No purpose to universe

GrowingSmaller · Feb 6, 2012

Correct me if my logic is wrong.

If something has a purpose, the giving of purpose must be prior to the thing purposively done.

The universe is everything.

Therefore, the universe can have no purpose, because the giving of purpose would have to be prior to it, but that is impossible because there cannot be "prior to everything". That's because if it were purportedly prior it would be a thing, and therefore not be outside of the universe and prior to it, but part of it.

So there can only be purpose within the universe, but not a purpose to it.

Note I am using the word "universe" to mean all things including God (assuming He exists), rather than God's creation which could have a purpose to it.

GrowingSmaller · Feb 6, 2012

Oops I meant this for the philsophy forum folks. I will try and have it moved.

Redheadedstepchild · Feb 6, 2012

Mod hat

Thread moved per request.

quatona · Feb 6, 2012

GrowingSmaller said:
Note I am using the word "universe" to mean all things including God (assuming He exists), rather than God's creation which could have a purpose to it.

In any case it would have to be concluded (presuming your deduction is correct) that God can´t have a purpose.
Which suggests a good response to the ever recurring argument "without God our existence wouldn´t have a purpose": "What´s wrong with not having a purpose? God (allegedly the epitome of perfection) doesn´t have a purpose, either."

The Nihilist · Feb 6, 2012

GrowingSmaller said:
If something has a purpose, the giving of purpose must be prior to the thing purposively done.

Why do you think this is true? Also, what does purpose mean in this context?

variant · Feb 7, 2012

Thinking about things as to their "purposes" is the bias of thinking things.

What does it even mean?

Eventually you will run out of "purpose" if you keep taking it a step further and further because it is a view some thinking thing has of some thing.

And no it doesn’t need to precede that thing. Thing

This premice:
If something has a purpose, the giving of purpose must be prior to the thing purposively done.

Is incorrect.

The purpose of the earth (to me) is for me to live on it, although it existed before me.

Your problem is that you think purpose has any objective quality, it is in fact a subjective assertion.

GrowingSmaller · Feb 7, 2012

quatona said:
In any case it would have to be concluded (presuming your deduction is correct) that God can´t have a purpose.

God may have a purpose or set of purposes in mind, but was not created with a purpose in mind. Thats what I mean.

Which suggests a good response to the ever recurring argument "without God our existence wouldn´t have a purpose": "What´s wrong with not having a purpose? God (allegedly the epitome of perfection) doesn´t have a purpose, either."

I think thats right.

Except ones He makes for himself. There is no one "over" God so to speak.

GrowingSmaller · Feb 7, 2012

The Nihilist said:
Why do you think this is true? Also, what does purpose mean in this context?

I thought purposes are telelogical, done with an end in mind. I would say a purpose is doing something for a reason or intent, with an projected end in mind.

GrowingSmaller · Feb 7, 2012

variant said:
This premice:
If something has a purpose, the giving of purpose must be prior to the thing purposively done.

Is incorrect.

The purpose of the earth (to me) is for me to live on it, although it existed before me.

That is not the purpose the Earth is there for. I think you have your language wrong. If you look at the definition of purpose (here purpose - definition of purpose by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. ) it is an end for which something is done. So the earth could not originally exist for a purpose for a being which existed after it.

Your problem is that you think purpose has any objective quality, it is in fact a subjective assertion.

No I think that a purpose is mind dependent, and unless science discovers teleological causation in physics, I don't see how it could be "objective" at all (if even then).

The Paul · Feb 7, 2012

Quite honestly, I don't understand why people are disturbed by the idea of the universe not having a purpose. The idea that it could have a purpose seems bizarre to me.

KCfromNC · Feb 7, 2012

GrowingSmaller said:
That is not the purpose the Earth is there for. I think you have your language wrong. If you look at the definition of purpose (here purpose - definition of purpose by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. ) it is an end for which something is done. So the earth could not originally exist for a purpose for a being which existed after it.

Well the earth couldn't come after the people it was supposed to house, so it obviously would have to be prior even if it's purpose was to be a place for humans to live.

Received · Feb 7, 2012

I think it's possible for there to be a purpose to the universe, but the precedence is logical, not chronological. That said, I don't really know what it would concretely mean to say that the universe has a purpose. In a Kierkegaardian, theistic existentialist sort of way, this could mean that God gives purposes to human beings -- but that's not a purpose for the universe. For a universe to have a purpose, it would need to be aiming at some end, all constituents of the universe involved, working together for a grand telos. What does that even mean?

Tinker Grey · Feb 7, 2012

A rock exists prior to my purposing it (strange grammar) to be used as a hammer.

I think I agree with the hints above that the concept that things might exist with inherent purpose is a bit strange.

Often we get that teleological argument that we recognize things with design. The truth is that we recognize things that we, humans, design. Things with inherent specified purpose, such as a hammer, are things we have created.

To guess at the purpose of a bacterium that lives on a large asteroid but not on earth seems odd.

Received · Feb 7, 2012

Gets even screwier when we think of the telos built in to organic matter. A bacterium (to steal Tinker's thought) does, actually, have a teleology: its drive is in line with the basic evolutionary thrust of replication and propagation of itself. Its purpose is to survive and thrive. Except it isn't a conscious purpose, as we typically use the term, and we're the ones who, by being conscious, are projecting the concept of ends and purpose and such onto such bacteria.

sandwiches · Feb 7, 2012

Received said:
Gets even screwier when we think of the telos built in to organic matter. A bacterium (to steal Tinker's thought) does, actually, have a teleology: its drive is in line with the basic evolutionary thrust of replication and propagation of itself. Its purpose is to survive and thrive. Except it isn't a conscious purpose, as we typically use the term, and we're the ones who, by being conscious, are projecting the concept of ends and purpose and such onto such bacteria.

It's actually even stranger than that, fundamentally, and very difficult for me to explain. The bacterium is only acting and surviving because that's the inevitable path of causality for its constituent non-living particles and forces. For instance, a drop of water's "purpose" would seem to avoid obstacles and go down as low as possible, but the truth is that this is merely the result of the interactions of the forces and particles that make up this drop. So, our biological "purposes" and "imperatives" are merely the result of the path of least resistance in a series of interactions of "dead" and "unpurposed" matter and energy.

Received · Feb 7, 2012

I dig that completely, and you've done a great job of explaining something I had the inclination to try above. I think that a drop of water is intrinsically purposeless; its gliding down something presupposes something it can glide down, and even its ability to fall presupposes gravity. So we're talking about purpose in the sense of a relation between things.

jayem · Feb 7, 2012

The Paul said:
Quite honestly, I don't understand why people are disturbed by the idea of the universe not having a purpose. The idea that it could have a purpose seems bizarre to me.

I agree. The concept of purpose exists only in our minds. It's there because our brains are wired to discern and explain cause and effect relationships from what we perceive. Ultimately, nothing exists except particles in motion and the forces associated with them. Which is another unsettling concept for many people.

quatona · Feb 7, 2012

GrowingSmaller said:
God may have a purpose or set of purposes in mind, but was not created with a purpose in mind. Thats what I mean.

Good that you are aware of the possible equivocation.

I think thats right. Except ones He makes for himself.

Which, according to the premise of your deduction, is impossible.

There is no one "over" God so to speak.

Yup, and I am wondering why people see it as a problem when there´s "no one over...".

GrowingSmaller · Feb 7, 2012

The Paul said:
Quite honestly, I don't understand why people are disturbed by the idea of the universe not having a purpose. The idea that it could have a purpose seems bizarre to me.

I think it is down to the fallacy of division. Which alleges that a thing that is true of the whole must be true of the parts. An example would be a car, whic might weigh a ton, but the steering wheed does not weigh a ton. Likewise the whole (universe) may lack a purpose but that does not entail that we also lack purpose. Does that sound right?
more on fallacy of division here.

GrowingSmaller · Feb 7, 2012

quatona said:
Which, according to the premise of your deduction, is impossible.

I don't see how. Could you explain please?

No purpose to universe

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