Why physicists can't avoid a creator

Phred

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But if you want to know how physics has proved the existence of an omnisicent and omnipotent God, the absolute speed of light attests to it quite clearly. How else would light always hit your back at its absolute speed while you are both moving in the same direction, irrespective of the speed at which you are travelling. What's more its reference-frame is clearly exogenous to space-time, even though the former is claimed to be a vacuum.
Wow... the ignorance parade continues. So because you don't understand how something works that's evidence of a god? And space-time is claimed to be a vacuum? Space is a near vacuum. Space-time is a concept that is simply space with an extra dimension. How it's vacuumness applies to being a reference frame for light is... what? That just makes no sense at all.

You don't know what space-time is, although I suspect you might have seen a NOVA program that mentioned it once.

You have no idea why light moves at the same speed so you imagine what exactly, the hand of God reaching down and altering our instruments? Pushing one light beam faster than the other? How in the world does this prove the existence of a god? Or fairies? Or chocolate cake?

The point of light maintaining it's speed regardless of the viewer's reference frame is that the other variables in the equations must shift, not light.

I'm not even going to try and explain it past that. There is no point. You simply want there to be a god and you'll do anything to have that happen. So you find it. Everywhere and anywhere. No need for facts.
 
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Split Rock

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Split Rock

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1) That the cosmologist explained why the universe had to have a beginning. That, in itself, NECESSARILY implies an ominiscient and omnipotent Creator.

This is nothing but an assertion. Can you provide us with evidence that your god has no beginning, btw?
 
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paul becke

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Phred

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quatona

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Anything that has a beginning requires a cause outside of itself.
Surely, this is an observation we keep making within our universe.
Another observation (that, once we claim observation within our universe to be cut in stone rules even beyond the scope of our universe, would have to be a cut in stone rule as well): non-physical stuff doesn´t create physical stuff, IOW physical objects require a physical cause.
 
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FrenchyBearpaw

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"I wasnt aware this thorny question could be answered by invoking the hand of a supernatural creator, unless we mistake the non-answer of "goddidit" as an actual answer even though it tells you absolutely nothing thus not answering the question."

Well, for the present perhaps the scientific certainty that the universe had a beginning will be a step in the right direction. Although how you can imagine that the world just emerged from nothing, as well as designing itself, eludes me completely.
Why does the eternal existence of a supernatural being not elude you as well?
 
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Sweet Tea

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You might benefit from a course in logic if you are suggesting that something can be it's own cause. How can something which does not exist, cause itself to come into existence? You cannot get something from nothing.
Explain to us how God goes about doing this, then. How exactly does he create time.
 
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WarriorAngel

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not at all, simply have a cosmic microwave oven pop out each universe slightly different and given enough time every possible seemingly 'complex design' would be achieved by a simple 'random' process . Sure some universes would probably collapse but thats not important.

Most who do not believe - live inside a box. They cannot see outside the box, ergo they are not going to follow that an intelligence is the only answer as to how they have intelligence.

It's a typical argument that reverberated since the inception of one man's opinion.

Someone would have had to create the microwave. :wave:
Nothing alas - always begets nothing.
If you disagree, you must prove otherwise.

And do you wish to base your death only on what you can tangibly see or feel? Yet without an Intelligent Being, you would not feel or see. Not exist. Unless some cosmic mishap gave you your intelligence, I on the other hand got mine from an Intelligent Being.
 
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CabVet

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They cannot see outside the box, ergo they are not going to follow that an intelligence is the only answer as to how they have intelligence.

Incredible how people still use that argument when it is the most effective one against the existence of God. If everything has to have a designer, who designed the designer?
 
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WarriorAngel

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Now i will demonstrate why Christianity is logical.

IF it was man made, and God did not exist, then man certainly would not have made his rules so difficult to follow.
The average person would like to experiment and fornicate. They would like to be angry when they want and how much they want. Grudges are certainly easier than forgiveness. Marital fidelity and monogamy are not really as easy as it looks either.

In fact - every Christian law did not come from one person, but 40 authors - numbers of prophets, and several prophesies being fulfilled.

Christ fulfilled the OT - and if you are a mathematician you would know the improbability of fulfilling 300 prophesies - most of which pertain to His death which He did not control.

Is it possible? The probabilities say not. For someone to accidentally or deliberately do that, it wouldn't work out. Something to ponder.

So if there is no God and all these men created the Judaic - Christian religion since the beginning - you would think they would have completely messed up the prophesies...and well, they would not have been completed. Not only that - but please explain HOW any man - anyone would derive any power or mind control over making others better towards their neighbors?

Saying religion - Christianity specifically or solely - is transient, it would have long ago been left behind with so many other false practices. If there was no visual of Christ - and the law coming to fruition - it would have been impossible again - to convert anyone - let alone 3000 the first day the Apostles went out to speak and not in one language but each person heard - in their own language. The impossibility was the miracle that converted 3000. Think about that.

The laws of Christianity are so difficult, if it were not, everyone would be Christian. Easy is the typical desire - which Christianity is not.

If it were easy, i daresay we would have no atheists.
 
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CabVet

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Now i will demonstrate why Christianity is logical.

IF it was man made, and God did not exist, then man certainly would not have made his rules so difficult to follow.
The average person would like to experiment and fornicate. They would like to be angry when they want and how much they want. Grudges are certainly easier than forgiveness. Marital fidelity and monogamy are not really as easy as it looks either.

In fact - every Christian law did not come from one person, but 40 authors - numbers of prophets, and several prophesies being fulfilled.

Christ fulfilled the OT - and if you are a mathematician you would know the improbability of fulfilling 300 prophesies - most of which pertain to His death which He did not control.

Is it possible? The probabilities say not. For someone to accidentally or deliberately do that, it wouldn't work out. Something to ponder.

So if there is no God and all these men created the Judaic - Christian religion since the beginning - you would think they would have completely messed up the prophesies...and well, they would not have been completed. Not only that - but please explain HOW any man - anyone would derive any power or mind control over making others better towards their neighbors?

Saying religion - Christianity specifically or solely - is transient, it would have long ago been left behind with so many other false practices. If there was no visual of Christ - and the law coming to fruition - it would have been impossible again - to convert anyone - let alone 3000 the first day the Apostles went out to speak and not in one language but each person heard - in their own language. The impossibility was the miracle that converted 3000. Think about that.

The laws of Christianity are so difficult, if it were not, everyone would be Christian. Easy is the typical desire - which Christianity is not.

If it were easy, i daresay we would have no atheists.

Now I will demonstrate, with a lot less words, why Christianity is not logical.

You can say the exact same thing about 1,000 other religions.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Other religions are much easier.
Fornication, adultery, anger, self sacrifice not for self but for others, etc are not the common threads of religion. This is unique to Christianity.

Christians are called to do good works for others at all times including forgiveness even when it is the most difficult.

Of course - you didnt read what i said or you would have seen how the others cannot compete with the 300 fulfilled prophesies.

NOT TO MENTION no other god has talked to the other groups. Unless we count turning a person into a god because he had sage advice but did not fulfill any prophesies from many others about himself.
 
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CabVet

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Other religions are much easier.
Fornication, adultery, anger, self sacrifice not for self but for others, etc are not the common threads of religion. This is unique to Christianity.

None of this is unique to Christianity. If the degree of difficulty is what demonstrates a religion to be "true", both Judaism and Islam are "more true" than Christianity.
 
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CabVet

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Of course - you didnt read what i said or you would have seen how the others cannot compete with the 300 fulfilled prophesies.

NOT TO MENTION no other god has talked to the other groups. Unless we count turning a person into a god because he had sage advice but did not fulfill any prophesies from many others about himself.

Nostradamus can certainly compete with that.
 
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WarriorAngel

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None of this is unique to Christianity. If the degree of difficulty is what demonstrates a religion to be "true", both Judaism and Islam are "more true" than Christianity.

Islam is man made because it benefits the self.
It does not benefit the other person.

Apparently you havent read it.
 
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CabVet

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Islam is man made because it benefits the self.
It does not benefit the other person.

Apparently you havent read it.

Who says it has to benefit the other person to be "Godly"? Oh, I know the answer to that, your book. Might as well just say "Islam is man made because it does not follow the Bible".
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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Now i will demonstrate why Christianity is logical.

IF it was man made, and God did not exist, then man certainly would not have made his rules so difficult to follow.
The average person would like to experiment and fornicate. They would like to be angry when they want and how much they want. Grudges are certainly easier than forgiveness. Marital fidelity and monogamy are not really as easy as it looks either.

This would be a stronger argument for Islam than Christianity. Islam is far more strict when it comes to morality.

In fact - every Christian law did not come from one person, but 40 authors - numbers of prophets, and several prophesies being fulfilled.

Christ fulfilled the OT - and if you are a mathematician you would know the improbability of fulfilling 300 prophesies - most of which pertain to His death which He did not control.

Is it possible? The probabilities say not. For someone to accidentally or deliberately do that, it wouldn't work out. Something to ponder.

The authors of the New Testament had the old prophecies before them. It would have been very easy to write the stories to fit the old prophecies. Kind of like how Jesus' parents take him to Bethlehem for that census that never actually occurred. It was a strained effort to fulfill a prophecy.

Saying religion - Christianity specifically or solely - is transient, it would have long ago been left behind with so many other false practices.

Hinduism and Buddhism are far older than Christianity. If you're going to pull on age as evidence those have Christianity beat.

If there was no visual of Christ - and the law coming to fruition - it would have been impossible again - to convert anyone - let alone 3000 the first day the Apostles went out to speak and not in one language but each person heard - in their own language. The impossibility was the miracle that converted 3000. Think about that.

So how did Scientology get so many followers, if only legit religions get adherents? Also, you can't use the Bible as evidence that the Bible is right.

The laws of Christianity are so difficult, if it were not, everyone would be Christian. Easy is the typical desire - which Christianity is not.

What are the "Christian laws" other than accepting Christ as Lord and Savior? It's not like Judaism with a whole code of conduct. Jesus and Paul just give out some advice here and there. Never are there any details on what should be done and the punishment if you don't do it, other than following Christ in the first place.

It's a very open-ended faith, which is one reason why it is so popular. You believe it's super-strict because your pastor tells you not to fornicate. In reality, Christianity is hardly the most strict religion out there.

If it were easy, i daresay we would have no atheists.

The difficulty is not what made me an atheist. The absurdity was.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Now i will demonstrate why Christianity is logical.

IF it was man made, and God did not exist, then man certainly would not have made his rules so difficult to follow.
On the contrary, yes he would, and we can prove this by looking at known man-made systems: finance, politics, etc. These are phenomenally complex, for good or ill, because that is the nature of the system. Similarly, if a religion has complex rules to follow, that's simply the nature of the system, and neither proves nor disproves the system.

The average person would like to experiment and fornicate. They would like to be angry when they want and how much they want. Grudges are certainly easier than forgiveness. Marital fidelity and monogamy are not really as easy as it looks either.
Nonetheless, people know why fornication has its downsides, people know why monogamy is lauded, people know why forgiveness is preferable to vindication. They may be easier, but anyone who's not a child quickly learns the value of being forgiving, etc. This doesn't come from religion, but sheer life experience.

In fact - every Christian law did not come from one person, but 40 authors - numbers of prophets, and several prophesies being fulfilled.

Christ fulfilled the OT - and if you are a mathematician you would know the improbability of fulfilling 300 prophesies - most of which pertain to His death which He did not control.

Is it possible? The probabilities say not. For someone to accidentally or deliberately do that, it wouldn't work out. Something to ponder.
Not really. First, you're assuming the prophecies were fulfilled at all - since there's little to no evidence that Jesus ever existed, let alone did the things he was alleged to have done, you're jumping the shark somewhat.

Second, the 'prophecies' largely fall into one of three categories:

  • 'Self-fulfilling'. That people believe in a prophecy causes it to be fulfilled, rather than any supernatural effect. For instance, Matthew states that Jesus is the prophecised Immanuel, and this is used to tick off the 'Immanuel' prophecy - but Matthew only called Jesus that because it was prophesied. Matthew orchestrates events so that Jesus fulfils the prophecy - it is self-fulfilling. Another clear example is modern Israel - the prophecy of the Jews returning to Israel is what led to the creation of Israel in the modern era.
  • 'Unfulfilled'. Of the various prophecies attributed to Jesus, a large chunk of them have yet to be fulfilled.
  • 'Fake'. This includes things Jesus referring to a scriptural prophecy in the Old Testament so that he can fulfil it - yet the prophecy doesn't exist. It also includes prophecies that preachers claim to be another ticked box for Jesus - but actually were events relating to someone else entirely (for instance, Matthew in Matthew 27 claims Psalm 22 refers to Jesus, yet it a) refers to David, and b) was never meant to be a prophecy at all).
Essentially, you have a book called "Porky tries to fly". In Chapter One, it says "... and later we shall see that the Porky the Pig did indeed succeed in flying". In Chapter Two, Porky the Pig flies. Does this qualify as a supernatural prophecy? No, of course not - the 'prophecy' is fulfilled in the second chapter, not because it was ordained by God, but because the book is a work of fiction, with the writer(s) making it up as they go along.

If you want to go down the prophecy route, fine, but there is a wealth of material to discuss, and I predict it won't end well for you.

So if there is no God and all these men created the Judaic - Christian religion since the beginning - you would think they would have completely messed up the prophesies...and well, they would not have been completed. Not only that - but please explain HOW any man - anyone would derive any power or mind control over making others better towards their neighbors?
Not all religious values are abhorrent. The Qu'ran says mercy and love are traits of Allah, the Bible says to love one's neighbour, etc. Nonetheless, these are firmly embedded in a tyrannical system - in Christianity, one must love one's neighbour or burn in Hell! One must love God with all your heart or burn in Hell! It's certainly nice advice to love one's neighbour, but it loses all virtue when you force people to love one another at gunpoint.

Saying religion - Christianity specifically or solely - is transient, it would have long ago been left behind with so many other false practices. If there was no visual of Christ - and the law coming to fruition - it would have been impossible again - to convert anyone - let alone 3000 the first day the Apostles went out to speak and not in one language but each person heard - in their own language. The impossibility was the miracle that converted 3000. Think about that.
Even if we assume that that event took place (and I'd like to see proof that it did), you're presupposing that there's not a natural explanation, that the only explanation is "Goddidit". Sadly, no: people are gullible, even moreso 2000 years ago. People saw famine and volcanoes and thunder as clear and obvious proof of the gods, people weren't sceptical or critical - missionaries had a much easier time back then, don't you think? In any case, a good missionary, a charismatic and enthusiastic man, could convince people back then of anything - they just didn't know better.

Nowadays, we scoff at televangelists and their blatant falsehoods, at psychics and mediums and their obvious cold reading, but that's because we're so much more well-informed nowadays. Back then, I'm not surprised 3000 people could be converted on the spot. The whole of the Middle-East was converted to Islam in short order. Whole countries could change religious allegiance depending on who was King or Queen.

3000 people? Not impressive, and more easily and more likely explained by natural causes.

The laws of Christianity are so difficult, if it were not, everyone would be Christian. Easy is the typical desire - which Christianity is not.

If it were easy, i daresay we would have no atheists.
If your only argument for the truth of a religion is, "Its rules are hard", then Judaism and Islam blow Christianity out of the water - Christianity is easy, all you have to do is love God and your neighbour.

But this is a moot point, since, as discussed above, the difficulty of following a religion is utterly irrelevant to its veracity. I've seen a lot of daft arguments in my time, and, well, this is in the top 10.
 
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