Let's Talk About Hell (5)

gradyll said:

I am sorry but my references to 150 quotations that support byzantine tradition cannot be ALL spurious or marginal errors. Evidence please?

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gradyll said:

look for yourself, no translations accept for maybe one use the wording you are using.

Online Parallel Bible: Weaving God's Word into the Web

we all know how to use strongs, and secondly we all know that each word has various meanings. But the meanings chosen by accurate translations was verified already in post 862. You are simply out voted by the majority of translations.

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cupid dave said:

But the verse in your signature is well known as a medieval insertion that did not appear earlier Bibles.It IS by choice of word meaning from the long list of synonyms available that a total sum effect is suggest a particular point of view not necessarily directly stated in earlier manuscripts

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gradyll said:

I am sorry but my references to 150 quotations that support byzantine tradition cannot be ALL spurious or marginal errors. Evidence please?

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he-man said:

Then give me your source and the actual Manuscript numbers and references that you say you are quoting if they are not one of these:http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/Manuscripts1-500.html#m13
13 tenth century; Basel. Catalog number: University Library A. N. IV. 2.
45, 46, 47, 49, 59, 66, 72, 74, and 75 none of which have the spurious 1Jn 5:7

Acts of the Lateran Council in 1215.
Old Latin in its early form (Tertullian Cyprian Augustine),
Vulgate (b) as issued by Jerome
codex Fuldensis [copied a.d. 541-46]
codex Amiatinus [copied before a.d. 716])
revised by Alcuin
codex Vallicellianus [9th century]
Liber Apologeticus [4th century ]
Spanish heretic Priscillian (died about 385)
Bishop Instantius.

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Timothew said:

I like the Byzantine Textform, but 150 marginal additions are not a lot when you consider they are spread throughout the whole new testament, and this was an era when it was common for scribes to write in the margins of manuscripts.

AND
If the reader was reading the text and the scribes were copying, it would be natural for them to sometimes confuse the scripture with the reader's own side comments. I'm surprised that there was not a scribal addition that said "I'm dry, someone get me a cup of coffee."

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gradyll said:

so I guess you didn't read the dozens of quotations from 1-3rd century.

....and how they match the receptus and not the westcott hort.

the rest of the post you have posted many times before always plaigerized by you.

secondly here is a clip from a site on alexandrian vs byzantine

"The omission of some words and parts of
sentences from the Alexndarian Greek texts, the Sianaticus and
Vaticanus could have been the word of Christian scribes who might have
been influenced to some extent by the Gnostics. But the shorter
wordings of the Alexandarian type Greek manuscripts, and the omission
of certain key words that is consistent with gnostic theology occurs
earlier than the fourth century as shown by earlier Papyri fragments
of the New Testament.

See Majority Text vs. Critical Text: Part One

Many Papyri fragments of the New Testament contain Byzantine readings,
that is, the verse wordings are more similar to the Byzantine Greek
text than to the Alexandarian text, used by Westcott and Hort. "Harry
Sturz discusses these "distinctively Byzantine" readings in his
book, The Byzantine Text-Type and New Testament Textual Criticism."

"The most important of these discoveries was several Egyptian papyri.
Sturz lists "150 distinctively Byzantine readings" found in these
papyri. Included in his list are papyri numbers 13, 45, 46, 47, 49,
59, 66, 72, 74, and 75 (pp.61, 145-159)."

What Sturz is saying is that many early Papyri Greek texts agree with
the verse wordings of the Byzantine or Textus Receptus type Greek text
more than with the Alexandrian or Westcott-Hort type Greek text.

"Sturz concludes, "In view of the above, it is concluded that the
papyri supply valid evidence that distinctively Byzantine readings
were not created in the fourth century but were already in existence
before the end of the second century and that, because of this,
Byzantine readings merit serious consideration" (p.69).""

from

Part 4: Riders of the Wrecking Machine: Alexandarian Gnosticism - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

the importance of the chester beatty papryi and the byzantine text

The Byzantine Text-Type & The Chester Beatty Papyri - SermonAudio.com

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he-man said:

[/COLOR]

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cupid dave said:

But the verse in your signature is well known as a medieval insertion that did not appear earlier Bibles.

"1 John 5:7 (KJV)
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one"

Hence we must consider that this verse is more a testimony to what was understood at the time to be the unanimous interpretation of the Gospels in regard to Trinity.

I believe that St John did mean this statement to be the essence of what he passed down, and see it as a summation of John 14 or a synopsis of what John was actually saying.

In that sense only it is a translation into our present language of what is actually meant:

​

[FONT='ArialMT','sans-serif']TRINITY:[/FONT]
[FONT='ArialMT','sans-serif']Our (1) Lord is Truth, in whose (2) Spirit of mind we must commit our lives, in order to face (3) Father Nature, The Almighty, Reality, within which we all exist.[/FONT]
[FONT='ArialMT','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='ArialMT','sans-serif']in other words, all the present translations of the Gospels conatin numerous inferences, albeit less obvious, that are esentially insertions when collectively examined.[/FONT]
[FONT='ArialMT','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='ArialMT','sans-serif']It IS by choice of word meaning from the long list of synonyms available that a total sum effect is suggest a particular point of view not necessarily directly stated in earlier manuscripts.[/FONT]
[FONT='ArialMT','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='ArialMT','sans-serif']An example would be the reluctance of the early translators to acknowledge that certain esoteric arts such a Kabbalah or Persian/Chaldean astrologies have so place in the message to us forwarded in the scriptures. [/FONT]

​

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gradyll said:

How can it be an addition if it's quoted throughout history?1 John 5:7-9 (trinity verse) in early christian writings

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he-man said:

throughout history? You mean not eariler than the 10th Century?
The Johannine Comma

(1 John 5:7-8)

The genuineness of this text has been called in question by some, because it is wanting in the Syriac version, as it also is in the Arabic and Ethiopic versions; and because the old Latin interpreter has it not;

and it is not to be found in many Greek manuscripts; nor cited by many of the ancient fathers, even by such who wrote against the Arians, when it might have been of great service to them: to all which it may be replied, that as to the Syriac version, which is the most ancient, and of the greatest consequence, it is but a version, and a defective one.

These extra words: [ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ Πατήρ, ὁ Λόγος, καὶ τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα· καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἔν εἰσι. 8 καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῇ γῇ]
are generally absent from the Greek manuscripts. In fact, they only appear in the text of four late [16th Century] medieval manuscripts.

6 ουτοϲ εϲτιν ο ελθων δια υδατοϲ και αιματοϲ και πνϲ ιϲ χϲ ουκ εν τω υδατι μονον αλλ εν τω ϋδατι και τω αιματι και το πνα εϲτιν το μαρτυρουν οτι το πνα εϲτιν η αληθεια
7 οτι οι τρειϲ ειϲιν οι μαρτυρουτεϲ
8 το πνα και το ϋδωρ και το αιμα και οι τρειϲ ειϲ το εν ειϲιν

6 This is he that came through water and blood, Jesus Christ: not in the water only, but in the water and in the blood; and it is the Spirit that testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7 For they that testify are three,
8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are one.

1Jn 5:6 This is he who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify
8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three agree (ESV)


The passage is absent from every known Greek manuscript except eight, and these contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from a late recension of the Latin Vulgate. Four of the eight manuscripts contain the passage as a variant reading written in the margin as a later addition to the manuscript.

The eight manuscripts are as follows:
•61: sixteenth century codex Montfortianus,
•88: fourteenth-century a variant reading in a sixteenth century hand, added to the codex Regius of Naples.
•221: tenth-century a variant reading added to a manuscript in the Bodleian Library at Oxford.
•429: sixteenth-century a variant reading added to a manuscript at Wolfenbüttel.
•629: a fourteenth or fifteenth century manuscript in the Vatican.
•636: sixteenth-century a variant reading added to a manuscript at Naples.
•918: sixteenth-century manuscript at the Escorial, Spain.
•2318: eighteenth-century manuscript, influenced by the Clementine Vulgate, at Bucharest, Rumania.

The passage is quoted by none of the Greek Fathers, who, had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian).

Its first appearance is in 1215 A.D. is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lateran Council

The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions:

(Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic), except the Latin;
and it is not found (a) in the Old Latin in its early form (Tertullian Cyprian Augustine),
or in the Vulgate [copied a.d. 541-46](b) as issued by Jerome (codex Fuldensis
and codex [copied before a.d. 716] Amiatinus
or (c) as revised [ninth century] by Alcuin (first hand of codex Vallicellianus
The Johannine Comma

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gradyll said:

notice the second line of your post "not quoted by many " meaning that there are some of very good report that DID quote it! My next question is why or how did they make up the same imaginary verse that erasmus did when the KJV was being written?

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he-man said:

and these contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from a late recension of the Latin Vulgate

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gradyll said:

The second argument of the CT scholars is the claim the Byzantine text-type originated "late" (i.e. after the third century). Carson writes, "There is no unambiguous evidence that the Byzantine text-type was known before the middle of the fourth century."On the other hand, the CT people point to several second and third century papyri which reflect the Alexandrian text-type (Metzger, p.xxix). ""The most important of these discoveries was several Egyptian papyri.
Sturz lists "150 distinctively Byzantine readings" found in these
papyri. Included in his list are papyri numbers 13, 45, 46, 47, 49,
59, 66, 72, 74, and 75 (pp.61, 145-159).

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he-man said:

The passage is quoted by none of the Greek Fathers, who, had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian).

if you notice that the part of the verse that is missing in many bibles is the part that says this

"three are one"

if you do a Bible search this phrase will not come up accept in 1 John 5:7-9

and this phrase was added after the 10th century?

We need to do our homework here, and this guy that documented the below did do his homework...


1 John 5:7-9 (trinity verse) in early christian writings

and cyprian (one who quoted copiously and textually in the 3rd Century)

"The Lord says "I and the Father are one" and likewise it is written of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. "And these three are one.""


168 A.D. Theophilus used the word "trinity" in his letter to Autolycus. Written in Greek. Theophilus became bishop of Antioch.

177 A.D. A writing in Greek---Anti-Nicene Fathers Apologia of Athenagoras presented to Roman emperors. "Who, then, would not be ashamed to hear men speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their distinction in order."

215 A.D. (25:1; CC2, 1195) Tertullian. Adversus Praxean per RB "And so the connection of the Father, and the Son, and of the Paraclete makes three cohering entities, one cohering from the other, which three are one entity" refers to the unity of their substance, not to the oneness of their number.

250 AD - Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians. Note that Cyprian is quoting and says "IT IS WRITTEN, And the three are One." He lived from 180 to 250 A.D. and the scriptures he had at that time contained the verse in question. This is at least 100 years before anything we have today in the Greek copies. If it wasn't part of Holy Scripture, then where did he see it WRITTEN?
350 AD - Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]
350 AD - Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]
350 AD - Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione
398 AD - Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism
415 AD - Council of Carthage. The contested verse (1 John 5:7) is quoted at the Council of Carthage (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of faith for the "orthodox." It reads with the King James. How did 350 prelates in 415 A.D. take a verse to be orthodox that wasn't in the Bible? It had to exist there from the beginning. It was quoted as "Pater, VERBUM, et Spiritus Sanctus".
450-530 AD. Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"
B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]

450 A.D. Anchor Bible; Epistle of John, 782 Contra Varimadum 1.5 (CC90,20-21) "And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, The Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one."

450 A.D. De divinis Scripturis suie Speculum
(A collection of statements and precepts drawn from the Old Latin Bible (both Old and New Testaments). It has been attributed to Augustine, but this is not likely. Aland dates it c. 427. Except in editions associated with the Alands, it is usually cited as m of the Old Latin. In Paul at least, the text seems to be generally more primitive than the European Latin of the bilingual uncials. In the Catholics, it has many links with the text of Priscillian.)
Latin MS, also known as "m" "and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one."note: this manuscript also included Acts 8:37

484 A.D. Victor of Vita Historia persecutionis Africanae prov. 2.82[3.11], CSEL7, 60

485 A.D. Victor Vitensis Historia persecutionis Africanae Provinciae 3.11 in PL58, 227C per RB "there are three which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one."

500 A.D. Beuron 64 known as "r". (Sometimes labeled CODEX MONACENSIS) CODEX FREISINGENSIS "and the three are one which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, and the Word, and the Holy Spirit and these three are one."

527 A.D. FULGENTIUS
(Considered, after Amiatinus, the best Vulgate manuscript. Copied for and corrected by Victor of Capua. Italian text. The Gospels are in the form of a harmony (probably based on an Old Latin original, and with scattered Old Latin
readings). Includes the Epistle to the Laodiceans.)
Responsio contra Arianos (Ad 10, CC 91) RB "there are three who bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit. And the three are one being."

527 A.D. FULGENTIUS Contra Fabianum (frag. 21.4: CC 91A, 797) "There are three who bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Son and the Spirit. And the three are one being."

527 A.D. FULGENTIUS De Trinitate(1.4.1; CC91A 636), per RB "There are three who bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one being."
pre 550 A.D. JEROME prologue to the Catholic Epistles. "Preserved in the Codex Fuldensis (PL 29, 827-31)." per RB. Jerome writes in his prologue that the Comma (1John5:7-8) is genuine but has been omitted by unfaithful translators.

570 A.D. CASSIODORUS Complexionn. in Epistt. Paulinn. "Moreover, in heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one God."

583 A.D. CASSIODORUS In Epistolam S. Joannis ad Parthos. (10.5.1; PL 70, 1373A) employs "Son" in place of "Word." NOTE: Cassiodorus cited the Comma in his commentary.

636 A.D. ISIDORE of SEVILLE Testimonia divinae Scripturae 2[PL, 83, 1203C] per RB. "And there are three which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and the three are one."

650 A.D. The Leon Palimpsest, also known as "Legionensis" or Beuron 67 CODEX PAL LEGIONENSIS "and there are three which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, and the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus."

700 A.D. JAQUB of EDESSA On the Holy Eucharistic Mysteries, Syriac document "The soul and the body and the mind which are sanctified through three holy things; through water and blood and Spirit, and through the Father and the Son and the Spirit."

735 A.D. The year of the decease of Venerable Bede manuscript E (also known as Basiliensis), Greek. Located: Basel, Switzerland. Université Bibliothèque note: this manuscript also included Acts 8:37

750 A.D. harl 2 (also known as "z2" or Harleianus) Latin MS, Beuron 65, Latin Vulgate Bible all the Epistles (that to the Colossians following 2 Thessalonians and 1 John 5 - Jude crowded onto one leaf.)

850 A.D. The Ulmensis manuscript or "U" "Caroline minuscule" hand. Includes Laodiceans. Now in the British Museum. "Likewise, in heaven there are three, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and the three are one."

913 - 923 A.D. "leon 1" or Lemovicensis (dated it in the time of Ordogno II (913-923) Latin MS of the Cathedral of Leon "is a specimen of the Visigoth miniscule, and contains 1 John 5:7 - 8 in varied form."

930 A.D. Church of S. Isidore in Leon Latin MS designated as "leon 2" 1 John 5:7 - 8 is found only in the margin.

988 A.D. CODEX TOLETANUS or "T" Latin MS Note: also contains Acts 8:37a, 8:37 b, 9:5, 9:6 and 1 John 5:7.
Along with cav, the leading representative of the Spanish text. Among the earliest witnesses for "1 John 5:7-8," which it possesses in modified form. Written in a Visigothic hand, it was not new when it was given to the see of Seville in 988.

1120 A.D. An exposition of the Apostle's Creed used by the Waldenses and Albigensians "There are three that bear witness in heaven; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one."

1150 A.D. CODEX DEMIDOVIANUS Latin MS Note: contained also Acts 8:37 and 1 John 5:7 - 8.

1150 A.D. CODEX COLBERTINUS written in Languedoc, Old Latin Same as the Old Latin c of the Gospels. Often cited as Old Latin elsewhere, but the text is vulgate. The two sections are separately bound and in different hands. The Vulgate portion of the text is considered to be French.

above from

1john57

Its first appearance is in 1215 A.D. is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lateran Council

The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions:

(Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic), except the Latin;
and it is not found (a) in the Old Latin in its early form (Tertullian Cyprian Augustine),
or in the Vulgate [copied a.d. 541-46](b) as issued by Jerome (codex Fuldensis
and codex [copied before a.d. 716] Amiatinus
or (c) as revised [ninth century] by Alcuin (first hand of codex Vallicellianus
The Johannine Comma

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most manuscripts are incomplete. Only one I believe is said to have most of the Bible, rest are one book here, one book there. Many of the earliest manuscripts left out revelation and james and 1 John entirely because of the doctrine they disagreed with in those books. So you really have to do your homework here.

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he-man said:

it is not found (a) in the Old Latin in its early form.
The passage is absent from every known Greek manuscript except eight, and these contain the passage But none of them contain the "Spurious" 1 Jn 5:7, and most are only fragments in what appears to be a translation from a late recension of the Latin Vulgate. Four of the eight manuscripts contain the passage as a variant reading written in the margin as a later addition to the manuscript.

The eight manuscripts are as follows:
•61: sixteenth century codex Montfortianus,
•88: fourteenth-century a variant reading in a sixteenth century hand, added to the codex Regius of Naples.
•221: tenth-century a variant reading added to a manuscript in the Bodleian Library at Oxford.
•429: sixteenth-century a variant reading added to a manuscript at Wolfenbüttel.
•629: a fourteenth or fifteenth century manuscript in the Vatican.
•636: sixteenth-century a variant reading added to a manuscript at Naples.
•918: sixteenth-century manuscript at the Escorial, Spain.
•2318: eighteenth-century manuscript, influenced by the Clementine Vulgate, at Bucharest, Rumania.

The passage is quoted by none of the Greek Fathers, who, had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian).

Its first appearance is in 1215 A.D. is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lateran Council

The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions:

(Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic), except the Latin;
and it is not found (a) in the Old Latin in its early form (Tertullian Cyprian Augustine),
or in the Vulgate [copied a.d. 541-46](b) as issued by Jerome (codex Fuldensis
and codex [copied before a.d. 716] Amiatinus
or (c) as revised [ninth century] by Alcuin (first hand of codex Vallicellianus
The Johannine Comma

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gradyll said:

if you notice that the part of the verse that is missing in many bibles is the part that says this "three are one" if you do a Bible search this phrase will not come up accept in 1 John 5:7-9 and this phrase was added after the 10th century? and cyprian (one who quoted copiously and textually in the 3rd Century)

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gradyll said:

most manuscripts are incomplete. Only one I believe is said to have most of the Bible, rest are one book here, one book there. Many of the earliest manuscripts left out revelation and james and 1 John entirely because of the doctrine they disagreed with in those books. So you really have to do your homework here.

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he-man said:

But none of them contain the "Spurious" 1 Jn 5:7,[/COLOR][/U][/B] and most are only fragments [/SIZE]

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gradyll said:

don't you get it, the fragments are non extant that contain the verse. out of the thousands of greek manuscripts only 15 contained first John to begin with. Manuscripts had to exist and I proved it with my last post. You still haven't answered how the phrase "three in one" is quoted if it never existed? Answer that question and this would all be over. You would win the debate.

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gradyll said:

1 John 5:7-9 Yes there are no EARLY manuscripts with it in it.

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