Could being impaled on a spike be good?

Svt4Him · Feb 9, 2012

probinson said:
I think what's happening is when people hear their position repeated back to them, they realize how "silly" it is, recoil and say, "What I said isn't what I really said!"

So to summarize my belief so there is no confusion;
I believe that murder is bad and standing in faith for Christ no matter the cost is good.

Feel free to succinctly state your belief on the topic so we may end the confusion.

Ya, sometimes when they realize how silly it is they recoil, but sometimes they simply summarize.

Source Scripture · Feb 9, 2012

probinson said:
I think what's happening is when people hear their position repeated back to them, they realize how "silly" it is, recoil and say, "What I said isn't what I really said!"

So to summarize my belief so there is no confusion;

I believe that murder is bad and standing in faith for Christ no matter the cost is good.

Feel free to succinctly state your belief on the topic so we may end the confusion.

Who exhibitid Paul, who spiked him?

1 Corinthians 4;9 For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men.

probinson · Feb 9, 2012

Svt4Him said:
Ya, sometimes when they realize how silly it is they recoil, but sometimes they simply summarize.

Actually, my position hasn't changed at all, nor do I think it's the least bit "silly" when you say it back to me.

I simply summarized what I've been saying throughout the entire thread in a single sentence so there would be no confusion as to my belief on the topic.

You could do the same and we could then discuss our actual differences on the topic, if in fact any exist. Or not. Your call.

probinson · Feb 9, 2012

Source Scripture said:
who spiked him?

And this is where bad theology leads you. Not only is being impaled on a spike a "good" thing now, but God is the One that actually "spike" you.

"But it pleased God to crush Jesus! See? It says so right here!"
Isaiah 53:10-12 (NIV)
Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Rather than just try to equate being impaled with a spike to the selfless sacrifice of Jesus Christ, perhaps it would behoove us to take a closer look at WHY it pleased the Lord to crush Him.

Jesus is the Savior of the world. It was God's plan from the foundations of the world to send Him to die as a sin sacrifice for every sin you and I would ever commit.

God created Adam, knowing full well that Adam would sin. But God didn't shove an apple down Adam's throat. Adam chose to disobey God, and as a result, sin entered the world. But God had a plan to restore us to right standing with Him before any of that ever happened.

Jesus' sacrifice was an amazing and selfless act of Love by our Father. Jesus knew why He was sent to this earth, and He willingly obeyed God's foreordained plan so that everyone of us could be saved.

This is not just being impaled on a spike for the sake of the Gospel, which scripture tells us is most certainly commendable should it happen to us that we must stand in faith no matter the consequence. This is the single greatest act of Love that COMPLETELY obliterated the consequences of sin for the world.

THAT is why it pleased God to crush Jesus, not because He likes "spik[ing]" people.

Source Scripture · Feb 9, 2012

probinson said:
And this is where bad theology leads you. Not only is being impaled on a spike a "good" thing now, but God is the One that actually "spike" you.

"But it pleased God to crush Jesus! See? It says so right here!"

Isaiah 53:10-12 (NIV)
Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Rather than just try to equate being impaled with a spike to the selfless sacrifice of Jesus Christ, perhaps it would behoove us to take a closer look at WHY it pleased the Lord to crush Him.

Jesus is the Savior of the world. It was God's plan from the foundations of the world to send Him to die as a sin sacrifice for every sin you and I would ever commit.

God created Adam, knowing full well that Adam would sin. But God didn't shove an apple down Adam's throat. Adam chose to disobey God, and as a result, sin entered the world. But God had a plan to restore us to right standing with Him before any of that ever happened.

Jesus' sacrifice was an amazing and selfless act of Love by our Father. Jesus knew why He was sent to this earth, and He willingly obeyed God's foreordained plan so that everyone of us could be saved.

This is not just being impaled on a spike for the sake of the Gospel, which scripture tells us is most certainly commendable should it happen to us that we must stand in faith no matter the consequence. This is the single greatest act of Love that COMPLETELY obliterated the consequences of sin for the world.

THAT is why it pleased God to crush Jesus, not because He likes "spik[ing]" people.

Paul said God did it, and we see that the spike worked for good. The spike was totally intertwined, with the life given to others.

No spike, no life, that is a fact.

2 Corinthians 4:12 So death is at work in us, but life in you.

FoundInGrace · Feb 9, 2012

probinson said:
And this is where bad theology leads you. Not only is being impaled on a spike a "good" thing now, but God is the One that actually "spike" you.

"But it pleased God to crush Jesus! See? It says so right here!"
Isaiah 53:10-12 (NIV)
Yet it was the LORDs will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Rather than just try to equate being impaled with a spike to the selfless sacrifice of Jesus Christ, perhaps it would behoove us to take a closer look at WHY it pleased the Lord to crush Him.

Jesus is the Savior of the world. It was God's plan from the foundations of the world to send Him to die as a sin sacrifice for every sin you and I would ever commit.

God created Adam, knowing full well that Adam would sin. But God didn't shove an apple down Adam's throat. Adam chose to disobey God, and as a result, sin entered the world. But God had a plan to restore us to right standing with Him before any of that ever happened.

Jesus' sacrifice was an amazing and selfless act of Love by our Father. Jesus knew why He was sent to this earth, and He willingly obeyed God's foreordained plan so that everyone of us could be saved.

This is not just being impaled on a spike for the sake of the Gospel, which scripture tells us is most certainly commendable should it happen to us that we must stand in faith no matter the consequence. This is the single greatest act of Love that COMPLETELY obliterated the consequences of sin for the world.

THAT is why it pleased God to crush Jesus, not because He likes "spik[ing]" people.

For God does not willingly bring affliction on the sons of men.

(-but he does bring it)

If you read this verse in context it breaks His heart but He does bring affliction on the sons of men.

Svt4Him · Feb 10, 2012

probinson said:
Actually, my position hasn't changed at all, nor do I think it's the least bit "silly" when you say it back to me.

I simply summarized what I've been saying throughout the entire thread in a single sentence so there would be no confusion as to my belief on the topic.

You could do the same and we could then discuss our actual differences on the topic, if in fact any exist. Or not. Your call.

See Pete, here is the funny thing, neither has mine, and for that matter, I haven't seen where any "recoiling" has taken place. Go back and read, then see where it became personal.

probinson · Feb 10, 2012

FoundInGrace said:
For God does not willingly bring affliction on the sons of men.

(-but he does bring it)

If you read this verse in context it breaks His heart but He does bring affliction on the sons of men.

As we discussed earlier in the thread, James speaks about our tests and trials, and how we should consider it all joy when we face trials of many kinds, because we know that the trying of our faith works patience in us.

However, James doesn't stop there. If you read on, he says this;

James 1:13-17 (AMP)
Let no one say when he is tempted, I am tempted from God; for God is incapable of being tempted by [what is] evil and He Himself tempts no one. But every person is tempted when he is drawn away, enticed and baited by his own evil desire (lust, passions). Then the evil desire, when it has conceived, gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is fully matured, brings forth death. Do not be misled, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect (free, large, full) gift is from above; it comes down from the Father of all [that gives] light, in [the shining of] Whom there can be no variation [rising or setting] or shadow cast by His turning [as in an eclipse].

Take a look at what James says brings on our trials. It ain't God. It's when we are "drawn away", "enticed and baited" by... God? No. Satan? No. By our own evil desires.

Then James goes on to say DO NOT BE MISLED. Every GOOD (there's that word again) and PERFECT gift is from God. Other translations say that He does not change like shifting shadows.

Why do you suppose James stops and talks about the goodness of God and how He gives good and perfect gifts, and how He does not change like shifting shadows, RIGHT AFTER he talked about how we should count it all joy when we face trials of many kinds? I believe it is because he wants to make clear that God isn't the one tempting and trying us.

So I would repeat to you the words of James,

"Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (KJV)"

JimB · Feb 10, 2012

probinson said:
As we discussed earlier in the thread, James speaks about our tests and trials, and how we should consider it all joy when we face trials of many kinds, because we know that the trying of our faith works patience in us.

However, James doesn't stop there. If you read on, he says this;

James 1:13-17 (AMP)
Let no one say when he is tempted, I am tempted from God; for God is incapable of being tempted by [what is] evil and He Himself tempts no one. But every person is tempted when he is drawn away, enticed and baited by his own evil desire (lust, passions). Then the evil desire, when it has conceived, gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is fully matured, brings forth death. Do not be misled, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect (free, large, full) gift is from above; it comes down from the Father of all [that gives] light, in [the shining of] Whom there can be no variation [rising or setting] or shadow cast by His turning [as in an eclipse].

Take a look at what James says brings on our trials. It ain't God. It's when we are "drawn away", "enticed and baited" by... God? No. Satan? No. By our own evil desires.

Then James goes on to say DO NOT BE MISLED. Every GOOD (there's that word again) and PERFECT gift is from God. Other translations say that He does not change like shifting shadows.

Why do you suppose James stops and talks about the goodness of God and how He gives good and perfect gifts, and how He does not change like shifting shadows, RIGHT AFTER he talked about how we should count it all joy when we face trials of many kinds? I believe it is because he wants to make clear that God isn't the one tempting and trying us.

So I would repeat to you the words of James,

"Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (KJV)"

I think you are confusing "temptation" to sin, which never comes from God, with "trials" of our faith, which may often come from God.

FoundInGrace · Feb 10, 2012

i agree with you about trials and tribulations, but I also believe God brings affliction at times also directly and to deny this about God is to have imho a limited view of God.

God stops people speaking makes them mute, He covers people with leprosy, He turns people into pillars of salt, He makes people go crazy and eat grass.

So it is worth allowing God to be God as He is fully described in the Bible and having a correct theology about what He is capable of, not limiting God to what we think He should be or want Him to be simply because that is how we understand 'goodness' to be - as our own personal comfort zone can handle.

it is a stance that can be threatening to some people's faith that God has the capacity to do what He will and that includes bringing affliction and sickness at times (leprosy, muteness etc), but God's ways are not our ways remember. We can think we understand God but He is a consuming fire and fearful to behold! With our limited understanding we can never fully know Him until we are taken to heaven.

Everything God does is perfect and with pure motive and for His purposes - not to make us comfortable. We have God all packaged up in our own understanding of what we currently comprehend to be 'good' which is not necessarily God's definition of 'good'. His ways are higher than our ways. Maybe we need to let Him out of the box we may have put Him in and let Him actually be God. Scripture says it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God after all. Maybe thats because He's not Santa He's God.

probinson · Feb 10, 2012

FoundInGrace said:
We have God all packaged up in our own understanding of what we currently comprehend to be 'good' which is not necessarily God's definition of 'good'.

And this is why we will likely never fully agree on this topic this side of heaven. Like I said earlier, I don't believe that the word "good" is an ethereal concept that we can't grasp. Additionally, it seems odd to me that if we were unable to distinguish good from bad that this would be in scripture;

Isaiah 5:20 (AMP)
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Antonyms; Good/Evil. Darkness/Light. Bitter/Sweet. These aren't difficult concepts to understand, and I don't believe that God works from a different dictionary than we do.

FoundInGrace said:
His ways are higher than our ways.

Agreed. His ways are indeed HIGHER than our ways.

tangled · Feb 10, 2012

JimB said:
I think you are confusing "temptation" to sin, which never comes from God, with "trials" of our faith, which may often come from God.

yep.

God allows things for a reason. Trials are from God. They produce endurance, character, hope...Perfect Gifts from God.

Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

probinson · Feb 10, 2012

JimB said:
I think you are confusing "temptation" to sin, which never comes from God, with "trials" of our faith, which may often come from God.

I don't think I'm confusing anything.

If you read James 1 from the beginning, he makes no distinction between trials and temptations;

James 1:2 (AMP)
Consider it wholly joyful, my brethren, whenever you are enveloped in or encounter trials of any sort or fall into various temptations.

Then he goes on to say just a few verses later that we should not err, believing this is from God.

dkbwarrior · Feb 10, 2012

probinson said:
I don't think I'm confusing anything.

If you read James 1 from the beginning, he makes no distinction between trials and temptations;

James 1:2 (AMP)
Consider it wholly joyful, my brethren, whenever you are enveloped in or encounter trials of any sort or fall into various temptations.

Then he goes on to say just a few verses later that we should not err, believing this is from God.

Seems pretty clear to me.

Peace...

FoundInGrace · Feb 10, 2012

probinson said:
And this is why we will likely never fully agree on this topic this side of heaven. Like I said earlier, I don't believe that the word "good" is an ethereal concept that we can't grasp. Additionally, it seems odd to me that if we were unable to distinguish good from bad that this would be in scripture;

Isaiah 5:20 (AMP)
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Antonyms; Good/Evil. Darkness/Light. Bitter/Sweet. These aren't difficult concepts to understand, and I don't believe that God works from a different dictionary than we do.

Agreed. His ways are indeed HIGHER than our ways.

Agreed we probably wont agree this side of heaven, and I appreciate you saying that.

I think of it this way.. lets say two people who dont know God, God covers with leprosy like He did in the Bible (Num 12). One person, gets all bitter and turns from God cursing God and says getting leprosy was the worst thing that could have happened to them. The other person out of anguish turns to God and finds God in the midst of it and says getting leprosy is the best thing that has happened to them.

Each person have a different idea about what leprosy means to them. For one in their life it was good/a blessing because they found God, for one it was bad/a curse.

most of the time i see 'good' and 'bad' as you do but i also see good as defined as something that brings us closer to God and into that definition fall a lot of circumstances that the world would call 'bad'.

God did not heal me as a child though I prayed often for this and could not at the time understand why He didnt heal me.
Now as an adult I see Him not healing me as a good thing because it helped form my character and He walked with me through that and I had my own relationship with Him because He understood exactly how I felt. I needed God and perhaps would not have in the same way otherwise.
I see my 'deformity' as a gift from the Lord.
And when someone tells me it is 'bad' it is offensive to me for that reason. It is sacred because it was from God for Him to use as He will so I could do works for Him I couldnt otherwise. I know that is something that is hard to grasp for some but for others who have walked it they know what I am saying.

I could list other examples of 'bad' things that have happened to me at the hands of others, again because they brought me to God and to know God as He really is, I see God's goodness in them because He kept me and I learnt more of who He really is through them. It broke His heart that they happened but again if someone were to say those things were 'bad' it is incredibly difficult for me to not be thankful for them because it meant I met God!!!
Like Joseph said man meant for harm, God meant for good!

so yes I do agree with this verse too

Isaiah 5:20 (AMP)
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

we need to be careful about calling all sickness etc as bad because another person may not see it like that.

tangled · Feb 10, 2012

Tell me Jesus' trial wasn't from God.

Source Scripture · Feb 10, 2012

tangled said:
Tell me Jesus' trial wasn't from God.

Correct.

Hebrews 5:8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.

tangled · Feb 10, 2012

He couldn't do anything BUT obey

dkbwarrior · Feb 11, 2012

tangled said:
He couldn't do anything BUT obey

That is not true, he had free will just like us.

Peace...

dkbwarrior · Feb 11, 2012

FoundInGrace said:
Agreed we probably wont agree this side of heaven, and I appreciate you saying that.

I think of it this way.. lets say two people who dont know God, God covers with leprosy like He did in the Bible (Num 12). One person, gets all bitter and turns from God cursing God and says getting leprosy was the worst thing that could have happened to them. The other person out of anguish turns to God and finds God in the midst of it and says getting leprosy is the best thing that has happened to them.

we need to be careful about calling all sickness etc as bad because another person may not see it like that.

I think of it this way. Just change the players and see if it makes any sense at all.

A man has two daughters. They have been disobedient. He rapes both of them. One of them runs away and spends her life in bitterness against him. The other accepts it and marries her dad when she is older.

We need to be careful about calling all rape etc as bad because another person may not see it like that.

Bull sh#t. That is simply religious garbage trying to explain something that you do not yet understand. We have a term for this kind of behavior, it is called the stockholm syndrome. A victim who is co-dependent on their victimizer. Unfortunatly, this is the relationship many people have with God. Don't blame God. It is the thief that comes to kill, steal and destroy. We know that rape is bad because the Bible tells us that it is bad. And we know that sickness is bad because the Bible tells us that sickness is bad.

And I am sick of poeple bringing up Old Testament examples of this, when Paul tells us that the gospel was a mystery to be revealed in the last days. We don't get our theology on these things from the Old Testament. We get it from the life of Jesus, who revealed the true nature of the Father to us. Jesus, never, not once, made anyone sick. Period. He always healed. Period. Thats it, thats all. So long folks.

Peace...

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