Montalban's Old Testament theory

Montalban · Jan 28, 2012

God bestows His mercy equally on all. "For He makes the sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust" (Matthew 5:45)

steve_bakr said:
And thus, evil has no positive existence. It is a negative existence, since it only occurs in the absence of God's light. Men blind themselves to the light of God, and this is how evil occurs, just as you are describing it.

Without sounding corny, that's the power of love.

Some point to where God hardens people's hearts.

This firstly suggests a cruel God - one who makes people disobey him, then punishes them.

Secondly is a misunderstanding of our own 'will' in this matter.

God is love (1 John 4:8). He does not change (Hebrews 13:8). He never angers. He eternally loves. When we refer to God's anger it is how we react to His love. We describe it as anger as an anthropomorphism - using a human characteristic to describe God.

"God is the sun of justice, as it is written, who shines rays of goodness on simply everyone. The soul develops according it its free will into either wax because of its love for God or into mud because of its love of matter. Thus just as by nature the mud is dried out by the sun and wax is automatically softened, so also every soul which loves matter and the world and has fixed its mind from God is hardened as mud according to its free will and by itself advances to its perdition, as did Pharaoh. However, every soul which loves God is softened as wax, and receiving divine impressions and characters it becomes 'the dwelling place of God in the Spirit'
- St. Maximus the Confessor, Chapters on Knowledge 1:12 (quoted in Carlton, C (1999) "The Truth: What Every Roman Catholic Should Know about the Orthodox Church", (Regina Orthodox Press), pp94-5)

steve_bakr · Jan 28, 2012

Montalban said:
God bestows His mercy equally on all. "For He makes the sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust" (Matthew 5:45)

Without sounding corny, that's the power of love.

Some point to where God hardens people's hearts.

This firstly suggests a cruel God - one who makes people disobey him, then punishes them.

Secondly is a misunderstanding of our own 'will' in this matter.

God is love (1 John 4:8). He does not change (Hebrews 13:8). He never angers. He eternally loves. When we refer to God's anger it is how we react to His love. We describe it as anger as an anthropomorphism - using a human characteristic to describe God.

"God is the sun of justice, as it is written, who shines rays of goodness on simply everyone. The soul develops according it its free will into either wax because of its love for God or into mud because of its love of matter. Thus just as by nature the mud is dried out by the sun and wax is automatically softened, so also every soul which loves matter and the world and has fixed its mind from God is hardened as mud according to its free will and by itself advances to its perdition, as did Pharaoh. However, every soul which loves God is softened as wax, and receiving divine impressions and characters it becomes 'the dwelling place of God in the Spirit'
- St. Maximus the Confessor, Chapters on Knowledge 1:12 (quoted in Carlton, C (1999) "The Truth: What Every Roman Catholic Should Know about the Orthodox Church", (Regina Orthodox Press), pp94-5)

We might consider that, if evil--being the absence of God's light--has no positive existence, then good, insofar as it exists, is a reflection of God's light. We might further conclude that we only exist insofar as we are a reflection of God's light. Further, since God is that light that all existent beings reflect, each according to their capacity and will to do so--then the only True Existence is God.

Montalban · Jan 28, 2012

steve_bakr said:
We might consider that, if evil--being the absence of God's light--has no positive existence, then good, insofar as it exists, is a reflection of God's light. We might further conclude that we only exist insofar as we are a reflection of God's light. Further, since God is that light that all existent beings reflect, each according to their capacity and will to do so--then the only True Existence is God.

I believe this is why it's true to say that nothing good comes except that which is from God.

Nanopants · Jan 28, 2012

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God. -Mark 10:18

But, there is more on the other side of the fence aside from absence of good.

For your obedience is come abroad unto all [men]. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil. And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen. -Rom 16:19,20

And that, in essence, is what I believe that the Spirit of God guided men like David to do, in a blunt manner concerning those who chose the powers which exist in darkness and not God. Perhaps the situation called for it.

InSpiritInTruth · Jan 28, 2012

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. :bow:

Montalban · Jan 29, 2012

InSpiritInTruth said:
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I don't believe God literally creates evil, else God is evil.

InSpiritInTruth · Jan 29, 2012

Montalban said:
I don't believe God literally creates evil, else God is evil.

To create evil to punish the wicked is righteous indignation. It does not make God evil to punish the wicked.

Nanopants · Jan 29, 2012

Look at the usage of the word "evil" here. It's presented as the polar opposite of "peace". So it would seem that it means war, or strife, not necessarily moral evil.

steve_bakr · Jan 29, 2012

Nanopants said:
Look at the usage of the word "evil" here. It's presented as the polar opposite of "peace". So it would seem that it means war, or strife, not necessarily moral evil.

Evil is the absence of good.

Nanopants · Jan 29, 2012

steve_bakr said:
Evil is the absence of good.

I agree with that. I'm just commenting on the usage of the word in isaiah 45:7. The KJV uses the word "calamity", which seems to be more accurate.

Pythons · Jan 29, 2012

Montalban said:
I hope this isn't just my theory:

People who cite the OT to try to embarrass me with regards past massacres, treatment of women, slaves, etc. are to me one massive straw-man.

I do not believe God literally has called people to kill others.

I base this on the belief that God is God.

To be God, he doesn't change.

To not change means he doesn't get angry.

Anger is to change from one state to another.

It's further preposterous to me that I can make God anger. I have no power over God. I have no influence over God.

God is love.

He's never changed from that.

What does change is our distancing ourselves from God which we sometimes express in terms of "God gets angry", etc.

God's message to the Jews was misunderstood.

If it were understood correctly we'd all be Jews.

When Jesus came along not only did he give us the 'real' message, but he in his being demonstrated how a Christian should try to live his life.

By 'real' message I can instance times such as when Jesus talks of "love thy neighbour"

He contrasts his message with Leviticus 19:18

He compares what the Jews know with what is meant to be...

Matthew 5:43 You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Divine Impassability. Impressive post Montalban.

eachallberg · Jan 29, 2012

Montalban said:
...God's message to the Jews was misunderstood.

If it were understood correctly we'd all be Jews...

Please be more specific is God's message to the Jews the law of Moses?
(If its God's law, its technically Christ's law because God is perfect.)
Assuming your talking about the law of Moses...

No and no.
It wasn't misunderstood, it was lacking, complex and brought death.
Jesus summed up, and filled in the gaps of Mose's law. Christ's law brings life.
The thing about us being Jews is over stretched.

Peace.

Nanopants · Jan 29, 2012

But if God is impassible, then God is more of an impersonal force than a Creator that interacts with His creation. Or is that not what impassibility implies?

And what about Paul's words about "grieving the Spirit"? Was Paul wrong, being less advanced than Augustine, or what?

The scriptures clearly state that God does not change:

For I [am] the LORD, I do not change; -Mal 3:6

But if we assume that it means God does not change state, we have a problem...

Jesus Christ [is] the same yesterday, today, and forever. -Heb 13:8

And because we know Christ walked this earth in the flesh, we know that He did change state: He did become angry, He did suffer and He was tempted. Unless we want to say some things about Christ that I don't think are allowed in this forum, I don't see how we can get around that fact.

So if we say that Christ never changed, it must not refer to His capacity to change state. I think it's much more reasonable to assume that God, being eternal, is not subject to decay, neither can He progress because perfection cannot be improved, nor can He stumble. God doesn't change because He cannot be overcome.

Montalban · Jan 29, 2012

eachallberg said:
Please be more specific is God's message to the Jews the law of Moses?
(If its God's law, its technically Christ's law because God is perfect.)
Assuming your talking about the law of Moses...

No and no.
It wasn't misunderstood, it was lacking, complex and brought death.
Jesus summed up, and filled in the gaps of Mose's law. Christ's law brings life.
The thing about us being Jews is over stretched.

Peace.

God is perfect. But it's impossible to know God fully, because we are imperfect.

That doesn't mean that God is less perfect because we, his creation aren't perfect.

On the issue of Mossaic Law, if it was God's will for all time it would have been given to Adam.

Jesus himself states that the Sabbath (as an e.g.) was made for man, not for God.

Montalban · Jan 29, 2012

Nanopants said:
But if God is impassible, then God is more of an impersonal force than a Creator that interacts with His creation. Or is that not what impassibility implies?

And what about Paul's words about "grieving the Spirit"? Was Paul wrong, being less advanced than Augustine, or what?

Ultimately God is unknowable.

It's a paradox. God is known, through Jesus as Man, but ultimately unknowable - because that's the nature of God - his scope is vastly beyond our comprehension

Noxot · Jan 29, 2012

I could not agree that you do not exist just by being lack of God, since God is "more" than we are then how is it that I could undo what God has made? then why would God change and allow some of His creatures to not exist when He Himself exist and evil is nothing more than a temporary lack of Him and He created things to exist which means that He did not create His creatures to not exist?

why would God make some creation to not be when if the theory holds true that says that God created all things "very good"?

so then since evil is already known to not be forever, since it is the lack of that which is forever, how is it that God would be said to create some of His creatures to not exist forever when that would not be in the image of God at all? or is it in the image of God to undo that which He had made when all I keep hearing about is that Jesus is life and ectect.

also I can argue that satan still exist even though he is not in the image of Christ (satan did not even know who Jesus really was). people exist even though they do not know or do what the Holy Spirit says. to me it seems that the Father is called the Father for a reason. He is the Father that made us and so we are.

someone please convince me otherwise because I do not want to have ever been created by God and I know He has the power to not make me ever too. I always thought that Love would win in the end even if I do not want it to atm ( i.e. I think Love would change my mind and heal me one day ). so can someone prove that God will give us the option to not be made by Him? because I started to exist when God spoke it but I desire for God to change His mind about me. if God deletes me would that mean that He failed to make me "very good"?

Rick Otto · Jan 29, 2012

fatalistic ultimism?
eternal seperation anxiety?
I don't try to comletely eliminate self-doubt. It isn't possible & it takes my focus off of what I can be eternaly (ultimately) secure in.

steve_bakr · Jan 29, 2012

Noxot said:
I could not agree that you do not exist just by being lack of God, since God is "more" than we are then how is it that I could undo what God has made? then why would God change and allow some of His creatures to not exist when He Himself exist and evil is nothing more than a temporary lack of Him and He created things to exist which means that He did not create His creatures to not exist?

why would God make some creation to not be when if the theory holds true that says that God created all things "very good"?

so then since evil is already known to not be forever, since it is the lack of that which is forever, how is it that God would be said to create some of His creatures to not exist forever when that would not be in the image of God at all? or is it in the image of God to undo that which He had made when all I keep hearing about is that Jesus is life and ectect.

also I can argue that satan still exist even though he is not in the image of Christ (satan did not even know who Jesus really was). people exist even though they do not know or do what the Holy Spirit says. to me it seems that the Father is called the Father for a reason. He is the Father that made us and so we are.

someone please convince me otherwise because I do not want to have ever been created by God and I know He has the power to not make me ever too. I always thought that Love would win in the end even if I do not want it to atm. so can someone prove that God will give us the option to not be made by Him? because I started to exist when God spoke it but I desire for God to change His mind about me.

People reflect the light of God in various capacities: some more brightly and others dimly. But none can be said to have real existence who are completely without God's light. There is no real existence independent of God, because in God all things subsist.

Noxot · Jan 29, 2012

steve_bakr said:
People reflect the light of God in various capacities: some more brightly and others dimly. But none can be said to have real existence who are completely without God's light. There is no real existence independent of God, because in God all things subsist.

imo, you are confusing "light" with "existing" I believe them to have different meanings. I do not want to derail this thread even more so I will try to think of how to make a new one here. but one last point i can make is that there is both a light and a thing that can or can not reflect the light.

if you want then please continue this conversation in the thread I made about Gods character and not existing.

InSpiritInTruth · Jan 29, 2012

Montalban said:
I hope this isn't just my theory:

People who cite the OT to try to embarrass me with regards past massacres, treatment of women, slaves, etc. are to me one massive straw-man.

I do not believe God literally has called people to kill others.

I base this on the belief that God is God.

To be God, he doesn't change.

To not change means he doesn't get angry.

Anger is to change from one state to another.

It's further preposterous to me that I can make God anger. I have no power over God. I have no influence over God.

God is love.

He's never changed from that.

What does change is our distancing ourselves from God which we sometimes express in terms of "God gets angry", etc.

God's message to the Jews was misunderstood.

If it were understood correctly we'd all be Jews.

When Jesus came along not only did he give us the 'real' message, but he in his being demonstrated how a Christian should try to live his life.

By 'real' message I can instance times such as when Jesus talks of "love thy neighbour"

He contrasts his message with Leviticus 19:18

He compares what the Jews know with what is meant to be...

Matthew 5:43 You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

God does not change, but God does have emotions, and does get angry as the scriptures plainly show. Just as God's anger is justified. And yes you can make God angry.

Numbers 11:1
And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.

Numbers 32:13
And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.
Jeremiah 49:37
For I will cause Elam to be dismayed before their enemies, and before them that seek their life: and I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the LORD; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them:

Ezekiel 43:8
In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.

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