steve_bakr
Christian
InSpiritInTruth said:
If I understand Montalban's point, it is that attributions to God being angry are human projections because God is love and he is unchanging.
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Montalban's Old Testament theory
- Thread starter Montalban
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If I understand Montalban's point, it is that attributions to God being angry are human projections because God is love and he is unchanging.
I find several flaws to your thinking (but I agree with the love your enemies)... but I wish to make this one very clear. God does not change but He has many attributes, names, etc. In your definition, if He didn't change, He would only have one name, for instance.
The Attributes of God by A.W. Pink-The Wrath of God
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I think it's fair to say we exist in God. But we are still 'real' and individuals - because Jesus came to save us.
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Absolutely. Quoting the OT verses doesn't mean that he's really angry.
There's a degree of 'literalness' that Protestants make that is not called for. For instance in Genesis it says that God breathed into Adam. To me it is sufficient to say it happened. But to take it literally it would mean that God had a mouth and lungs.
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I find several flaws to your thinking (but I agree with the love your enemies)... but I wish to make this one very clear. God does not change but He has many attributes, names, etc. In your definition, if He didn't change, He would only have one name, for instance.
[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR] The Attributes of God by A.W. Pink-The Wrath of God
Do you believe you can make God angry? If so you have a power over God.
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Nanopants
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I think we err in assuming that anger and love are opposing states of being and are mutually exclusive. Perhaps there's more depth to these things than we may realize.
Here's what we do know: Christ was fully man and fully God, and Christ both displayed and acted out of anger. We also know that God is love and that God does not change. If anger and love are different states of being, then God can't be angry. But if that's true, then Christ was not sinless, because God is perfect and is love and anything that is not love is not perfect.
It is not God that changes but the world that changes. Likewise, it was not Christ who was changing but the world that changed around Him. Christ's anger was real, but it was not that He changed: His anger was the product of the collision between God and that which opposes His nature. We produce the wrath that falls upon us, as it was said: the measure we use will be measured back to us. In other words, God's anger and His wrath are love, opposing that which opposes His nature.
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Nano pants,
We interpret Christ's action as anger, but it could be his love (and only love) appearing to us as anger. It could be our perception. X may appear in our eyes and in our minds as Y, but its nature will always be X and doesn't change.
We interpret Christ's action as anger, but it could be his love (and only love) appearing to us as anger. It could be our perception. X may appear in our eyes and in our minds as Y, but its nature will always be X and doesn't change.
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Nanopants
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In part, that's what I was saying, except that I do not believe that it is an illusion. I do not believe that Christ feigned anger. I believe that He was angry, but that anger was rooted in the essence of God, who is love.
As that applies to the topic of this thread, the nature of God could have most definitely accounted for at least some of the killings found in the OT. The idea here is not that God changed, or that men of God didn't understand God, but that God administered an equal and opposing force against an ancient world that was more evil than we may realize.
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squint
Well-Known Member
It's quite beyond denial that God renders multiple evils to evil workers.
Deuteronomy 32:41
If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
The fact that He did and does so can't logically be bypassed, even by N.T. measures:
Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Romans 2:
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
s
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InSpiritInTruth
Well-Known Member
Absolutely. Quoting the OT verses doesn't mean that he's really angry.
Please don't let a little thing like the Word of God,(which is the Truth) get in the way of your own theories.
Deuteronomy 6:15
(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.
Deuteronomy 29:20
The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.
Deuteronomy 32:16
They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
Deuteronomy 32:21
They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
Psalm 78:58
For they provoked him to anger with their high places, and moved him to jealousy with their graven images.
Zephaniah 3:8
Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
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Nanopants
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But, let's not forget that the essence of God was hidden in the OT: it was veiled. It's not through God's wrath and anger that we may come to know who God is, it's through the sacrifice of Christ that the veil is torn (which was symbolic of Christ's flesh according to Paul).
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Absolutely. Quoting the OT verses doesn't mean that he's really angry.
Please don't let a little thing like the Word of God,(which is the Truth) get in the way of your own theories.
Deuteronomy 6:15
(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.
Deuteronomy 29:20
The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.
Deuteronomy 32:16
They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
Deuteronomy 32:21
They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
Psalm 78:58
For they provoked him to anger with their high places, and moved him to jealousy with their graven images.
Zephaniah 3:8
Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
Posting random bible verses is not a discussion.
If you believe you can literally make God angry then you've given yourself a power over God
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Nanopants
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I think it's more likely that God's anger is His power over us. We can't overpower God, He overpowers us. If He didn't then we could say that we have power over God, such that we can do whatever we want and get away with it.
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InSpiritInTruth
Well-Known Member
If the Word of God was hidden, it was hidden from those who were lost. Because of man's own disbelief in God's Word their minds were covered up and darkened by the veil of the flesh. This veil of flesh, is the carnal mind of man that strives against the Spirit of God.
When a man is born again in Christ by way of the Holy Spirit,that veil is then removed.
But make no mistake about it, Jesus Christ is the very Word of God, and to refuse to listen to the written Word of God is also to refuse Jesus Christ; and to refuse Jesus is also to refuse the Father.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
I would advise all men to base their ideas on the Word of God, and not on some man-made theories.
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InSpiritInTruth
Well-Known Member
It is the evil and rebellious nature in man that refuses to listen to the Word of God that has provoked the Lord to anger.
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Philothei
Love never fails
Does God indeed has anger like a human? Does God has a need from us that He NEEDS to fullfill? If God needs us to be "whole" then He is God or a god? God is indeed NOT dependant on us. rather we are in Him. So also if God is love then how can be be angry and hateful? That would be a contradiction indeed... For God cannot be all love and all hate at the same time..Just maybe but never hateful.
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Philothei
Love never fails
God is indeed a jealous God no doubt about this but is God a "mad" "angry" God? Does His wrath lasts for ever? We have to look into this further and juxtapose the verses not only compare them... God does indeed is "long to anger" (it is in the psalms) and he is also "merciful" (in the psalms) so we have to be consistant here and all encomposing to not let ONLY few verses tell us about God. We do not know everything about God since if we did indeed we would not be able to handle it...Our limited understanding about Him gives us sometimes a biased opinion about Him. Christ did revealed His Father in ways that the OT does not... It is a more direct account of who God is and how we should relate to Him. Christ told us that God is merciful and God is just. Also John told us that God is love. Christ talked to us about the forgiveness of the prodigal son and how the "father" forgives His children. Yes he is a jealous God but also a "long suffering" and "slow to anger" Fervent prayer is one of our tools to reach out to His mercy and grace. And indeed ling in communion with God and others. If God had anger and hate towards men then why would he sent his only Son to save it? He would just decide to alienate everyone from Heaven as "there is no man who has lived and not sinned" so bottom line no one is worthy of heavenAbsolutely. Quoting the OT verses doesn't mean that he's really angry.
Please don't let a little thing like the Word of God,(which is the Truth) get in the way of your own theories.
Deuteronomy 6:15
(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.
Deuteronomy 29:20
The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.
Deuteronomy 32:16
They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
Deuteronomy 32:21
They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
Psalm 78:58
For they provoked him to anger with their high places, and moved him to jealousy with their graven images.
Zephaniah 3:8
Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
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I've never quite understood this notion that God is this totally immutable passive thing from the Orthodox perspective. It seems to undo a lot of early interpretations by the fathers and seems to go directly against the theology of St. Gregory Palamas who adamantly proclaims that God's actions in creation (and particularly in salvation history) are real and not just formal and at the mercy of subjective (mis)interpretation for their actuality.
At that point you might as well just equate God with the neoplatonic monad and call it a day.
At the same time I'm not saying that God is or isn't defined by passibility or impassible; He is beyond the negation or affirmation of either of those essentially.
Then again, I seem to be contradicting the other Orthodox here, so don't mind me.
At that point you might as well just equate God with the neoplatonic monad and call it a day.
At the same time I'm not saying that God is or isn't defined by passibility or impassible; He is beyond the negation or affirmation of either of those essentially.
Then again, I seem to be contradicting the other Orthodox here, so don't mind me.
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