ridiculous....

it is further ridiculous to believe that of all things that "hell' could have been, why would God have chose an eternal fire torment to be what "hell" would entail. why wouldnt it/couldnt it, have been anything else.....it could have been a million other things...but yet it, according to orthodox chrisianity, it is the most painful, malicious, and unloving thing it could possibly be....out of anything a human mind could think of.

shouldnt that alone give one pause? that of all the things hell could have been, it is the one "man" would choose as the most sadistic form of punishment a human mind could come up with....and how is that compatible with a God who knows only love...for He does not 'know" anything other than love.

it is so beyond my comprehension how people can just accept something so contradictory to me, and not only accept it, but rationalize it, while totally ignoring what their brain, heart, and soul, would, under normal conditions, be screaming...."this doesnt make sense", yet they not only believe it....they somehow feel that without a neverending concept of hell, that Gods justice would not be served....more on that thought tomorrow.

God bless.

I'm not sure where you ever got the notion that God does not know anything other than love........He has anger, He has jealousy He takes vengence on the wicked, He destroys, He chastens those He loves, I'm not sure if there is an emotion God doesn't know other than fear

cupid dave · Feb 12, 2012

mantelofaprophet said:
I'm not sure where you ever got the notion that God does not know anything other than love........He has anger, He has jealousy He takes vengence on the wicked, He destroys, He chastens those He loves, I'm not sure if there is an emotion God doesn't know other than fear

Yes.

Most all Christians are confused and misdirected by the clear error of eqwusating Christ to Love.

The Torah commands us to doing the loving.
The Law or Torah is summed up in two commandments.

But Christ came to supercede the Law not merely repeat what it already commanded.

Christ is Truth.
Not love.

Torah Law is to love.
There is no obligation for God to Love us.
However, in that God provides for all our needs, he apparently does love us.

Like a Father would.

The Truth is, that men are selfish an need to love God and love their neighbor.
Men do need to obey this Law, but in order to so do, they must face the Truth.

The Truth is that loving others does not give evil a pass, either.

Huram Abi · Feb 13, 2012

cupid dave said:
Yes.

The Law or Torah is summed up in two commandments.

But Christ came to supercede the Law.

Neither of those statements are true.

All the laws hang on the first two, but they are not summed up by it and Christ came to "fulfill the law" not supercede it.

Sadalmelik · Feb 13, 2012

mantelofaprophet said:

I'm not sure where you ever got the notion that God does not know anything other than love........He has anger, He has jealousy He takes vengence on the wicked, He destroys, He chastens those He loves, I'm not sure if there is an emotion God doesn't know other than fear[/quote

Click to expand...

mantelofaprophet said:
God is love, let me phrase it that way instead, i think you know what i meant when i said it. yes God knows everything, but He doesnt know evil, so who made up the idea of what hell would be.....man or God?

you may choose to give God the credit of thinking up something so sadistic as a neverending nazi furnace.....ill give man the credit for that one....just remember, as ive been told so many times.....well all have to answer for our beliefs that day.

despite what those say who believe that God would make man, full well knowing that most men (as it says in scripture), will not make it to heaven....and instead chooses to go that route anyway, knowing most men would suffer an eternity of neverending suffering and punishment....is beyond belief....

i also wonder how, if so few are going to make it....how is it that everyone "feels" theyre going to heaven? kind of makes you wonder, dont it....if you listened to everyone., and where they feel theyll end up....youd think everyone would be there....yet they themselves all feel theyll defintitely be there.....once again the "hooray for me, to bad for you crowd"

"everybody wanna go to heaven, but nobody wanna go now"

Timothew · Feb 13, 2012

jrog said:
"everybody wanna go to heaven, but nobody wanna go now"

I want to go to heaven, but I don't want to go tonight.
Fill my boots up with sand, put a stiff drink in my hand,
Prop me up beside the jukebox if I die.
You can pay your respects one quarter at a time.
Joe Diffie

he-man · Feb 13, 2012

Timothew said:
I want to go to heaven, but I don't want to go tonight.
Fill my boots up with sand, put a stiff drink in my hand,
Prop me up beside the jukebox if I die.
You can pay your respects one quarter at a time.
Joe Diffie

Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, the Son of man which is in heaven.

WillieH · Feb 13, 2012

dollarsbill said:
Jude 1:7
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

hmmm... typical mistranslation of terminology which NO man understands or comprehends.

"FOREVER" is as without BEGINNING, as it is without END.

Until anyone can explain how GOD or anything else has NO BEGINNING, the use of the word "ETERNAL" ...by anyone concerning TIME bound scenarios and inhabitants, ...is INVALID.

Is the FIRE of Sodom & Gomorrah burning today? For TODAY is part of "FORVER"! Of course it is NOT BURNING.

The translation of AIONIOS in the KJV to "eternal", is THEREFORE false. As this word is DERIVITIVE of the word AION which has to do with TIME.

Being a TIME oriented term, it cannot have part in ALL that surrrounds TIME... ETERNAL is:

BEFORE "TIME" existed -- Gen 1:1-31 -- Job 37:7 -- (the "first day" prior to which NO "days" ...existed) as well as,

AFTER TIME is concluded -- John 6:40 -- John 12:48 -- John 11:21Rev 10:6 -- (the "last day", means that NO "days" shall "follow" it)

Before TIME existed, GOD already existed, as did ALL of the SONS of GOD -- Job 38:7 -- which SHOUTED for joy at the Creation of TIME...

Peace... :groupray:

...willieH :clap:

WillieH · Feb 13, 2012

Huram Abi said:
Neither of those statements are true.

All the laws hang on the first two, but they are not summed up by it

FALSE! -- Matt 22:37-40 -- JESUS said unto him, thou shalt love the Lord thy GOD with all thy heart, and wit hall thy soul and with all thy mind... this is the FIRST and great commandment... and the SECOND is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself... on THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS, hang ALL the LAW and the PROPHETS.

If the ENTIRE LAW and PROPHETS "hang" upon these 2 laws... how can you say they are not "SUMMED up" in them? ...(by CHRIST's LIVING manifestation of them = fulfilling)?

HA said:
and Christ came to "fulfill the law" not supercede it.

TRUE! --

-- Matt 5:17 -- Think not that I am come DESTROY the law, or the prophets, I am not come to DESTROY but to FULFIL.

Something which is "FULFILLED" is "summed up" as I see it.

How did JESUS "fulfil" the LAW and the PROPHETS? Easy. He LOVED GOD with all his heart, soul and mind... and LOVED His neighbor as Himself. -- which is the "SUMMING up" OF (COMPLETION), and FULFILLMENT of the PURPOSE of the LAW and the PROPHETS.

peace... :groupray:

...willieH :clap:

Huram Abi · Feb 13, 2012

Yes, all the laws HANG on these two. They are suspended by and held up by the first two. Is this a summation? Only as much as a cornerstone is the summation of the entire structure.
They are not summaries, but one is the compliment of the other.

Saying that these 2 laws are a summary of the whole they belong to makes nothing out of the whole of God's statutes and laws. We can prove this mathematically.

let x = the first 2 commandments and y = the whole of the law.

If x=y while y is inclusive of x, then y-x=y.

Solve for x

y-x=y
y-x(+x)=y+x
y-y=y+x(-y)
0=x

If x=0 and x=y, then y=0

You've reduced the Law to nothing by saying that the law is equal to only a portion of itself.

Who goes to hell?

According to your beliefs, who ends up in hell?

Those who do not become Christian during their mortal life

Those who do not submit to Christ/ accept Christ's love in the afterlife

Nobody. I don't believe in Hell.

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