Who is God?

jayem · Feb 1, 2012

bricklayer said:
An author is not held responsible for murder even though his character commits murder.
An author is one person removed from the acts of his characters.

Are we on the same wavelength here?

Example: Macbeth's murder of Duncan was purely a product of Shakespeare's mind. Shakespeare is not morally responsible for an actual killing. This murder exists only in the imagination. But only because Shakespeare created it. This is the sense in which he's responsible.

It's not that hard a concept.

P.S. But in a real life situation, if I hire a hit man to kill my wife, I'm gonna have to anwer for it. I may be one person removed from the crime, but I'm equally, if not even more, responsible. In both a legal and moral sense. Right?

AlexBP · Feb 1, 2012

Doubt3312 said:
To respond to jpcedotal, it is not simply a choice between God and "self." Many people choose God - not only Christians, but also Muslims, Jews, Hindus (god(s) in their case), etc.. They want a relationship with God just as strongly as any Christian does. They also have legitimate experiences that convince them of their religious "path." Yet, christianity asserts that to die as anything other than a christian is to deserve hell.

When exactly did Christianity assert this? Please be specific.

bricklayer · Feb 1, 2012

Lynxxus said:
I know for a fact that God created us with free will. That said, he also foresee's everything that will happen. So even though we have the right of free will, God has already seen and planned what will happen ahead of time. Meaning...if you choose to murder, rather then just walk away, then God had seen that coming.

You are correct.
Everything that happens happens because God is willing that it happens, actively willing that it happens.
God is necessary; everything else is contingent.

bricklayer · Feb 1, 2012

jayem said:
Are we on the same wavelength here?

Example: Macbeth's murder of Duncan was purely a product of Shakespeare's mind. Shakespeare is not morally responsible for an actual killing. This murder exists only in the imagination. But only because Shakespeare created it. This is the sense in which he's responsible.

It's not that hard a concept.

P.S. But in a real life situation, if I hire a hit man to kill my wife, I'm gonna have to anwer for it. I may be one person removed from the crime, but I'm equally, if not even more, responsible. In both a legal and moral sense. Right?

From the feel of your post I get the feeling that you believe that we disagree, but the actual content of your post is in complete agreement with everything I've writen above.

Doubt3312 · Feb 2, 2012

AlexBP said:
When exactly did Christianity assert this? Please be specific.

"Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

I've been told by many Christians that the only way to heaven is to accept Christ and the holy spirit into your heart...
Are you implying that Christianity is not exclusive?

The Paul · Feb 2, 2012

bricklayer said:
From the feel of your post I get the feeling that you believe that we disagree, but the actual content of your post is in complete agreement with everything I've writen above.

Except for the part where you claimed authors aren't responsible for the acts of their characters...

...but maybe you're just looking out for my well-being, yeah? I might have a heart attack if a theologian were to talk straight.

bricklayer · Feb 3, 2012

The Paul said:
Except for the part where you claimed authors aren't responsible for the acts of their characters...

...but maybe you're just looking out for my well-being, yeah? I might have a heart attack if a theologian were to talk straight.

Authors are not held responsible for the acts of their characters.
Is the author of a murder mystery held responsible for murder?
An author is one person removed from the acts of her characters;
the Creator is one person removed from sin.

Tuddrussell · Feb 3, 2012

This all depends on whether you have a Watsonian or Doylist viewpoint.

quatona · Feb 3, 2012

bricklayer said:
Authors are not held responsible for the acts of their characters.
Is the author of a murder mystery held responsible for murder?

Is the person who was conceived by the author to be the murderer held responsible for the murder conceived by the author - and does it make any sense for the author to hold his character responsible for his own conceptions?

I have asked you before: Who, in your analogy, is rightfully being held responsible for the murder by whom?

You refused to answer. I think we both know why that is.

bricklayer · Feb 3, 2012

quatona said:
Is the person who was conceived by the author to be the murderer held responsible for the murder conceived by the author - and does it make any sense for the author to hold his character responsible for his own conceptions

I have asked you before: Who, in your analogy, is rightfully being held responsible for the murder by whom?

The actor is the responsible party.
An act is triune having: intent-affect-effect.

bdennis · Feb 3, 2012

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent, Acts 17:30". "Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth John 9:31". "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the pleasure of his will Ephesians 1:5". Every one who thinks they are a sinner, and that there is freewill (one word) should change their mind (repent) and believe the gospel, if not God has a very hard row for you to hoe. " For whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin: for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God 1 John 3:9". "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him 1 John 3:6". He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning, for this purpose the Son of God was manifest, that he might destory the works of the devil 1 John 3:8". Peace, love, understanding, and everyone is born of God, He is the saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. Barry :bow:

The Paul · Feb 3, 2012

bricklayer said:
Authors are not held responsible for the acts of their characters.

Check out a fan-forum for some popular work of fiction in which a fan-favorite character is murdered. Who do the fans rail against?

Theology may teach you to believe all sorts of things, but in the real world people consider authors responsible for the actions of their characters.

bricklayer said:
Is the author of a murder mystery held responsible for murder?

Alright, so there's a couple of ways things might work that allow us to not consider the author of a murder mystery to be guilty of murder.

One possibility is that the death of a fictional character is generally not considered to be a tragedy or a loss of any note. No reaction is warranted. No one is punished for it because no crime has been committed.

Another possibility is that the murder of a fictional character is actually a serious crime and if someone could reasonably be held responsible for it we would have trials and sentences, people would go to jail for it, but since we're not the author we can't act against the guilty parties, which are the characters who committed the murder and not the author.

Are you going to pretend you're stupid enough to claim it's the second one?

The Paul · Feb 3, 2012

Oh wow, I'm reading backwards.

bricklayer · Feb 5, 2012

The Paul said:
Check out a fan-forum for some popular work of fiction in which a fan-favorite character is murdered. Who do the fans rail against?

Theology may teach you to believe all sorts of things, but in the real world people consider authors responsible for the actions of their characters.

Alright, so there's a couple of ways things might work that allow us to not consider the author of a murder mystery to be guilty of murder.

One possibility is that the death of a fictional character is generally not considered to be a tragedy or a loss of any note. No reaction is warranted. No one is punished for it because no crime has been committed.

Another possibility is that the murder of a fictional character is actually a serious crime and if someone could reasonably be held responsible for it we would have trials and sentences, people would go to jail for it, but since we're not the author we can't act against the guilty parties, which are the characters who committed the murder and not the author.

Are you going to pretend you're stupid enough to claim it's the second one?

You so easily dismiss the death of a fictional character.
An author is finite, and so is her character; the difference between them is finite.
The Creator is infinite, but His creatures are finite; the difference between them is infinite.
Whatever right an author has to do with her characters as she wishes, God has without limit toward His creatures.

The Paul · Feb 6, 2012

bricklayer said:
You so easily dismiss the death of a fictional character.
An author is finite, and so is her character; the difference between them is finite.
The Creator is infinite, but His creatures are finite; the difference between them is infinite.
Whatever right an author has to do with her characters as she wishes, God has without limit toward His creatures.

You're not being entirely clear. Are you switching your argument to "The death of a human is no significant loss" or "Might makes right"? Both are totally different arguments than "authors are not responsible for the actions of their characters."

They're all nonsense, and no one gives either one the slightest bit of credence in the real world, but try to keep in mind which one you're championing, at least.

Doubt3312 · Feb 6, 2012

Why is everyone so stuck on this author analogy?
Let's skip the metaphor...
God supposedly creates each individual. Say that I, an individual, murder another individual. Who's responsible for the action, me or the creator?
I'd say both...
God may not have "made me do it," but he made me want to. Is that fair that I take all the blame?

The Paul · Feb 6, 2012

Doubt3312 said:
God may not have "made me do it," but he made me want to. Is that fair that I take all the blame?

It depends on assorted metaphysical stuff like the nature/existence of free will and this contingent/necessary business.

Blame could lay entirely one way or entirely the other, depending.

Doubt3312 · Feb 7, 2012

Even if you believe in free will, the only reason I "choose" to sin is because that sinful nature already exists within me.

This is where people tend to argue that mankind chose to be sinful; that God didn't make us sinful. Usually this is in reference to original sin, and Adam's choice to eat the apple after Eve. But even in this scenario the same problem still exists - instead of God designing our nature, we inherit it from the choice of a person we have no connection with. There is no personal control. The sinful "nature" precedes the individual's existence, so how can the individual be responsible for it?

Also there's the issue of whether or not God foreknew this would happen, which you mentioned.

bricklayer · Feb 7, 2012

God chose to have man sin and then to save man from sin.
God holds man responsible for his own sins.
God does not hold Himself responsible for man's sins.

Apparently, God also chose to have some fools hold God responsible for man's sin.

The way I see it, there are two types of people in this world:
those who are examples of God's grace with the objects of His mercy,
and those who are examples of God's patience with the objects of His wrath.

Doubt3312 · Feb 8, 2012

That's a simplistic view.

Beware those who construct the world in binaries... They are the witch burners, crusaders, suicide bombers, and cool-aid drinkers.

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