Greece burning and Syria in turmoil...

I don't know, Jim. I mean, if the US doesn't turn into an atheistic country too soon, people may convert to Orthodoxy before then.

In all fairness, droves of Americans are not running down to the nearest Orthodox parish to sign up. More Americans who actually do still believe in God are converting to evangelical religions faster than anything.

That being said, Orthodoxy seems to be growing faster in recent years than in the past.

I'm starting to wonder about Catholic attendance numbers since they have been putting TV commercials up trying to get folks to join up. There has to be a reason for that....

I agree with Dorothea, America, of late is showing to be more a defender of atheism than Orthodoxy or for that matter anything remotely resembling Christianity, let alone Orthodoxy.

gracefullamb said:

I agree with Dorothea, America, of late is showing to be more a defender of atheism than Orthodoxy or for that matter anything remotely resembling Christianity, let alone Orthodoxy.

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The USA is now the arrogant defender of atheistic materialism, immoral sex education (K-college), unbridled eugenics (mandated funding of birth control as part of Obamacare and death panels), and secular humanism.

Not so sure I concur with the death panels and the sex ed comments, but the rest I can swallow.

MariaRegina said:

The USA is now the arrogant defender of atheistic materialism, immoral sex education (K-college), unbridled eugenics (mandated funding of birth control as part of Obamacare and death panels), and secular humanism.

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Lord have mercy...

MrJim said:

and Russia is, well, Russia...can the USA become a stable seat for Orthodoxy? I got to thinking about this watching the news this evening with the problems in Greece & Syria...yeah I think about the EO when I watch the news

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Only an American could say this!

What's wrong with what he said?

ikonographics said:

Only an American could say this!

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gurneyhalleck1 said:

I'm starting to wonder about Catholic attendance numbers since they have been putting TV commercials up trying to get folks to join up. There has to be a reason for that....

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I've seen those commercials. From what I've heard, many people are returning to the Catholic Church as well as converting. There are plenty of Orthodox converts from Catholicism who are even going back to Rome (some in my family have done this).

As for Orthodoxy in America, I'm probably not as optimistic as most would be. With Orthodox parishes in the United States, you either get one that is extremely ethnic and you get some that have been influenced by Protestant ideas (due to the influx of converts from Protestantism). The latter is one of the reasons why some converts from Catholicism are leaving Orthodoxy.

The news is owned by a few people - who want us to think what they want us to think. In addition, its nature is to report the abnormal, the unusual and the exception - and to exaggerate it.

Unfortunately, I think it too late to hope for a Great Awakening to Orthodoxy. We're going to have to undergo some kind of deluge before anything like that could happen. Speaking broadly, people have to have their hopes in this world flattened out (to borrow the expression from Lewis) before they will consider hopes in another one. A Niven-and-Pournelle-type "Lucifer's Hammer" would do it, but I don't think any of us look forward to those kinds of scenarios.

gurneyhalleck1 said:

What's wrong with what he said?

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If I may try to offer an explanation, Gurney - people who live in other countries know that, despite media reports to the contrary, most of them have an overwhelmingly normal life that the media do not report, for the reason that it is normal life. The impressions they get of America is that it is full of wickedness, violence and natural disasters, based on news reports.
And we know that the part about wickedness, etc, is true, but leaves out the massive normal life that nearly all of us experience.

I still don't fully understand what you mean by "a stable centre for Orthodoxy". You seem to be looking for a country with not too many tele-visible incidents of social unrest but a strong percentage of Orthodox to play that role.

Why do you think this is needed? We definitely didn't always have it. When this whole thing started, it was 12 peasants in a rebellious roman province.

Well, thanks for the concern .

Schools are definitely working - with problems, shortages and the occational teachers' strike, but they are working. So are publishing houses and most definitely monasteries. I can assure you there is absolutely no question, need or reason for clergy to leave the country and there is no special persecution of the church, other than the virus of secularism that's spreading everywhere in the world.

The EP is based in Istanbul, which is in Turkey, so he is not directly affected by developments in either Greece or Syria. There have been all sorts of problems at times with the EP and the turkish governments - slightly improved situation recently though, we hear. Would it be a good idea to move him somewhere else, for example to the US - that could make another discussion, but I wouldn't connect it to the revolution in Syria or the Greek debt crisis .

Fair enough, Rus. I don't think Bush and the two wars, one preemptive and totally outrageous, helped gain confidence in the U.S. abroad. But I also think the dubious associations Russia has with dangerous rogue states and the history they have of arming dangerous countries gives countries like Russia the same reputation of lacking scruples on foreign policy. As far as morality goes, the United States has its issues but then again, so does Europe. In countries that have legalized drugs and prostitution, rampant child-trafficking, rampant abortions, and hardcore atheism like many nations in Europe, they hardly can judge Americans. I think judgments on the United States are selective. They still fail to recognize the huge amount of good the U.S. does for less fortunate nations and the tremendous amount of charity, outreach, aid, and care that we have for others. The military industrial complex taints all the good we do, IMHO. We have a long way to go, but don't they all!

rusmeister said:

If I may try to offer an explanation, Gurney - people who live in other countries know that, despite media reports to the contrary, most of them have an overwhelmingly normal life that the media do not report, for the reason that it is normal life. The impressions they get of America is that it is full of wickedness, violence and natural disasters, based on news reports.
And we know that the part about wickedness, etc, is true, but leaves out the massive normal life that nearly all of us experience.

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gurneyhalleck1 said:

Fair enough, Rus. I don't think Bush and the two wars, one preemptive and totally outrageous, helped gain confidence in the U.S. abroad. But I also think the dubious associations Russia has with dangerous rogue states and the history they have of arming dangerous countries gives countries like Russia the same reputation of lacking scruples on foreign policy. As far as morality goes, the United States has its issues but then again, so does Europe. In countries that have legalized drugs and prostitution, rampant child-trafficking, rampant abortions, and hardcore atheism like many nations in Europe, they hardly can judge Americans. I think judgments on the United States are selective. They still fail to recognize the huge amount of good the U.S. does for less fortunate nations and the tremendous amount of charity, outreach, aid, and care that we have for others. The military industrial complex taints all the good we do, IMHO. We have a long way to go, but don't they all!

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Well, this seems to hearken back to the point that we get most of what we think we know from centrally-controlled media, and not from what we see ourselves, or hear directly from friends or family.

And I now think that speaking anthropomorphically of countries (Russia "does" thus-and-so") must be done with great care, for when we do so, we risk forgetting that countries are not people, and do not have a single will, and nearly always have governments that very often do not do the will of their peoples. At the very least, I try to keep it uppermost in my mind if I say or hear such anthropomorphisms.

Your words on the US can truly be turned around and used by others speaking of their own countries. For example, you may have heard about American relief for Japan or Haiti, but you probably did not hear much about Russian relief efforts at the same time for those countries. I think the patriotism good - the patriot, the normal man who loves his homeland should think his country preferable to others, but I see a danger in imagining that other peoples cannot find good things to praise about their own countries.

I never claimed that the U.S. is the only country that helps or offers aid to downtrodden lands. But there is absolutely no doubt in the world that the U.S. offers infinitely more aid to troubled countries than Russia or other such nations who don't have as much financial resources as the U.S. And we were talking in particular about the U.S. We are often considered the Great Satan by many Eastern countries, especially in the Middle East. There are always two sides to a story, and the U.S. isn't innocent in their crooked CIA intrigues in the M.E. but heaven knows we still do more good than any other nation, including Russia. That being said, we also have selective outrage where our $$$ is concerned as well. Rwanda and other genocide-laden lands are sometimes ignored while other ones, rich in oil or other influences, are given aid. I don't propose the U.S. is a sinless, pure, unspoiled holy land of concentrated giving. But we do more than just about everyone even with all the baggage we carry.

But a problem that I see in your post is that you generalize while criticizing generalizations. Your concern that one (possibly you mean me, I don't know) can only imagine one's own nation doing good things and that other nations cannot find praiseworthy things to offer up for their homelands is not an argument I made? I never said anything close to that. My wife is from another country. I can find something good to say about just about every country. Even in lands where intense evil exists, there is good. I never said or implied any such thing. When I praise my own country, it doesn't leave an implication that other lands are then bereft of relevence or good? If I say my wife is beautiful, it doesn't mean my neighbor's wife is a dog. But even objectively speaking, the U.S. offers more foreign aid and military help to most downtrodden countries than any other nation on Earth. We lead more U.N. missions, offer up more dollars than anyone else. Does that mean all other nations are worthless? Not by a longshot. I do appreciate your point that countries like Russia contribute A LOT and care like everyone else, but the concern you point out is, IMHO, unnecessary here.

rusmeister said:

Well, this seems to hearken back to the point that we get most of what we think we know from centrally-controlled media, and not from what we see ourselves, or hear directly from friends or family.

And I now think that speaking anthropomorphically of countries (Russia "does" thus-and-so") must be done with great care, for when we do so, we risk forgetting that countries are not people, and do not have a single will, and nearly always have governments that very often do not do the will of their peoples. At the very least, I try to keep it uppermost in my mind if I say or hear such anthropomorphisms.

Your words on the US can truly be turned around and used by others speaking of their own countries. For example, you may have heard about American relief for Japan or Haiti, but you probably did not hear much about Russian relief efforts at the same time for those countries. I think the patriotism good - the patriot, the normal man who loves his homeland should think his country preferable to others, but I see a danger in imagining that other peoples cannot find good things to praise about their own countries.

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