The Rapture

I hear you, John. I really feel for them, because as hard as I've tried to see their point, and I don't mean to appear as a basher, but it's just wishful escapism and not biblical. Sad thing is, as the word does say, they will be refined by fire as He put it and that does not sound pleasant.

The prophesy of Isaiah 5: 1-5 says it all and not only does it refer back to the destruction of Jerusalem 70ad, but is also a type and shadow of the tribulation. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Only a handful will be hidden in the hem of his garments and even then some are tossed back into the fire. That suggests to me that the standards are extremely high.

The pre-trib doctrine, the once saved always saved doctrine, the law of God was nailed to the cross doctrine are all there today as He said they would be.

“I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[g] I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

The whole point of the parable of the ten virgins is also right here. It will be too late to build a relationship with Him at the last hour. He will say I do not know you, not you don't know me. How can He know us if we were never there in prayer with Him as we thought we would be?

One who turns away his ear from hearing the law,
Even his prayer is an abomination.

Proverbs 28:9

The lanterns shed light for the 5 wise virgins, which is the word of God.

Your words are a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. Also said by the Man after God's own heart himself.

The extra oil, the spirit of God? Perhaps wisdom?

But, if I am wrong, then so be it,

I would rather He say to me, "You know thanks for keeping the whole day free for worship between Fri sunset to Saturday sunset, You know you didn't have to do that."

And, you know you didn't have to observe my holy days, you could have worshipped around a christmas tree if you wanted to, and Easter, you know they named that idea after Ishtar the fertility God don't ya? You know, the rabbits eggs thing. But don't worry, I did away with that silly thing I had going about "You shall not worship other Gods and the carved images thing."

Bit melodramatic maybe, but I'd rather Him say that to me, than Him say "Why did you not do what I told you to do?"

I am not so sure you have Irenaeus's intent laid out the way he would want James. A paragraph or so later we have this clearly said.
"For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misaël, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end.

In reading the section you quoted I felt there was room in its language, especially in light of the fact it is a translation, for it to mean the church would indeed be in the midst of tribulation. That point is proven by the above which has a bit more clarity in its reading. Obviously the use of the three friends being tossed into the fiery furnace allegorically cannot be construed as an escape from the final trial of the church at the end of the age via a pre-trib rapture.

One who turns away his ear from hearing the law,
Even his prayer is an abomination.

Proverbs 28:9

The lanterns shed light for the 5 wise virgins, which is the word of God.

Your words are a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. Also said by the Man after God's own heart himself.

The extra oil, the spirit of God? Perhaps wisdom?

But, if I am wrong, then so be it,

I would rather He say to me, "You know thanks for keeping the whole day free for worship between Fri sunset to Saturday sunset, You know you didn't have to do that."

And, you know you didn't have to observe my holy days, you could have worshipped around a christmas tree if you wanted to, and Easter, you know they named that idea after Ishtar the fertility God don't ya? You know, the rabbits eggs thing. But don't worry, I did away with that silly thing I had going about "You shall not worship other Gods and the carved images thing."

Bit melodramatic maybe, but I'd rather Him say that to me, than Him say "Why did you not do what I told you to do?"

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Didn't Paul said that those who tried to keep the Law are bewitched?

“O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?” (Galatians 3:1, NKJV)

and,

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”” (Galatians 3:10, NKJV)

If you break one Law you are guilty of breaking them all, they are inseperable. Thats why its called The Law and not The Laws of Moshe is one view. But Paul did make it clear that those who are bound up by the Law actually hinder their ability to receive miracles from God and he said that was foolish!


“Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?” (Galatians 3:3–5, NKJV)

something to think about.

josephearl said:

I am not so sure you have Irenaeus's intent laid out the way he would want James. A paragraph or so later we have this clearly said.
"For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misaël, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end.

In reading the section you quoted I felt there was room in its language, especially in light of the fact it is a translation, for it to mean the church would indeed be in the midst of tribulation. That point is proven by the above which has a bit more clarity in its reading. Obviously the use of the three friends being tossed into the fiery furnace allegorically cannot be construed as an escape from the final trial of the church at the end of the age via a pre-trib rapture.

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I pointed out that Irenaeus also had the church suffering under the Antichrist. But even if you are right about this, that does not detract from the rest of the quotations I made.

There can be absolutely zero question that the doctrine of the rapture coming before before the great tribulation was clearly taught at least a thousand years before Darby was born.

I will have to read the rest of your post as I stopped at the comment I spoke of and went and searched the chapter out. Them old saints were tough as nails on some stuff. I often have wondered how many 'modern day Roman soldiers' so to speak will meet with Christians who shoot first and ask questions later when they come to drag us off to the lions. The early church records I am familar with seem to indicate a willingness to go meekly unto the most brutal deaths one would dare imagine and that may not be the prevailing heart attitude in much of the USA.

“2 Thessalonians ii. 6–9
“‘And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season. For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of His mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of His coming: even he whose coming is according to the working of Satan.’
“One may naturally enquire, what is that which withholdeth, and after that would know, why Paul expresses it so obscurely. What then is it that withholdeth, that is, hindereth him from being revealed? Some indeed say, the grace of the Spirit, but others the Roman empire, to whom I most of all accede. Wherefore? Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him.” (Homilies on 2 Thessalonians, Homily IV, by John Chrysostom, from Volume XIII of “Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers,” series 2, as translated by James Tweed and edited by Philip Schaff, as found in the American edition edited by Phillip Schaff , and as found online at Welcome to the CCEL | Christian Classics Ethereal Library.)

Although it is strangely stated, this appears to be a saying that some in the day of John of Crysostom were saying that the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2:6 is the Holy Spirit. As this is one of the key elements of the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture, this appears to be evidence that some were teaching this doctrine around the beginning of the fifth century. This is all the more important historically, because the man who mentioned it did not himself believe this doctrine.

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I myself do not come to the same conclusion you have regarding this passage. But can it be safely said that one should assume those who may have considered the church as being raptured pre-trib were in a decided minority? I also think Ireneaus may have been pre-wrath and not mid-trib is just as likely, well more actually if I insert my own opinion into the mix, as I believe pre-wrath fits it all together best.

The whole idea that the Holy Spirit is taken from the earth
when the church is caught up really does not fly theologically. God is omnipresent. He cannot not be someplace as He is everywhere.

and After he looked (Watched) the experience in Revelation 4:1 After this I looked(a door was opened in heaven) Trumpet (Come up hither) The Rapture…

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If that is the rapture, then you don't read your Bible very much in faith, but with dispensational glasses.
That is a huge false assuption on your part, by believing man instead of the pure word of God.
*******
God's word is very clear on the resurrection issue. It happens after the tribulation period.
How can the last trump sound before the first is yet to sound? Preposterous!
Not only is your statement contrary to nature or reason, but it is so way beyond belief, that it is absolutely incredible that one can get hoodwinked into believing things that are clearly spoken against of in the Holy Bible.
*******
You can try to create your own reality if you want, but it will never cancel the truth of God's pure word.
God's word is very clear that the resurrection is at the last day, not seven years before the last day. Good grief!
Compare scripture with scripture and they all agree, 100%. But when the man made myth of Dispensationalism hits the pages, nothing but confusion and every evil work.
*******
Both Jesus and the Apostles were all clearly post trib.
All of the early church fathers were also Post trib. Some of which were disciples of the disciples.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

PeterAV said:

If that is the rapture, then you don't read your Bible very much in faith, but with dispensational glasses.
That is a huge false assuption on your part, by believing man instead of the pure word of God.
*******
God's word is very clear on the resurrection issue. It happens after the tribulation period.
How can the last trump sound before the first is yet to sound? Preposterous!
Not only is your statement contrary to nature or reason, but it is so way beyond belief, that it is absolutely incredible that one can get hoodwinked into believing things that are clearly spoken against of in the Holy Bible.
*******
You can try to create your own reality if you want, but it will never cancel the truth of God's pure word.
God's word is very clear that the resurrection is at the last day, not seven years before the last day. Good grief!
Compare scripture with scripture and they all agree, 100%. But when the man made myth of Dispensationalism hits the pages, nothing but confusion and every evil work.
*******
Both Jesus and the Apostles were all clearly post trib.
All of the early church fathers were also Post trib. Some of which were disciples of the disciples.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

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Jesus and the Apostles were clearly post trib if, but only if, you have correctly interpreted their statements.

There is absolutely no scripture anywhere that states the timing of the rapture. All positions on its timing are based on interpretation.

Most of the arguments alleging that the Bible teaches post trib are based on an assumption that the scriptures describe only one future coming of the Lord. But the scriptures contain many details about his coming that would be contradictions if He were only coming one more time.

So I would consul you to use a little care in how absolutely you state these things. You just could eventually learn that you have been mistaken.

james

q. where does the resurrection take place?
a. on earth

q. who is involved?
a. the dead in Christ and those of us who are alive at His Coming

q. with Whom do the dead in Christ come?
a. with Christ.

q. from where do they come?
a. from heaven

q. what happens when they get here?
a. Jesus changes them into the spiritual body and seizes them together
with the ones who are alive and remain unto that day
into a great cloud of witnesses

the resurrection is for the righteous, for life on earth..not for life in heaven


the dead in Christ are raised on the last day
after they leave heaven and come here with Jesus.

fact is that "the last" is used to qualify this particular day.

it is not some arbitrary day

it is the resurrection of the dead.
and that just is not a pre trib event.

the mentioning of a trump along with the time of the dead
shows that these trumps are all the same time
Mar13, 1Thes4, 1Cor15, Rev11

at the end of the trib, not the beginning, or during, or in the middle of it.

how do you reconsile a pre trib resurrection of the dead with the OT and NT scriptures?

But the scriptures contain many details about his coming that would be contradictions if He were only coming one more time.

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Ok James I'll bite on that, what are the contradictions? Of course if you have another post somewhere I'll go and look at that but maybe a little copy and paste will be easy enough so we don't get into your time to much.

zeke37 said:

james

q. where does the resurrection take place?
a. on earth

q. who is involved?
a. the dead in Christ and those of us who are alive at His Coming

q. with Whom do the dead in Christ come?
a. with Christ.

q. from where do they come?
a. from heaven

q. what happens when they get here?
a. Jesus changes them into the spiritual body and seizes them together
with the ones who are alive and remain unto that day
into a great cloud of witnesses

the resurrection is for the righteous, for life on earth..not for life in heaven


the dead in Christ are raised on the last day
after they leave heaven and come here with Jesus.

fact is that "the last" is used to qualify this particular day.

it is not some arbitrary day

it is the resurrection of the dead.
and that just is not a pre trib event.

the mentioning of a trump along with the time of the dead
shows that these trumps are all the same time
Mar13, 1Thes4, 1Cor15, Rev11

at the end of the trib, not the beginning, or during, or in the middle of it.

how do you reconsile a pre trib resurrection of the dead with the OT and NT scriptures?

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I do not "reconsile" (sic) it at all. I get it from the scriptures.

I do not know how many times I have pointed out here in this forum that the question of the timing of the rapture does not hang in the scriptures we use. Many on both sides of this debate base their ideas on the same scriptures.

The differences of opinion do not rest on differing interpretations of these scriptures, but on different interpretations about the meanings of the Greek words used in these scriptures.

If one set of assumptions about what these words mean is used, one conclusion is obvious. But if the other set of assumptions about what these same words mean, the other conclusion is obvious.

Since very few seem to have noticed this, there has been very little attention paid to the actual meaning of the Greek words used in these scriptures. Everybody just assumes that the definitions they have been taught are correct, and they conclude that anyyone who disagrees with them is denying scripture.

You have been debating with me long enough to know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that I absolutely respect the scriptures, as they were originally given to us. You know very well that I believe that every word in the Bible, as it was originally given, came directly from God. You also know that I believe that we have reasonably accurate copies of the original versions of these scriptures.

You have also been debating with me long enough to know that I am highly familiar with the scriptures in general and with the scriptures about the rapture in particular.

And you have also been debating with me long enough to know that I know how to look up the actual meanings of Greek and Hebrew words.

Does that mean I am right in this debate? NO!!! It only means that my opinions are not just formed at random, or worse yet, based on what others have taught me. Many of my views were taught to me in my younger years, but I have already rejected everything I was taught that I saw to be contrary to the scriptures. I kept only those that I saw to be taught in the scriptures. And I have added other views that I saw in the scriptures themselves, though never taught me by any man.

But my opinions are MY OPINIONS, and nothing more. Anyone who claims that others should listen to him (or her) because he (or she) is an expert, is, by that very claim, denying the absolute authority of the scriptures themselves. But in the same way, your opinions are your opinions, and nothing more.

Now in our repeated debates, you have always been basically respectful, except for a little teasing now and then, and I have generally been that way with you. So this answer is more directed toward others that are claim that views that disagree with their own basically amount to heresy.